M 15 in a heavy wind situation
When I bought M 15 #616 from Stan he had blown out the full set of sails and I knew better and ordered from the knowledgeable Dr Judy B some custom Hyde sails. Specifically I asked for a sail range of 15-20 knots and I knew she would cut them FLAT baby because we like to point in a blow. Had the wife out in 18 gusting to +20 last season and YES we had a tiller extension and yes we sat forward to the cabin and she was between my legs all of us FORWARD. The boat powered up and blew through the Chesapeake Bay chop just like Jerry designed her to do. FLAT sails and moving your weight forward and If I had a trapeze wire I would have been out on it. Full Main and Jib when everybody around us was reefed. I knew that day that this boat was right for us. Now to the question of swapping out to a storm jib (I have one of those on board too) I would never feel comfortable going on the fore deck and swapping it out, Hey Sal and Jerry you hearing me on this one J I could have tucked away somewhere on a beach and done it but was I was never over powered. A FLAT main and jib will do this for you. Good luck Daniel with new sails cause that is the solution, use your blown out ones on drifters J Smiley M 15 #616 Smiley and Karen magoo252@comcast.net
I think you are on to something there. Furthermore, it turns out I do have a tiller extension sitting in the extra hardware that I got from Bob Becker when I bought the boat. He had replaced the tiller with a longer tiller, and the blade too. I went back to the old blade, but kept the longer tiller. Low and behold, there is a 26 inch extension from Forespar sitting on the old tiller. So, I just took it off and will put it on the new tiller. Looks like I gotta drill a 9/16 inch hole to fit it. Very nice quick release on it too. Regarding sails, I may want to give my local sail guy John Amen a crack at making them, although it is very tempting to contact Dr. Judy B about it. Daniel On Aug 18, 2013, at 2:42 PM, Karen and Smiley <magoo252@comcast.net> wrote:
When I bought M 15 #616 from Stan he had blown out the full set of sails and I knew better and ordered from the knowledgeable Dr Judy B some custom Hyde sails. Specifically I asked for a sail range of 15-20 knots and I knew she would cut them FLAT baby because we like to point in a blow. Had the wife out in 18 gusting to +20 last season and YES we had a tiller extension and yes we sat forward to the cabin and she was between my legs all of us FORWARD. The boat powered up and blew through the Chesapeake Bay chop just like Jerry designed her to do. FLAT sails and moving your weight forward and If I had a trapeze wire I would have been out on it. Full Main and Jib when everybody around us was reefed. I knew that day that this boat was right for us.
Now to the question of swapping out to a storm jib (I have one of those on board too) I would never feel comfortable going on the fore deck and swapping it out, Hey Sal and Jerry you hearing me on this one J I could have tucked away somewhere on a beach and done it but was I was never over powered. A FLAT main and jib will do this for you. Good luck Daniel with new sails cause that is the solution, use your blown out ones on drifters J
Smiley M 15 #616
Smiley and Karen
magoo252@comcast.net
With someone at the helm and able to stay in control on 1x or 2x reefed main alone - or on anchor if single-handing - going forward to change jibs seems totally doable...I was surprised how much space there was on the M15 foredeck. No forward hatch though so would have to go the long way to bring one out and put the doused one away. So, new flat sails might cost more than a storm jib alone, and furlers are certainly nice...best solution probably depends on one's budget :-) cheers, John S. On 08/18/2013 02:42 PM, Karen and Smiley wrote:
When I bought M 15 #616 from Stan he had blown out the full set of sails and I knew better and ordered from the knowledgeable Dr Judy B some custom Hyde sails. Specifically I asked for a sail range of 15-20 knots and I knew she would cut them FLAT baby because we like to point in a blow. Had the wife out in 18 gusting to +20 last season and YES we had a tiller extension and yes we sat forward to the cabin and she was between my legs all of us FORWARD. The boat powered up and blew through the Chesapeake Bay chop just like Jerry designed her to do. FLAT sails and moving your weight forward and If I had a trapeze wire I would have been out on it. Full Main and Jib when everybody around us was reefed. I knew that day that this boat was right for us.
