RE: Thankgiving Sail or stuck in the mud

5 Dec 2003

      My grandkids came into town from Maryland and wanted to sail in the new
boat. With a strong north wind blowing the water out of the bay and noon low
tide, I decided to pick the kids up at my daughter's house on the river (a
mile from the yatch club where Sweet Dream sleeps. Center board and rudder
up, I motored into the creek to her back yard and missed the channel! Great
chance to practice the stuck sailboat drill. I reversed the motor and swung
the boom out with my weight on it to pivot the keel out of the mud. No help.
I dropped the stern ladder and went overboard, sinking to mid thigh in the
black gumbo mud. I slowly tugged her free and standing on the ladder, I
reved the engine. No luck, drifted back into the mud. after three tries, I
realized that I had sheared the pin in the prop. Dummy! Found the channel
and paddled into the creek. Replaced the pin.
Got stuck again on the way out with a boat full of kids. This time I knew
what to do, pull her off backwards.
Sandra had a worst adventure. (let us know what the cause of the failure
was.
Don Ludlow M-15 # 620

-----Original Message-----
From: montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
[mailto:montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com]
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 10:32 AM
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
Subject: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 10, Issue 5

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: pre calcs on helm control (chbenneck@juno.com)
   2. Vacation in FL (Seawitch)
   3. Re: Vacation in FL (n9ca)
   4. Re: Vacation in FL (Gordon Allgrove)
   5. Re: The black hole... (Jerry Montgomery)
   6. Re: The black hole... (Jerry Montgomery)
   7. RE: Vacation in FL (htmills@bright.net)
   8. RE: pre calcs on helm control (htmills@bright.net)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:37:48 -0500
From: chbenneck@juno.com
Subject: Re: M_Boats: pre calcs on helm control
To: southisland2@earthlink.net,montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
Message-ID: <20031204.112122.2104.1.chbenneck@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Mike,

I'm afraid this is all trial and error.

Let's start with the obvious:  do you weigh 300 lbs, and is your wife /
girlfriend similarly endowed, or are you in the 170 lb range and she in
the 140 lb range?

In the first case you have 600 lbs in the cockpit vs, 300 lbs in the
second; or are you sailing alone and then there is only 170 lbs in the
cockpit - but where?    - in the middle or forward in the cockpit?

What you want to do is keep the transom from being in the water:  i.e.,
you want the water to flow from the hull, not curl around and add drag if
the transom is in the water.

With this as a base line, you now can play with shifting weights inside
the boat to keep the transom clear of the water, when you are in your
favorite "captain's" position in the cockpit.

On my M15, I keep my big anchor / chain / rode as far forward as I can -
under the access panel in the berths, to add as much weight there as
possible.

I only keep light objects at the stern end of the cockpit sail locker: 
plastic bucket / cleaning materials / fenders: the heavier items; anchor
/ chain / rode are in the forward end of the sail locker, as are mooring
lines and spare outboard fuel.

Another factor is the weight of your outboard ...................  small
and light or large and heavy?

The goal is to keep the stern from squatting in the water:  to do that
move weight forward.

Connie  

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:00:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Seawitch <seawitchlj@yahoo.com>
Subject: M_Boats: Vacation in FL
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
Message-ID: <20031204170026.82687.qmail@web9602.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi all, thought I would share with you my recent experience in Fl.  I
trailered Seawitch down to St. Petersburg to spend the Thanksgiving
week sailing on Tampa Bay.  The weather was in the 80's during the day,
and sunny most of the time.  I launched at the Municipal boat ramp on
Demens Landing in downtown St. Pete.  Prior arangements got us a spot
in Harborage Marina, not far from Demens.  On my final sail Fri. the
winds were 10-15, and predicted to be increasing as the day progressed
due to a major cold front rolling in.  I had full sails and we were
moving along on a port tack.  I decided it was time to start making way
towards Demens to haul out so we tacked to starboard.  My 1st mate, my
7 year old grand daughter moved from the starboard side of the boat in
order to be on the high side with me.  I was looking at the port side
stay and before my eyes, it pinged where it enters the swedge, and from
there in seconds it unraveled and the mast, boom and all the sails
droped into the water on the starboard side.  I hauled the whole mess
up onto the boat, secured things with some of the line that was
floating aroound.  A large motor boat came along, and offered to tow us
into the launch area.  Once tied up to the dock, I was able to unravel
all the line and cables and get things back in order so I could haul
her out for the ride back to GA.  Now, I will spend the winter working
on getting the boat re rigged.  I will probably replace all stays since
I no longer feel like I can trust the existing rigging.  This time I
want to have more easily adjustable stays.  As always, I appreciate
your comments and the benefit of those of you who have more experience
than I.

