M15 Rudder Lifting Mechanism
Does anyone have a diagram that shows the mechanics of the lifting mechanism used on the M15 rudder? It has been about 10 years since I've seen one in operation, but recall thinking it to be an engineering marvel.
Do you have a rudder, our are you wanting to build one from scratch? :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner On Apr 2, 2015 6:49 AM, "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
Does anyone have a diagram that shows the mechanics of the lifting mechanism used on the M15 rudder?
It has been about 10 years since I've seen one in operation, but recall thinking it to be an engineering marvel.
Building a kick up rudder from scratch, but for a different boat. The design has a hold down line in the front......and a lifting eye and line in the back, but that means two lines running through and attached to the rudder head. Yes it would work, but is butt ugly and a jumble of lines to foul things. On Apr 2, 2015, at 8:34 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Do you have a rudder, our are you wanting to build one from scratch?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner On Apr 2, 2015 6:49 AM, "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
Does anyone have a diagram that shows the mechanics of the lifting mechanism used on the M15 rudder?
It has been about 10 years since I've seen one in operation, but recall thinking it to be an engineering marvel.
So you don't have an M15 rudder to look at? Asking as I need to know how much detail to provide you. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner Building a kick up rudder from scratch, but for a different boat. The design has a hold down line in the front......and a lifting eye and line in the back, but that means two lines running through and attached to the rudder head. Yes it would work, but is butt ugly and a jumble of lines to foul things. On Apr 2, 2015, at 8:34 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Do you have a rudder, our are you wanting to build one from scratch?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner On Apr 2, 2015 6:49 AM, "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
Does anyone have a diagram that shows the mechanics of the lifting mechanism used on the M15 rudder?
It has been about 10 years since I've seen one in operation, but recall thinking it to be an engineering marvel.
No rudder to look at. You can send it to me off the list if you prefer. On Apr 2, 2015, at 8:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
So you don't have an M15 rudder to look at? Asking as I need to know how much detail to provide you.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner Building a kick up rudder from scratch, but for a different boat.
The design has a hold down line in the front......and a lifting eye and line in the back, but that means two lines running through and attached to the rudder head. Yes it would work, but is butt ugly and a jumble of lines to foul things.
On Apr 2, 2015, at 8:34 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Do you have a rudder, our are you wanting to build one from scratch?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner On Apr 2, 2015 6:49 AM, "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
Does anyone have a diagram that shows the mechanics of the lifting mechanism used on the M15 rudder?
It has been about 10 years since I've seen one in operation, but recall thinking it to be an engineering marvel.
Howard: i'll put together the details and share with the group ... best this stuff is 'out there' for everyone to better understand the Jerry Montgomery designs. the simple description is the pushrod inside the rudder cheeks, connects the tiller to the rudder, does all the work. the bungee cord only holds the tiller in the horizontal position and 'locking' the rudder up or down. take off the bungee cord the kickup function still works ... though the rudder will not stay in the up position. to set up the system one needs to 'play a bit' with the exact location where the pushrod attaches to rudder&tiller and the pushrod's length. give me a couple of weeks to put together details. i'm leaving for the Strictly Sail Pacific boat show on Saturday, be at Jack London Square, Oakland, CA, from the evening of the 6th through the morning of the 13th (the show is 9-12 April '15). are you in San Fran Howard? (trying to remember and can't place where you are located.) if in San Fran. come to the show, I can get you a ticket, and I can show you the rudder setup in person. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
No rudder to look at.
You can send it to me off the list if you prefer.
On Apr 2, 2015, at 8:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
So you don't have an M15 rudder to look at? Asking as I need to know how much detail to provide you.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner Building a kick up rudder from scratch, but for a different boat.
The design has a hold down line in the front......and a lifting eye and line in the back, but that means two lines running through and attached to the rudder head. Yes it would work, but is butt ugly and a jumble of lines to foul things.
On Apr 2, 2015, at 8:34 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Do you have a rudder, our are you wanting to build one from scratch?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner On Apr 2, 2015 6:49 AM, "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
Does anyone have a diagram that shows the mechanics of the lifting mechanism used on the M15 rudder?
