more market research!
More market research! The 16 project is well under way; the design has been sent off for approval, and as soon as I get it I'll start on the tooling. In the meantime, there are more things to be considered so that decisions can be made when appropriate. I don't mean to be a pest, but I'd like to lean on your valuable opinions for more market research. Basically what we have so far is a boat of 16'6" and a beam of 6.6', and a tall 7/8 rig. Closer to the 17 in size than it is the 15. We have worked out the sitting headroom below that seems to be the major criticism of the 15. I'm quite happy that the buyer of this design and I see eye-to- eye on pretty much everything (so far), and what we both want is a fast, seaworthy boat (actually, what I want is a fast, seaworthy boat, and what he wants is a seaworthy, fast boat) and that within reason cost is not a major consideration . In manufacturing, we plan to use more exotic materials and better engineering than anything else on the market. As many of you know I've made most of my living for the last 6 or 8 years designing and tooling what is probably the best line of racing kayaks and outrigger canoes in the world, and I've been forced to stay on the leading edge in using up-to-date materials and techniques, as well as design. Huki's (A Hawaiian word meaning GO ; jawsee Huki.com) most popular and successful surfski (offshore racing kayak) is 22' long and weighs under 20 lbs! They are raced inter-island in Hawaii, all over San Francisco Bay, around Catalina Isl, etc, and the boat is NOT the weak link when it comes to survival. They are totally capable of handling 10' and 12' waves with the correct paddler, which is not me ! I just realized that this really sounds like a marketing come-on , but it's really not and is more a reflection of my enthusiasm. Questions: The cabin, which fits in with the forward hatch. I have drawn the boat with a "Montgomery style" house similar to the existing 15 and 17. A problem is that there is not room for a "real" forward hatch unless we go to a trunk house type of cabin , with a traditional, more vertical forward panel. This will give us another 4 or 6" of cabin deck space in front of the mast, enough for a fwd hatch, without encroaching on the foredeck. How do you feel about this? Is the forward hatch worth a Hess style house? The only disadvantage of a trunk house is a bit more windage sailing upwind, which is drag. I can live with it and I wonder if some might prefer it. It also has a bit more headroom sitting on the head. Windows. What percentage of you would like the option of opening ports? All the ones I've seen on the market ( and I really haven't paid much attention for years) are pretty traditional and would go well with a trunk house. If we picked a good opening window we would probably design a non-opening port to go with it as standard equipment. In any case we would need to use two windows per side to leave the middle part of the sides of the house uncut, for strength. Any thoughts on this? Personally I'd opt for no fwd hatch, and use a dorade vent which works for me because of where I sail, but I realize that most of you do not sail in CA and Mexico. Also, the slap slap of anchoring stern-to doesn't really bother me when I sleep. I just pretend it's Mom's heartbeat. This is a subtle thing but an ongoing discussion is just where do we put the line on stability versus speed? I have always preferred the tall rig 17 to the normal one because it has a touch more speed. Yes, it has to reef or downshift the jib a bit earlier, but so what? If you sail in an area where it blows 20 regularly I would expect you to feel differently, but how many of us do? I would rather have a spirited boat in the light stuff, but I realize this is just me. With most any fractional rig it works best to go to a smaller headsail before reefing the main, mostly for the sake of forestay tension, but it's not a big deal unless you want to win a race. You 15 owners- would you rather have a bit more ballast and not have the boat quite as lively in the light stuff, or is it about right? How about the 17? How often do you wish you had a tall rig? Gary O, who is as knowledgeable as I, blew the mast on his 17 and had worn out sails, and he replaced the rig with a tall rig. How many of you would do this if fSaced with the same situation? The 15 and the 17 have earned their reputations in three ways; they are well built, they are seaworthy, and they are remarkably fast for their lengths. I really expect to make the 16 as fast as a 17 because of up-to-date design and technology, but it must also be as stable and seaworthy. I have had the thought before that I'd take a 15 anywhere I would a 17, and the new boat needs to be included in this. Any comments? jerry
Hi Jerry: Ok. 2 cents worth from a 66 year old who got into sailing late, figured it out on a Catalina 14.2, and bought Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) with an eye to trailering about the NW. It didn't work out for a variety of reasons and I have sailed her at Fern Ridge Reservoir (Eugene, Oregon) for the past 10 years. My responses and thoughts are probably worth what you paid to get them: 1. Trunk house 2. Opening ports 3. Stability over speed Two other ideas. 1. Add a stern anchoring system. I used one when I skippered a boat in the Swedish Archipelago and they make anchoring a pleasure instead of a chore. 2. Make it easy to add (or even include) canvas to button the boat up. Not everybody sails in good climes. Thanks for asking! Cheers, Shawn Boles -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of jerry Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 3:27 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: more market research! More market research! The 16 project is well under way; the design has been sent off for approval, and as soon as I get it I'll start on the tooling. In the meantime, there are more things to be considered so that decisions can be made when appropriate. I don't mean to be a pest, but I'd like to lean on your valuable opinions for more market research. Basically what we have so far is a boat of 16'6" and a beam of 6.6', and a tall 7/8 rig. Closer to the 17 in size than it is the 15. We have worked out the sitting headroom below that seems to be the major criticism of the 15. I'm quite happy that the buyer of this design and I see eye-to- eye on pretty much everything (so far), and what we both want is a fast, seaworthy boat (actually, what I want is a fast, seaworthy boat, and what he wants is a seaworthy, fast boat) and that within reason cost is not a major consideration . In manufacturing, we plan to use more exotic materials and better engineering than anything else on the market. As many of you know I've made most of my living for the last 6 or 8 years designing and tooling what is probably the best line of racing kayaks and outrigger canoes in the world, and I've been forced to stay on the leading edge in using up-to-date materials and techniques, as well as design. Huki's (A Hawaiian word meaning GO ; jawsee Huki.com) most popular and successful surfski (offshore racing kayak) is 22' long and weighs under 20 lbs! They are raced inter-island in Hawaii, all over San Francisco Bay, around Catalina Isl, etc, and the boat is NOT th! e weak link when it comes to survival. They are totally capable of handling 10' and 12' waves with the correct paddler, which is not me ! I just realized that this really sounds like a marketing come-on , but it's really not and is more a reflection of my enthusiasm. Questions: The cabin, which fits in with the forward hatch. I have drawn the boat with a "Montgomery style" house similar to the existing 15 and 17. A problem is that there is not room for a "real" forward hatch unless we go to a trunk house type of cabin , with a traditional, more vertical forward panel. This will give us another 4 or 6" of cabin deck space in front of the mast, enough for a fwd hatch, without encroaching on the foredeck. How do you feel about this? Is the forward hatch worth a Hess style house? The only disadvantage of a trunk house is a bit more windage sailing upwind, which is drag. I can live with it and I wonder if some might prefer it. It also has a bit more headroom sitting on the head. Windows. What percentage of you would like the option of opening ports? All the ones I've seen on the market ( and I really haven't paid much attention for years) are pretty traditional and would go well with a trunk house. If we picked a good opening window we would probably design a non-opening port to go with it as standard equipment. In any case we would need to use two windows per side to leave the middle part of the sides of the house uncut, for strength. Any thoughts on this? Personally I'd opt for no fwd hatch, and use a dorade vent which works for me because of where I sail, but I realize that most of you do not sail in CA and Mexico. Also, the slap slap of anchoring stern-to doesn't really bother me when I sleep. I just pretend it's Mom's heartbeat. This is a subtle thing but an ongoing discussion is just where do we put the line on stability versus speed? I have always preferred the tall rig 17 to the normal one because it has a touch more speed. Yes, it has to reef or downshift the jib a bit earlier, but so what? If you sail in an area where it blows 20 regularly I would expect you to feel differently, but how many of us do? I would rather have a spirited boat in the light stuff, but I realize this is just me. With most any fractional rig it works best to go to a smaller headsail before reefing the main, mostly for the sake of forestay tension, but it's not a big deal unless you want to win a race. You 15 owners- would you rather have a bit more ballast and not have the boat quite as lively in the light stuff, or is it about right? How about the 17? How often do you wish you had a tall rig? Gary O, who is as knowledgeable as I, blew the mast on his 17 and had worn out sails, and he replaced the rig with a ! tall rig. How many of you would do this if fSaced with the same situation? The 15 and the 17 have earned their reputations in three ways; they are well built, they are seaworthy, and they are remarkably fast for their lengths. I really expect to make the 16 as fast as a 17 because of up-to-date design and technology, but it must also be as stable and seaworthy. I have had the thought before that I'd take a 15 anywhere I would a 17, and the new boat needs to be included in this. Any comments? jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Shawn, Can you describe the stern anchoring system. Thanks, Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shawn Boles" <shawn@ori.org> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 7:13 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research!
Hi Jerry:
Ok. 2 cents worth from a 66 year old who got into sailing late, figured it out on a Catalina 14.2, and bought Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) with an eye to trailering about the NW. It didn't work out for a variety of reasons and I have sailed her at Fern Ridge Reservoir (Eugene, Oregon) for the past 10 years. My responses and thoughts are probably worth what you paid to get them:
1. Trunk house
2. Opening ports
3. Stability over speed
Two other ideas.
1. Add a stern anchoring system. I used one when I skippered a boat in the Swedish Archipelago and they make anchoring a pleasure instead of a chore.
2. Make it easy to add (or even include) canvas to button the boat up. Not everybody sails in good climes.
Thanks for asking!
Cheers, Shawn Boles
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of jerry Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 3:27 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: more market research!
More market research!
The 16 project is well under way; the design has been sent off for approval, and as soon as I get it I'll start on the tooling. In the meantime, there are more things to be considered so that decisions can be made when appropriate. I don't mean to be a pest, but I'd like to lean on your valuable opinions for more market research. Basically what we have so far is a boat of 16'6" and a beam of 6.6', and a tall 7/8 rig. Closer to the 17 in size than it is the 15. We have worked out the sitting headroom below that seems to be the major criticism of the 15.
I'm quite happy that the buyer of this design and I see eye-to- eye on pretty much everything (so far), and what we both want is a fast, seaworthy boat (actually, what I want is a fast, seaworthy boat, and what he wants is a seaworthy, fast boat) and that within reason cost is not a major consideration . In manufacturing, we plan to use more exotic materials and better engineering than anything else on the market. As many of you know I've made most of my living for the last 6 or 8 years designing and tooling what is probably the best line of racing kayaks and outrigger canoes in the world, and I've been forced to stay on the leading edge in using up-to-date materials and techniques, as well as design. Huki's (A Hawaiian word meaning GO ; jawsee Huki.com) most popular and successful surfski (offshore racing kayak) is 22' long and weighs under 20 lbs! They are raced inter-island in Hawaii, all over San Francisco Bay, around Catalina Isl, etc, and the boat is NOT th!
e weak link when it comes to survival. They are totally capable of handling 10' and 12' waves with the correct paddler, which is not me !
I just realized that this really sounds like a marketing come-on , but it's really not and is more a reflection of my enthusiasm.
Questions:
The cabin, which fits in with the forward hatch. I have drawn the boat with a "Montgomery style" house similar to the existing 15 and 17. A problem is that there is not room for a "real" forward hatch unless we go to a trunk house type of cabin , with a traditional, more vertical forward panel. This will give us another 4 or 6" of cabin deck space in front of the mast, enough for a fwd hatch, without encroaching on the foredeck. How do you feel about this? Is the forward hatch worth a Hess style house? The only disadvantage of a trunk house is a bit more windage sailing upwind, which is drag. I can live with it and I wonder if some might prefer it. It also has a bit more headroom sitting on the head.
Windows. What percentage of you would like the option of opening ports? All the ones I've seen on the market ( and I really haven't paid much attention for years) are pretty traditional and would go well with a trunk house. If we picked a good opening window we would probably design a non-opening port to go with it as standard equipment. In any case we would need to use two windows per side to leave the middle part of the sides of the house uncut, for strength. Any thoughts on this? Personally I'd opt for no fwd hatch, and use a dorade vent which works for me because of where I sail, but I realize that most of you do not sail in CA and Mexico. Also, the slap slap of anchoring stern-to doesn't really bother me when I sleep. I just pretend it's Mom's heartbeat.
This is a subtle thing but an ongoing discussion is just where do we put the line on stability versus speed? I have always preferred the tall rig 17 to the normal one because it has a touch more speed. Yes, it has to reef or downshift the jib a bit earlier, but so what? If you sail in an area where it blows 20 regularly I would expect you to feel differently, but how many of us do? I would rather have a spirited boat in the light stuff, but I realize this is just me. With most any fractional rig it works best to go to a smaller headsail before reefing the main, mostly for the sake of forestay tension, but it's not a big deal unless you want to win a race. You 15 owners- would you rather have a bit more ballast and not have the boat quite as lively in the light stuff, or is it about right? How about the 17? How often do you wish you had a tall rig? Gary O, who is as knowledgeable as I, blew the mast on his 17 and had worn out sails, and he replaced the rig with a !
tall rig. How many of you would do this if fSaced with the same situation? The 15 and the 17 have earned their reputations in three ways; they are well built, they are seaworthy, and they are remarkably fast for their lengths. I really expect to make the 16 as fast as a 17 because of up-to-date design and technology, but it must also be as stable and seaworthy. I have had the thought before that I'd take a 15 anywhere I would a 17, and the new boat needs to be included in this. Any comments?
jerry
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Hi Joe: It is just a reel with rope or webbing rode. Various mounting options. Here is a picture I found( look at the bottom right photo). http://svmirador.net/SolarPanels.htm I was on a 20 foot boat and the reel/anchor were sized accordingly. HTH cheers, Shawn Boles Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Murphy Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 5:43 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research! Shawn, Can you describe the stern anchoring system. Thanks, Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shawn Boles" <shawn@ori.org> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 7:13 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research!
