George: I had the second reef installed on my relatively new EP main. I looked at a few photos of M-15's with a second reef and pointed to a spot and told the sail maker, put it here. It is fairly deep, just a little less than the distance that the first reef is from the boom to the second reef. In all honesty, i've never used the second reef but there it is, rigged and ready. My thoughts are that if I need the second reef, I'm heading to safe harbor in a hurry, probably with the jib down, the hatch covers closed, my lifejacket and safety harness on, and my trusty 2HP Honda running. I've thought about getting a "storm jib" say 70% but heck, I'm not going to the bow in those conditions to put it up. and I'm not going to start out sailing in a 15 ft boat in those conditions with the storm jib on. Most likely, I'll get caught one day with the 150 up when a summer t'storm catches me. Then I'll use the jib downhaul, and maybe put the second reef in. I' ran the 20 + mile Dauphin Island Race last year in 20+ knots with the first reef and the 110 and found I needed the power to hammer through the waves. I feathered the main in the gusts and she stayed on her feet. I have tried "jib only" but never in 25+ knot winds. I'm not sure why you need the second reef but if it's for insurance, consider how the boat is going to handle in those conditions and whether you will fly your jib or not. Fair winds, good company, and have a nice sail. Don
I've never had a reef point in a jib before and don't really 'get' it. I mean, I can see how being able to reef it down from the cockpit would be great but don't you still have to go forward to rig the sheets and tie in the reef points? How do people actually use this? I plan to sail in San Francisco bay sometimes and may actually want to use it. Norm
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+nl=sagatech.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+nl=sagatech.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of LUDLOWD2@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 04:59 To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Second Reef
George: I had the second reef installed on my relatively new EP main. I looked at a few photos of M-15's with a second reef and pointed to a spot and told the sail maker, put it here. It is fairly deep, just a little less than the distance that the first reef is from the boom to the second reef. In all honesty, i've never used the second reef but there it is, rigged and ready. My thoughts are that if I need the second reef, I'm heading to safe harbor in a hurry, probably with the jib down, the hatch covers closed, my lifejacket and safety harness on, and my trusty 2HP Honda running. I've thought about getting a "storm jib" say 70% but heck, I'm not going to the bow in those conditions to put it up. and I'm not going to start out sailing in a 15 ft boat in those conditions with the storm jib on. Most likely, I'll get caught one day with the 150 up when a summer t'storm catches me. Then I'll use the jib downhaul, and maybe put the second reef in. I' ran the 20 + mile Dauphin Island Race last year in 20+ knots with the first reef and the 110 and found I needed the power to hammer through the waves. I feathered the main in the gusts and she stayed on her feet. I have tried "jib only" but never in 25+ knot winds. I'm not sure why you need the second reef but if it's for insurance, consider how the boat is going to handle in those conditions and whether you will fly your jib or not. Fair winds, good company, and have a nice sail. Don _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Norm, You do have to go forward to tie off the forward reefing line - there are two cringles on my jib. If you anticipate, you can attach a line to the cringle that will be the tack when reefed, run it through a block at the stem head and handle that line from the cockpit. I think the aft cringle line can be tied while standing in the cockpit, and you can handle the jib sheet transfer from the cockpit. I had nylon sister clips on my jib sheet, both jib clews (regular and reefed) and storm jib, so I could clip the sheet wherever I needed it. That worked great for a couple of years, then, in a blow but while still using the full jib, they opened up and let the jib clew loose. They didn't break, but stretched enough to release. Great in theory, but the clips need to be stronger. The solution may be the system Tod and Doug Kelch use. I haven't tried it yet, so I won't try to describe it. But it looks simple yet effective. Bill Riker M15 - #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Norm Lane Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 4:53 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Second Reef I've never had a reef point in a jib before and don't really 'get' it. I mean, I can see how being able to reef it down from the cockpit would be great but don't you still have to go forward to rig the sheets and tie in the reef points? How do people actually use this? I plan to sail in San Francisco bay sometimes and may actually want to use it. Norm
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+nl=sagatech.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+nl=sagatech.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of LUDLOWD2@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 04:59 To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Second Reef