Now to the question of swapping out to a storm jib (I have one of those on board too) I would never feel comfortable going on the fore deck and swapping it out, Hey Sal and Jerry you hearing me on this one J I could have tucked away somewhere on a beach and done it but was I was never over powered. A FLAT main and jib will do this for you. Good luck Daniel with new sails cause that is the solution, use your blown out ones on drifters J
Smiley M 15 #616
Smiley and Karen
magoo252@comcast.net
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I tried a zippered reefing jib on my Sabre 30 years ago. It worked fine in light winds with both panels in. It worked great in heavy wind with both panels out. But in intermediate wind with one panel out, the remaining panel would often unzip itself. I was thinking about trying a single panel zippered foot for my M-17 that would take me from working jib to semi-storm jib in one trip to the foredeck. The size of the reefing panel for an M-17 would be smaller than a table cloth. Hmmm… Jim M-17 "Spirit" On Aug 18, 2013, at 2:42 PM, "Karen and Smiley" <magoo252@comcast.net> wrote:
When I bought M 15 #616 from Stan he had blown out the full set of sails and I knew better and ordered from the knowledgeable Dr Judy B some custom Hyde sails. Specifically I asked for a sail range of 15-20 knots and I knew she would cut them FLAT baby because we like to point in a blow. Had the wife out in 18 gusting to +20 last season and YES we had a tiller extension and yes we sat forward to the cabin and she was between my legs all of us FORWARD. The boat powered up and blew through the Chesapeake Bay chop just like Jerry designed her to do. FLAT sails and moving your weight forward and If I had a trapeze wire I would have been out on it. Full Main and Jib when everybody around us was reefed. I knew that day that this boat was right for us.
Now to the question of swapping out to a storm jib (I have one of those on board too) I would never feel comfortable going on the fore deck and swapping it out, Hey Sal and Jerry you hearing me on this one J I could have tucked away somewhere on a beach and done it but was I was never over powered. A FLAT main and jib will do this for you. Good luck Daniel with new sails cause that is the solution, use your blown out ones on drifters J
Smiley M 15 #616
Smiley and Karen
magoo252@comcast.net
I haven't seen any mention of anyone using a working jib with a reef point. My jib can be reefed just by hauling in a line attached to a reef cringle at the clew, and attaching a separate jib sheet shackle with sheets already attached to the reef tack cringle, or moving the original jib shackle to the reef cringle. I prefer the separate sheet setup, because I can set it up ahead of time, and to reef, all that is required is to run the sheets through the fairleads and cam cleats when reefing or shaking out a reef. This way, I don't have to go forward, or even stand in the hatch and lean forward to reef, or shake out a reef. I would be interested to know if anyone else has this setup, and how it works for you. When reefed, I have no idea what percentage of the working jib the reefed jib is, but it really seems to work well with a reefed main. My main only has one reef point, which seems to be about midway between where two reef points would be. Most of the time, when the wind picks up, I just tough it out and avoid reefing. This proves to me that there's just a fine line between macho and stupid. I guess for the same reason, when it starts to sprinkle lightly, I decide it isn't raining hard enough to bother opening my umbrella. After a while, I'm soaking wet, and decide that since I'm already wet, why mess up my umbrella. Bill Day M-15 363, "Gee Whiz!" On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:31 PM, James Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote:
I tried a zippered reefing jib on my Sabre 30 years ago. It worked fine in light winds with both panels in. It worked great in heavy wind with both panels out. But in intermediate wind with one panel out, the remaining panel would often unzip itself. I was thinking about trying a single panel zippered foot for my M-17 that would take me from working jib to semi-storm jib in one trip to the foredeck. The size of the reefing panel for an M-17 would be smaller than a table cloth. Hmmm…
Jim M-17 "Spirit"
On Aug 18, 2013, at 2:42 PM, "Karen and Smiley" <magoo252@comcast.net> wrote:
When I bought M 15 #616 from Stan he had blown out the full set of sails and I knew better and ordered from the knowledgeable Dr Judy B some custom Hyde sails. Specifically I asked for a sail range of 15-20 knots and I knew she would cut them FLAT baby because we like to point in a blow. Had the wife out in 18 gusting to +20 last season and YES we had a tiller extension and yes we sat forward to the cabin and she was between my legs all of us FORWARD. The boat powered up and blew through the Chesapeake Bay chop just like Jerry designed her to do. FLAT sails and moving your weight forward and If I had a trapeze wire I would have been out on it. Full Main and Jib when everybody around us was reefed. I knew that day that this boat was right for us.