Hi Jerry:
Ok. 2 cents worth from a 66 year old who got into sailing late, figured it out on a Catalina 14.2, and bought Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) with an eye to trailering about the NW. It didn't work out for a variety of reasons and I have sailed her at Fern Ridge Reservoir (Eugene, Oregon) for the past 10 years. My responses and thoughts are probably worth what you paid to get them:
1. Trunk house
2. Opening ports
3. Stability over speed
Two other ideas.
1. Add a stern anchoring system. I used one when I skippered a boat in the Swedish Archipelago and they make anchoring a pleasure instead of a chore.
2. Make it easy to add (or even include) canvas to button the boat up. Not everybody sails in good climes.
Thanks for asking!
Cheers, Shawn Boles
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of jerry Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 3:27 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: more market research!
More market research!
The 16 project is well under way; the design has been sent off for approval, and as soon as I get it I'll start on the tooling. In the meantime, there are more things to be considered so that decisions can be made when appropriate. I don't mean to be a pest, but I'd like to lean on your valuable opinions for more market research. Basically what we have so far is a boat of 16'6" and a beam of 6.6', and a tall 7/8 rig. Closer to the 17 in size than it is the 15. We have worked out the sitting headroom below that seems to be the major criticism of the 15.
I'm quite happy that the buyer of this design and I see eye-to- eye on pretty much everything (so far), and what we both want is a fast, seaworthy boat (actually, what I want is a fast, seaworthy boat, and what he wants is a seaworthy, fast boat) and that within reason cost is not a major consideration . In manufacturing, we plan to use more exotic materials and better engineering than anything else on the market. As many of you know I've made most of my living for the last 6 or 8 years designing and tooling what is probably the best line of racing kayaks and outrigger canoes in the world, and I've been forced to stay on the leading edge in using up-to-date materials and techniques, as well as design. Huki's (A Hawaiian word meaning GO ; jawsee Huki.com) most popular and successful surfski (offshore racing kayak) is 22' long and weighs under 20 lbs! They are raced inter-island in Hawaii, all over San Francisco Bay, around Catalina Isl, etc, and the boat is NOT th!
e weak link when it comes to survival. They are totally capable of handling 10' and 12' waves with the correct paddler, which is not me !
I just realized that this really sounds like a marketing come-on , but it's really not and is more a reflection of my enthusiasm.
Questions:
The cabin, which fits in with the forward hatch. I have drawn the boat with a "Montgomery style" house similar to the existing 15 and 17. A problem is that there is not room for a "real" forward hatch unless we go to a trunk house type of cabin , with a traditional, more vertical forward panel. This will give us another 4 or 6" of cabin deck space in front of the mast, enough for a fwd hatch, without encroaching on the foredeck. How do you feel about this? Is the forward hatch worth a Hess style house? The only disadvantage of a trunk house is a bit more windage sailing upwind, which is drag. I can live with it and I wonder if some might prefer it. It also has a bit more headroom sitting on the head.
Windows. What percentage of you would like the option of opening ports? All the ones I've seen on the market ( and I really haven't paid much attention for years) are pretty traditional and would go well with a trunk house. If we picked a good opening window we would probably design a non-opening port to go with it as standard equipment. In any case we would need to use two windows per side to leave the middle part of the sides of the house uncut, for strength. Any thoughts on this? Personally I'd opt for no fwd hatch, and use a dorade vent which works for me because of where I sail, but I realize that most of you do not sail in CA and Mexico. Also, the slap slap of anchoring stern-to doesn't really bother me when I sleep. I just pretend it's Mom's heartbeat.
This is a subtle thing but an ongoing discussion is just where do we put the line on stability versus speed? I have always preferred the tall rig 17 to the normal one because it has a touch more speed. Yes, it has to reef or downshift the jib a bit earlier, but so what? If you sail in an area where it blows 20 regularly I would expect you to feel differently, but how many of us do? I would rather have a spirited boat in the light stuff, but I realize this is just me. With most any fractional rig it works best to go to a smaller headsail before reefing the main, mostly for the sake of forestay tension, but it's not a big deal unless you want to win a race. You 15 owners- would you rather have a bit more ballast and not have the boat quite as lively in the light stuff, or is it about right? How about the 17? How often do you wish you had a tall rig? Gary O, who is as knowledgeable as I, blew the mast on his 17 and had worn out sails, and he replaced the rig with a !
tall rig. How many of you would do this if fSaced with the same situation? The 15 and the 17 have earned their reputations in three ways; they are well built, they are seaworthy, and they are remarkably fast for their lengths. I really expect to make the 16 as fast as a 17 because of up-to-date design and technology, but it must also be as stable and seaworthy. I have had the thought before that I'd take a 15 anywhere I would a 17, and the new boat needs to be included in this. Any comments?
jerry
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Jerry, I appear to be in the minority, but haven't felt uncomfortably stuffy in my 15, especially since I started using a light nylon boom tent. I'd go for opening ports/dorade vent and skip the hatch. It maintains the watertight integrity and strength of the hull as well as providing a more workable foredeck. I'd vote for a little more ballast, proportionately, than the 15 has now. I think about tall he times watching Tod sitting comfortably to leeward in his 17 when I was having to play the mainsheet. Bill Riker M15 - #184 Storm Petrel
I like the idea of making the forward part of the roof more vertical to make way for a hatch. I realize it would create a little more windage, but I think it would add a little 'salt'. And speaking of hatches, I would also suggest a hatch that can open fore and aft. I wouldn't have a boat without opening ports. But that's just me. Here on the NC coast it can get a tad stuffy. Good luck, Jerry. And thanks for letting us comment. Joe Seafrog M17 PS Enjoyed your piece in the recent SCA. jm ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerry" <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 6:26 PM Subject: M_Boats: more market research!
More market research!
The 16 project is well under way; the design has been sent off for approval, and as soon as I get it I'll start on the tooling. In the meantime, there are more things to be considered so that decisions can be made when appropriate. I don't mean to be a pest, but I'd like to lean on your valuable opinions for more market research. Basically what we have so far is a boat of 16'6" and a beam of 6.6', and a tall 7/8 rig. Closer to the 17 in size than it is the 15. We have worked out the sitting headroom below that seems to be the major criticism of the 15.
I'm quite happy that the buyer of this design and I see eye-to- eye on pretty much everything (so far), and what we both want is a fast, seaworthy boat (actually, what I want is a fast, seaworthy boat, and what he wants is a seaworthy, fast boat) and that within reason cost is not a major consideration . In manufacturing, we plan to use more exotic materials and better engineering than anything else on the market. As many of you know I've made most of my living for the last 6 or 8 years designing and tooling what is probably the best line of racing kayaks and outrigger canoes in the world, and I've been forced to stay on the leading edge in using up-to-date materials and techniques, as well as design. Huki's (A Hawaiian word meaning GO ; jawsee Huki.com) most popular and successful surfski (offshore racing kayak) is 22' long and weighs under 20 lbs! They are raced inter-island in Hawaii, all over San Francisco Bay, around Catalina Isl, etc, and the boat is NOT the weak link when it comes to survival. They are totally capable of handling 10' and 12' waves with the correct paddler, which is not me !
I just realized that this really sounds like a marketing come-on , but it's really not and is more a reflection of my enthusiasm.
Questions:
The cabin, which fits in with the forward hatch. I have drawn the boat with a "Montgomery style" house similar to the existing 15 and 17. A problem is that there is not room for a "real" forward hatch unless we go to a trunk house type of cabin , with a traditional, more vertical forward panel. This will give us another 4 or 6" of cabin deck space in front of the mast, enough for a fwd hatch, without encroaching on the foredeck. How do you feel about this? Is the forward hatch worth a Hess style house? The only disadvantage of a trunk house is a bit more windage sailing upwind, which is drag. I can live with it and I wonder if some might prefer it. It also has a bit more headroom sitting on the head.
Windows. What percentage of you would like the option of opening ports? All the ones I've seen on the market ( and I really haven't paid much attention for years) are pretty traditional and would go well with a trunk house. If we picked a good opening window we would probably design a non-opening port to go with it as standard equipment. In any case we would need to use two windows per side to leave the middle part of the sides of the house uncut, for strength. Any thoughts on this? Personally I'd opt for no fwd hatch, and use a dorade vent which works for me because of where I sail, but I realize that most of you do not sail in CA and Mexico. Also, the slap slap of anchoring stern-to doesn't really bother me when I sleep. I just pretend it's Mom's heartbeat.
This is a subtle thing but an ongoing discussion is just where do we put the line on stability versus speed? I have always preferred the tall rig 17 to the normal one because it has a touch more speed. Yes, it has to reef or downshift the jib a bit earlier, but so what? If you sail in an area where it blows 20 regularly I would expect you to feel differently, but how many of us do? I would rather have a spirited boat in the light stuff, but I realize this is just me. With most any fractional rig it works best to go to a smaller headsail before reefing the main, mostly for the sake of forestay tension, but it's not a big deal unless you want to win a race. You 15 owners- would you rather have a bit more ballast and not have the boat quite as lively in the light stuff, or is it about right? How about the 17? How often do you wish you had a tall rig? Gary O, who is as knowledgeable as I, blew the mast on his 17 and had worn out sails, and he replaced the rig with a tall rig. How many of you would do this if fSaced with the same situation? The 15 and the 17 have earned their reputations in three ways; they are well built, they are seaworthy, and they are remarkably fast for their lengths. I really expect to make the 16 as fast as a 17 because of up-to-date design and technology, but it must also be as stable and seaworthy. I have had the thought before that I'd take a 15 anywhere I would a 17, and the new boat needs to be included in this. Any comments?
jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Jerry, I sail a Vagabond 17, and a M-15. Day sailing, I love the lively attitude of the M-15, reminds me of my younger dingy days, but, starting out on a 4-5 hour cruising day, I prefer the stability of the V-17. On some of my cruising days, I sailed with 2 M-15s, one of which I now own. If the forecast was for building winds the M-15s would start out with their smaller jibs. They both were sailing solo, and did not want to go forward to change. Usually, having roller furling, I would have to unnecessarily reduce my sail area to wait for them. They were slow until, if ever, the wind picked up. So, maybe go tall, and reef the main first. Much easier to do solo, and you donÂ’t sail slow waiting for the wind. Seems to me that if you reef the top down to the jib head, you now have the mast head rig of the 17Â….just my observation, I am not an expert.
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
A Vagabond 17! it was designed by a good friend, Ron Holder, and tooled and buillt by another good friend, Chuck Guy. Ron and I worked out the rudder together that I used on the 15, and he used on his 17. We got the idea from that cat made in Florida- can't remember the name, but it was about 24', and we copied it with their permission. Their display at the Long Beach show that year ws right next to ours, and we went out for dinner and drinks (several of them) after the show one nite, and that's when we got permission to use their rudder design! I looked at the Vagabond as a "beer drinking" boat; very stable because of the hard chine, but not too lively. Ron and I took one to a race at Havasu in the good old days, and got hammered by about 4 of my 17's. A good way to lose a race! Thanks for your comments. jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad & Jackie Evans" <rignbig@charter.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 8:14 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research! Jerry, I sail a Vagabond 17, and a M-15. Day sailing, I love the lively attitude of the M-15, reminds me of my younger dingy days, but, starting out on a 4-5 hour cruising day, I prefer the stability of the V-17. On some of my cruising days, I sailed with 2 M-15s, one of which I now own. If the forecast was for building winds the M-15s would start out with their smaller jibs. They both were sailing solo, and did not want to go forward to change. Usually, having roller furling, I would have to unnecessarily reduce my sail area to wait for them. They were slow until, if ever, the wind picked up. So, maybe go tall, and reef the main first. Much easier to do solo, and you donÂ’t sail slow waiting for the wind. Seems to me that if you reef the top down to the jib head, you now have the mast head rig of the 17Â….just my observation, I am not an expert.
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Those 2 M-15 skippers have now teamed up to sail the M-17 SIX. I will be tying a bucket to their transom while they are in the showers. I'm hoping 2 gal. will be enough! jerry wrote:
A Vagabond 17! it was designed by a good friend, Ron Holder, and tooled and buillt by another good friend, Chuck Guy. Ron and I worked out the rudder together that I used on the 15, and he used on his 17. We got the idea from that cat made in Florida- can't remember the name, but it was about 24', and we copied it with their permission. Their display at the Long Beach show that year ws right next to ours, and we went out for dinner and drinks (several of them) after the show one nite, and that's when we got permission to use their rudder design!
I looked at the Vagabond as a "beer drinking" boat; very stable because of the hard chine, but not too lively. Ron and I took one to a race at Havasu in the good old days, and got hammered by about 4 of my 17's. A good way to lose a race!