=====
Time for a cool change!
    Sandra(Seawitch #617)

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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:34:27 -0500
From: "n9ca" <n9ca@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Vacation in FL
To: <seawitchlj@yahoo.com>,<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c3ba8c$ddf1b960$20e13b44@andrsn01.tn.comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Sandra,

I carry a small bolt cutter to cut cables, if necessary, in the event that I
have an experience similar to yours. You may want to consider adding one to
your tool inventory. Glad to hear there were no injuries.

Clarence Andrews
Carpe Ventum  M-17 #604

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Seawitch" <seawitchlj@yahoo.com>
To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 12:00 PM
Subject: M_Boats: Vacation in FL
...
Hi all, thought I would share with you my recent experience in Fl.  I
trailered Seawitch down to St. Petersburg to spend the Thanksgiving
week sailing on Tampa Bay.  The weather was in the 80's during the day,
and sunny most of the time.  I launched at the Municipal boat ramp on
Demens Landing in downtown St. Pete.  Prior arangements got us a spot
in Harborage Marina, not far from Demens.  On my final sail Fri. the
winds were 10-15, and predicted to be increasing as the day progressed
due to a major cold front rolling in.  I had full sails and we were
moving along on a port tack.  I decided it was time to start making way
towards Demens to haul out so we tacked to starboard.  My 1st mate, my
7 year old grand daughter moved from the starboard side of the boat in
order to be on the high side with me.  I was looking at the port side
stay and before my eyes, it pinged where it enters the swedge, and from
there in seconds it unraveled and the mast, boom and all the sails
droped into the water on the starboard side.  I hauled the whole mess
up onto the boat, secured things with some of the line that was
floating aroound.  A large motor boat came along, and offered to tow us
into the launch area.  Once tied up to the dock, I was able to unravel
all the line and cables and get things back in order so I could haul
her out for the ride back to GA.  Now, I will spend the winter working
on getting the boat re rigged.  I will probably replace all stays since
I no longer feel like I can trust the existing rigging.  This time I
want to have more easily adjustable stays.  As always, I appreciate
your comments and the benefit of those of you who have more experience
than I.
=====
Time for a cool change!
    Sandra(Seawitch #617)
__________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:27:46 -0800
From: "Gordon Allgrove" <gordonallgrove@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Vacation in FL
To: <seawitchlj@yahoo.com>,<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <00ff01c3ba94$513bb720$720156d1@o0z5e0>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Sandra,
Years ago we had a similar situation where 'everything' went overboard. What
a mess.

All the rigging was replaced at 150% of original specifications and we
'never' had another problem with it.
After that we enjoyed very brisk offshore winds over cats paw waters & the
knot stick was all the way out - no more rigging worry.

