Sailing even with a moderate breeze makes Spirit's rudder hum loud enough to drown out the Pillar Point fog horn. The rudder is new and doesn't seem to be warped. Is there a trick to stop this or is it just a Monty thing? Jim Poulakis "Spirit" (M17)
Hi, Jim: I just experienced a similar thing on a sail yesterday. In my case (I'm not sure if your setup is the same as my 1983 model), the steel rod that the rudder hinges on had ridden up when I raised the rudder previously. Then when I lowered it, the rod did not go down completely with the rudder, leaving the rod short and out of the lowest gudgeon (right word?). This has happened before, and when I pushed down the rod completely (so the cotter ring can't go any lower) the humming went away. I determined yesterday that I just need to ensure that the rod goes all the way down with the rudder every time I lower it for a sail. Have a great weekend! Gordon M-17 "Sapphire" Milwaukee On Sep 27, 2008, at 2:20 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Sailing even with a moderate breeze makes Spirit's rudder hum loud enough to drown out the Pillar Point fog horn. The rudder is new and doesn't seem to be warped. Is there a trick to stop this or is it just a Monty thing?
Jim Poulakis "Spirit" (M17)
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The rod on my boat has been machined a bit smaller near the bottom so a portion of the rod extends beyond the lower gudgeon, there is a hole through the rod that a snap ring or pin can be inserted to prevent the rod from going up when you raise the rudder. I can snap a picture of this if the description is unclear, just let me know. --Chad On Sep 27, 2008, at 9:12 AM, Gordon Gilbert wrote:
Hi, Jim: I just experienced a similar thing on a sail yesterday. In my case (I'm not sure if your setup is the same as my 1983 model), the steel rod that the rudder hinges on had ridden up when I raised the rudder previously. Then when I lowered it, the rod did not go down completely with the rudder, leaving the rod short and out of the lowest gudgeon (right word?). This has happened before, and when I pushed down the rod completely (so the cotter ring can't go any lower) the humming went away. I determined yesterday that I just need to ensure that the rod goes all the way down with the rudder every time I lower it for a sail.
Have a great weekend!
Gordon M-17 "Sapphire" Milwaukee
On Sep 27, 2008, at 2:20 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Sailing even with a moderate breeze makes Spirit's rudder hum loud enough to drown out the Pillar Point fog horn. The rudder is new and doesn't seem to be warped. Is there a trick to stop this or is it just a Monty thing?
Jim Poulakis "Spirit" (M17)
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Another cotter ring at the lower end of the rod would work for me, I think. Thanks! Gordon On Sep 27, 2008, at 9:31 AM, Chad Parrish wrote:
The rod on my boat has been machined a bit smaller near the bottom so a portion of the rod extends beyond the lower gudgeon, there is a hole through the rod that a snap ring or pin can be inserted to prevent the rod from going up when you raise the rudder. I can snap a picture of this if the description is unclear, just let me know.
--Chad
On Sep 27, 2008, at 9:12 AM, Gordon Gilbert wrote:
Hi, Jim: I just experienced a similar thing on a sail yesterday. In my case (I'm not sure if your setup is the same as my 1983 model), the steel rod that the rudder hinges on had ridden up when I raised the rudder previously. Then when I lowered it, the rod did not go down completely with the rudder, leaving the rod short and out of the lowest gudgeon (right word?). This has happened before, and when I pushed down the rod completely (so the cotter ring can't go any lower) the humming went away. I determined yesterday that I just need to ensure that the rod goes all the way down with the rudder every time I lower it for a sail.
Have a great weekend!
Gordon M-17 "Sapphire" Milwaukee
On Sep 27, 2008, at 2:20 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Sailing even with a moderate breeze makes Spirit's rudder hum loud enough to drown out the Pillar Point fog horn. The rudder is new and doesn't seem to be warped. Is there a trick to stop this or is it just a Monty thing?