Now to the question of swapping out to a storm jib (I have one of those on board too) I would never feel comfortable going on the fore deck and swapping it out, Hey Sal and Jerry you hearing me on this one J I could have tucked away somewhere on a beach and done it but was I was never over powered. A FLAT main and jib will do this for you. Good luck Daniel with new sails cause that is the solution, use your blown out ones on drifters J
Smiley M 15 #616
Smiley and Karen
magoo252@comcast.net
Sorry, in my last post I used tack and clew backwards. I'm calling the number for "Dial-a-beating" right now. Bill Day M-15 363, "Gee Whiz!" On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Bill Day <bill@gotrain.org> wrote:
I haven't seen any mention of anyone using a working jib with a reef point. My jib can be reefed just by hauling in a line attached to a reef cringle at the clew, and attaching a separate jib sheet shackle with sheets already attached to the reef tack cringle, or moving the original jib shackle to the reef cringle. I prefer the separate sheet setup, because I can set it up ahead of time, and to reef, all that is required is to run the sheets through the fairleads and cam cleats when reefing or shaking out a reef. This way, I don't have to go forward, or even stand in the hatch and lean forward to reef, or shake out a reef.
I would be interested to know if anyone else has this setup, and how it works for you.
When reefed, I have no idea what percentage of the working jib the reefed jib is, but it really seems to work well with a reefed main. My main only has one reef point, which seems to be about midway between where two reef points would be.
Most of the time, when the wind picks up, I just tough it out and avoid reefing. This proves to me that there's just a fine line between macho and stupid. I guess for the same reason, when it starts to sprinkle lightly, I decide it isn't raining hard enough to bother opening my umbrella. After a while, I'm soaking wet, and decide that since I'm already wet, why mess up my umbrella.
Bill Day
M-15 363, "Gee Whiz!"
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:31 PM, James Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote:
I tried a zippered reefing jib on my Sabre 30 years ago. It worked fine in light winds with both panels in. It worked great in heavy wind with both panels out. But in intermediate wind with one panel out, the remaining panel would often unzip itself. I was thinking about trying a single panel zippered foot for my M-17 that would take me from working jib to semi-storm jib in one trip to the foredeck. The size of the reefing panel for an M-17 would be smaller than a table cloth. Hmmm…
Jim M-17 "Spirit"
On Aug 18, 2013, at 2:42 PM, "Karen and Smiley" <magoo252@comcast.net> wrote:
When I bought M 15 #616 from Stan he had blown out the full set of sails and I knew better and ordered from the knowledgeable Dr Judy B some custom Hyde sails. Specifically I asked for a sail range of 15-20 knots and I knew she would cut them FLAT baby because we like to point in a blow. Had the wife out in 18 gusting to +20 last season and YES we had a tiller extension and yes we sat forward to the cabin and she was between my legs all of us FORWARD. The boat powered up and blew through the Chesapeake Bay chop just like Jerry designed her to do. FLAT sails and moving your weight forward and If I had a trapeze wire I would have been out on it. Full Main and Jib when everybody around us was reefed. I knew that day that this boat was right for us.
