Re: M_Boats: Stock wooden rudder
Tom B, What did the rudder weigh? Type and density of woods (different types of mahogany over the years) affect the weight and ultimate strength - my last wood rudder was little better than bad pallet lumber and warped in a few months (stored indoors) Inquiring minds... That is why 'we' built a plastic one. No warping and mucho control over strength,weight and shape! Thanks GO M-17t sail # 354 'Tiny Purple Fishes' In a message dated 10/21/2015 4:58:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com writes: Hello John, Another Monty owner already got the info I need to me. Thanks for your offer. Tom B On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:50 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I have a 74 - plain wooden rudder, painted, two pintles, no sliding rod gizmo. I can weight it if you want - I assume the rudder was pretty much the same from 74 to 77?
cheers, John S.
On 10/21/2015 11:27 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Does anybody know how heavy the stock wooden rudder was on 17 Montgomerys built in 1977?
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
The stock wooden one of mahogany with pintles and sliding ss rod weighed a little over 22 pounds. The IDA rudder I have made of high density plastic top and bottom with aluminum side plates for a hinge weighs in at about 60 pounds. A hugh addition to weight right at the back of the boat. Not good. I may go back to a wooden one and make it a kickup with side plates. Or redo the top half in aluminum plate. My list of winter projects is starting to grow. Tom B On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 10:02 PM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Tom B,
What did the rudder weigh? Type and density of woods (different types of mahogany over the years) affect the weight and ultimate strength - my last wood rudder was little better than bad pallet lumber and warped in a few months (stored indoors)
Inquiring minds... That is why 'we' built a plastic one. No warping and mucho control over strength,weight and shape!
Thanks GO M-17t sail # 354 'Tiny Purple Fishes'
In a message dated 10/21/2015 4:58:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com writes:
Hello John, Another Monty owner already got the info I need to me. Thanks for your offer. Tom B
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:50 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I have a 74 - plain wooden rudder, painted, two pintles, no sliding rod gizmo. I can weight it if you want - I assume the rudder was pretty much the same from 74 to 77?
cheers, John S.
On 10/21/2015 11:27 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Does anybody know how heavy the stock wooden rudder was on 17 Montgomerys built in 1977?
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I have an Ida Sailor kick-up rudder also, and have wondered about the additional weight at the stern. I would imagine, though, that the weight gain is somewhat cancelled by it's buoyancy once the rudder is in the water. Not as much as a wood rudder for sure, but it must be lighter in the water than it is out. On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
The stock wooden one of mahogany with pintles and sliding ss rod weighed a little over 22 pounds. The IDA rudder I have made of high density plastic top and bottom with aluminum side plates for a hinge weighs in at about 60 pounds. A hugh addition to weight right at the back of the boat. Not good. I may go back to a wooden one and make it a kickup with side plates. Or redo the top half in aluminum plate. My list of winter projects is starting to grow. Tom B
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 10:02 PM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Tom B,
What did the rudder weigh? Type and density of woods (different types of mahogany over the years) affect the weight and ultimate strength - my last wood rudder was little better than bad pallet lumber and warped in a few months (stored indoors)
Inquiring minds... That is why 'we' built a plastic one. No warping and mucho control over strength,weight and shape!
Thanks GO M-17t sail # 354 'Tiny Purple Fishes'
In a message dated 10/21/2015 4:58:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com writes:
Hello John, Another Monty owner already got the info I need to me. Thanks for your offer. Tom B
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:50 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I have a 74 - plain wooden rudder, painted, two pintles, no sliding rod gizmo. I can weight it if you want - I assume the rudder was pretty much the same from 74 to 77?
cheers, John S.
On 10/21/2015 11:27 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Does anybody know how heavy the stock wooden rudder was on 17 Montgomerys built in 1977?