Jim Poulakis "Spirit" (M17)
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Thanks Gordon, Spirit is less then a year old and is equipped with the stepped- diameter rudder rod. Still, the rod may be a contributer to the harmonics, so next time I'll check this more closely . Hey, there's nothing more fun then hanging over the stern and fidgeting with rudder parts while sailing down a narrow, crowded channel right? Jim M17 "Spirit" On Sep 27, 2008, at 7:12 AM, Gordon Gilbert wrote:
Hi, Jim: I just experienced a similar thing on a sail yesterday. In my case (I'm not sure if your setup is the same as my 1983 model), the steel rod that the rudder hinges on had ridden up when I raised the rudder previously. Then when I lowered it, the rod did not go down completely with the rudder, leaving the rod short and out of the lowest gudgeon (right word?). This has happened before, and when I pushed down the rod completely (so the cotter ring can't go any lower) the humming went away. I determined yesterday that I just need to ensure that the rod goes all the way down with the rudder every time I lower it for a sail.
Have a great weekend!
Gordon M-17 "Sapphire" Milwaukee
On Sep 27, 2008, at 2:20 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Sailing even with a moderate breeze makes Spirit's rudder hum loud enough to drown out the Pillar Point fog horn. The rudder is new and doesn't seem to be warped. Is there a trick to stop this or is it just a Monty thing?
Jim Poulakis "Spirit" (M17)
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Hi- Thought I'd remark about the rod and vibration questions. Until about the last half of the 80's we made the rods out of half-inch stainless rod, and retained them at the top gudgeon with a staionless cotter key above and below the gudgeon. The stainless rods were problematic in that they would sometimes gall and get really sticky. If this happens, the only cure is a good polishing with wet/dry sandpaper, then you're good to go for awhile. In the late 80's we made two imp[rovments; we went to bronze rods, which have a low coefficient or friction with stainless and not only slide much better but they have never galled to my knowlege. Wheneve3r you have to replace a rod I'd strongly suggest you use bronze. Thnere are different kinds of bronze and any will do but aluminum bronze and silicone bronze have the best reputations. Monel is also good but very hard to find. At about the same time somebody (probably not me) had the bright idea to have the end of the rod turned down to a half inch and using a smaller hol,e in the bottom gudgeon. This was a worthwhile improvement because the rod could no longer go "bombs away" and drop thru the gudgeons if the operater got careless when handling the rudder. Another helpful comment, if you ever have to replace the gudgeons, is to make sure that they are perfectly aligned when re-installing them. Bolt on the top and bottom ones temporarily, then drop in the rod, stringing the center gudgeon on the rod, and mark and shim the low one. Remove everything, dust them off, then bed and tighten. Don't use silicone; use polyurethane. Rudder vibration is caused by a fat and rounded trailing edge. Slop in the system doesn't help, but the root cause is the trailing edge. If you are having this problem, the best solution is to take off all the hardware from the rudder and get out the sander A power plane will work if you're good with it, but it's pretty brutal. Take the trailing edge down to no more than an 8th inch, and leave the edge flat, not rounded. The water wants to come off the trailing edge cleanly, and not turbulate (pretty good word I just came up with!). Use SPAR varnish to refinish and at least four coats, sanding between each one. (The last time I bought varnish I noticed afterwards that it was was polyurethane. I went back and challenged the saleslady to a fist fight and she told me that all oil based paints have been phased out, possibly just in good old CA. I knew that this happened several years ago with paint, but it now must include varnish. I hope she was lying but she probably wasn't. Bitch, bitch, bitch. jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Singing Rudder
Thanks Gordon,
Spirit is less then a year old and is equipped with the stepped- diameter rudder rod. Still, the rod may be a contributer to the harmonics, so next time I'll check this more closely . Hey, there's nothing more fun then hanging over the stern and fidgeting with rudder parts while sailing down a narrow, crowded channel right?
Jim M17 "Spirit"
On Sep 27, 2008, at 7:12 AM, Gordon Gilbert wrote:
Hi, Jim: I just experienced a similar thing on a sail yesterday. In my case (I'm not sure if your setup is the same as my 1983 model), the steel rod that the rudder hinges on had ridden up when I raised the rudder previously. Then when I lowered it, the rod did not go down completely with the rudder, leaving the rod short and out of the lowest gudgeon (right word?). This has happened before, and when I pushed down the rod completely (so the cotter ring can't go any lower) the humming went away. I determined yesterday that I just need to ensure that the rod goes all the way down with the rudder every time I lower it for a sail.
Have a great weekend!