It has been about 10 years since I've seen one in operation, but recall thinking it to be an engineering marvel.
I am in Missouri. I was in San Fran once, but didn't lose anything there and never felt the need to go back. : ) Can this design be scaled up (assuming you also beef it up)? If it worked, I attached a photo of the rudder. It has a chord length fore and aft of around 20", is about 46" from top to bottom and will finish just under 2" thick. Tiller is almost 6' long. If the photo didn't make the trip, I'll post a link to it in photobucket.
Howard: Picture came though. The Sage 17 rudder about 48" by 10". about three feet of length is in the water. the remainder is in the cheeks. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
I am in Missouri. I was in San Fran once, but didn't lose anything there and never felt the need to go back. : )
Can this design be scaled up (assuming you also beef it up)?
If it worked, I attached a photo of the rudder. It has a chord length fore and aft of around 20", is about 46" from top to bottom and will finish just under 2" thick. Tiller is almost 6' long.
If the photo didn't make the trip, I'll post a link to it in photobucket.
Is the Sage 17 rudder made of wood, glass or composite? If wood, does it need to be weighted to overcome the buoyancy to keep it from wanting to pop up. I would think the downhaul to be more important than the need to lock it up into place. If down and released, a wooden rudder would likely pop up on its own. One of the more interesting rodeos I've had with my M17 was trying to install the rudder with the boat in the water. Getting that pin slipped into place with the rudder wanting to go anywhere but down was a struggle. On Apr 2, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Howard:
Picture came though.
The Sage 17 rudder about 48" by 10". about three feet of length is in the water. the remainder is in the cheeks.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
I am in Missouri. I was in San Fran once, but didn't lose anything there and never felt the need to go back. : )
Can this design be scaled up (assuming you also beef it up)?
If it worked, I attached a photo of the rudder. It has a chord length fore and aft of around 20", is about 46" from top to bottom and will finish just under 2" thick. Tiller is almost 6' long.
If the photo didn't make the trip, I'll post a link to it in photobucket.
Howard: the Sage 17 rudder is mahogany. gorgeous bit of wood made by John at JOWoodworks. the tiller locks the rudder in the up, or down, position by way of the bungee cord. there is no 'mechanical 'lock'. anything striking the leading edge of the rudder will cause it to move up and out of the way. i've never experienced a problem with the rudder coming up unwanted while the boat is underway (on M15 nor S17). this video may assist in seeing the rudder movement 'in action' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3x_287RdxU I agree ... makes one a bit nervous installing the stock M17 rudder in the water for worry of loosing the rod or the cotter keys to Poseidon. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 9:39 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
Is the Sage 17 rudder made of wood, glass or composite?
If wood, does it need to be weighted to overcome the buoyancy to keep it from wanting to pop up. I would think the downhaul to be more important than the need to lock it up into place. If down and released, a wooden rudder would likely pop up on its own.
One of the more interesting rodeos I've had with my M17 was trying to install the rudder with the boat in the water. Getting that pin slipped into place with the rudder wanting to go anywhere but down was a struggle.
The Sage 17 rudder is wood, like the M rudders. The blade is held up (oir down) by the tension coming from bungee cord (see previous post). -----Original Message----- From: Howard Audsley Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 8:39 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 Rudder Lifting Mechanism Is the Sage 17 rudder made of wood, glass or composite? If wood, does it need to be weighted to overcome the buoyancy to keep it from wanting to pop up. I would think the downhaul to be more important than the need to lock it up into place. If down and released, a wooden rudder would likely pop up on its own. One of the more interesting rodeos I've had with my M17 was trying to install the rudder with the boat in the water. Getting that pin slipped into place with the rudder wanting to go anywhere but down was a struggle. On Apr 2, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Howard:
Picture came though.
The Sage 17 rudder about 48" by 10". about three feet of length is in the water. the remainder is in the cheeks.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
I am in Missouri. I was in San Fran once, but didn't lose anything there and never felt the need to go back. : )
Can this design be scaled up (assuming you also beef it up)?
If it worked, I attached a photo of the rudder. It has a chord length fore and aft of around 20", is about 46" from top to bottom and will finish just under 2" thick. Tiller is almost 6' long.