George: I had the second reef installed on my relatively new EP main. I looked at a few photos of M-15's with a second reef and pointed to a spot and told the sail maker, put it here. It is fairly deep, just a little less than the distance that the first reef is from the boom to the second reef. In all honesty, i've never used the second reef but there it is, rigged and ready. My thoughts are that if I need the second reef, I'm heading to safe harbor in a hurry, probably with the jib down, the hatch covers closed, my lifejacket and safety harness on, and my trusty 2HP Honda running. I've thought about getting a "storm jib" say 70% but heck, I'm not going to the bow in those conditions to put it up. and I'm not going to start out sailing in a 15 ft boat in those conditions with the storm jib on. Most likely, I'll get caught one day with the 150 up when a summer t'storm catches me. Then I'll use the jib downhaul, and maybe put the second reef in. I' ran the 20 + mile Dauphin Island Race last year in 20+ knots with the first reef and the 110 and found I needed the power to hammer through the waves. I feathered the main in the gusts and she stayed on her feet. I have tried "jib only" but never in 25+ knot winds. I'm not sure why you need the second reef but if it's for insurance, consider how the boat is going to handle in those conditions and whether you will fly your jib or not. Fair winds, good company, and have a nice sail. Don _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Don, Good philosophy. If you are always upwind from your home port, you are in good shape and can sail with main or jib alone. The storm jib provides the ability to sail to windward in a blow and you never know when you'll need that capability. Sure, you hope you will never need to go to weather in 25 knots, but it can happen more or less frequently depending on your sailing grounds and habits. There was a story in a sailing magazine a few years ago, back before GOB and SCA, maybe Cruising World. A WWP 15 sailor got caught out in Lake Michigan and had a hell of a time. He couldn't go to weather with his sails or motor and upwind was where he needed to go. Downwind was farther out into the lake with bigger waves and more wind. I don't remember how he made it, if he was rescued or what, but one lesson learned was that a storm jib and deep reefs would have given him the ability to make progress toward shelter, something even his motor couldn't do. A friend and I were caught in a storm on Lake Erie, in the middle of the night, on his 23 footer. We could not make progress toward home even with the 9.9 outboard running flat out. The reefed main and jib were too much sail, so 90 degrees off the wind was the best we could do. It is amazing how well an M15 handles in a blow with 2 reefs and a storm jib. Those experiences convinced me that the ability to sail upwind, or comfortably downwind, in a blow is a safety factor. Like other safety equipment, you hope you don't need it, but are always more comfortable knowing it's there. Sailing on Lake Erie and the Chesapeake, I have had several occasions when I used my tiny storm jib and one or two reefs. It turns the situation from a "white knuckle" experience back into a Sunday sail. I don't like changing jibs in a blow, and usually get a little wet, but haven't ever been scared. I use two hands going forward, plunk my butt down on the foredeck so I can use two hands, most of the time, to work on the sails. The 15 is so small that you can lean back and stuff the "off watch" sail down the hatch, or into the cockpit, while still sitting on the foredeck! Then use two hands to walk or crawl back to the cockpit. Bill Riker M15 - #184 Storm Petrel Oh, you want to know how the Lake Erie episode was resolved? We needed to get west, upwind, back to Erie, PA, behind the long point that is Presque Isle peninsula. Eric has more than a healthy fear of shore so we were maybe 3 miles out. I argued that if we powered a couple of miles toward shore, a beam reach, the point would shelter us from the worst of the waves and maybe some of the wind. He finally agreed, we moved toward shore, into the lee of the peninsula and could then head slowly West toward Erie. We got back to the slip at dawn and slept soundly for a few hours. How we ended up in that predicament is a story for another day. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of LUDLOWD2@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 7:59 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Second Reef George: I had the second reef installed on my relatively new EP main. I looked at a few photos of M-15's with a second reef and pointed to a spot and told the sail maker, put it here. It is fairly deep, just a little less than the distance that the first reef is from the boom to the second reef. In all honesty, i've never used the second reef but there it is, rigged and ready. My thoughts are that if I need the second reef, I'm heading to safe harbor in a hurry, probably with the jib down, the hatch covers closed, my lifejacket and safety harness on, and my trusty 2HP Honda running. I've thought about getting a "storm jib" say 70% but heck, I'm not going to the bow in those conditions to put it up. and I'm not going to start out sailing in a 15 ft boat in those conditions with the storm jib on. Most likely, I'll get caught one day with the 150 up when a summer t'storm catches me. Then I'll use the jib downhaul, and maybe put the second reef in. I' ran the 20 + mile Dauphin Island Race last year in 20+ knots with the first