Thanks for your comments.
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad & Jackie Evans" <rignbig@charter.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 8:14 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research!
Jerry,
I sail a Vagabond 17, and a M-15. Day sailing, I love the lively attitude of the M-15, reminds me of my younger dingy days, but, starting out on a 4-5 hour cruising day, I prefer the stability of the V-17.
On some of my cruising days, I sailed with 2 M-15s, one of which I now own. If the forecast was for building winds the M-15s would start out with their smaller jibs. They both were sailing solo, and did not want to go forward to change. Usually, having roller furling, I would have to unnecessarily reduce my sail area to wait for them. They were slow until, if ever, the wind picked up. So, maybe go tall, and reef the main first. Much easier to do solo, and you donÂ’t sail slow waiting for the wind. Seems to me that if you reef the top down to the jib head, you now have the mast head rig of the 17Â….just my observation, I am not an expert.
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Jerry, I think that a self bailing anchor well with a hinged lid on the foredeck is about the greatest thing since sliced bread. A friend had that arrangement on his Beneteau 235 and the Hardy 20 Family pilot (Pilot house offshore motor cruiser) I had for canal cruising in Germany had one. It is wonderful to have the anchor, rode and dock lines stowed there and not have to drag a muddy anchor and rode around the boat. Once stowed, a couple of buckets of water will wash the anchor clean and drain out through the scupper. Being a traditionalist, I like the looks of the vertical deckhouse bulkhead especially if the deckhouse is rounded like the Cape cod cats. The forward hatch on griselda sure is nice in the Texas heat and I have a wind sock for mine. If I were designing a new boat for myself, it would absolutely, positively have an anchor locker and a forward hatch. My 2 Euros worth. Ron M17 #14, Griselda
From: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 20:48:00 -0700 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research!
A Vagabond 17! it was designed by a good friend, Ron Holder, and tooled and buillt by another good friend, Chuck Guy. Ron and I worked out the rudder together that I used on the 15, and he used on his 17. We got the idea from that cat made in Florida- can't remember the name, but it was about 24', and we copied it with their permission. Their display at the Long Beach show that year ws right next to ours, and we went out for dinner and drinks (several of them) after the show one nite, and that's when we got permission to use their rudder design!
I looked at the Vagabond as a "beer drinking" boat; very stable because of the hard chine, but not too lively. Ron and I took one to a race at Havasu in the good old days, and got hammered by about 4 of my 17's. A good way to lose a race!
Thanks for your comments.
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad & Jackie Evans" <rignbig@charter.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 8:14 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research!
Jerry,
I sail a Vagabond 17, and a M-15. Day sailing, I love the lively attitude of the M-15, reminds me of my younger dingy days, but, starting out on a 4-5 hour cruising day, I prefer the stability of the V-17.
On some of my cruising days, I sailed with 2 M-15s, one of which I now own. If the forecast was for building winds the M-15s would start out with their smaller jibs. They both were sailing solo, and did not want to go forward to change. Usually, having roller furling, I would have to unnecessarily reduce my sail area to wait for them. They were slow until, if ever, the wind picked up. So, maybe go tall, and reef the main first. Much easier to do solo, and you don’t sail slow waiting for the wind. Seems to me that if you reef the top down to the jib head, you now have the mast head rig of the 17….just my observation, I am not an expert.
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_________________________________________________________________ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackT...
Jerry, Here's my .02 worth (maybe only worth .01) I agree with Bill Riker.? Being hard pressed to reach 5' 6", I haven't felt too?uncomfortable?in my M-15.? I too have a?light nylon boom tent. (I would suggest not putting it up in a heavy storm while anchored, inside joke!!!)?I like the idea of opening ports/dorade vent, but would be concerned about long term durability.? Eventually everything?begins to leak. (No wholes, no leaks)??My boat is a 1982 and it's as water tight today as it was the day it left your shop!!!??? No forward hatch maintains the watertight integrity and strength of the hull as well as providing a more workable foredeck.? ? Since I am not considered an adrenaline junky, I'd go with a bit more ballast, proportionately, to?the M-15.? I would vote for the?tall rig if the jib came standard with the reefing option.? I have a standard working jib and do not like changing the headsail while sailing solo.? Reefing the main is easy, so if the jib were as easy to?reef, then I'd vote for the tall rig.??I typically sail in light wind and I would like all the help I could get!!!! Thanks for listening, Skip M-15 1982 #201 Wild Guppy? -----Original Message----- From: jerry <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Thu, Aug 6, 2009 6:26 pm Subject: M_Boats: more market research! More market research! The 16 project is well under way; the design has been sent off for approval, and as soon as I get it I'll start on the tooling. In the meantime, there are more things to be considered so that decisions can be made when appropriate. I don't mean to be a pest, but I'd like to lean on your valuable opinions for more market research. Basically what we have so far is a boat of 16'6" and a beam of 6.6', and a tall 7/8 rig. Closer to the 17 in size than it is the 15. We have worked out the sitting headroom below that seems to be the major criticism of the 15. I'm quite happy that the buyer of this design and I see eye-to- eye on pretty much everything (so far), and what we both want is a fast, seaworthy boat (actually, what I want is a fast, seaworthy boat, and what he wants is a seaworthy, fast boat) and that within reason cost is not a major consideration . In manufacturing, we plan to use more exotic materials and better engineering than anything else on the market. As many of you know I've made most of my living for the last 6 or 8 years designing and tooling what is probably the best line of racing kayaks and outrigger canoes in the world, and I've been forced to stay on the leading edge in using up-to-date materials and techniques, as well as design. Huki's (A Hawaiian word meaning GO ; jawsee Huki.com) most popular and successful surfski (offshore racing kayak) is 22' long and weighs under 20 lbs! They are raced inter-island in Hawaii, all over San Francisco Bay, around Catalina Isl, etc, and the boat is NOT the weak link when it comes to survival. They are totally capable of handling 10' and 12' waves with the correct paddler, which is not me ! I just realized that this really sounds like a marketing come-on , but it's really not and is more a reflection of my enthusiasm. Questions: The cabin, which fits in with the forward hatch. I have drawn the boat with a "Montgomery style" house similar to the existing 15 and 17. A problem i s that there is not room for a "real" forward hatch unless we go to a trunk house type of cabin , with a traditional, more vertical forward panel. This will give us another 4 or 6" of cabin deck space in front of the mast, enough for a fwd hatch, without encroaching on the foredeck. How do you feel about this? Is the forward hatch worth a Hess style house? The only disadvantage of a trunk house is a bit more windage sailing upwind, which is drag. I can live with it and I wonder if some might prefer it. It also has a bit more headroom sitting on the head. Windows. What percentage of you would like the option of opening ports? All the ones I've seen on the market ( and I really haven't paid much attention for years) are pretty traditional and would go well with a trunk house. If we picked a good opening window we would probably design a non-opening port to go with it as standard equipment. In any case we would need to use two windows per side to leave the middle part of the sides of the house uncut, for strength. Any thoughts on this? Personally I'd opt for no fwd hatch, and use a dorade vent which works for me because of where I sail, but I realize that most of you do not sail in CA and Mexico. Also, the slap slap of anchoring stern-to doesn't really bother me when I sleep. I just pretend it's Mom's heartbeat. This is a subtle thing but an ongoing discussion is just where do we put the line on stability versus speed? I have always preferred the tall rig 17 to the normal one because it has a touch more speed. Yes, it has to reef or downshift the jib a bit earlier, but so what? If you sail in an area where it blows 20 regularly I would expect you to feel differently, but how many of us do? I would rather have a spirited boat in the light stuff, but I realize this is just me. With most any fractional rig it works best to go to a smaller headsail before reefing the main, mostly for the sake of forestay tension, but it's not a big deal unless you want to win a race. You 15 owners- would you rather have a bit more ballast and not have the boat quite as lively in the light stuff, or is it about right? How about the 17? How often do you wish you had a tall rig? Gary O, who is as knowledgeable as I, blew the mast on his 17 and had worn out sails, and he replaced the rig with a tall rig. How many of you would do this if fSaced with the same situation? The 15 and the 17 have earned their reputations in three ways; they are well built, they are seaworthy, and they are remarkably fast for their lengths. I really expect to make the 16 as fast as a 17 because of up-to-date design and technology, but it must also be as stable and seaworthy. I have had the thought before that I'd take a 15 anywhere I would a 17, and the new boat needs to be included in this. Any comments? jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Jerry, Glad to hear the M16.5 is progressing so quickly. Here's my 2 cents worth: 1. Life is too short to sail an ugly boat - use the Montgomery Style house. The opening forward hatch would be really nice but I could live without it. I just used mine (on the M17) so that I could get the anchor easily anyway. 2. Yes on the opening ports especially without the opening forward hatch. 3. I would opt against the tall rig in other words I would favor stability over speed. You can usually add more sail but you can't add more ballast. I want a boat I can feel safe with on S.F. Bay. On another note my repair job is progressing nicely. Thanks again for your advice and help. Can't wait to see the new design. Put something on it that will appeal to landlocked wives so I'll have a chance of getting one. Maybe a dishwasher or couch. ken wheeler M15 # 128 ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerry" <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 3:26 PM Subject: M_Boats: more market research!
More market research!
The 16 project is well under way; the design has been sent off for approval, and as soon as I get it I'll start on the tooling. In the meantime, there are more things to be considered so that decisions can be made when appropriate. I don't mean to be a pest, but I'd like to lean on your valuable opinions for more market research. Basically what we have so far is a boat of 16'6" and a beam of 6.6', and a tall 7/8 rig. Closer to the 17 in size than it is the 15. We have worked out the sitting headroom below that seems to be the major criticism of the 15.
I'm quite happy that the buyer of this design and I see eye-to- eye on pretty much everything (so far), and what we both want is a fast, seaworthy boat (actually, what I want is a fast, seaworthy boat, and what he wants is a seaworthy, fast boat) and that within reason cost is not a major consideration . In manufacturing, we plan to use more exotic materials and better engineering than anything else on the market. As many of you know I've made most of my living for the last 6 or 8 years designing and tooling what is probably the best line of racing kayaks and outrigger canoes in the world, and I've been forced to stay on the leading edge in using up-to-date materials and techniques, as well as design. Huki's (A Hawaiian word meaning GO ; jawsee Huki.com) most popular and successful surfski (offshore racing kayak) is 22' long and weighs under 20 lbs! They are raced inter-island in Hawaii, all over San Francisco Bay, around Catalina Isl, etc, and the boat is NOT the weak link when it comes to survival. They are totally capable of handling 10' and 12' waves with the correct paddler, which is not me !
I just realized that this really sounds like a marketing come-on , but it's really not and is more a reflection of my enthusiasm.
Questions:
The cabin, which fits in with the forward hatch. I have drawn the boat with a "Montgomery style" house similar to the existing 15 and 17. A problem is that there is not room for a "real" forward hatch unless we go to a trunk house type of cabin , with a traditional, more vertical forward panel. This will give us another 4 or 6" of cabin deck space in front of the mast, enough for a fwd hatch, without encroaching on the foredeck. How do you feel about this? Is the forward hatch worth a Hess style house? The only disadvantage of a trunk house is a bit more windage sailing upwind, which is drag. I can live with it and I wonder if some might prefer it. It also has a bit more headroom sitting on the head.
Windows. What percentage of you would like the option of opening ports? All the ones I've seen on the market ( and I really haven't paid much attention for years) are pretty traditional and would go well with a trunk house. If we picked a good opening window we would probably design a non-opening port to go with it as standard equipment. In any case we would need to use two windows per side to leave the middle part of the sides of the house uncut, for strength. Any thoughts on this? Personally I'd opt for no fwd hatch, and use a dorade vent which works for me because of where I sail, but I realize that most of you do not sail in CA and Mexico. Also, the slap slap of anchoring stern-to doesn't really bother me when I sleep. I just pretend it's Mom's heartbeat.