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I am adding a 5hp tohatsu to the transom weight also. About 58 #'s. I agonized about getting the 3.5 which is only about 40 pounds but the winds down here just north of Corpus Christi, Tx. are considerable and generate a vicious chop. I talked to Jerry about making the M17 really efficient to windward and he suggested adding some weight to the hull and getting a highcut, 80% jib and using a barber hauler to be able to pull it inboard to about 9degrees from the centerline of the boat and double reefing the main. The traveler car should be pulled to windward as far as possible to be able to trim the main to the jib. He said the boat would scoot to windward dressed like that. I dropped the cast iron board this year and faired the leading and trailing edges to better conform to Jerry's idea of an efficient foil shape. The board ended up weighing only 140 pounds though I did not take any more than about 5 pounds off of it when I was grinding it. So the stock board was about about 35 pounds light as per boat specs. I added 50 pounds of lead to the base of the mast step in the hull to make up for that. I figured the 60 pound battery would then be enough extra weight to get the boat to push to windward. Lots of dithering with these little boats. Good thing I am retired. May I recommend getting a subscription to "Small Craft Advisor". It is a great magazine, bi-monthly, about little boats and the handling, maintenance and improvement of same. Since you also have a kickup rudder you might be interested in a piece of gear I devised to add a slip clutch to the line that holds the rudder blade in place while sailing and will only release if you hit something solid with the rudder, thus protecting your rudder attachment without having to resort to shear pins which are a pain to change out on the water after a grounding. Regards, Tom Buzzi On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
I have an Ida Sailor kick-up rudder also, and have wondered about the additional weight at the stern. I would imagine, though, that the weight gain is somewhat cancelled by it's buoyancy once the rudder is in the water. Not as much as a wood rudder for sure, but it must be lighter in the water than it is out.
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
The stock wooden one of mahogany with pintles and sliding ss rod weighed a little over 22 pounds. The IDA rudder I have made of high density plastic top and bottom with aluminum side plates for a hinge weighs in at about 60 pounds. A hugh addition to weight right at the back of the boat. Not good. I may go back to a wooden one and make it a kickup with side plates. Or redo the top half in aluminum plate. My list of winter projects is starting to grow. Tom B
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 10:02 PM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Tom B,
What did the rudder weigh? Type and density of woods (different types of mahogany over the years) affect the weight and ultimate strength - my last wood rudder was little better than bad pallet lumber and warped in a few months (stored indoors)
Inquiring minds... That is why 'we' built a plastic one. No warping and mucho control over strength,weight and shape!
Thanks GO M-17t sail # 354 'Tiny Purple Fishes'
In a message dated 10/21/2015 4:58:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com writes:
Hello John, Another Monty owner already got the info I need to me. Thanks for your offer. Tom B
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:50 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net
wrote:
I have a 74 - plain wooden rudder, painted, two pintles, no sliding rod gizmo. I can weight it if you want - I assume the rudder was pretty much the same from 74 to 77?
cheers, John S.
On 10/21/2015 11:27 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Does anybody know how heavy the stock wooden rudder was on 17 Montgomerys built in 1977?
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Do you have any diagrams and/or pictures of your slip clutch device that you'd be willing to share? thanks, John S. On 10/22/2015 08:52 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
... Since you also have a kickup rudder you might be interested in a piece of gear I devised to add a slip clutch to the line that holds the rudder blade in place while sailing and will only release if you hit something solid with the rudder, thus protecting your rudder attachment without having to resort to shear pins which are a pain to change out on the water after a grounding.