If the photo didn't make the trip, I'll post a link to it in photobucket.
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 6470 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
So jerry, why didn't you do this kind of lifting mech. on the M17s? All the stock M17 rudders I'm familiar with lift on a bronze rod. Or did I miss something? t On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 5:31 PM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
The Sage 17 rudder is wood, like the M rudders. The blade is held up (oir down) by the tension coming from bungee cord (see previous post).
-----Original Message----- From: Howard Audsley Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 8:39 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 Rudder Lifting Mechanism
Is the Sage 17 rudder made of wood, glass or composite?
If wood, does it need to be weighted to overcome the buoyancy to keep it from wanting to pop up. I would think the downhaul to be more important than the need to lock it up into place. If down and released, a wooden rudder would likely pop up on its own.
One of the more interesting rodeos I've had with my M17 was trying to install the rudder with the boat in the water. Getting that pin slipped into place with the rudder wanting to go anywhere but down was a struggle.
On Apr 2, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Howard:
Picture came though.
The Sage 17 rudder about 48" by 10". about three feet of length is in the water. the remainder is in the cheeks.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
I am in Missouri. I was in San Fran once, but didn't lose anything there and never felt the need to go back. : )
Can this design be scaled up (assuming you also beef it up)?
If it worked, I attached a photo of the rudder. It has a chord length fore and aft of around 20", is about 46" from top to bottom and will finish just under 2" thick. Tiller is almost 6' long.
If the photo didn't make the trip, I'll post a link to it in photobucket.
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 6470 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
Because we hadn't come in contact with it when we tooled the 17. Lyle Hess designe3d the 17 setup, but remember that the 17 was originally a fixed keel boat. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Smith Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2015 6:11 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 Rudder Lifting Mechanism So jerry, why didn't you do this kind of lifting mech. on the M17s? All the stock M17 rudders I'm familiar with lift on a bronze rod. Or did I miss something? t On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 5:31 PM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
The Sage 17 rudder is wood, like the M rudders. The blade is held up (oir down) by the tension coming from bungee cord (see previous post).
-----Original Message----- From: Howard Audsley Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 8:39 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 Rudder Lifting Mechanism
Is the Sage 17 rudder made of wood, glass or composite?
If wood, does it need to be weighted to overcome the buoyancy to keep it from wanting to pop up. I would think the downhaul to be more important than the need to lock it up into place. If down and released, a wooden rudder would likely pop up on its own.
One of the more interesting rodeos I've had with my M17 was trying to install the rudder with the boat in the water. Getting that pin slipped into place with the rudder wanting to go anywhere but down was a struggle.
On Apr 2, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Howard:
Picture came though.
The Sage 17 rudder about 48" by 10". about three feet of length is in the water. the remainder is in the cheeks.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
I am in Missouri. I was in San Fran once, but didn't lose anything there and never felt the need to go back. : )
Can this design be scaled up (assuming you also beef it up)?
If it worked, I attached a photo of the rudder. It has a chord length fore and aft of around 20", is about 46" from top to bottom and will finish just under 2" thick. Tiller is almost 6' long.
If the photo didn't make the trip, I'll post a link to it in photobucket.
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 6470 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
I'm also curious about the thinking on the strength of kick up rudders in general. Once upon a time, a lot of folks seemed to think rudders needed to be supported with gudgeons top to bottom and resembled barn doors. Then spade rudders like the M17 one piece started being use.......and they seemed strong enough, except in a severe grounding, when either the pin gets bent, gudgeons get pulled out or both. And now these kick up rudders, which are only held by one bolt through a couple rudder cheeks. Have there been any failures with these or are the proving strong enough? Obviously if they ground, they kick up but will they stand up to the side stresses of a rudder loaded up from weather helm? On Apr 4, 2015, at 8:11 PM, Tom Smith wrote:
So jerry, why didn't you do this kind of lifting mech. on the M17s? All the stock M17 rudders I'm familiar with lift on a bronze rod. Or did I miss something? t
Yeah, Dave, by all means publish the details of that rudder. I have modified an old IDA rudder with fore and aft lines to raise and lower the blade but I would like to be rid of those! If possible. Also, the IDA wieghs about 50 pounds! Was wondering if I could cut holes in the upper section which is high density plastic to lighten the whole thing without inducing twist along the vertical rudder axis while steering the boat with the tiller. Have any thoughts on that? Tom B On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Howard:
i'll put together the details and share with the group ... best this stuff is 'out there' for everyone to better understand the Jerry Montgomery designs.