reef and the 110 and found I needed the power to hammer through the waves. I feathered the main in the gusts and she stayed on her feet. I have tried "jib only" but never in 25+ knot winds. I'm not sure why you need the second reef but if it's for insurance, consider how the boat is going to handle in those conditions and whether you will fly your jib or not. Fair winds, good company, and have a nice sail. Don _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Bill, I expect this is the story you are referring to? http://potter-yachters.org/stories/sosmall/ It's an interesting read. Tod -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of William B. Riker Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:04 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Second Reef Don, Good philosophy. If you are always upwind from your home port, you are in good shape and can sail with main or jib alone. The storm jib provides the ability to sail to windward in a blow and you never know when you'll need that capability. Sure, you hope you will never need to go to weather in 25 knots, but it can happen more or less frequently depending on your sailing grounds and habits. There was a story in a sailing magazine a few years ago, back before GOB and SCA, maybe Cruising World. A WWP 15 sailor got caught out in Lake Michigan and had a hell of a time. He couldn't go to weather with his sails or motor and upwind was where he needed to go. Downwind was farther out into the lake with bigger waves and more wind. I don't remember how he made it, if he was rescued or what, but one lesson learned was that a storm jib and deep reefs would have given him the ability to make progress toward shelter, something even his motor couldn't do. A friend and I were caught in a storm on Lake Erie, in the middle of the night, on his 23 footer. We could not make progress toward home even with the 9.9 outboard running flat out. The reefed main and jib were too much sail, so 90 degrees off the wind was the best we could do. It is amazing how well an M15 handles in a blow with 2 reefs and a storm jib. Those experiences convinced me that the ability to sail upwind, or comfortably downwind, in a blow is a safety factor. Like other safety equipment, you hope you don't need it, but are always more comfortable knowing it's there. Sailing on Lake Erie and the Chesapeake, I have had several occasions when I used my tiny storm jib and one or two reefs. It turns the situation from a "white knuckle" experience back into a Sunday sail. I don't like changing jibs in a blow, and usually get a little wet, but haven't ever been scared. I use two hands going forward, plunk my butt down on the foredeck so I can use two hands, most of the time, to work on the sails. The 15 is so small that you can lean back and stuff the "off watch" sail down the hatch, or into the cockpit, while still sitting on the foredeck! Then use two hands to walk or crawl back to the cockpit. Bill Riker M15 - #184 Storm Petrel Oh, you want to know how the Lake Erie episode was resolved? We needed to get west, upwind, back to Erie, PA, behind the long point that is Presque Isle peninsula. Eric has more than a healthy fear of shore so we were maybe 3 miles out. I argued that if we powered a couple of miles toward shore, a beam reach, the point would shelter us from the worst of the waves and maybe some of the wind. He finally agreed, we moved toward shore, into the lee of the peninsula and could then head slowly West toward Erie. We got back to the slip at dawn and slept soundly for a few hours. How we ended up in that predicament is a story for another day. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of LUDLOWD2@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 7:59 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Second Reef George: I had the second reef installed on my relatively new EP main. I looked at a few photos of M-15's with a second reef and pointed to a spot and told the sail maker, put it here. It is fairly deep, just a little less than the distance that the first reef is from the boom to the second reef. In all honesty, i've never used the second reef but there it is, rigged and ready. My thoughts are that if I need the second reef, I'm heading to safe harbor in a hurry, probably with the jib down, the hatch covers closed, my lifejacket and safety harness on, and my trusty 2HP Honda running. I've thought about getting a "storm jib" say 70% but heck, I'm not going to the bow in those conditions to put it up. and I'm not going to start out sailing in a 15 ft boat in those conditions with the storm jib on. Most likely, I'll get caught one day with the 150 up when a summer t'storm catches me. Then I'll use the jib downhaul, and maybe put the second reef in. I' ran the 20 + mile Dauphin Island Race last year in 20+ knots with the first reef and the 110 and found I needed the power to hammer through the waves. I feathered the main in the gusts and she stayed on her feet. I have tried "jib only" but never in 25+ knot winds. I'm not sure why you need the second reef but if it's for insurance, consider how the boat is going to handle in those conditions and whether you will fly your jib or not. Fair winds, good company, and have a nice sail. Don _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Well, I got all my parts in for the roller furler CDI FF2 w/ the bearings. And the deck mounting kit. Sadly I took my sails to the local sail loft which now does 80% of its business doing awnings and signs. They have been there 2 weeks now and the owner has not even looked at them, so I picked up all of them and just left the 130% for a luff tape install. I had taken some of my sails from my previous boat and entertained the thought of using one of them for a furling sail since they are a heavier cloth than the current ones. Oh well, now I am seriously considering practicing sailmaking with them, by ordering the tape and the materials from sailrite and modifying them myself. Semi-frustrated gil -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+gilbert=mindgame.