Regards, Tom Buzzi
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
The older Ida Sailor kick up rudders like mine were offered with an optional break away cleat that releases the "hold down" line if you hit something, allowing the rudder to kick up. Much handier than the shear pin design. I agree about SCA. Great magazine. I have every copy. Larry Y M17 CornDog On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:52 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
I am adding a 5hp tohatsu to the transom weight also. About 58 #'s. I agonized about getting the 3.5 which is only about 40 pounds but the winds down here just north of Corpus Christi, Tx. are considerable and generate a vicious chop. I talked to Jerry about making the M17 really efficient to windward and he suggested adding some weight to the hull and getting a highcut, 80% jib and using a barber hauler to be able to pull it inboard to about 9degrees from the centerline of the boat and double reefing the main. The traveler car should be pulled to windward as far as possible to be able to trim the main to the jib. He said the boat would scoot to windward dressed like that. I dropped the cast iron board this year and faired the leading and trailing edges to better conform to Jerry's idea of an efficient foil shape. The board ended up weighing only 140 pounds though I did not take any more than about 5 pounds off of it when I was grinding it. So the stock board was about about 35 pounds light as per boat specs. I added 50 pounds of lead to the base of the mast step in the hull to make up for that. I figured the 60 pound battery would then be enough extra weight to get the boat to push to windward. Lots of dithering with these little boats. Good thing I am retired. May I recommend getting a subscription to "Small Craft Advisor". It is a great magazine, bi-monthly, about little boats and the handling, maintenance and improvement of same. Since you also have a kickup rudder you might be interested in a piece of gear I devised to add a slip clutch to the line that holds the rudder blade in place while sailing and will only release if you hit something solid with the rudder, thus protecting your rudder attachment without having to resort to shear pins which are a pain to change out on the water after a grounding.
Regards, Tom Buzzi
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
I have an Ida Sailor kick-up rudder also, and have wondered about the additional weight at the stern. I would imagine, though, that the weight gain is somewhat cancelled by it's buoyancy once the rudder is in the water. Not as much as a wood rudder for sure, but it must be lighter in the water than it is out.
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
The stock wooden one of mahogany with pintles and sliding ss rod weighed a little over 22 pounds. The IDA rudder I have made of high density plastic top and bottom with aluminum side plates for a hinge weighs in at about 60 pounds. A hugh addition to weight right at the back of the boat. Not good. I may go back to a wooden one and make it a kickup with side plates. Or redo the top half in aluminum plate. My list of winter projects is starting to grow. Tom B
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 10:02 PM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Tom B,
What did the rudder weigh? Type and density of woods (different types of mahogany over the years) affect the weight and ultimate strength - my last wood rudder was little better than bad pallet lumber and warped in a few months (stored indoors)
Inquiring minds... That is why 'we' built a plastic one. No warping and mucho control over strength,weight and shape!
Thanks GO M-17t sail # 354 'Tiny Purple Fishes'
In a message dated 10/21/2015 4:58:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com writes:
Hello John, Another Monty owner already got the info I need to me. Thanks for your offer. Tom B
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:50 PM, John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net
wrote:
I have a 74 - plain wooden rudder, painted, two pintles, no sliding rod gizmo. I can weight it if you want - I assume the rudder was pretty much the same from 74 to 77?
cheers, John S.
On 10/21/2015 11:27 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Does anybody know how heavy the stock wooden rudder was on 17 Montgomerys built in 1977?
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Do you have a picture of that "break away cleat"? On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
The older Ida Sailor kick up rudders like mine were offered with an optional break away cleat that releases the "hold down" line if you hit something, allowing the rudder to kick up. Much handier than the shear pin design.
I agree about SCA. Great magazine. I have every copy.
Larry Y M17 CornDog
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:52 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
I am adding a 5hp tohatsu to the transom weight also. About 58 #'s. I agonized about getting the 3.5 which is only about 40 pounds but the winds down here just north of Corpus Christi, Tx. are considerable and generate a vicious chop. I talked to Jerry about making the M17 really efficient to windward and he suggested adding some weight to the hull and getting a highcut, 80% jib and using a barber hauler to be able to pull it inboard to about 9degrees from the centerline of the boat and double reefing the main. The traveler car should be pulled to windward as far as possible to be able to trim the main to the jib. He said the boat would scoot to windward dressed like that. I dropped the cast iron board this year and faired the leading and trailing edges to better conform to Jerry's idea of an efficient foil shape. The board ended up weighing only 140 pounds though I did not take any more than about 5 pounds off of it when I was grinding it. So the stock board was about about 35 pounds light as per boat specs. I added 50 pounds of lead to the base of the mast step in the hull to make up for that. I figured the 60 pound battery would then be enough extra weight to get the boat to push to windward. Lots of dithering with these little boats. Good thing I am retired. May I recommend getting a subscription to "Small Craft Advisor". It is a great magazine, bi-monthly, about little boats and the handling, maintenance and improvement of same. Since you also have a kickup rudder you might be interested in a piece of gear I devised to add a slip clutch to the line that holds the rudder blade in place while sailing and will only release if you hit something solid with the rudder, thus protecting your rudder attachment without having to resort to shear pins which are a pain to change out on the water after a grounding.