Now to the question of swapping out to a storm jib (I have one of those on board too) I would never feel comfortable going on the fore deck and swapping it out, Hey Sal and Jerry you hearing me on this one J I could have tucked away somewhere on a beach and done it but was I was never over powered. A FLAT main and jib will do this for you. Good luck Daniel with new sails cause that is the solution, use your blown out ones on drifters J
Smiley M 15 #616
Smiley and Karen
magoo252@comcast.net
Well Bill, You better give me that number because I didn't pick up on that either. I just read on and apparently adjusted for the mishap with some other part of my brain. I did have to go to my compendium of nautical terms afterwards though and check out the "head, tack, clew" business. As concerns the rain thing. Timing is all. I once started motoring away from an anchorage with my "17" and suddenly stopped dead in the water. It was then that I looked up and realized I had motored into an overhanging palm tree. Lots of people saw that one. Was my face red. Fair winds, Tom B #258 On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 12:18 AM, Bill Day <bill@gotrain.org> wrote:
Sorry, in my last post I used tack and clew backwards. I'm calling the number for "Dial-a-beating" right now.
Bill Day
M-15 363, "Gee Whiz!"
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Bill Day <bill@gotrain.org> wrote:
I haven't seen any mention of anyone using a working jib with a reef point. My jib can be reefed just by hauling in a line attached to a reef cringle at the clew, and attaching a separate jib sheet shackle with sheets already attached to the reef tack cringle, or moving the original jib shackle to the reef cringle. I prefer the separate sheet setup, because I can set it up ahead of time, and to reef, all that is required is to run the sheets through the fairleads and cam cleats when reefing or shaking out a reef. This way, I don't have to go forward, or even stand in the hatch and lean forward to reef, or shake out a reef.
I would be interested to know if anyone else has this setup, and how it works for you.
When reefed, I have no idea what percentage of the working jib the reefed jib is, but it really seems to work well with a reefed main. My main only has one reef point, which seems to be about midway between where two reef points would be.
Most of the time, when the wind picks up, I just tough it out and avoid reefing. This proves to me that there's just a fine line between macho and stupid. I guess for the same reason, when it starts to sprinkle lightly, I decide it isn't raining hard enough to bother opening my umbrella. After a while, I'm soaking wet, and decide that since I'm already wet, why mess up my umbrella.
Bill Day
M-15 363, "Gee Whiz!"
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:31 PM, James Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote:
I tried a zippered reefing jib on my Sabre 30 years ago. It worked fine in light winds with both panels in. It worked great in heavy wind with both panels out. But in intermediate wind with one panel out, the remaining panel would often unzip itself. I was thinking about trying a single panel zippered foot for my M-17 that would take me from working jib to semi-storm jib in one trip to the foredeck. The size of the reefing panel for an M-17 would be smaller than a table cloth. Hmmm…
Jim M-17 "Spirit"
On Aug 18, 2013, at 2:42 PM, "Karen and Smiley" <magoo252@comcast.net> wrote:
When I bought M 15 #616 from Stan he had blown out the full set of sails and I knew better and ordered from the knowledgeable Dr Judy B some custom Hyde sails. Specifically I asked for a sail range of 15-20 knots and I knew she would cut them FLAT baby because we like to point in a blow. Had the wife out in 18 gusting to +20 last season and YES we had a tiller extension and yes we sat forward to the cabin and she was between my legs all of us FORWARD. The boat powered up and blew through the Chesapeake Bay chop just like Jerry designed her to do. FLAT sails and moving your weight forward and If I had a trapeze wire I would have been out on it. Full Main and Jib when everybody around us was reefed. I knew that day that this boat was right for us.
Now to the question of swapping out to a storm jib (I have one of those on board too) I would never feel comfortable going on the fore deck and swapping it out, Hey Sal and Jerry you hearing me on this one J I could have tucked away somewhere on a beach and done it but was I was never over powered. A FLAT main and jib will do this for you. Good luck Daniel with new sails cause that is the solution, use your blown out ones on drifters J
Smiley M 15 #616
Smiley and Karen
magoo252@comcast.net
Bill, I had a reefing set of points added to a working jib on my old Flicka 20. It worked great. I saw an idea about jib sheets a while back. Some fellow spliced a wooden toggle in the center loop that attached to the jib clue. That way he would just slip the toggle from jib clue to jib clue and not have to rive any new sheets. That would be a real short, one trip to the bow change is sails. Tom B M17-#258 On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 12:15 AM, Bill Day <bill@gotrain.org> wrote:
I haven't seen any mention of anyone using a working jib with a reef point. My jib can be reefed just by hauling in a line attached to a reef cringle at the clew, and attaching a separate jib sheet shackle with sheets already attached to the reef tack cringle, or moving the original jib shackle to the reef cringle. I prefer the separate sheet setup, because I can set it up ahead of time, and to reef, all that is required is to run the sheets through the fairleads and cam cleats when reefing or shaking out a reef. This way, I don't have to go forward, or even stand in the hatch and lean forward to reef, or shake out a reef.