Gordon M-17 "Sapphire" Milwaukee
On Sep 27, 2008, at 2:20 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Sailing even with a moderate breeze makes Spirit's rudder hum loud enough to drown out the Pillar Point fog horn. The rudder is new and doesn't seem to be warped. Is there a trick to stop this or is it just a Monty thing?
Jim Poulakis "Spirit" (M17)
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First I'd heard of this was in "Royce's SAILING ILLUSTRATED, Volume 1", bottom of page 134. "The trailing edge of the wide rudder at force 3 vibrated considerably, which eased when it was rounded. We had a similar vibration which disappeared after the edges were sanded. When new bottom paint is added, our rudder will vibrate for approximately a month, then stop". I have noticed the same thing with new bottom paint. If you think about it, the vibration is likely caused by a harmonic of some subtle cause of unbalanced lift on one side, which breaks down at some point, allowing the flow to force the rudder back to it's trailing aspect, lift is generated again, etc. Inspect your blade and/or run your hand over the trailing edges to see if you can see or feel any subtle bumps in the varnish or edge. If you find one, sand it smooth. Look at it under low light conditions, shining a flashlight down the edge. Shadows will appear if it's not perfectly smooth. They do not all do it. Howard On Sep 27, 2008, at 2:20 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Sailing even with a moderate breeze makes Spirit's rudder hum loud enough to drown out the Pillar Point fog horn. The rudder is new and doesn't seem to be warped. Is there a trick to stop this or is it just a Monty thing?
Jim Poulakis "Spirit" (M17)
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To clarify, that should be a sharp trailing edge, just as Jerry points out, the edges are not rounded. The quote was from the book. I took that to mean the side of the rudder near the trailing edge, not the edge itself. The bottom paint thing stands. Howard On Sep 27, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Howard Audsley wrote:
First I'd heard of this was in "Royce's SAILING ILLUSTRATED, Volume 1", bottom of page 134.
"The trailing edge of the wide rudder at force 3 vibrated considerably, which eased when it was rounded. We had a similar vibration which disappeared after the edges were sanded. When new bottom paint is added, our rudder will vibrate for approximately a month, then stop".
I have noticed the same thing with new bottom paint. If you think about it, the vibration is likely caused by a harmonic of some subtle cause of unbalanced lift on one side, which breaks down at some point, allowing the flow to force the rudder back to it's trailing aspect, lift is generated again, etc.
Inspect your blade and/or run your hand over the trailing edges to see if you can see or feel any subtle bumps in the varnish or edge. If you find one, sand it smooth. Look at it under low light conditions, shining a flashlight down the edge. Shadows will appear if it's not perfectly smooth.
They do not all do it.
Howard
On Sep 27, 2008, at 2:20 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Sailing even with a moderate breeze makes Spirit's rudder hum loud enough to drown out the Pillar Point fog horn. The rudder is new and doesn't seem to be warped. Is there a trick to stop this or is it just a Monty thing?
Jim Poulakis "Spirit" (M17)
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Jerry, Howard, Doug Gordon, & Chad: Thanks for the insight. I just checked Spirit's rudder. The trailing edge is cleanly squared off and about 1/4 inch wide for most of its length. The rudder is about six months old and in very good (but not perfect) condition. A careful sanding that brings the edge down to 1/8" (per Jerry's recommendation) and a few coats of varnish sound like good line items for the Winter Project List. As reference for anyone else looking into this phenomena : Spirit was constructed in 2008 and her bottom has not been sanded, nor painted with anti-fouling. She has the standard rudder with the "turned down" rudder rod that Jerry described, and the rod appears to be chrome plated bronze. Jim M17 "Spirit" On Sep 27, 2008, at 1:19 PM, Howard Audsley wrote:
To clarify, that should be a sharp trailing edge, just as Jerry points out, the edges are not rounded. The quote was from the book. I took that to mean the side of the rudder near the trailing edge, not the edge itself. The bottom paint thing stands.
Howard
On Sep 27, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Howard Audsley wrote:
First I'd heard of this was in "Royce's SAILING ILLUSTRATED, Volume 1", bottom of page 134.
"The trailing edge of the wide rudder at force 3 vibrated considerably, which eased when it was rounded. We had a similar vibration which disappeared after the edges were sanded. When new bottom paint is added, our rudder will vibrate for approximately a month, then stop".