Regards, Tom Buzzi
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
I have an Ida Sailor kick-up rudder also, and have wondered about the additional weight at the stern. I would imagine, though, that the weight gain is somewhat cancelled by it's buoyancy once the rudder is in the water. Not as much as a wood rudder for sure, but it must be lighter in the water than it is out.
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com
wrote:
The stock wooden one of mahogany with pintles and sliding ss rod weighed a little over 22 pounds. The IDA rudder I have made of high density plastic top and bottom with aluminum side plates for a hinge weighs in at about 60 pounds. A hugh addition to weight right at the back of the boat. Not good. I may go back to a wooden one and make it a kickup with side plates. Or redo the top half in aluminum plate. My list of winter projects is starting to grow. Tom B
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 10:02 PM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Tom B,
What did the rudder weigh? Type and density of woods (different types of mahogany over the years) affect the weight and ultimate strength - my last wood rudder was little better than bad pallet lumber and warped in a few months (stored indoors)
Inquiring minds... That is why 'we' built a plastic one. No warping and mucho control over strength,weight and shape!
Thanks GO M-17t sail # 354 'Tiny Purple Fishes'
In a message dated 10/21/2015 4:58:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com writes:
Hello John, Another Monty owner already got the info I need to me. Thanks for your offer. Tom B
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:50 PM, John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net
wrote:
I have a 74 - plain wooden rudder, painted, two pintles, no sliding rod gizmo. I can weight it if you want - I assume the rudder was pretty much the same from 74 to 77?
cheers, John S.
On 10/21/2015 11:27 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
> Does anybody know how heavy the stock wooden rudder was on 17 Montgomerys > built in 1977? > > -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
http://duckworksbbs.com/hardware/cleats/sd002570/index.htm Here's a link to the break away cleat. On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you have a picture of that "break away cleat"?
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
The older Ida Sailor kick up rudders like mine were offered with an optional break away cleat that releases the "hold down" line if you hit something, allowing the rudder to kick up. Much handier than the shear pin design.
I agree about SCA. Great magazine. I have every copy.
Larry Y M17 CornDog
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:52 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
I am adding a 5hp tohatsu to the transom weight also. About 58 #'s. I agonized about getting the 3.5 which is only about 40 pounds but the winds down here just north of Corpus Christi, Tx. are considerable and generate a vicious chop. I talked to Jerry about making the M17 really efficient to windward and he suggested adding some weight to the hull and getting a highcut, 80% jib and using a barber hauler to be able to pull it inboard to about 9degrees from the centerline of the boat and double reefing the main. The traveler car should be pulled to windward as far as possible to be able to trim the main to the jib. He said the boat would scoot to windward dressed like that. I dropped the cast iron board this year and faired the leading and trailing edges to better conform to Jerry's idea of an efficient foil shape. The board ended up weighing only 140 pounds though I did not take any more than about 5 pounds off of it when I was grinding it. So the stock board was about about 35 pounds light as per boat specs. I added 50 pounds of lead to the base of the mast step in the hull to make up for that. I figured the 60 pound battery would then be enough extra weight to get the boat to push to windward. Lots of dithering with these little boats. Good thing I am retired. May I recommend getting a subscription to "Small Craft Advisor". It is a great magazine, bi-monthly, about little boats and the handling, maintenance and improvement of same. Since you also have a kickup rudder you might be interested in a piece of gear I devised to add a slip clutch to the line that holds the rudder blade in place while sailing and will only release if you hit something solid with the rudder, thus protecting your rudder attachment without having to resort to shear pins which are a pain to change out on the water after a grounding.
Regards, Tom Buzzi
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
I have an Ida Sailor kick-up rudder also, and have wondered about the additional weight at the stern. I would imagine, though, that the weight gain is somewhat cancelled by it's buoyancy once the rudder is in the water. Not as much as a wood rudder for sure, but it must be lighter in the water than it is out.