the simple description is the pushrod inside the rudder cheeks, connects the tiller to the rudder, does all the work. the bungee cord only holds the tiller in the horizontal position and 'locking' the rudder up or down. take off the bungee cord the kickup function still works ... though the rudder will not stay in the up position. to set up the system one needs to 'play a bit' with the exact location where the pushrod attaches to rudder&tiller and the pushrod's length.
give me a couple of weeks to put together details. i'm leaving for the Strictly Sail Pacific boat show on Saturday, be at Jack London Square, Oakland, CA, from the evening of the 6th through the morning of the 13th (the show is 9-12 April '15).
are you in San Fran Howard? (trying to remember and can't place where you are located.) if in San Fran. come to the show, I can get you a ticket, and I can show you the rudder setup in person.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
No rudder to look at.
You can send it to me off the list if you prefer.
On Apr 2, 2015, at 8:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
So you don't have an M15 rudder to look at? Asking as I need to know how much detail to provide you.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner Building a kick up rudder from scratch, but for a different boat.
The design has a hold down line in the front......and a lifting eye and line in the back, but that means two lines running through and attached to the rudder head. Yes it would work, but is butt ugly and a jumble of lines to foul things.
On Apr 2, 2015, at 8:34 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Do you have a rudder, our are you wanting to build one from scratch?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner On Apr 2, 2015 6:49 AM, "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
Does anyone have a diagram that shows the mechanics of the lifting mechanism used on the M15 rudder?
It has been about 10 years since I've seen one in operation, but
recall
thinking it to be an engineering marvel.
I recommend you call Ruddercraft Tom. After an M17 broke a Ruddercraft rudder last week talking to them about the strength would be best. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, Dave, by all means publish the details of that rudder. I have modified an old IDA rudder with fore and aft lines to raise and lower the blade but I would like to be rid of those! If possible. Also, the IDA wieghs about 50 pounds! Was wondering if I could cut holes in the upper section which is high density plastic to lighten the whole thing without inducing twist along the vertical rudder axis while steering the boat with the tiller. Have any thoughts on that? Tom B
Good idea, Dave. Thanks. On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
I recommend you call Ruddercraft Tom.
After an M17 broke a Ruddercraft rudder last week talking to them about the strength would be best.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, Dave, by all means publish the details of that rudder. I have modified an old IDA rudder with fore and aft lines to raise and lower the blade but I would like to be rid of those! If possible. Also, the IDA wieghs about 50 pounds! Was wondering if I could cut holes in the upper section which is high density plastic to lighten the whole thing without inducing twist along the vertical rudder axis while steering the boat with the tiller. Have any thoughts on that? Tom B
It ain't easy, Howard, but it's the same principle we used on the Sage 17 and will use on the SageCat. it's basically a pushrod that works off the tiller, and connects to the rudder with a toggle that has to be the same distance off the tiller whether the rudder is up or down. A bungee keeps down-tension on the tiller which holds the rudder blade either up or down, and the momentum of the blade moves it past the hi spot when you lift up smartly and then push down on the tiller. Maybe Dave will post a pix of the Sage setup, or maybe one of Sal's M-15. Or both. The biggest problem is setting the bolts for the pintles so that they don't interfere with the rod moving. This is hard to explain but you can see it in the pix. A couple of the bolts need to be flat head machine screws, with the nuts on the outside, and for sure use Nylock nuts. We use 1/4-20 screws and bolts in the Sage, but if it's a much bigger and heavier boat don't hesitate to go bigger. There has never been a failure that I know of with this setup in nearly 500 M-15's that I made in addition to the 30 or so Sages, and the few complaints have been that you can't raise the tiller to tack when you have a crowded cockpit, which is a very small price to pay for a brilliant setup. Ron Holder and I first saw the setup on a big catamaran- my memory fails me- and stole the idea with their permission. They stole the idea with permission from a home-made boat they saw in England. A few years ago I bought a hundred-dollar junked-out Banshee, which is a 14' planing singlehander, and used the same mechanics to make a rudder. I haven't used it yet because I set the project aside when I started on the SageCat project so it's stuffed in my garage. I'll get it together when I finish the new Sage and I'll show them young Banshee punks how to sail. You bet. Good luck! Jerry -----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 6:34 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 Rudder Lifting Mechanism Do you have a rudder, our are you wanting to build one from scratch? :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner On Apr 2, 2015 6:49 AM, "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
Does anyone have a diagram that shows the mechanics of the lifting mechanism used on the M15 rudder?