This is a subtle thing but an ongoing discussion is just where do we put the line on stability versus speed? I have always preferred the tall rig 17 to the normal one because it has a touch more speed. Yes, it has to reef or downshift the jib a bit earlier, but so what? If you sail in an area where it blows 20 regularly I would expect you to feel differently, but how many of us do? I would rather have a spirited boat in the light stuff, but I realize this is just me. With most any fractional rig it works best to go to a smaller headsail before reefing the main, mostly for the sake of forestay tension, but it's not a big deal unless you want to win a race. You 15 owners- would you rather have a bit more ballast and not have the boat quite as lively in the light stuff, or is it about right? How about the 17? How often do you wish you had a tall rig? Gary O, who is as knowledgeable as I, blew the mast on his 17 and had worn out sails, and he replaced the rig with a tall rig. How many of you would do this if fSaced with the same situation? The 15 and the 17 have earned their reputations in three ways; they are well built, they are seaworthy, and they are remarkably fast for their lengths. I really expect to make the 16 as fast as a 17 because of up-to-date design and technology, but it must also be as stable and seaworthy. I have had the thought before that I'd take a 15 anywhere I would a 17, and the new boat needs to be included in this. Any comments?
jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Wow! I can't wait to see this boat. Here are my thoughts. 1) Montgomery style house (i.e. no opening hatch). 2) Ventilation needs to be superior to the M-15, whether by opening ports or Dorade. If it has good ventilation, it can't hurt sales right? 3) I would favor stability over speed. It wouldn't bother me a bit if the boat were 'slightly' stiffer than my M-15. I have no experience with the M-17. Thanks Jerry for offering a sounding board on these things. Jason Smith M-15 #411 -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of jerry Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 3:27 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: more market research! More market research! The 16 project is well under way; the design has been sent off for approval, and as soon as I get it I'll start on the tooling. In the meantime, there are more things to be considered so that decisions can be made when appropriate. I don't mean to be a pest, but I'd like to lean on your valuable opinions for more market research. Basically what we have so far is a boat of 16'6" and a beam of 6.6', and a tall 7/8 rig. Closer to the 17 in size than it is the 15. We have worked out the sitting headroom below that seems to be the major criticism of the 15. I'm quite happy that the buyer of this design and I see eye-to- eye on pretty much everything (so far), and what we both want is a fast, seaworthy boat (actually, what I want is a fast, seaworthy boat, and what he wants is a seaworthy, fast boat) and that within reason cost is not a major consideration . In manufacturing, we plan to use more exotic materials and better engineering than anything else on the market. As many of you know I've made most of my living for the last 6 or 8 years designing and tooling what is probably the best line of racing kayaks and outrigger canoes in the world, and I've been forced to stay on the leading edge in using up-to-date materials and techniques, as well as design. Huki's (A Hawaiian word meaning GO ; jawsee Huki.com) most popular and successful surfski (offshore racing kayak) is 22' long and weighs under 20 lbs! They are raced inter-island in Hawaii, all over San Francisco Bay, around Catalina Isl, etc, and the boat is NOT the weak link when it comes to survival. They are totally capable of handling 10' and 12' waves with the correct paddler, which is not me ! I just realized that this really sounds like a marketing come-on , but it's really not and is more a reflection of my enthusiasm. Questions: The cabin, which fits in with the forward hatch. I have drawn the boat with a "Montgomery style" house similar to the existing 15 and 17. A problem is that there is not room for a "real" forward hatch unless we go to a trunk house type of cabin , with a traditional, more vertical forward panel. This will give us another 4 or 6" of cabin deck space in front of the mast, enough for a fwd hatch, without encroaching on the foredeck. How do you feel about this? Is the forward hatch worth a Hess style house? The only disadvantage of a trunk house is a bit more windage sailing upwind, which is drag. I can live with it and I wonder if some might prefer it. It also has a bit more headroom sitting on the head. Windows. What percentage of you would like the option of opening ports? All the ones I've seen on the market ( and I really haven't paid much attention for years) are pretty traditional and would go well with a trunk house. If we picked a good opening window we would probably design a non-opening port to go with it as standard equipment. In any case we would need to use two windows per side to leave the middle part of the sides of the house uncut, for strength. Any thoughts on this? Personally I'd opt for no fwd hatch, and use a dorade vent which works for me because of where I sail, but I realize that most of you do not sail in CA and Mexico. Also, the slap slap of anchoring stern-to doesn't really bother me when I sleep. I just pretend it's Mom's heartbeat. This is a subtle thing but an ongoing discussion is just where do we put the line on stability versus speed? I have always preferred the tall rig 17 to the normal one because it has a touch more speed. Yes, it has to reef or downshift the jib a bit earlier, but so what? If you sail in an area where it blows 20 regularly I would expect you to feel differently, but how many of us do? I would rather have a spirited boat in the light stuff, but I realize this is just me. With most any fractional rig it works best to go to a smaller headsail before reefing the main, mostly for the sake of forestay tension, but it's not a big deal unless you want to win a race. You 15 owners- would you rather have a bit more ballast and not have the boat quite as lively in the light stuff, or is it about right? How about the 17? How often do you wish you had a tall rig? Gary O, who is as knowledgeable as I, blew the mast on his 17 and had worn out sails, and he replaced the rig with a tall rig. How many of you would do this if fSaced with the same situation? The 15 and the 17 have earned their reputations in three ways; they are well built, they are seaworthy, and they are remarkably fast for their lengths. I really expect to make the 16 as fast as a 17 because of up-to-date design and technology, but it must also be as stable and seaworthy. I have had the thought before that I'd take a 15 anywhere I would a 17, and the new boat needs to be included in this. Any comments? jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
from a puget sound and san juan island perspective go with the TALL RIG. what i don't know from your description, jerry, is how stiff you have designed the boat. without seeing the hull, knowing ballast, and depth of keel/centerboard it is difficult to know how the boat will react ... guess this is why you conduct sea trials. having the larger cabin for folks to get out of the weather means airflow becomes more important. as a well ventilated cabin is most important when docked, or at anchor, a forward hatch seems, IMO, better than portlights opening on the cabin sides. if a forward hatch is picked choose one that can open both directions. for aesthetics it is hard to say what will look OK - something like the M23s cabin profile or the 'streamlined' M15/17? guess that will need to be shared in drawings, CAD renderings and/or a model. to be honest foredeck work isn't fun on the 15 or the 17. during the MSOG san juan cruise in june i was in a situation where i didn't want to do a headsail change because of the sea condition. how about making roller reefing standard for the headsail? dave scobie M17 #375 SWEET PEA. visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Thu, 8/6/09, jerry <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote: More market research! . . . Questions: The cabin, which fits in with the forward hatch. I have drawn the boat with a "Montgomery style" house similar to the existing 15 and 17. A problem is that there is not room for a "real" forward hatch unless we go to a trunk house type of cabin , with a traditional, more vertical forward panel. This will give us another 4 or 6" of cabin deck space in front of the mast, enough for a fwd hatch, without encroaching on the foredeck. How do you feel about this? Is the forward hatch worth a Hess style house? The only disadvantage of a trunk house is a bit more windage sailing upwind, which is drag. I can live with it and I wonder if some might prefer it. It also has a bit more headroom sitting on the head. Windows. What percentage of you would like the option of opening ports? All the ones I've seen on the market ( and I really haven't paid much attention for years) are pretty traditional and would go well with a trunk house. If we picked a good opening window we would probably design a non-opening port to go with it as standard equipment. In any case we would need to use two windows per side to leave the middle part of the sides of the house uncut, for strength. Any thoughts on this? Personally I'd opt for no fwd hatch, and use a dorade vent which works for me because of where I sail, but I realize that most of you do not sail in CA and Mexico. Also, the slap slap of anchoring stern-to doesn't really bother me when I sleep. I just pretend it's Mom's heartbeat. This is a subtle thing but an ongoing discussion is just where do we put the line on stability versus speed? I have always preferred the tall rig 17 to the normal one because it has a touch more speed. Yes, it has to reef or downshift the jib a bit earlier, but so what? If you sail in an area where it blows 20 regularly I would expect you to feel differently, but how many of us do? I would rather have a spirited boat in the light stuff, but I realize this is just me. With most any fractional rig it works best to go to a smaller headsail before reefing the main, mostly for the sake of forestay tension, but it's not a big deal unless you want to win a race. You 15 owners- would you rather have a bit more ballast and not have the boat quite as lively in the light stuff, or is it about right? How about the 17? How often do you wish you had a tall rig? Gary O, who is as knowledgeable as I, blew the mast on his 17 and had worn out sails, and he replaced the rig with a tall rig. How many of you would do this if fSaced with the same situation? The 15 and the 17 have earned their reputations in three ways; they are well built, they are seaworthy, and they are remarkably fast for their lengths. I really expect to make the 16 as fast as a 17 because of up-to-date design and technology, but it must also be as stable and seaworthy. I have had the thought before that I'd take a 15 anywhere I would a 17, and the new boat needs to be included in this. Any comments? jerry
Let's not get carried away with the stealth racer. For me, first and foremost it must be a very capable cruising boat. Capable enough for a Gulf Stream crossing for a 3 month cruise in the Bahama's. I was in a Catalina 22T with the anchor well. It took too much space out of the forpeak, reduced the foot room by almost 16 inchs and I did not care for it. Stability comes before performance - but I love the performance of my M15G. I would probably favor the tall rig as boats this size mostly coastal cruise (light airs) and can avoid the really nasty stuff and if caught can reef down enough to get to a safe harbor. I increased the sail area of my M15 Gaff cutter from the Bermuda sloop by 30% trying to retain the light air performance and don't regret it at all. With the lower sail plan it handles the gusts quite well and does not have to reef as quickly as I anticipated. If I could get by without an engine I would so keep that light air performance. With a 6' 6" beam it should move pretty well in light air. This is where Jerry's magic comes to the table. The M15 sails like a dinghy but handles some pretty rough seas and weather so maybe a little more stability than the M15. As to ventilation, if you ever have to close yourself up in the M15 cabin it will soon be raining inside so I never close the boat up when I am inside.. I have never had a boat with opening ports so I never knew that they leaked so frequently. If that is the case the deck vent or the hatch is preferable. Most boats I see with hatches seem to take a lot of damage to the mechanism and the edges so I would lean towards a removable deck vent. I think a full dorade box on the deck would be a bit much but would be great if two of them were integrated into the forward corners of the trunk house. I would take my M15 anywhere that an M17 can go but the M17's can't follow the M15s into the shallow areas so make sure it has a sailable shallow draft. I am making a shallow draft rudder with a plate on the bottom to be able to sail in 14" of water. Thanks Doug Kelch --- On Thu, 8/6/09, jerry <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote: More market research! .. .. .. Questions: The cabin, which fits in with the forward hatch. I have drawn the boat with a "Montgomery style" house similar to the existing 15 and 17. A problem is that there is not room for a "real" forward hatch unless we go to a trunk house type of cabin , with a traditional, more vertical forward panel. This will give us another 4 or 6" of cabin deck space in front of the mast, enough for a fwd hatch, without encroaching on the foredeck. How do you feel about this? Is the forward hatch worth a Hess style house? The only disadvantage of a trunk house is a bit more windage sailing upwind, which is drag. I can live with it and I wonder if some might prefer it. It also has a bit more headroom sitting on the head. Windows. What percentage of you would like the option of opening ports? All the ones I've seen on the market ( and I really haven't paid much attention for years) are pretty traditional and would go well with a trunk house. If we picked a good opening window we would probably design a non-opening port to go with it as standard equipment. In any case we would need to use two windows per side to leave the middle part of the sides of the house uncut, for strength. Any thoughts on this? Personally I'd opt for no fwd hatch, and use a dorade vent which works for me because of where I sail, but I realize that most of you do not sail in CA and Mexico. Also, the slap slap of anchoring stern-to doesn't really bother me when I sleep. I just pretend it's Mom's heartbeat. This is a subtle thing but an ongoing discussion is just where do we put the line on stability versus speed? I have always preferred the tall rig 17 to the normal one because it has a touch more speed. Yes, it has to reef or downshift the jib a bit earlier, but so what? If you sail in an area where it blows 20 regularly I would expect you to feel differently, but how many of us do? I would rather have a spirited boat in the light stuff, but I realize this is just me. With most any fractional rig it works best to go to a smaller headsail before reefing the main, mostly for the sake of forestay tension, but it's not a big deal unless you want to win a race. You 15 owners- would you rather have a bit more ballast and not have the boat quite as lively in the light stuff, or is it about right? How about the 17? How often do you wish you had a tall rig? Gary O, who is as knowledgeable as I, blew the mast on his 17 and had worn out sails, and he replaced the rig with a tall rig. How many of you would do this if fSaced with the same situation? The 15 and the 17 have earned their reputations in three ways; they are well built, they are seaworthy, and they are remarkably fast for their lengths. I really expect to make the 16 as fast as a 17 because of up-to-date design and technology, but it must also be as stable and seaworthy. I have had the thought before that I'd take a 15 anywhere I would a 17, and the new boat needs to be included in this. Any comments? jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
I'm with Joe on the deck vents. Maybe the big ones work on mega- yachts but the smaller ones are just toe-stubbers and line grabbers. I've had mixed experience with opening ports. The big bronze ones on my dad's Tahiti Ketch leaked like crazy. The cheapo plastic ones on my Sabre 30 NEVER leaked. How about a single opening port on the front of the cabin trunk? It looks cool and makes sense because it faces forward and catches the breeze when anchored. You can also lead extension cords etc through it. Jim M-17 "Spirit" On Aug 11, 2009, at 9:47 AM, Joe Murphy wrote:
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Hi Joe.... I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze).... Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them. Bob Eeg Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Bob, Is that the same process used for M17's??? A separate question. I'm being coerced into getting stancheons/life lines. What will I find along the side decks when I start drilling? Any wood?? Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" <ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 10:07 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port. Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" <ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch. Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor? Thanks, Bill Wickett M17 #622 On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" < ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
If you forget to dog it down, it'll fly open going down the road...
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:10 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch.
Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" < ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
But that's better than forgetting the tie-down straps and having the whole boat blow off the road!! ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@zoominternet.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:14 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
If you forget to dog it down, it'll fly open going down the road...
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:10 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch.
Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" < ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
On that subject of tie down straps, what are others using? Just a big ratchet strap over the cockpit coamings with a bit of foam under them to keep from rubbing the gelcoat? Any other ideas? Thanks, Bill M17 #622 On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
But that's better than forgetting the tie-down straps and having the whole boat blow off the road!!
----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@zoominternet.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
If you forget to dog it down, it'll fly open going down the road...