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Thomas Buzzi < thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com
wrote:
The stock wooden one of mahogany with pintles and sliding ss rod weighed a little over 22 pounds. The IDA rudder I have made of high density plastic top and bottom with aluminum side plates for a hinge weighs in at about 60 pounds. A hugh addition to weight right at the back of the boat. Not good. I may go back to a wooden one and make it a kickup with side plates. Or redo the top half in aluminum plate. My list of winter projects is starting to grow. Tom B
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 10:02 PM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Tom B,
What did the rudder weigh? Type and density of woods (different types of mahogany over the years) affect the weight and ultimate strength
my
last
wood rudder was little better than bad pallet lumber and warped in a few months (stored indoors)
Inquiring minds... That is why 'we' built a plastic one. No warping and mucho control over strength,weight and shape!
Thanks GO M-17t sail # 354 'Tiny Purple Fishes'
In a message dated 10/21/2015 4:58:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com writes:
Hello John, Another Monty owner already got the info I need to me. Thanks for your offer. Tom B
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:50 PM, John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net
wrote:
> I have a 74 - plain wooden rudder, painted, two pintles, no sliding rod > gizmo. I can weight it if you want - I assume the rudder was pretty much > the same from 74 to 77? > > cheers, > John S. > > On 10/21/2015 11:27 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote: > >> Does anybody know how heavy the stock wooden rudder was on 17 Montgomerys >> built in 1977? >> >> > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > >
Thanks, Larry, that is the way to go. On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:55 PM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
http://duckworksbbs.com/hardware/cleats/sd002570/index.htm
Here's a link to the break away cleat.
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you have a picture of that "break away cleat"?
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
The older Ida Sailor kick up rudders like mine were offered with an optional break away cleat that releases the "hold down" line if you hit something, allowing the rudder to kick up. Much handier than the shear pin design.
I agree about SCA. Great magazine. I have every copy.
Larry Y M17 CornDog
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:52 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
I am adding a 5hp tohatsu to the transom weight also. About 58 #'s. I agonized about getting the 3.5 which is only about 40 pounds but the winds down here just north of Corpus Christi, Tx. are considerable and generate a vicious chop. I talked to Jerry about making the M17 really efficient to windward and he suggested adding some weight to the hull and getting a highcut, 80% jib and using a barber hauler to be able to pull it inboard to about 9degrees from the centerline of the boat and double reefing the main. The traveler car should be pulled to windward as far as possible to be able to trim the main to the jib. He said the boat would scoot to windward dressed like that. I dropped the cast iron board this year and faired the leading and trailing edges to better conform to Jerry's idea of an efficient foil shape. The board ended up weighing only 140 pounds though I did not take any more than about 5 pounds off of it when I was grinding it. So the stock board was about about 35 pounds light as per boat specs. I added 50 pounds of lead to the base of the mast step in the hull to make up for that. I figured the 60 pound battery would then be enough extra weight to get the boat to push to windward. Lots of dithering with these little boats. Good thing I am retired. May I recommend getting a subscription to "Small Craft Advisor". It is a great magazine, bi-monthly, about little boats and the handling, maintenance and improvement of same. Since you also have a kickup rudder you might be interested in a piece of gear I devised to add a slip clutch to the line that holds the rudder blade in place while sailing and will only release if you hit something solid with the rudder, thus protecting your rudder attachment without having to resort to shear pins which are a pain to change out on the water after a grounding.
Regards, Tom Buzzi
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
I have an Ida Sailor kick-up rudder also, and have wondered about the additional weight at the stern. I would imagine, though, that the weight gain is somewhat cancelled by it's buoyancy once the rudder is in the water. Not as much as a wood rudder for sure, but it must be lighter in the water than it is out.
