Gary... Am I missing something..?...I've seen dozens of older Montgomerys over the years and I've never heard or observed of problems with the stem-head fitting OR the rudder or compression post. Some occasional problems with the ballast/centerboard that needed attention; but considering some of these boats are now 32 years old, some repairs are to be expected. Sure, some problems may be caused by previous owners who failed to properly bed deck fittings or let a rudder sit out in the rain all winter but that is to be expected. What is amazing on these older boats is how structurally sound they are. No cracking, no delaminations, no soft spots. Quality counts. Bob -----Original Message-----

From: GILASAILR@aol.com Sent: Sep 23, 2007 9:19 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: RE: M23 Still For Sale in AZ for $5800 or offer

To the List, including someone who is not happy with their 'Montgomery Experience' -that would be "Bill" .

Bill, If you think the boat was so inferior on varying levels and from stem (headstay attach to rudder) to stern - it looks like you learned a great deal about what you want in a boat due to your experience with your Montgomery Sailboat. That right there was worth the price of admission. Life is a learning experience.

Your J-22 (I have owned one # 89) has a rudder that is technically just as 'inferior' as the M-17 rudder! I bet you sold your J-22 for a good amount.

You seem to have made great strides in 'designer' names of the boats you have purchased since then - you name Colgate, Kirby and Farr. Bill, How many Colgate 26's have they built? Who constructed your Farr and Kirby ? Are they in business today?, and trust me, those boats, ALL BOATS have their idiosyncrasies, weaknesses and faults. Most are greater than the M-17s minor concerns. (M-17, M-23 designer - The great - Lyle Hess)

Please allow that Your Opinions, My Opinions and those of the Buyer who pointed out all of the M-17 weaknesses are JUST OPINIONS - remember everyone has one, and they are generally worth FAR less than what you pay for them. If the buyer didn't slam your boat- he wouldn't be doing what made him feel superior in the negotiating process now would he? My response to folk like that (after having done the same myself for years) is to say "Well Mr. Bummer, it looks like you really want another kind of boat because this one is not meeting your high standards. Have you seen the Bayliner/Aquarius/Clipper for sale over at the next Marina? Maybe they will satisfy your needs and meet your high criteria. Thank You for looking at my boat - Have a GREAT DAY"

Your 'Buyers' concerns are NOT FACTS! Case in point - you are discussing a small boat - approx. 1550# unladen, masthead rig- if the "poor headstay attachment" you refer to, is going to fail - the headsail/halyard is MORE THAN capable of supporting the rig. The rudder is IMHO a marvelous solution and I wouldn't be caught dead with any OTHER version of a LAME kick-up rudder. Even the NEW IMPROVED models of Kickup rudders.

I will not spend time on the comments about the winches, plastic fittings and compression post - I think sir, the person needs a lesson in understanding the loads the boat is subject to while sailing. If you want something that is BOMBPROOF go buy a boat from the "recently auctioned for $85000 peanuts- previously financed by wealthy investors- World Cruiser model Sailboat Company" and try towing that thing around - or better yet, start calculating how much fresh water tankage you need to make it to Catalina Is. from San Pedro on a 'slow' day. Oh I forgot, you will have to wait awhile while they get the World Bruiser Sailing Vessel Company back up and running! I remember they used to be quality boats, I truly hope they will be all that and more. But I don't think they will build very many of them.

For your grandsons sake, I hope his Sunfish wasn't built by the interim builder of the 'New Deck Sunfish'. that there, that there is a weak boat - went outta biz real quick - But then so did Alcort after many years, Chrysler etc. And now a new Sunfish costs HOW much? _http://www.teamvanguard.com/2005/base/content.asp?section=boats&dir=core&pag... (http://www.teamvanguard.com/2005/base/content.asp?section=boats&dir=core&pag... &boatid=6) Wow! I hope the VALUE of my Sunfish increases because of the condition,location,demand and cost of replacement. But you know - it really doesn't matter - because I didn't buy it as an "monetary investment"

I have ranted more than enuf - IF you want something that meets all your needs - BUILD IT. The people on this list are here because they have an interest in a common sport and notably a line of sailboats that have been well recvd by many people - successful run in a VERY fickle business. It would be nice if you respected the people on this list. But hey it is the INTERNET and any monkey with a typewriter.......and some pee in his cheerios............

Bill. You have a great day and may I suggest a nice sail in the morning.

Gary O

They will have to pry my cold dead fingers off the tiller of my M-17. PS it is NFS.

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