Just our .015 cents of experience,
Gordon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Seawitch" <seawitchlj@yahoo.com>
To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 9:00 AM
Subject: M_Boats: Vacation in FL
...
Hi all, thought I would share with you my recent experience in Fl.  I
trailered Seawitch down to St. Petersburg to spend the Thanksgiving
week sailing on Tampa Bay.  The weather was in the 80's during the day,
and sunny most of the time.  I launched at the Municipal boat ramp on
Demens Landing in downtown St. Pete.  Prior arangements got us a spot
in Harborage Marina, not far from Demens.  On my final sail Fri. the
winds were 10-15, and predicted to be increasing as the day progressed
due to a major cold front rolling in.  I had full sails and we were
moving along on a port tack.  I decided it was time to start making way
towards Demens to haul out so we tacked to starboard.  My 1st mate, my
7 year old grand daughter moved from the starboard side of the boat in
order to be on the high side with me.  I was looking at the port side
stay and before my eyes, it pinged where it enters the swedge, and from
there in seconds it unraveled and the mast, boom and all the sails
droped into the water on the starboard side.  I hauled the whole mess
up onto the boat, secured things with some of the line that was
floating aroound.  A large motor boat came along, and offered to tow us
into the launch area.  Once tied up to the dock, I was able to unravel
all the line and cables and get things back in order so I could haul
her out for the ride back to GA.  Now, I will spend the winter working
on getting the boat re rigged.  I will probably replace all stays since
I no longer feel like I can trust the existing rigging.  This time I
want to have more easily adjustable stays.  As always, I appreciate
your comments and the benefit of those of you who have more experience
than I.
=====
Time for a cool change!
    Sandra(Seawitch #617)
__________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 19:25:56 -0800
From: "Jerry Montgomery" <jmbn@innercite.com>
Subject: Re: M_Boats: The black hole...
To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats"
	<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3bae2$cad24920$26e2de9e@jerrym>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

No, No, No!  Don't fill it with foam!  That is THE BILGE, and it's there to
collect water so it won't slosh all over the place and get everything wet.
One of the few intelligent things I did regarding boat building.

When there is water in it (the bilge), mop it out, or better yet put a bilge
pump pickup in it, mount a diaphram-type bilge pump in the side of the
cockpit well and exhaust it out thru the transom and live happily ever
after.  Listing to the water pumping out is almost like listening to Mozart.

Jerry

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rusty Knorr" <mazemusic@yahoo.com>
To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 8:07 PM
Subject: M_Boats: The black hole...
...
Hi all.
  Just curious about the area behind the
keel/centerboard trunk on my M-15, underneath the
cockpit. I have no access down there, my
lazarrets(sp?) are solid on the bottom. I know if you
drop something down there, good luck getting it out
but what is down there and why is it there? Can it
fill with water or is it self draining? Would it make
sense to fill it with foam to increase flotation and
prevent things falling down in there? Any insight is
as always very appreciated. Thank you!
Fair winds, Rusty
PS: I plan to try out my newly cleaned Tohatsu this
weekend. If there are any religeous sailers out there,
please pray for me! lmao!
=====
"In a power boat you may get there faster,
 but in a sailboat you are already there."
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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 19:30:09 -0800
From: "Jerry Montgomery" <jmbn@innercite.com>
Subject: Re: M_Boats: The black hole...
To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats"
	<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <000101c3bae2$cb1d34d0$26e2de9e@jerrym>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Yes- A perfect place to store the spare anchor and chain, alto in Tom's case
it would be frozen solid if any water worked in!