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Thomas Buzzi < thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com
wrote:
The stock wooden one of mahogany with pintles and sliding ss rod weighed a little over 22 pounds. The IDA rudder I have made of high density plastic top and bottom with aluminum side plates for a hinge weighs in at about 60 pounds. A hugh addition to weight right at the back of the boat. Not good. I may go back to a wooden one and make it a kickup with side plates. Or redo the top half in aluminum plate. My list of winter projects is starting to grow. Tom B
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 10:02 PM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
> Tom B, > > What did the rudder weigh? Type and density of woods (different types of > mahogany over the years) affect the weight and ultimate strength
my
last > wood rudder was little better than bad pallet lumber and warped in a few > months (stored indoors) > > Inquiring minds... > That is why 'we' built a plastic one. No warping and mucho control over > strength,weight and shape! > > Thanks > GO > M-17t sail # 354 'Tiny Purple Fishes' > > > In a message dated 10/21/2015 4:58:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com writes: > > Hello John, > Another Monty owner already got the info I need to me. Thanks for your > offer. > Tom B > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:50 PM, John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net
> wrote: > > > I have a 74 - plain wooden rudder, painted, two pintles, no sliding rod > > gizmo. I can weight it if you want - I assume the rudder was pretty much > > the same from 74 to 77? > > > > cheers, > > John S. > > > > On 10/21/2015 11:27 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote: > > > >> Does anybody know how heavy the stock wooden rudder was on 17 > Montgomerys > >> built in 1977? > >> > >> > > -- > > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > > -------------------------------------------- > > - Eco-Living - > > Whole Systems Design Services > > People - Place - Learning - Integration > > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > > http://eco-living.net > > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > > > > >
Gary, I was interested in your comment that your plastic rudder doesn't warp. I have a Ruddercraft retractable rudder that has a plastic blade, and it took a warp during its first season that I've not been able to permanently fix. Joel at Ruddercraft suggested bending it in the opposite direction and clamping it for several days. This did straighten it, but the fix was temporary and within a few days on the boat it was back to the same warped shape again. Any ideas? Thanks, Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 11:02 PM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Tom B,
What did the rudder weigh? Type and density of woods (different types of mahogany over the years) affect the weight and ultimate strength - my last wood rudder was little better than bad pallet lumber and warped in a few months (stored indoors)
Inquiring minds... That is why 'we' built a plastic one. No warping and mucho control over strength,weight and shape!
Thanks GO M-17t sail # 354 'Tiny Purple Fishes'
In a message dated 10/21/2015 4:58:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com writes:
Hello John, Another Monty owner already got the info I need to me. Thanks for your offer. Tom B
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:50 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I have a 74 - plain wooden rudder, painted, two pintles, no sliding rod gizmo. I can weight it if you want - I assume the rudder was pretty much the same from 74 to 77?
cheers, John S.
On 10/21/2015 11:27 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Does anybody know how heavy the stock wooden rudder was on 17 Montgomerys built in 1977?
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Here is a quote from a Chemical Engineering manual called "Practical Guide to Polyethylene" that talks about the conditions necessary to cause a permanent vs temporary change in shape. Polyethylene acts like an extremely thick liquid, and will "flow" permanently into a new shape, but the rate this occurs depends on the temperature, pressure, and time. You might try again slightly increasing those variables (too much will destroy it). "Like other viscoelastic materials, PE exhibits creep (or cold flow). Creep is the deformation (or total strain) that occurs after a stress as been applied. Its extent depends on the magnitude and nature of the stress, the temperature, and the time for which the stress is applied. Over a period of time, PE undergoes deformation even at room temperature and under relatively slow stress. After the removal of the stress, a moulding more or less regains its original shape, depending on the time under stress and magnitude of the stress. Recoverable deformation is known as elastic deformation and permanent deformation as plastic deformation." Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Oct 23, 2015, at 5:35 AM, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Gary,
I was interested in your comment that your plastic rudder doesn't warp. I have a Ruddercraft retractable rudder that has a plastic blade, and it took a warp during its first season that I've not been able to permanently fix. Joel at Ruddercraft suggested bending it in the opposite direction and clamping it for several days. This did straighten it, but the fix was temporary and within a few days on the boat it was back to the same warped shape again. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
participants (6)
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GILASAILR＠aol.com -
John Schinnerer -
Larry Yake -
Rick Davies -
Thomas Buzzi -
Tyler Backman