It has been about 10 years since I've seen one in operation, but recall thinking it to be an engineering marvel.
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 6250 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
Jerry, On another subject, can you tell me the optimum height above the base of the mast to mount a fixed gooseneck on a 1979 M17? Stock boom, stock mast, OEM spec sails, main luff 19'. I can't raise the mast to check distances/clearance until the boat is in the water (too many overhanging tree branches in my yard) but I would like to get the gooseneck installed before then. Thanks! Henry On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 10:12 AM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
It ain't easy, Howard, but it's the same principle we used on the Sage 17 and will use on the SageCat. it's basically a pushrod that works off the tiller, and connects to the rudder with a toggle that has to be the same distance off the tiller whether the rudder is up or down. A bungee keeps down-tension on the tiller which holds the rudder blade either up or down, and the momentum of the blade moves it past the hi spot when you lift up smartly and then push down on the tiller. Maybe Dave will post a pix of the Sage setup, or maybe one of Sal's M-15. Or both. The biggest problem is setting the bolts for the pintles so that they don't interfere with the rod moving. This is hard to explain but you can see it in the pix. A couple of the bolts need to be flat head machine screws, with the nuts on the outside, and for sure use Nylock nuts. We use 1/4-20 screws and bolts in the Sage, but if it's a much bigger and heavier boat don't hesitate to go bigger. There has never been a failure that I know of with this setup in nearly 500 M-15's that I made in addition to the 30 or so Sages, and the few complaints have been that you can't raise the tiller to tack when you have a crowded cockpit, which is a very small price to pay for a brilliant setup. Ron Holder and I first saw the setup on a big catamaran- my memory fails me- and stole the idea with their permission. They stole the idea with permission from a home-made boat they saw in England.
A few years ago I bought a hundred-dollar junked-out Banshee, which is a 14' planing singlehander, and used the same mechanics to make a rudder. I haven't used it yet because I set the project aside when I started on the SageCat project so it's stuffed in my garage. I'll get it together when I finish the new Sage and I'll show them young Banshee punks how to sail. You bet.
Good luck!
Jerry
-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 6:34 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 Rudder Lifting Mechanism
Do you have a rudder, our are you wanting to build one from scratch?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner On Apr 2, 2015 6:49 AM, "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
Does anyone have a diagram that shows the mechanics of the lifting mechanism used on the M15 rudder?
It has been about 10 years since I've seen one in operation, but recall thinking it to be an engineering marvel.
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 6250 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
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-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
Sounds like a fun project, Jerry. Really curious at to the mechanics of it. "Always a better idea". On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 10:12 AM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
It ain't easy, Howard, but it's the same principle we used on the Sage 17 and will use on the SageCat. it's basically a pushrod that works off the tiller, and connects to the rudder with a toggle that has to be the same distance off the tiller whether the rudder is up or down. A bungee keeps down-tension on the tiller which holds the rudder blade either up or down, and the momentum of the blade moves it past the hi spot when you lift up smartly and then push down on the tiller. Maybe Dave will post a pix of the Sage setup, or maybe one of Sal's M-15. Or both. The biggest problem is setting the bolts for the pintles so that they don't interfere with the rod moving. This is hard to explain but you can see it in the pix. A couple of the bolts need to be flat head machine screws, with the nuts on the outside, and for sure use Nylock nuts. We use 1/4-20 screws and bolts in the Sage, but if it's a much bigger and heavier boat don't hesitate to go bigger. There has never been a failure that I know of with this setup in nearly 500 M-15's that I made in addition to the 30 or so Sages, and the few complaints have been that you can't raise the tiller to tack when you have a crowded cockpit, which is a very small price to pay for a brilliant setup. Ron Holder and I first saw the setup on a big catamaran- my memory fails me- and stole the idea with their permission. They stole the idea with permission from a home-made boat they saw in England.