-----Original Message-----
From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:10 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch.
Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" < ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Bob's idea of heavy line through cheap foam "noodles" of your favorite color works well, but I still think a trailer with only the front strap secured would go over with the boat if the wind were strong enough. Has anyone heard of a rig tipping over? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Wickett" <billwick@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 11:02 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
On that subject of tie down straps, what are others using? Just a big ratchet strap over the cockpit coamings with a bit of foam under them to keep from rubbing the gelcoat? Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Bill M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
But that's better than forgetting the tie-down straps and having the whole boat blow off the road!!
----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@zoominternet.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
If you forget to dog it down, it'll fly open going down the road...
-----Original Message-----
From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:10 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch.
Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" < ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com > To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com > Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 > Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports > > I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will > eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening > ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one > single > port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means > alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not > cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like > torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During > the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals > with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. > NEVER use it. > I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do > have > to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as > they > do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned > before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air > comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey > books > was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. > Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. > Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery > passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that > you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never > found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath > of > air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit > if > it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall > that > many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few > hours > at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough > a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. > Joe > Seafrog M17 > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
You mean like a loaded semi-trailer littering the side of a highway? Yep. It happens all the time.
"Tom Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> 08/12/2009 3:14 PM >>> Bob's idea of heavy line through cheap foam "noodles" of your favorite color works well, but I still think a trailer with only the front strap secured would go over with the boat if the wind were strong enough. Has anyone heard of a rig tipping over?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Wickett" <billwick@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 11:02 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
On that subject of tie down straps, what are others using? Just a big ratchet strap over the cockpit coamings with a bit of foam under them to keep from rubbing the gelcoat? Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Bill M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
But that's better than forgetting the tie-down straps and having the whole boat blow off the road!!
----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@zoominternet.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
If you forget to dog it down, it'll fly open going down the road...
-----Original Message-----
From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:10 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch.
Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" < ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com > To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com > Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 > Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports > > I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will > eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening > ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one > single > port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means > alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not > cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like > torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During > the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals > with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. > NEVER use it. > I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do > have > to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as > they > do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned > before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air > comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey > books > was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. > Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. > Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery > passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that > you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never > found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath > of > air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit > if > it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall > that > many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few > hours > at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough > a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. > Joe > Seafrog M17 > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I use old mainsheet sections - tie a bowline around the rear of the trailer frame, loop round the stern quarter cleat and back to a truckers hitch a couple of feet infront of the trailer frame. Lean your weight into it and tie it off with a tautline hitch. One on each side. Thanks Doug Kelch --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Bill Wickett <billwick@gmail.com> wrote: From: Bill Wickett <billwick@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission..com> Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 2:02 PM On that subject of tie down straps, what are others using? Just a big ratchet strap over the cockpit coamings with a bit of foam under them to keep from rubbing the gelcoat? Any other ideas? Thanks, Bill M17 #622 On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
But that's better than forgetting the tie-down straps and having the whole boat blow off the road!!
----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@zoominternet.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
If you forget to dog it down, it'll fly open going down the road...
-----Original Message-----
From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:10 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch.
Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" < ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I've been using ratchet straps connecting from the eye on the trailer to the stern cleat. At the bow, Bob made lifting rings that he installed about 2 feet from the bow on each side and I use those. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Wickett" <billwick@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:02 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
On that subject of tie down straps, what are others using? Just a big ratchet strap over the cockpit coamings with a bit of foam under them to keep from rubbing the gelcoat? Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Bill M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
But that's better than forgetting the tie-down straps and having the whole boat blow off the road!!
----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@zoominternet.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
If you forget to dog it down, it'll fly open going down the road...
-----Original Message-----
From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:10 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch.
Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" < ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com > To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com > Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 > Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports > > I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will > eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening > ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one > single > port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means > alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not > cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like > torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During > the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals > with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. > NEVER use it. > I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do > have > to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as > they > do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned > before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air > comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey > books > was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. > Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. > Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery > passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that > you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never > found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath > of > air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit > if > it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall > that > many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few > hours > at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough > a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. > Joe > Seafrog M17 > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
i use two ratchet straps. one goes across the cockpit. second just forward of the cabin across the foredeck. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Bill Wickett <billwick@gmail.com> wrote: On that subject of tie down straps, what are others using? Just a big ratchet strap over the cockpit coamings with a bit of foam under them to keep from rubbing the gelcoat? Any other ideas? Thanks, Bill M17 #622
All this discussion of foods brought me back to the 70's when I used to do a lot of backpacking. In a store in Vienna VA, Appalachian Outfitters, there was a tattered newspaper article about Grandma Gatewood who starting in her 60's hiked the entire length of the Appalachian Trail..... three times. Her food? Dried beef, nuts & Cheese, saltines, and vienna sausage!! She hiked the trail, not in super designer boots, but in Keds sneakers. Carried an army blanket for sleeping, a shower curtain for her shelter, and a rain cape. She carried everything in a sack that she slung over one shoulder. I guess when all was said and done the one question she didn't get from any of her 23 grandchildren was "What's for dinner, Grandma???"" Joe
when in my hiking phase in the late 80s and 90s i read about her ... think it was in BACKPACKER. believe the article was about 'ultralight' backpacking. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote: All this discussion of foods brought me back to the 70's when I used to do a lot of backpacking. In a store in Vienna VA, Appalachian Outfitters, there was a tattered newspaper article about Grandma Gatewood who starting in her 60's hiked the entire length of the Appalachian Trail..... three times. Her food? Dried beef, nuts & Cheese, saltines, and vienna sausage!! She hiked the trail, not in super designer boots, but in Keds sneakers. Carried an army blanket for sleeping, a shower curtain for her shelter, and a rain cape. She carried everything in a sack that she slung over one shoulder. I guess when all was said and done the one question she didn't get from any of her 23 grandchildren was "What's for dinner, Grandma???"" Joe
That's pretty close to my menu in the backcountry and on a boat (with the addition of canned fruit cocktail for a long passage), and it is actually enjoyable. Perhaps some of you have read the book by a guy who singlehanded a Flicka to the South Seas and around to North America. As I recall, he bought a few cases of DintyMoore beef stew and survived on that singular balanced diet. Would Spam have done the trick? As for teak: rails, handholds and companionway slides should absolutely be teak, because beauty is always worth the trouble. Teak decks and varnished cabin exteriors, forget about it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "W David Scobie" <wdscobie@yahoo.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:43 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration when in my hiking phase in the late 80s and 90s i read about her ... think it was in BACKPACKER. believe the article was about 'ultralight' backpacking. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote: All this discussion of foods brought me back to the 70's when I used to do a lot of backpacking. In a store in Vienna VA, Appalachian Outfitters, there was a tattered newspaper article about Grandma Gatewood who starting in her 60's hiked the entire length of the Appalachian Trail..... three times. Her food? Dried beef, nuts & Cheese, saltines, and vienna sausage!! She hiked the trail, not in super designer boots, but in Keds sneakers. Carried an army blanket for sleeping, a shower curtain for her shelter, and a rain cape. She carried everything in a sack that she slung over one shoulder. I guess when all was said and done the one question she didn't get from any of her 23 grandchildren was "What's for dinner, Grandma???"" Joe _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
One of the things I take on my backpack hunting trips (8 or 9 days; usually in one weekend and out the next) is tuna, sealed in a plastic bag. Never had a problem except one nite I almost got et by a bear (well, not really, once he got close enough for my human scent to overcome the smell of the tuna he went into "feet, don't fail me now" mode). I usually put it in cooked rice, with boullion or similar. You can buy it at the local supermarket. What's wrong with a varnished interior? Do it once and it'll stay forever, unlike the exterior?. Besides, it smells good. jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 3:00 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration
That's pretty close to my menu in the backcountry and on a boat (with the addition of canned fruit cocktail for a long passage), and it is actually enjoyable. Perhaps some of you have read the book by a guy who singlehanded a Flicka to the South Seas and around to North America. As I recall, he bought a few cases of DintyMoore beef stew and survived on that singular balanced diet. Would Spam have done the trick? As for teak: rails, handholds and companionway slides should absolutely be teak, because beauty is always worth the trouble. Teak decks and varnished cabin exteriors, forget about it.
----- Original Message ----- From: "W David Scobie" <wdscobie@yahoo.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:43 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration
when in my hiking phase in the late 80s and 90s i read about her ... think it was in BACKPACKER. believe the article was about 'ultralight' backpacking.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Wed, 8/12/09, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
All this discussion of foods brought me back to the 70's when I used to do a lot of backpacking. In a store in Vienna VA, Appalachian Outfitters, there was a tattered newspaper article about Grandma Gatewood who starting in her 60's hiked the entire length of the Appalachian Trail..... three times. Her food? Dried beef, nuts & Cheese, saltines, and vienna sausage!! She hiked the trail, not in super designer boots, but in Keds sneakers. Carried an army blanket for sleeping, a shower curtain for her shelter, and a rain cape. She carried everything in a sack that she slung over one shoulder. I guess when all was said and done the one question she didn't get from any of her 23 grandchildren was "What's for dinner, Grandma???"" Joe
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No exterior woodwork *at all* except perhaps the drop boards (that you can take in the house to do). Interior wood is easy on the eyes and low maintenance. No opening side ports. A self-contained fwd hatch and base flange that can be installed either facing fwd or aft to suit the customer (no fiberglass tooling or separately mounted parts that would prevent swapping the hatch around at a later date. No holes to fill if swapped around) Perhaps interior storage designed to accept standardized storage boxes which could be moved from home to boat and back without having to pack individual items into the boat. Tod Mills M17 #408, 1987 galley model BuscaBrisas
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of jerry Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 6:44 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration
One of the things I take on my backpack hunting trips (8 or 9 days; usually in one weekend and out the next) is tuna, sealed in a plastic bag. Never had a problem except one nite I almost got et by a bear (well, not really, once he got close enough for my human scent to overcome the smell of the tuna he went into "feet, don't fail me now" mode). I usually put it in cooked rice, with boullion or similar. You can buy it at the local supermarket.
What's wrong with a varnished interior? Do it once and it'll stay forever, unlike the exterior?. Besides, it smells good.
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 3:00 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration
That's pretty close to my menu in the backcountry and on a boat (with the addition of canned fruit cocktail for a long passage), and it is actually enjoyable. Perhaps some of you have read the book by a guy who singlehanded a Flicka to the South Seas and around to North America. As I recall, he bought a few cases of DintyMoore beef stew and survived on that singular balanced diet. Would Spam have done the trick? As for teak: rails, handholds and companionway slides should absolutely be teak, because beauty is always worth the trouble. Teak decks and varnished cabin exteriors, forget about it.
----- Original Message ----- From: "W David Scobie" <wdscobie@yahoo.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:43 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration
when in my hiking phase in the late 80s and 90s i read about her ... think it was in BACKPACKER. believe the article was about 'ultralight' backpacking.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Wed, 8/12/09, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
All this discussion of foods brought me back to the 70's when I used to do a lot of backpacking. In a store in Vienna VA, Appalachian Outfitters, there was a tattered newspaper article about Grandma Gatewood who starting in her 60's hiked the entire length of the Appalachian Trail..... three times. Her food? Dried beef, nuts & Cheese, saltines, and vienna sausage!! She hiked the trail, not in super designer boots, but in Keds sneakers. Carried an army blanket for sleeping, a shower curtain for her shelter, and a rain cape. She carried everything in a sack that she slung over one shoulder. I guess when all was said and done the one question she didn't get from any of her 23 grandchildren was "What's for dinner, Grandma???"" Joe
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
Oh and wood rudder works too. Light and stiff. Kickup absolute necessity.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of htmills@zoominternet.net Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 7:04 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration
No exterior woodwork *at all* except perhaps the drop boards (that you can take in the house to do).
Interior wood is easy on the eyes and low maintenance.
No opening side ports. A self-contained fwd hatch and base flange that can be installed either facing fwd or aft to suit the customer (no fiberglass tooling or separately mounted parts that would prevent swapping the hatch around at a later date. No holes to fill if swapped around)
Perhaps interior storage designed to accept standardized storage boxes which could be moved from home to boat and back without having to pack individual items into the boat.
Tod Mills M17 #408, 1987 galley model BuscaBrisas
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of jerry Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 6:44 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration
One of the things I take on my backpack hunting trips (8 or 9 days; usually in one weekend and out the next) is tuna, sealed in a plastic bag. Never had a problem except one nite I almost got et by a bear (well, not really, once he got close enough for my human scent to overcome the smell of the tuna he went into "feet, don't fail me now" mode). I usually put it in cooked rice, with boullion or similar. You can buy it at the local supermarket.
What's wrong with a varnished interior? Do it once and it'll stay forever, unlike the exterior?. Besides, it smells good.
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 3:00 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration
That's pretty close to my menu in the backcountry and on a boat (with the addition of canned fruit cocktail for a long passage), and it is actually enjoyable. Perhaps some of you have read the book by a guy who singlehanded a Flicka to the South Seas and around to North America. As I recall, he bought a few cases of DintyMoore beef stew and survived on that singular balanced diet. Would Spam have done the trick? As for teak: rails, handholds and companionway slides should absolutely be teak, because beauty is always worth the trouble. Teak decks and varnished cabin exteriors, forget about it.