I would be interested to know if anyone else has this setup, and how it works for you.
When reefed, I have no idea what percentage of the working jib the reefed jib is, but it really seems to work well with a reefed main. My main only has one reef point, which seems to be about midway between where two reef points would be.
Most of the time, when the wind picks up, I just tough it out and avoid reefing. This proves to me that there's just a fine line between macho and stupid. I guess for the same reason, when it starts to sprinkle lightly, I decide it isn't raining hard enough to bother opening my umbrella. After a while, I'm soaking wet, and decide that since I'm already wet, why mess up my umbrella.
Bill Day
M-15 363, "Gee Whiz!"
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:31 PM, James Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote:
I tried a zippered reefing jib on my Sabre 30 years ago. It worked fine in light winds with both panels in. It worked great in heavy wind with both panels out. But in intermediate wind with one panel out, the remaining panel would often unzip itself. I was thinking about trying a single panel zippered foot for my M-17 that would take me from working jib to semi-storm jib in one trip to the foredeck. The size of the reefing panel for an M-17 would be smaller than a table cloth. Hmmm…
Jim M-17 "Spirit"
On Aug 18, 2013, at 2:42 PM, "Karen and Smiley" <magoo252@comcast.net> wrote:
When I bought M 15 #616 from Stan he had blown out the full set of sails and I knew better and ordered from the knowledgeable Dr Judy B some custom Hyde sails. Specifically I asked for a sail range of 15-20 knots and I knew she would cut them FLAT baby because we like to point in a blow. Had the wife out in 18 gusting to +20 last season and YES we had a tiller extension and yes we sat forward to the cabin and she was between my legs all of us FORWARD. The boat powered up and blew through the Chesapeake Bay chop just like Jerry designed her to do. FLAT sails and moving your weight forward and If I had a trapeze wire I would have been out on it. Full Main and Jib when everybody around us was reefed. I knew that day that this boat was right for us.
Now to the question of swapping out to a storm jib (I have one of those on board too) I would never feel comfortable going on the fore deck and swapping it out, Hey Sal and Jerry you hearing me on this one J I could have tucked away somewhere on a beach and done it but was I was never over powered. A FLAT main and jib will do this for you. Good luck Daniel with new sails cause that is the solution, use your blown out ones on drifters J
Smiley M 15 #616
Smiley and Karen
magoo252@comcast.net
Interesting idea. Who would have thought, a zipper in a sail. Think I will talk to a sailmaker about that. One trip to the foredeck, even on an M17 would be great. I would like to try the roller reefing jib but since I trailer my boat it would add a whole nother bunch of motions to launch and retrieve. Tom B #258 On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 11:31 PM, James Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote:
I tried a zippered reefing jib on my Sabre 30 years ago. It worked fine in light winds with both panels in. It worked great in heavy wind with both panels out. But in intermediate wind with one panel out, the remaining panel would often unzip itself. I was thinking about trying a single panel zippered foot for my M-17 that would take me from working jib to semi-storm jib in one trip to the foredeck. The size of the reefing panel for an M-17 would be smaller than a table cloth. Hmmm…
Jim M-17 "Spirit"
On Aug 18, 2013, at 2:42 PM, "Karen and Smiley" <magoo252@comcast.net> wrote:
When I bought M 15 #616 from Stan he had blown out the full set of sails and I knew better and ordered from the knowledgeable Dr Judy B some custom Hyde sails. Specifically I asked for a sail range of 15-20 knots and I knew she would cut them FLAT baby because we like to point in a blow. Had the wife out in 18 gusting to +20 last season and YES we had a tiller extension and yes we sat forward to the cabin and she was between my legs all of us FORWARD. The boat powered up and blew through the Chesapeake Bay chop just like Jerry designed her to do. FLAT sails and moving your weight forward and If I had a trapeze wire I would have been out on it. Full Main and Jib when everybody around us was reefed. I knew that day that this boat was right for us.