A few years ago I bought a hundred-dollar junked-out Banshee, which is a 14' planing singlehander, and used the same mechanics to make a rudder. I haven't used it yet because I set the project aside when I started on the SageCat project so it's stuffed in my garage. I'll get it together when I finish the new Sage and I'll show them young Banshee punks how to sail. You bet.
Good luck!
Jerry
-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 6:34 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 Rudder Lifting Mechanism
Do you have a rudder, our are you wanting to build one from scratch?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner On Apr 2, 2015 6:49 AM, "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
Does anyone have a diagram that shows the mechanics of the lifting mechanism used on the M15 rudder?
It has been about 10 years since I've seen one in operation, but recall thinking it to be an engineering marvel.
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I had the lifting apparatus removed from my M-15 rudder nearly 25 years because was tired of popping it up when I tugged the handle a bit harder than I needed. I continue to sail my M-15 many years later with the rudder always down and have not had any problem in that regard. Steve M-15 # 335 ----- Original Message ----- From: <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 8:12 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 Rudder Lifting Mechanism It ain't easy, Howard, but it's the same principle we used on the Sage 17 and will use on the SageCat. it's basically a pushrod that works off the tiller, and connects to the rudder with a toggle that has to be the same distance off the tiller whether the rudder is up or down. A bungee keeps down-tension on the tiller which holds the rudder blade either up or down, and the momentum of the blade moves it past the hi spot when you lift up smartly and then push down on the tiller. Maybe Dave will post a pix of the Sage setup, or maybe one of Sal's M-15. Or both. The biggest problem is setting the bolts for the pintles so that they don't interfere with the rod moving. This is hard to explain but you can see it in the pix. A couple of the bolts need to be flat head machine screws, with the nuts on the outside, and for sure use Nylock nuts. We use 1/4-20 screws and bolts in the Sage, but if it's a much bigger and heavier boat don't hesitate to go bigger. There has never been a failure that I know of with this setup in nearly 500 M-15's that I made in addition to the 30 or so Sages, and the few complaints have been that you can't raise the tiller to tack when you have a crowded cockpit, which is a very small price to pay for a brilliant setup. Ron Holder and I first saw the setup on a big catamaran- my memory fails me- and stole the idea with their permission. They stole the idea with permission from a home-made boat they saw in England. A few years ago I bought a hundred-dollar junked-out Banshee, which is a 14' planing singlehander, and used the same mechanics to make a rudder. I haven't used it yet because I set the project aside when I started on the SageCat project so it's stuffed in my garage. I'll get it together when I finish the new Sage and I'll show them young Banshee punks how to sail. You bet. Good luck! Jerry -----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 6:34 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 Rudder Lifting Mechanism Do you have a rudder, our are you wanting to build one from scratch? :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner On Apr 2, 2015 6:49 AM, "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
Does anyone have a diagram that shows the mechanics of the lifting mechanism used on the M15 rudder?
It has been about 10 years since I've seen one in operation, but recall thinking it to be an engineering marvel.
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 6250 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4800 / Virus Database: 4311/9397 - Release Date: 03/27/15
Where are you located? Maybe there is a list member nearby with a Montgomery. It's easy to see how it works watching it in person, but difficult to describe. Tyler Davis, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 5:49:15 AM Subject: M_Boats: M15 Rudder Lifting Mechanism Does anyone have a diagram that shows the mechanics of the lifting mechanism used on the M15 rudder? It has been about 10 years since I've seen one in operation, but recall thinking it to be an engineering marvel.
participants (8)
-
casioqv＠usermail.com -
Dave Scobie -
Henry Rodriguez -
Howard Audsley -
jerry＠jerrymontgomery.org -
stevetrapp -
Thomas Buzzi -
Tom Smith