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+gilbert=mindgame.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 4:33 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Second Reef Bill, I expect this is the story you are referring to? http://potter-yachters.org/stories/sosmall/ It's an interesting read. Tod -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of William B. Riker Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:04 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Second Reef Don, Good philosophy. If you are always upwind from your home port, you are in good shape and can sail with main or jib alone. The storm jib provides the ability to sail to windward in a blow and you never know when you'll need that capability. Sure, you hope you will never need to go to weather in 25 knots, but it can happen more or less frequently depending on your sailing grounds and habits. There was a story in a sailing magazine a few years ago, back before GOB and SCA, maybe Cruising World. A WWP 15 sailor got caught out in Lake Michigan and had a hell of a time. He couldn't go to weather with his sails or motor and upwind was where he needed to go. Downwind was farther out into the lake with bigger waves and more wind. I don't remember how he made it, if he was rescued or what, but one lesson learned was that a storm jib and deep reefs would have given him the ability to make progress toward shelter, something even his motor couldn't do. A friend and I were caught in a storm on Lake Erie, in the middle of the night, on his 23 footer. We could not make progress toward home even with the 9.9 outboard running flat out. The reefed main and jib were too much sail, so 90 degrees off the wind was the best we could do. It is amazing how well an M15 handles in a blow with 2 reefs and a storm jib. Those experiences convinced me that the ability to sail upwind, or comfortably downwind, in a blow is a safety factor. Like other safety equipment, you hope you don't need it, but are always more comfortable knowing it's there. Sailing on Lake Erie and the Chesapeake, I have had several occasions when I used my tiny storm jib and one or two reefs. It turns the situation from a "white knuckle" experience back into a Sunday sail. I don't like changing jibs in a blow, and usually get a little wet, but haven't ever been scared. I use two hands going forward, plunk my butt down on the foredeck so I can use two hands, most of the time, to work on the sails. The 15 is so small that you can lean back and stuff the "off watch" sail down the hatch, or into the cockpit, while still sitting on the foredeck! Then use two hands to walk or crawl back to the cockpit. Bill Riker M15 - #184 Storm Petrel Oh, you want to know how the Lake Erie episode was resolved? We needed to get west, upwind, back to Erie, PA, behind the long point that is Presque Isle peninsula. Eric has more than a healthy fear of shore so we were maybe 3 miles out. I argued that if we powered a couple of miles toward shore, a beam reach, the point would shelter us from the worst of the waves and maybe some of the wind. He finally agreed, we moved toward shore, into the lee of the peninsula and could then head slowly West toward Erie. We got back to the slip at dawn and slept soundly for a few hours. How we ended up in that predicament is a story for another day. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of LUDLOWD2@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 7:59 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Second Reef George: I had the second reef installed on my relatively new EP main. I looked at a few photos of M-15's with a second reef and pointed to a spot and told the sail maker, put it here. It is fairly deep, just a little less than the distance that the first reef is from the boom to the second reef. In all honesty, i've never used the second reef but there it is, rigged and ready. My thoughts are that if I need the second reef, I'm heading to safe harbor in a hurry, probably with the jib down, the hatch covers closed, my lifejacket and safety harness on, and my trusty 2HP Honda running. I've thought about getting a "storm jib" say 70% but heck, I'm not going to the bow in those conditions to put it up. and I'm not going to start out sailing in a 15 ft boat in those conditions with the storm jib on. Most likely, I'll get caught one day with the 150 up when a summer t'storm catches me. Then I'll use the jib downhaul, and maybe put the second reef in. I' ran the 20 + mile Dauphin Island Race last year in 20+ knots with the first reef and the 110 and found I needed the power to hammer through the waves. I feathered the main in the gusts and she stayed on her feet. I have tried "jib only" but never in 25+ knot winds. I'm not sure why you need the second reef but if it's for insurance, consider how the boat is going to handle in those conditions and whether you will fly your jib or not. Fair winds, good company, and have a nice sail. Don _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