----- Original Message ----- From: "W David Scobie" <wdscobie@yahoo.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:43 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration
when in my hiking phase in the late 80s and 90s i read about her ... think it was in BACKPACKER. believe the article was about 'ultralight' backpacking.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Wed, 8/12/09, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
All this discussion of foods brought me back to the 70's when I used to do a lot of backpacking. In a store in Vienna VA, Appalachian Outfitters, there was a tattered newspaper article about Grandma Gatewood who starting in her 60's hiked the entire length of the Appalachian Trail..... three times. Her food? Dried beef, nuts & Cheese, saltines, and vienna sausage!! She hiked the trail, not in super designer boots, but in Keds sneakers. Carried an army blanket for sleeping, a shower curtain for her shelter, and a rain cape. She carried everything in a sack that she slung over one shoulder. I guess when all was said and done the one question she didn't get from any of her 23 grandchildren was "What's for dinner, Grandma???"" Joe
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
Speaking of solo sailing, in a M17 no less, I wonder what Willie took to eat on his voyage from San Diego to East Africa. Maybe Bob can tell us.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 6:00 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration
That's pretty close to my menu in the backcountry and on a boat (with the addition of canned fruit cocktail for a long passage), and it is actually enjoyable. Perhaps some of you have read the book by a guy who singlehanded a Flicka to the South Seas and around to North America. As I recall, he bought a few cases of DintyMoore beef stew and survived on that singular balanced diet. Would Spam have done the trick? As for teak: rails, handholds and companionway slides should absolutely be teak, because beauty is always worth the trouble. Teak decks and varnished cabin exteriors, forget about it.
----- Original Message ----- From: "W David Scobie" <wdscobie@yahoo.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:43 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration
when in my hiking phase in the late 80s and 90s i read about her ... think it was in BACKPACKER. believe the article was about 'ultralight' backpacking.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Wed, 8/12/09, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
All this discussion of foods brought me back to the 70's when I used to do a lot of backpacking. In a store in Vienna VA, Appalachian Outfitters, there was a tattered newspaper article about Grandma Gatewood who starting in her 60's hiked the entire length of the Appalachian Trail..... three times. Her food? Dried beef, nuts & Cheese, saltines, and vienna sausage!! She hiked the trail, not in super designer boots, but in Keds sneakers. Carried an army blanket for sleeping, a shower curtain for her shelter, and a rain cape. She carried everything in a sack that she slung over one shoulder. I guess when all was said and done the one question she didn't get from any of her 23 grandchildren was "What's for dinner, Grandma???"" Joe
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Joe, You awakened some old memories! I grew up in Vienna and used to hang out in that store in the mid seventies. It was the only place to go for the good stuff and it had its own distinctive charm. Sure are a lot of sailor/backpackers around here. Mark -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Murphy Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:33 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration All this discussion of foods brought me back to the 70's when I used to do a lot of backpacking. In a store in Vienna VA, Appalachian Outfitters, there was a tattered newspaper article about Grandma Gatewood who starting in her 60's hiked the entire length of the Appalachian Trail..... three times. Her food? Dried beef, nuts & Cheese, saltines, and vienna sausage!! She hiked the trail, not in super designer boots, but in Keds sneakers. Carried an army blanket for sleeping, a shower curtain for her shelter, and a rain cape. She carried everything in a sack that she slung over one shoulder. I guess when all was said and done the one question she didn't get from any of her 23 grandchildren was "What's for dinner, Grandma???"" Joe _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2295 - Release Date: 08/12/09 18:12:00
I'm not sure they are still open. I used to look forward every year for them to have their closeout and rental sales when they'd sell off their rental equipment. It was the only way I could afford to buy stuff. Probably spent too much money eatin chili dogs at the Vienna Inn!!! Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roberta Dvorscak" <edarts93@earthlink.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 11:31 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration
Joe, You awakened some old memories! I grew up in Vienna and used to hang out in that store in the mid seventies. It was the only place to go for the good stuff and it had its own distinctive charm. Sure are a lot of sailor/backpackers around here. Mark
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Murphy Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:33 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration
All this discussion of foods brought me back to the 70's when I used to do a
lot of backpacking. In a store in Vienna VA, Appalachian Outfitters, there was a tattered newspaper article about Grandma Gatewood who starting in her 60's hiked the entire length of the Appalachian Trail..... three times. Her
food? Dried beef, nuts & Cheese, saltines, and vienna sausage!! She hiked the trail, not in super designer boots, but in Keds sneakers. Carried an army blanket for sleeping, a shower curtain for her shelter, and a rain cape. She carried everything in a sack that she slung over one shoulder. I guess when all was said and done the one question she didn't get from any of her 23 grandchildren was "What's for dinner, Grandma???"" Joe
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2295 - Release Date: 08/12/09 18:12:00
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
ya'all are talking about that shop like old-time seattle folks speak of the original REI store. that old REI store had character and a 'feeling' that made one WANT to go into the outdoors. the REI's current downtown seattle 'mega mart' store just isn't the same. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Thu, 8/13/09, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote: I'm not sure they are still open. I used to look forward every year for them to have their closeout and rental sales when they'd sell off their rental equipment. It was the only way I could afford to buy stuff. Probably spent too much money eatin chili dogs at the Vienna Inn!!! Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roberta Dvorscak" <edarts93@earthlink.net> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 11:31 PM
Joe, You awakened some old memories! I grew up in Vienna and used to hang out in that store in the mid seventies. It was the only place to go for the good stuff and it had its own distinctive charm. Sure are a lot of sailor/backpackers around here. Mark
-----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Joe Murphy Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:33 PM
All this discussion of foods brought me back to the 70's when I used to do a
lot of backpacking. In a store in Vienna VA, Appalachian Outfitters, there was a tattered newspaper article about Grandma Gatewood who starting in her 60's hiked the entire length of the Appalachian Trail..... three times. Her
food? Dried beef, nuts & Cheese, saltines, and vienna sausage!! She hiked the trail, not in super designer boots, but in Keds sneakers. Carried an army blanket for sleeping, a shower curtain for her shelter, and a rain cape. She carried everything in a sack that she slung over one shoulder. I guess when all was said and done the one question she didn't get from any of her 23 grandchildren was "What's for dinner, Grandma???"" Joe
Today I can't tell if I'm in an REI store or Abercombe & Finch. ----- Original Message ----- From: "W David Scobie" <wdscobie@yahoo.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 9:43 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: outdoor supply stores ya'all are talking about that shop like old-time seattle folks speak of the original REI store. that old REI store had character and a 'feeling' that made one WANT to go into the outdoors. the REI's current downtown seattle 'mega mart' store just isn't the same. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Thu, 8/13/09, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote: I'm not sure they are still open. I used to look forward every year for them to have their closeout and rental sales when they'd sell off their rental equipment. It was the only way I could afford to buy stuff. Probably spent too much money eatin chili dogs at the Vienna Inn!!! Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roberta Dvorscak" <edarts93@earthlink.net> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 11:31 PM
Joe, You awakened some old memories! I grew up in Vienna and used to hang out in that store in the mid seventies. It was the only place to go for the good stuff and it had its own distinctive charm. Sure are a lot of sailor/backpackers around here. Mark
-----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Joe Murphy Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:33 PM
All this discussion of foods brought me back to the 70's when I used to do a
lot of backpacking. In a store in Vienna VA, Appalachian Outfitters, there was a tattered newspaper article about Grandma Gatewood who starting in her 60's hiked the entire length of the Appalachian Trail..... three times. Her
food? Dried beef, nuts & Cheese, saltines, and vienna sausage!! She hiked the trail, not in super designer boots, but in Keds sneakers. Carried an army blanket for sleeping, a shower curtain for her shelter, and a rain cape. She carried everything in a sack that she slung over one shoulder. I guess when all was said and done the one question she didn't get from any of her 23 grandchildren was "What's for dinner, Grandma???"" Joe
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I hope I'm not violating any copywrite laws, but I had gotten enough responses to synopsize the article in the Nov/Dec 2008 Good Old Boat. So here it is in a nutshell. I gleaned the pieces that I thought were oriented to our issue. "Chilled food is a luxury, not a necessity. Keep most "refrigerate after opening foods' at room temperature for as long as it take to use them up. (Keep in mind, the McBrides are full time liveaboards). Eggs - although Lin Pardey mentions coating eggs with Vaseline or sodium silicate and has kept eggs for 3 months by turning them three times a week, Connie admits that she doesn't go through all this. She just keeps them in what used to be their on board refrigerator and without doing anything else they keep for three weeks. Just to make sure, she cracks them in a separate bowl before using them in any mix. She claims that she has lost less than a dozen eggs over the past four years. Mayonaise - if you never put a dirty utensil in the jar. In fact her rule was to never put any utensil of any kind in the jar, but to shake out what you need. Not only did her mayo last up to a month but the even ate leftover potato sald the lollowing day for lunch. She buys plastic jars of Majo to make it easier and recommends that if you can find it, to get the squeeze bottles. Same rules for jelly which can last for three weeks. Dairy Products - Butter and margarine must be handled carefully. Sticks of margaine do not melt and will keep for up to a month. She stores each pound in a clean plastic food storage container, date it, and rotate the sotck. Margarine in a a generally melts at a lower timperature a nd the container do not seal well enough to prevent accidents. Butter melts more easily but if you enjoy using it for baking it will keep for a while before it turns rancid. (We keep our butter out all the time at home and have never had a problem. JM) She buys cheese in small portins and store each one in a separate airtight container and tries to use it in a few days after it's opened. Unopened, it does not mold for weeks, though it does get sharper. Harde cheeses, such as Parmesan and Romano, stay fresh much longer. Milk - she used to buy UHT milk (Parmalat) until a few of the boxes spoilled. After opening they lasted less than a day. She no carries canned cream, evaporated milk, nad condensed milk for cooking and baking. For everday milk they use Nido or other brands of powdered whole milk. Used for cereal, coffee, and for cooking and it tasts ... like warm milk. Meat- In port, they buy fresh and cook it within a few hours. She wraps forzen meat in layers of towels and stores it in an insulated cold/hot bag for up to 24 hours before cooking. Canned meat is used often. Spam, forned beef, canned tuna, chicken, salmon, etc. She suggests canned chicken turkey and beef from Werling and Sones www.werlingandsons.com. Chorizo and ham tidbits keep for several weeks before using. ONce opened, she treats them like fresh meat and cooks them immediately. She bought a cured ham. After opeing it the first time, she wipes the ham down with vinegar. Anytime she uses some, she wipes the newly exposed area with vinegar. As an alternative to meat, she substitutes several alternatives. Soya chunks (textured vegetable protein) is available in different sizes. Small size is a suitable substitute for ground beef. Her favorite meat alternatives are beans, i.e., lentils, spit peas, garbanzo beans, pigeon peas, and black beans. (Hey, anybody notice she didn't include Bush's?? JM) Use totillas or pita bread for tacos and chimichangas. She recommends Janet Horsley's "Bean Cuisine". Fresh Produce Challenges - Remove any plastic wrap or bags immediately and keep produce separated. Onions are best stored in the light definitely not with potatoes, which should be stored in the dark, preferably with apples. Apples should never be stored with citrus fruits. The sense of smell is a well used tool when living without refrigeration. She gives everything a sniff test before eating it: eggs, mayo, jelly, leftovers, and even canned food.Some foods mold overnight, i.e., sliced tomatos. So, that's the jist of her article. I don't know about you but I'm gonna go get a piece of fried chicken! Joe
Joe, Much better, but I suspect that straps on a Pacific trailer with curved bunks are for peace of mind rather than utility (unless you hit a really big pothole at high speed) . Lifting a one-ton boat off the bunks would take a side wind strong enough to blow the boat and trailer over; so my policy is to find a campground or hotel rather than brave side winds over 40 knots. Tom Jenkins (BTW, why didn't I name my boat White Knuckles?) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Murphy" <seagray@embarqmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:51 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
But that's better than forgetting the tie-down straps and having the whole boat blow off the road!!
----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@zoominternet.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:14 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
If you forget to dog it down, it'll fly open going down the road...
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:10 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch.
Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" < ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
On the rear opening version, in a breeze, with the boat anchored and the bow swinging into the wind, I find the wind creates some negative pressure behind the partially opened hatch and it draws pretty well. Air flows forward, up and out, vs. down and in. I actually prefer that at night. And we are talking all of 3 feet of distance........but it sure makes a difference in the comfort level on warm evenings. Howard On Aug 12, 2009, at 12:14 PM, <htmills@zoominternet.net> wrote:
If you forget to dog it down, it'll fly open going down the road...
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:10 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch.
Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" < ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
The hatch on my last boat hinged both ways. I tried it with the hinge on the front ..... once! I hinged it from the rear so it would open face forward and there was no comparison. I left it hinged that way for the remaining 5 years. Even if I wasn't sleeping, it provided enough breeze to work in the cabin and even the galley. Now, having said that, the cabin size on the M17 is considerably smaller and a draft approach may work. I haven't slept in it yet but when I spent the better part of a week installing electrics, I had to have a fan. The only time I got a breeze what when the wind was coming from behind.... and I think most of that came through the companionway. Joe Seafrog ps .. but I will have my wind shoot just in case. jm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:57 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
On the rear opening version, in a breeze, with the boat anchored and the bow swinging into the wind, I find the wind creates some negative pressure behind the partially opened hatch and it draws pretty well. Air flows forward, up and out, vs. down and in. I actually prefer that at night. And we are talking all of 3 feet of distance........but it sure makes a difference in the comfort level on warm evenings.