Now to the question of swapping out to a storm jib (I have one of those on board too) I would never feel comfortable going on the fore deck and swapping it out, Hey Sal and Jerry you hearing me on this one J I could have tucked away somewhere on a beach and done it but was I was never over powered. A FLAT main and jib will do this for you. Good luck Daniel with new sails cause that is the solution, use your blown out ones on drifters J
Smiley M 15 #616
Smiley and Karen
magoo252@comcast.net
I got the idea from one of the the Pardey's books. It takes some thought to get it right, and it's not a racing sail at best. The Pardey's set-up was ridiculously heavy duty. The version on my Sabre 30 "Excalibur" was too stretchy at the luff attachments. It isn't the zipper that gives out. When the wind kicks up and the luff is under tension the luff attachments have to take the FULL load or the zipper gets started at that end and ZZZZZZZZZZIP! My conclusion is that line or tape is not enough for this attachment. You need something that has zero stretch - like a shackle, or carabiner (Maybe the Pardeys did know what they were talking about after all). For my M17 I'm thinking a 110 worker with a single zippered panel that takes me right down to a semi-storm jib (hence no luff attachment issues in high winds. In San Francisco Bay here are only two occasions when the wind blows 10 knots: 1) The wind was dead calm and it's on it's way to 20 knots 2) The wind was blowing 20 knots and now its dropping down to 0. I am exaggerating - but only a little. Jim M-17 "Spirit" On Aug 19, 2013, at 6:09 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Interesting idea. Who would have thought, a zipper in a sail. Think I will talk to a sailmaker about that. One trip to the foredeck, even on an M17 would be great. I would like to try the roller reefing jib but since I trailer my boat it would add a whole nother bunch of motions to launch and retrieve.
Tom B #258
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 11:31 PM, James Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote:
I tried a zippered reefing jib on my Sabre 30 years ago. It worked fine in light winds with both panels in. It worked great in heavy wind with both panels out. But in intermediate wind with one panel out, the remaining panel would often unzip itself. I was thinking about trying a single panel zippered foot for my M-17 that would take me from working jib to semi-storm jib in one trip to the foredeck. The size of the reefing panel for an M-17 would be smaller than a table cloth. Hmmm…
Jim M-17 "Spirit"
On Aug 18, 2013, at 2:42 PM, "Karen and Smiley" <magoo252@comcast.net> wrote:
When I bought M 15 #616 from Stan he had blown out the full set of sails and I knew better and ordered from the knowledgeable Dr Judy B some custom Hyde sails. Specifically I asked for a sail range of 15-20 knots and I knew she would cut them FLAT baby because we like to point in a blow. Had the wife out in 18 gusting to +20 last season and YES we had a tiller extension and yes we sat forward to the cabin and she was between my legs all of us FORWARD. The boat powered up and blew through the Chesapeake Bay chop just like Jerry designed her to do. FLAT sails and moving your weight forward and If I had a trapeze wire I would have been out on it. Full Main and Jib when everybody around us was reefed. I knew that day that this boat was right for us.
Now to the question of swapping out to a storm jib (I have one of those on board too) I would never feel comfortable going on the fore deck and swapping it out, Hey Sal and Jerry you hearing me on this one J I could have tucked away somewhere on a beach and done it but was I was never over powered. A FLAT main and jib will do this for you. Good luck Daniel with new sails cause that is the solution, use your blown out ones on drifters J
Smiley M 15 #616
Smiley and Karen
magoo252@comcast.net
participants (6)
-
Bill Day -
Daniel Rich -
James Poulakis -
John Schinnerer -
Karen and Smiley -
Thomas Buzzi