I don't mean to criticize this skipper, but as I read his story, a number of questions come to mind....and maybe I'm overly cautious, or maybe just a big chicken....but here goes: He was sailing under a roller reefed headsail (genoa no less) only.....and trying to beat to weather? I don't know the boat, but he also says the WWP's don't go to weather well. So as I read it, he was using a sail combination (poorly set headsail) only....a recipe for leeway, on a boat that would not go to weather well anyway. And when the story started, he was on a starboard tack, which was blowing him away from shore. Would he have done better sailing with a double reefed main only, on port tack? He would have been more head to seas...drifting to starboard and back to the lee of the shore. With the wind veering counterclockwise, he would have eventually been on a beam reach towards shore. As for the roller reefing, it is convenient, and I've observed a number of boats on our lake sailing under the headsail alone as they can quickly roll it out and be underway and just as easily take it in. I wonder if he wasn't using this technique for ease of use, as opposed to using a double reefed main, which would have been a better sail for these conditions, but more work to set? And just imagine if that rope had jammed in that roller drum? And he was sailing at night in rough conditions? His motor was an old seagull. I've never had the pleasure of using one, but the quaint nature of them aside, I don't thing anyone would place them in the category of reliable. Fine piece of equipment to hang on the transom if you want to putter around in protected waters....but not go to sea with. Again, I've not used one but from the stories I've heard, they tend to quit running when they are needed the most. I've never had occasion to use it, but my boat came with a sea anchor. I carry it on trips to the Chesapeake, and if I was sailing Lake Michigan, I'd have it aboard. If you imagine his predicament, he could have put that rig out and "parked" himself where he was till the worst of it blew over. You rig it to hold you about 45 degrees to the wind and waves, so it all just slides past. You are not beam on to get a knockdown, you are not stern to where you can get pooped, and not head on sailing back and forth. There may be other factors involved, and again, I wasn't there, so I don't mean to be too critical of this guy. My point is to use his experience as an educational tool so that I or others wouldn't find myself in the same predicament. And as is often the case, the boat came through it and the skipper didn't. Howard On 5/6/05 4:33 PM, "htmills@bright.net" <htmills@bright.net> wrote:
Bill,
I expect this is the story you are referring to?
http://potter-yachters.org/stories/sosmall/
It's an interesting read.
Tod
Tod, That isn't just the way I remember the article but it's a similar story, if not the real thing. The name "So Small" seems very familiar. It must be the 18 years working on my brain. Bill -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of htmills@bright.net Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 5:33 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Second Reef Bill, I expect this is the story you are referring to? http://potter-yachters.org/stories/sosmall/ It's an interesting read. Tod -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of William B. Riker Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:04 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Second Reef Don, Good philosophy. If you are always upwind from your home port, you are in good shape and can sail with main or jib alone. The storm jib provides the ability to sail to windward in a blow and you never know when you'll need that capability. Sure, you hope you will never need to go to weather in 25 knots, but it can happen more or less frequently depending on your sailing grounds and habits. There was a story in a sailing magazine a few years ago, back before GOB and SCA, maybe Cruising World. A WWP 15 sailor got caught out in Lake Michigan and had a hell of a time. He couldn't go to weather with his sails or motor and upwind was where he needed to go. Downwind was farther out into the lake with bigger waves and more wind. I don't remember how he made it, if he was rescued or what, but one lesson learned was that a storm jib and deep reefs would have given him the ability to make progress toward shelter, something even his motor couldn't do. A friend and I were caught in a storm on Lake Erie, in the middle of the night, on his 23 footer. We could not make progress toward home even with the 9.9 outboard running flat out. The reefed main and jib were too much sail, so 90 degrees off the wind was the best we could do. It is amazing how well an M15 handles in a blow with 2 reefs and a storm jib. Those experiences convinced me that the ability to sail upwind, or comfortably downwind, in a blow is a safety factor. Like other safety equipment, you hope you don't need it, but are always more comfortable knowing it's there. Sailing on Lake Erie and the Chesapeake, I have had several occasions when I used my tiny storm jib and one or two reefs. It turns the situation from a "white knuckle" experience back into a Sunday sail. I don't like changing jibs in a blow, and usually get a little wet, but haven't ever been