Howard
On Aug 12, 2009, at 12:14 PM, <htmills@zoominternet.net> wrote:
If you forget to dog it down, it'll fly open going down the road...
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:10 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch.
Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" < ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
my folk's choey lee had a 'two way' forward hatch. can't think of one time it was used 'facing aft' ... always set so the hatch would catch air coming across the bow. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site: http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote: The hatch on my last boat hinged both ways. I tried it with the hinge on the front ..... once! I hinged it from the rear so it would open face forward and there was no comparison. I left it hinged that way for the remaining 5 years. Even if I wasn't sleeping, it provided enough breeze to work in the cabin and even the galley. Now, having said that, the cabin size on the M17 is considerably smaller and a draft approach may work. I haven't slept in it yet but when I spent the better part of a week installing electrics, I had to have a fan. The only time I got a breeze what when the wind was coming from behind.... and I think most of that came through the companionway. Joe Seafrog ps .. but I will have my wind shoot just in case. jm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:57 PM
On the rear opening version, in a breeze, with the boat anchored and the bow swinging into the wind, I find the wind creates some negative pressure behind the partially opened hatch and it draws pretty well. Air flows forward, up and out, vs. down and in. I actually prefer that at night. And we are talking all of 3 feet of distance........but it sure makes a difference in the comfort level on warm evenings.
Howard
I'm thinking that the Venturi effect from wind blowing by the open ports would draw air through any open hatch. If a 17 rides okay to a stern anchor, I would also try that before punching new holes in the boat. Tom Jenkins ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:57 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
On the rear opening version, in a breeze, with the boat anchored and the bow swinging into the wind, I find the wind creates some negative pressure behind the partially opened hatch and it draws pretty well. Air flows forward, up and out, vs. down and in. I actually prefer that at night. And we are talking all of 3 feet of distance........but it sure makes a difference in the comfort level on warm evenings.
Howard
On Aug 12, 2009, at 12:14 PM, <htmills@zoominternet.net> wrote:
If you forget to dog it down, it'll fly open going down the road...
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:10 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch.
Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" < ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/12/09 06:09:00
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I keep studying mine and trying to visualize if the hinged hatch would clear the mast step. It looks tight. Maybe Bob E could check one out in his shop FTHOI. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Wickett" <billwick@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:10 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch.
Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 #622
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Just to add to Joe's experience, I have had my Nor'Sea 31 years, and have never had a leak in the 9 portlights. I was told by the factory to alternate tighhtening the dogs to ensure that the window would not deform, and it apparently worked. I have replaced all the gaskets only once, about 5 years ago. My conclusion? A quality bronze port looks great, lets in air, and does not leak if operated properly. Poorly made ports are junk and should be recycled. As for my M17, the ports have had no greenwater test, but they have been through prolonged heavy rain with no leaks. My conclusion concerning ventilation is to have opening ports and a rear-hinged forward hatch, using a boom tent so the main hatch can be open during rain in hot weather. I also like the idea of some type of makeshift device to shed rainwater off an open port.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" < ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
Hi Joe....
I never had complaints about my portlites on the Nor'Sea 27. They never leaked. When I built them (assembled them from pieces that were cast off my match-plates and molds, I would send them to the burnisher's for 5 days of tumbling to smooth and polish the bronze)....
Before I drilled the holes for the Bronze Shaft I installed the new gaskets (custom made by Goodyear tire and rubber) I had a fixture that would press the frame into the spigot and compress the rubber gasket using a large vise. I would drill the holes and tap the shaft home. Worked like a charm. I built 2100 of them.
Bob Eeg
Building Lyle C. Hess Sailing vessels
From: seagray@embarqmail.com
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: more market research and leaky ports
I've seen quite a few comments about concerns that opening ports will eventually leak. I had a NorSea 27 aft cabin with 9 (count 'em) 9 opening ports. When I sold her last summer she was 17 years old and not one single port leaked. I made sure they were dogged down properly which means alternating the tighteneing sequence from one dog to the other and not cranking one down all the way tight before tightening the other, like torqueing down a valve cover. I never had problems with the seals. During the five years I owned SeaGray, I opened each port and cleaned the seals with vinegar and put a light coat of mineral oil. Vaseline is a killer. NEVER use it. I have 4 opening ports on my M17, Seafrog, and so far, so good. You do have to remember to wipe up any water on the outside before opening them, as they do tend to accumulate a couple of ounces of rain/dew. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have a boat without them. It's amazing how much air comes through a 6" hole. One tip I got from reading one of the Pardey books was to get a 6" plastic flower pot and cut out about a third of one side. Stuff it in the port upside down and you have ventilation if it rains. Regarding dorades. I've been very lucky to crew on a number of delivery passages on some really nice yachts. (Nothing like being on a boat that you'll never own with the owner a thousand miles away) Anyway, I never found one boat with a dorade that ever provided more than a baby's breath of air unless the wind was over 20kts. Granted they would help a teensy bit if it was raining where you couldn't have a hatch open but I don't recall that many nights of rain and when it did rain it was usually over in a few hours at most. I still prefer a forward opening hatch. And if that isn't enough a wind shoot is the answer to a poor man's air conditioning. Joe Seafrog M17
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
the forward hatch on Motu iti ( http://www.msogphotosite.com/motuiti.html ) has been reversed . don't know is this was done by Eldor & Dorothy Eisen, or Motu iti's prior owner. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Bill Wickett <billwick@gmail.com> wrote: Has anyone converted their M17 forward hatch to a rear hinged version? Either flipping the existing one around or putting in an aftermarket hatch. Pros and cons besides improved air flow at anchor? Thanks, Bill Wickett M17 #622
If any of you saved your Nov/Dec issue of Good Old Boat, there is a great article by a Connie McBride entitled "Fridgeless Cruising". It has a lot of great ideas from a full time cruising couple with 2 boys that decided not to replace their on board refrigerator when it finally went kapoot. If there's enought interest, I can provide Cliff Notes. Joe
yes that is a very good article. some of the choices on how store are done 'wrong' you can make yourself VERY sick. i need to find a source for eggs ... hard to find ones that haven't spend some time in a fridge. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Tue, 8/11/09, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote: If any of you saved your Nov/Dec issue of Good Old Boat, there is a great article by a Connie McBride entitled "Fridgeless Cruising". It has a lot of great ideas from a full time cruising couple with 2 boys that decided not to replace their on board refrigerator when it finally went kapoot. If there's enought interest, I can provide Cliff Notes. Joe
Research has drifted me up a new channel. Pickled meats and eggs. Like the kind you find in big gallon jars behind the bar. The product has to be fully cooked before it goes in the pickle, but you apparently don't need a pressure cooker for this. They would be hard boiled eggs.......but those could be used for a lot of things. Salt load may get to be a problem over time. I can remember the Pardey's talking about storing hard cheeses in jars of olive oil. Just fill the jar and cover em with the oil. One thing about all this that is starting to concern me when these canning/pickling options require glass jars. I don't like to keep much actual glass on board, out of fear it will get tossed around and broken. Wine, beer, rum and tequila bottles being the obvious exception to that rule. We have friends who are keeping 10 chickens. They are awash with fresh eggs. I intend to give them a try around home, turning them every couple days. Initially, it may be wise to try a lot of this stuff at home when access to stomach pumps is not so far away. h On Aug 11, 2009, at 12:42 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
yes that is a very good article. some of the choices on how store are done 'wrong' you can make yourself VERY sick. i need to find a source for eggs ... hard to find ones that haven't spend some time in a fridge. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Tue, 8/11/09, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
If any of you saved your Nov/Dec issue of Good Old Boat, there is a great article by a Connie McBride entitled "Fridgeless Cruising". It has a lot of great ideas from a full time cruising couple with 2 boys that decided not to replace their on board refrigerator when it finally went kapoot. If there's enought interest, I can provide Cliff Notes. Joe
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Eggs can last a LONG time unrefrigerated. I've heard that it is best if they are never refrigerated (as opposed being refrigerated then left unrefrigerated) but I can't verify that. I've experimented with them and have had fresh eggs out on a counter *cheep cheep* for weeks with no spoilage (even though they had been previously refrigerated). I haven't noticed any *cheep* ill effects. Tod Mills M17 #408, 1987 galley model BuscaBrisas
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Howard Audsley Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:50 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: No Refrigeration Article
Research has drifted me up a new channel. Pickled meats and eggs. Like the kind you find in big gallon jars behind the bar. The product has to be fully cooked before it goes in the pickle, but you apparently don't need a pressure cooker for this. They would be hard boiled eggs.......but those could be used for a lot of things. Salt load may get to be a problem over time.
I can remember the Pardey's talking about storing hard cheeses in jars of olive oil. Just fill the jar and cover em with the oil.
One thing about all this that is starting to concern me when these canning/pickling options require glass jars. I don't like to keep much actual glass on board, out of fear it will get tossed around and broken. Wine, beer, rum and tequila bottles being the obvious exception to that rule.
We have friends who are keeping 10 chickens. They are awash with fresh eggs. I intend to give them a try around home, turning them every couple days. Initially, it may be wise to try a lot of this stuff at home when access to stomach pumps is not so far away.
h
On Aug 11, 2009, at 12:42 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
yes that is a very good article.
some of the choices on how store are done 'wrong' you can make yourself VERY sick.
i need to find a source for eggs ... hard to find ones that haven't spend some time in a fridge.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Tue, 8/11/09, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
If any of you saved your Nov/Dec issue of Good Old Boat, there is a great article by a Connie McBride entitled "Fridgeless Cruising". It has a lot of great ideas from a full time cruising couple with 2 boys that decided not to replace their on board refrigerator when it finally went kapoot. If there's enought interest, I can provide Cliff Notes. Joe
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/11/09 06:10:00
10 hens and no rooster, so no "cheeps" expected! : ) (and brown eggs to boot)
More years ago than I like to admit, I served aboard a Polaris submarine (Henry Clay, SSBN 625), and we always stored unrefrigerated eggs stacked in cardboard cases on the lower deck of the missile compartment. We laid planks on top of the boxes so we could walk on them. They pretty much lasted for the entire sixty day patrol. Towards the end of the patrol, though, we always cracked them into a bowl, one at a time, because about one out of twenty came out green. By that point of the patrol, eggs weren't very popular, because everyone on the boat knew how old they were, and assumed that they tasted stale. As soon as the patrol ended, everyone started eating eggs again, with great gusto, assuming that we had loaded fresh ones from the tender. What didn't realize, was that they were enjoying the same eggs we had been hauling around unrefrigerated for the last two months, When we loaded the eggs before leaving on patrol, they were delivered in a refrigerated truck, so I assume they had been refrigerated for some time. Also, since the cardboard cases were stacked three deep, the eggs weren't turned or rotated during storage. That's my eggsperience with egg storage. Bill Day M15 336 "Gee Whiz!" (No missiles on this boat) Sent from my iPhone On Aug 11, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
Research has drifted me up a new channel. Pickled meats and eggs. Like the kind you find in big gallon jars behind the bar. The product has to be fully cooked before it goes in the pickle, but you apparently don't need a pressure cooker for this. They would be hard boiled eggs.......but those could be used for a lot of things. Salt load may get to be a problem over time.
I can remember the Pardey's talking about storing hard cheeses in jars of olive oil. Just fill the jar and cover em with the oil.
One thing about all this that is starting to concern me when these canning/pickling options require glass jars. I don't like to keep much actual glass on board, out of fear it will get tossed around and broken. Wine, beer, rum and tequila bottles being the obvious exception to that rule.
We have friends who are keeping 10 chickens. They are awash with fresh eggs. I intend to give them a try around home, turning them every couple days. Initially, it may be wise to try a lot of this stuff at home when access to stomach pumps is not so far away.
h
On Aug 11, 2009, at 12:42 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
yes that is a very good article.
some of the choices on how store are done 'wrong' you can make yourself VERY sick.
i need to find a source for eggs ... hard to find ones that haven't spend some time in a fridge.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Tue, 8/11/09, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
If any of you saved your Nov/Dec issue of Good Old Boat, there is a great article by a Connie McBride entitled "Fridgeless Cruising". It has a lot of great ideas from a full time cruising couple with 2 boys that decided not to replace their on board refrigerator when it finally went kapoot. If there's enought interest, I can provide Cliff Notes. Joe
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I would like to see the article Thanks Captain Jim M-15 Pelican -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Murphy Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 10:21 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: No Refrigeration Article If any of you saved your Nov/Dec issue of Good Old Boat, there is a great article by a Connie McBride entitled "Fridgeless Cruising". It has a lot of great ideas from a full time cruising couple with 2 boys that decided not to replace their on board refrigerator when it finally went kapoot. If there's enought interest, I can provide Cliff Notes. Joe _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
More Opinions! First things first: Sailing performance - I vote for more ballast and a taller rig (with three reef points on the main). I certainly don't hanker for a taller rig on my M-17 in San Francisco Bay - but I've also sailed Puget and the Chesapeake. You can bet I'd like a tall rig when trailering to those places. Besides, those of us who regularly sail in 20 knot winds are going to be reefing anyway. Nothing beats a hatch for ventilation. But the companionway and fore hatches on boats this size are practically on top of each other. The forward hatch on my M-17 gets little use (but again, I'm in cool, breezy San Francisco Bay). If I were gunkholing Chesapeake oyster- beds during a windless Virginia summer I'd probably sleep in the cockpit anyway. So, I vote you lose the foredeck hatch and give the cabin-top the Montgomery treatment. You can put in opening ports if you promise me that they'll never, never leak. I'm with Shawn on the cockpit tent / enclosure. These make a big difference on boats twice this size. Decent cockpit canvas is on the Christmas list for my M-17. Jim Poulakis M-17 "Spirit" On Aug 6, 2009, at 3:26 PM, jerry wrote:
More market research!