Jerry

----- Original Message -----
From: "Smith, Tom" <Tom.Smith@itron.com>
To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats"
<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 8:35 AM
Subject: RE: M_Boats: The black hole...
...
That black hole is basically the bilge Rusty.  It has no outlet.  It is
possible to worm your way back there from the cabin (or get an expendable
neighborhood kid to weasel his or her way back)and pick whatever it is that
dropped down there out.  I and others I'm sure drop ground tackle down there
to add a bit more weight low in the center of the boat.  I suppose you could
fill it with foam if you wanted to, but I prefer to store chain, rode and
anchor in there.  The downside is it's not too convenient to get that stuff
out if you need it in a hurry. t
Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle
Sandpoint, Idaho
M15-345, Chukar
M17-064, Unnamed
-----Original Message-----
From: Rusty Knorr [mailto:mazemusic@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 8:08 PM
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
Subject: M_Boats: The black hole...
Hi all.
  Just curious about the area behind the
keel/centerboard trunk on my M-15, underneath the
cockpit. I have no access down there, my
lazarrets(sp?) are solid on the bottom. I know if you
drop something down there, good luck getting it out
but what is down there and why is it there? Can it
fill with water or is it self draining? Would it make
sense to fill it with foam to increase flotation and
prevent things falling down in there? Any insight is
as always very appreciated. Thank you!
Fair winds, Rusty
PS: I plan to try out my newly cleaned Tohatsu this
weekend. If there are any religeous sailers out there,
please pray for me! lmao!
=====
"In a power boat you may get there faster,
 but in a sailboat you are already there."
__________________________________
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This message was scanned for viruses!!
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:51:17 -0500
From: <htmills@bright.net>
Subject: RE: M_Boats: Vacation in FL
To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'"
	<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <002301c3bae3$09fa0a70$7f9ddb42@HTM031103>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Youch!, Sandra

That was new rigging on a new boat, no? What a bummer!

Tod

-----Original Message-----
From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com
[mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Seawitch
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 12:00 PM
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
Subject: M_Boats: Vacation in FL

Hi all, thought I would share with you my recent experience in Fl.  I
trailered Seawitch down to St. Petersburg to spend the Thanksgiving week
sailing on Tampa Bay.  The weather was in the 80's during the day, and sunny
most of the time.  I launched at the Municipal boat ramp on Demens Landing
in downtown St. Pete.  Prior arangements got us a spot in Harborage Marina,
not far from Demens.  On my final sail Fri. the winds were 10-15, and
predicted to be increasing as the day progressed due to a major cold front
rolling in.  I had full sails and we were moving along on a port tack.  I
decided it was time to start making way towards Demens to haul out so we
tacked to starboard.  My 1st mate, my 7 year old grand daughter moved from
the starboard side of the boat in order to be on the high side with me.  I
was looking at the port side stay and before my eyes, it pinged where it
enters the swedge, and from there in seconds it unraveled and the mast, boom
and all the sails droped into the water on the starboard side.  I hauled the
whole mess up onto the boat, secured things with some of the line that was
floating aroound.  A large motor boat came along, and offered to tow us into
the launch area.  Once tied up to the dock, I was able to unravel all the
line and cables and get things back in order so I could haul her out for the
ride back to GA.  Now, I will spend the winter working on getting the boat
re rigged.  I will probably replace all stays since I no longer feel like I
can trust the existing rigging.  This time I want to have more easily
adjustable stays.  As always, I appreciate your comments and the benefit of
those of you who have more experience than I.

=====
Time for a cool change!
    Sandra(Seawitch #617)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/

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------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:57:04 -0500
From: <htmills@bright.net>
Subject: RE: M_Boats: pre calcs on helm control
To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'"
	<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <002401c3bae3$d882f730$7f9ddb42@HTM031103>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes, Bill sail shape is entirely possible, although I think Busca's sails
are newer.  I guess that is why I attributed it to the difference in
settings (and of course John's skills!)

Before too much longer I need to get a new suit for Busca.  I'm looking
forward to the improved performance.  The 155 is so blown out now it looks
like a bedsheet!

Tod
-----Original Message-----
From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com
[mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of
Wcpritchett@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:44 AM
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com; southisland2@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: M_Boats: pre calcs on helm control

Hi Tod,
The speed difference could also be attributed to sail shape.  It would have
been interesting if you swapped sails with the other Mont to see if that
made a difference. 

Case in point...I had 2 identical (same cut, fabric, and sailmaker for the
same boat) North brand mainsails on a 30' sloop and the only difference was
age.  One 10 yrs old and the spare was brand new.  The difference in sailing
performance was unbelievable.  The 10 yr old one still looked basically new.
The new sail outperformed the old in a big way, especially when beating.

Bill

Ludlow, Don

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