scared. I use two hands going forward, plunk my butt down on the foredeck so I can use two hands, most of the time, to work on the sails. The 15 is so small that you can lean back and stuff the "off watch" sail down the hatch, or into the cockpit, while still sitting on the foredeck! Then use two hands to walk or crawl back to the cockpit. Bill Riker M15 - #184 Storm Petrel Oh, you want to know how the Lake Erie episode was resolved? We needed to get west, upwind, back to Erie, PA, behind the long point that is Presque Isle peninsula. Eric has more than a healthy fear of shore so we were maybe 3 miles out. I argued that if we powered a couple of miles toward shore, a beam reach, the point would shelter us from the worst of the waves and maybe some of the wind. He finally agreed, we moved toward shore, into the lee of the peninsula and could then head slowly West toward Erie. We got back to the slip at dawn and slept soundly for a few hours. How we ended up in that predicament is a story for another day. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of LUDLOWD2@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 7:59 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Second Reef George: I had the second reef installed on my relatively new EP main. I looked at a few photos of M-15's with a second reef and pointed to a spot and told the sail maker, put it here. It is fairly deep, just a little less than the distance that the first reef is from the boom to the second reef. In all honesty, i've never used the second reef but there it is, rigged and ready. My thoughts are that if I need the second reef, I'm heading to safe harbor in a hurry, probably with the jib down, the hatch covers closed, my lifejacket and safety harness on, and my trusty 2HP Honda running. I've thought about getting a "storm jib" say 70% but heck, I'm not going to the bow in those conditions to put it up. and I'm not going to start out sailing in a 15 ft boat in those conditions with the storm jib on. Most likely, I'll get caught one day with the 150 up when a summer t'storm catches me. Then I'll use the jib downhaul, and maybe put the second reef in. I' ran the 20 + mile Dauphin Island Race last year in 20+ knots with the first reef and the 110 and found I needed the power to hammer through the waves. I feathered the main in the gusts and she stayed on her feet. I have tried "jib only" but never in 25+ knot winds. I'm not sure why you need the second reef but if it's for insurance, consider how the boat is going to handle in those conditions and whether you will fly your jib or not. Fair winds, good company, and have a nice sail. Don _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Don, You may not have used that second reef, but you're probably glad you have it. My reason for wanting the second reef is safety and comparative comfort in northern California summer breezes that can pipe up in the afternoon to better than 30 knots. I have sailed my 15 with a single reef and a reefed foresail and felt right on the white-knuckle edge with my 200 pounds hanging way over the side to keep the boat on her feet. That's a lot of fun...for a while. When I bring the Admirable along or my nine year old daughter, that's maybe a little too much fun. I don't want to scare them: I gotta live with these people and I want them to like sailing as much as I do. So, yeah, insurance: that second reef will make the going a little easier if I want...it's all about having options in case you need them, I guess. I also have a new little jib made up to Jerry M's specs and have found the M15 really likes that little sail in a blow. Anyhow, thanks for the response. I'm feeling much better about my deep reef. George M15 #385 Santa Rosa, CA On 5/5/05 4:58 AM, "LUDLOWD2@aol.com" <LUDLOWD2@aol.com> wrote:
George: I had the second reef installed on my relatively new EP main. I looked at a few photos of M-15's with a second reef and pointed to a spot and told the sail maker, put it here. It is fairly deep, just a little less than the distance that the first reef is from the boom to the second reef. In all honesty, i've never used the second reef but there it is, rigged and ready. My thoughts are that if I need the second reef, I'm heading to safe harbor in a hurry, probably with the jib down, the hatch covers closed, my lifejacket and safety harness on, and my trusty 2HP Honda running. I've thought about getting a "storm jib" say 70% but heck, I'm not going to the bow in those conditions to put it up. and I'm not going to start out sailing in a 15 ft boat in those conditions with the storm jib on. Most likely, I'll get caught one day with the 150 up when a summer t'storm catches me. Then I'll use the jib downhaul, and maybe put the second reef in. I' ran the 20 + mile Dauphin Island Race last year in 20+ knots with the first reef and the 110 and found I needed the power to hammer through the waves. I feathered the main in the gusts and she stayed on her feet. I have tried "jib only" but never in 25+ knot winds. I'm not sure why you need the second reef but if it's for insurance, consider how the boat is going to handle in those conditions and whether you will fly your jib or not. Fair winds, good company, and have a nice sail. Don _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
participants (7)
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George Burmeyer -
Gilbert Landin -
Howard Audsley -
htmills＠bright.net -
LUDLOWD2＠aol.com -
Norm Lane -
William B. Riker