The 16 project is well under way; the design has been sent off for approval, and as soon as I get it I'll start on the tooling. In the meantime, there are more things to be considered so that decisions can be made when appropriate. I don't mean to be a pest, but I'd like to lean on your valuable opinions for more market research. Basically what we have so far is a boat of 16'6" and a beam of 6.6', and a tall 7/8 rig. Closer to the 17 in size than it is the 15. We have worked out the sitting headroom below that seems to be the major criticism of the 15.
I'm quite happy that the buyer of this design and I see eye-to- eye on pretty much everything (so far), and what we both want is a fast, seaworthy boat (actually, what I want is a fast, seaworthy boat, and what he wants is a seaworthy, fast boat) and that within reason cost is not a major consideration . In manufacturing, we plan to use more exotic materials and better engineering than anything else on the market. As many of you know I've made most of my living for the last 6 or 8 years designing and tooling what is probably the best line of racing kayaks and outrigger canoes in the world, and I've been forced to stay on the leading edge in using up-to-date materials and techniques, as well as design. Huki's (A Hawaiian word meaning GO ; jawsee Huki.com) most popular and successful surfski (offshore racing kayak) is 22' long and weighs under 20 lbs! They are raced inter-island in Hawaii, all over San Francisco Bay, around Catalina Isl, etc, and the boat is NOT the weak link when it comes to survival. They are totally capable of handling 10' and 12' waves with the correct paddler, which is not me !
I just realized that this really sounds like a marketing come-on , but it's really not and is more a reflection of my enthusiasm.
Questions:
The cabin, which fits in with the forward hatch. I have drawn the boat with a "Montgomery style" house similar to the existing 15 and 17. A problem is that there is not room for a "real" forward hatch unless we go to a trunk house type of cabin , with a traditional, more vertical forward panel. This will give us another 4 or 6" of cabin deck space in front of the mast, enough for a fwd hatch, without encroaching on the foredeck. How do you feel about this? Is the forward hatch worth a Hess style house? The only disadvantage of a trunk house is a bit more windage sailing upwind, which is drag. I can live with it and I wonder if some might prefer it. It also has a bit more headroom sitting on the head.
Windows. What percentage of you would like the option of opening ports? All the ones I've seen on the market ( and I really haven't paid much attention for years) are pretty traditional and would go well with a trunk house. If we picked a good opening window we would probably design a non-opening port to go with it as standard equipment. In any case we would need to use two windows per side to leave the middle part of the sides of the house uncut, for strength. Any thoughts on this? Personally I'd opt for no fwd hatch, and use a dorade vent which works for me because of where I sail, but I realize that most of you do not sail in CA and Mexico. Also, the slap slap of anchoring stern-to doesn't really bother me when I sleep. I just pretend it's Mom's heartbeat.
This is a subtle thing but an ongoing discussion is just where do we put the line on stability versus speed? I have always preferred the tall rig 17 to the normal one because it has a touch more speed. Yes, it has to reef or downshift the jib a bit earlier, but so what? If you sail in an area where it blows 20 regularly I would expect you to feel differently, but how many of us do? I would rather have a spirited boat in the light stuff, but I realize this is just me. With most any fractional rig it works best to go to a smaller headsail before reefing the main, mostly for the sake of forestay tension, but it's not a big deal unless you want to win a race. You 15 owners- would you rather have a bit more ballast and not have the boat quite as lively in the light stuff, or is it about right? How about the 17? How often do you wish you had a tall rig? Gary O, who is as knowledgeable as I, blew the mast on his 17 and had worn out sails, and he replaced the rig with a tall rig. How many of you would do this if fSaced with the same situation? The 15 and the 17 have earned their reputations in three ways; they are well built, they are seaworthy, and they are remarkably fast for their lengths. I really expect to make the 16 as fast as a 17 because of up-to-date design and technology, but it must also be as stable and seaworthy. I have had the thought before that I'd take a 15 anywhere I would a 17, and the new boat needs to be included in this. Any comments?
jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Hey, Jerry: It's exciting to hear that the 16 project is moving forward! Here are my responses to your questions: * I like the look of the Montgomery-style house and would prefer it over the trunk house type. However, I use the forward hatch on my M-17 a lot when cruising and appreciate the added ventilation and light. It sure makes a great screened skylight and star-viewing port when we're at anchor. So if it came down to a Montgomery-style house or a forward hatch, I'd choose the latter. * Since I enjoy a well-ventilated cabin, I'd also pay for the option of opening ports if they were offered. I think traditional opening ports on this type of boat look great too. * Regarding speed/stability, I wouldn't want to sacrifice stability for more speed. I like the tradeoff my standard-rig M-17 offers now -- a nice balance of speed and stability. On Lake Michigan, the wind often seems to blow hard or not at all, and it's often gusty, especially in the spring. So I wouldn't want a boat that's more tender. Many years ago I owned a Precision 21, which sailed very well but was not nearly as stable as the M boats in higher winds. * Use of exotic materials (carbon, Kevlar, etc.?) to create a lighter, stronger boat sounds great. Would the average do-it-yourselfer still be able to make repairs with epoxy, glass and other readily available materials? * Unlike some folks, I like teak trim (I'm not talking excessive here) and think its natural beauty and warmth goes especially well with traditional-style boats. After laying on several coats of high-quality varnish, my trim looks great and hasn't been a maintenance chore. Thanks for asking. We'll look forward to future updates! Gordon M-17 "Sapphire" Milwaukee On Aug 6, 2009, at 5:26 PM, jerry wrote:
More market research!
The 16 project is well under way; the design has been sent off for approval, and as soon as I get it I'll start on the tooling. In the meantime, there are more things to be considered so that decisions can be made when appropriate. I don't mean to be a pest, but I'd like to lean on your valuable opinions for more market research. Basically what we have so far is a boat of 16'6" and a beam of 6.6', and a tall 7/8 rig. Closer to the 17 in size than it is the 15. We have worked out the sitting headroom below that seems to be the major criticism of the 15.
I'm quite happy that the buyer of this design and I see eye-to- eye on pretty much everything (so far), and what we both want is a fast, seaworthy boat (actually, what I want is a fast, seaworthy boat, and what he wants is a seaworthy, fast boat) and that within reason cost is not a major consideration . In manufacturing, we plan to use more exotic materials and better engineering than anything else on the market. As many of you know I've made most of my living for the last 6 or 8 years designing and tooling what is probably the best line of racing kayaks and outrigger canoes in the world, and I've been forced to stay on the leading edge in using up- to-date materials and techniques, as well as design. Huki's (A Hawaiian word meaning GO ; jawsee Huki.com) most popular and successful surfski (offshore racing kayak) is 22' long and weighs under 20 lbs! They are raced inter-island in Hawaii, all over San Francisco Bay, around Catalina Isl, etc, and the boat is NOT the weak link when it comes to survival. They are totally capable of handling 10' and 12' waves with the correct paddler, which is not me !
I just realized that this really sounds like a marketing come-on , but it's really not and is more a reflection of my enthusiasm.
Questions:
The cabin, which fits in with the forward hatch. I have drawn the boat with a "Montgomery style" house similar to the existing 15 and 17. A problem is that there is not room for a "real" forward hatch unless we go to a trunk house type of cabin , with a traditional, more vertical forward panel. This will give us another 4 or 6" of cabin deck space in front of the mast, enough for a fwd hatch, without encroaching on the foredeck. How do you feel about this? Is the forward hatch worth a Hess style house? The only disadvantage of a trunk house is a bit more windage sailing upwind, which is drag. I can live with it and I wonder if some might prefer it. It also has a bit more headroom sitting on the head.
Windows. What percentage of you would like the option of opening ports? All the ones I've seen on the market ( and I really haven't paid much attention for years) are pretty traditional and would go well with a trunk house. If we picked a good opening window we would probably design a non-opening port to go with it as standard equipment. In any case we would need to use two windows per side to leave the middle part of the sides of the house uncut, for strength. Any thoughts on this? Personally I'd opt for no fwd hatch, and use a dorade vent which works for me because of where I sail, but I realize that most of you do not sail in CA and Mexico. Also, the slap slap of anchoring stern-to doesn't really bother me when I sleep. I just pretend it's Mom's heartbeat.
This is a subtle thing but an ongoing discussion is just where do we put the line on stability versus speed? I have always preferred the tall rig 17 to the normal one because it has a touch more speed. Yes, it has to reef or downshift the jib a bit earlier, but so what? If you sail in an area where it blows 20 regularly I would expect you to feel differently, but how many of us do? I would rather have a spirited boat in the light stuff, but I realize this is just me. With most any fractional rig it works best to go to a smaller headsail before reefing the main, mostly for the sake of forestay tension, but it's not a big deal unless you want to win a race. You 15 owners- would you rather have a bit more ballast and not have the boat quite as lively in the light stuff, or is it about right? How about the 17? How often do you wish you had a tall rig? Gary O, who is as knowledgeable as I, blew the mast on his 17 and had worn out sails, and he replaced the rig with a tall rig. How many of you would do this if fSaced with the same situation? The 15 and the 17 have earned their reputations in three ways; they are well built, they are seaworthy, and they are remarkably fast for their lengths. I really expect to make the 16 as fast as a 17 because of up-to-date design and technology, but it must also be as stable and seaworthy. I have had the thought before that I'd take a 15 anywhere I would a 17, and the new boat needs to be included in this. Any comments?
jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Hi Jerry I look to this proposed boat as potentially solving problems with the boats I have owned though a used M-15 or used Com-Pac Sun Cat may be my next choice as the price of this new one may be beyond my reach. My Potter 15 was a favorite in many ways but I needed a comfortable unobstructed berth for one or two and its ventilation for the Chesapeake near me or Florida, a favorite destination, was impossibly poor. 1. Thus ventilation via a forward hatch or forward opening port and side ports when beaching or a dock leaves one not facing the wind. Screens, perhaps as an option, are also needed 2. Space for two to sleep with comfort and sufficient cockpit so that two couples or one or two persons with grandkids can enjoy short day trips. My current Egret, a Dovekie 21, solves these problems but adds others. I prefer its rig to a Marconi rig but not all do so this needs to be an option. Leeboards do work well but again that would be far from the Montgomery tradition. Its extensive canvas exposes it to vandalism and expensive wear and tear. 3. Thus a traditional cockpit, large but with excellent scuppers, and an enclosed cabin for self righting and rescue as well as security on the road and on the water. A screened cockpit tent as an option? 4. Rig alternatives could include a spritsail, a Chinese lugsail, or a single high tech sail as tried briefly on the Seaward Fox. Each could be furnished with an unstayed mast. Easy to use single handed reefing. 5. I am willing to accept, as I was not in the past the stub keel and centerboard Montgomery and others have chosen for easy of use, stability, and safety though resent the greater draft for sailing and launching. I am considering the Sun Cat but it lacks positive foam flotation and its ventilation is poor. Further, looking at the many and interesting responses might I vote 6. Trunk cabin with forward hatch. 7. Some teak trim both for looks and easy of replacement. If one must give up some of these pieces please consider stainless steel or even Starboard but not fake wood. 8. An easy to use for even the less fit permanently mounted boarding ladder. It would be a plus if it worked well while the boat was on the trailer - perhaps with one added short stool on the ground but in water ease is essential. 9. Tested positive foam flotation. Tested self righting. 10. An outboard mount strong enough to permit the outboard to remain on the boat for trailering. A safe cockpit locker for fuel storage draining outside the hull. This could also be used for propane. Thanks for both listening and stimulating the debate. I suspect other manufactures may be hovering as well. With carbon footprints and energy shortages and global warming, can we add a positive hope that small boats, well designed, may become a sustainable future for those who can't give up wind and open water. Peace, Cliff in Marysville, PA
participants (24)
-
Bill -
Bill Wickett -
Bob From California -
Brad & Jackie -
Brad & Jackie Evans
-
Clifford Dillmann -
David Thomason -
Doug Kelch -
Gordon Gilbert -
Howard Audsley -
htmills＠zoominternet.net -
James Poulakis -
Jason A. Smith -
jerry -
Jim Sadler -
Joe Murphy -
Ken Wheeler -
Roberta Dvorscak -
Ronnie Keeler -
Shawn Boles -
Tom Jenkins -
W David Scobie -
wcampion＠aol.com -
William B Riker