I have noticed the same thing with new bottom paint. If you think about it, the vibration is likely caused by a harmonic of some subtle cause of unbalanced lift on one side, which breaks down at some point, allowing the flow to force the rudder back to it's trailing aspect, lift is generated again, etc.
Inspect your blade and/or run your hand over the trailing edges to see if you can see or feel any subtle bumps in the varnish or edge. If you find one, sand it smooth. Look at it under low light conditions, shining a flashlight down the edge. Shadows will appear if it's not perfectly smooth.
They do not all do it.
Howard
On Sep 27, 2008, at 2:20 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Sailing even with a moderate breeze makes Spirit's rudder hum loud enough to drown out the Pillar Point fog horn. The rudder is new and doesn't seem to be warped. Is there a trick to stop this or is it just a Monty thing?
Jim Poulakis "Spirit" (M17)
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... and Gary too. On Sep 27, 2008, at 9:51 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Jerry, Howard, Doug Gordon, & Chad:
Thanks for the insight. I just checked Spirit's rudder. The trailing edge is cleanly squared off and about 1/4 inch wide for most of its length. The rudder is about six months old and in very good (but not perfect) condition. A careful sanding that brings the edge down to 1/8" (per Jerry's recommendation) and a few coats of varnish sound like good line items for the Winter Project List.
As reference for anyone else looking into this phenomena : Spirit was constructed in 2008 and her bottom has not been sanded, nor painted with anti-fouling. She has the standard rudder with the "turned down" rudder rod that Jerry described, and the rod appears to be chrome plated bronze.
Jim M17 "Spirit"
On Sep 27, 2008, at 1:19 PM, Howard Audsley wrote:
To clarify, that should be a sharp trailing edge, just as Jerry points out, the edges are not rounded. The quote was from the book. I took that to mean the side of the rudder near the trailing edge, not the edge itself. The bottom paint thing stands.
Howard
On Sep 27, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Howard Audsley wrote:
First I'd heard of this was in "Royce's SAILING ILLUSTRATED, Volume 1", bottom of page 134.
"The trailing edge of the wide rudder at force 3 vibrated considerably, which eased when it was rounded. We had a similar vibration which disappeared after the edges were sanded. When new bottom paint is added, our rudder will vibrate for approximately a month, then stop".
I have noticed the same thing with new bottom paint. If you think about it, the vibration is likely caused by a harmonic of some subtle cause of unbalanced lift on one side, which breaks down at some point, allowing the flow to force the rudder back to it's trailing aspect, lift is generated again, etc.
Inspect your blade and/or run your hand over the trailing edges to see if you can see or feel any subtle bumps in the varnish or edge. If you find one, sand it smooth. Look at it under low light conditions, shining a flashlight down the edge. Shadows will appear if it's not perfectly smooth.
They do not all do it.
Howard
On Sep 27, 2008, at 2:20 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Sailing even with a moderate breeze makes Spirit's rudder hum loud enough to drown out the Pillar Point fog horn. The rudder is new and doesn't seem to be warped. Is there a trick to stop this or is it just a Monty thing?
Jim Poulakis "Spirit" (M17)
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I too have a 2008 M-17 that I just recently sanded, primed, and antifouled. If I can provide any comments let me know. You can email me off line at seagray@embarqmail.com Regards, Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 12:51 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Singing Rudder
Jerry, Howard, Doug Gordon, & Chad:
Thanks for the insight. I just checked Spirit's rudder. The trailing edge is cleanly squared off and about 1/4 inch wide for most of its length. The rudder is about six months old and in very good (but not perfect) condition. A careful sanding that brings the edge down to 1/8" (per Jerry's recommendation) and a few coats of varnish sound like good line items for the Winter Project List.
As reference for anyone else looking into this phenomena : Spirit was constructed in 2008 and her bottom has not been sanded, nor painted with anti-fouling. She has the standard rudder with the "turned down" rudder rod that Jerry described, and the rod appears to be chrome plated bronze.
Jim M17 "Spirit"
On Sep 27, 2008, at 1:19 PM, Howard Audsley wrote:
To clarify, that should be a sharp trailing edge, just as Jerry points out, the edges are not rounded. The quote was from the book. I took that to mean the side of the rudder near the trailing edge, not the edge itself. The bottom paint thing stands.
Howard
On Sep 27, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Howard Audsley wrote:
First I'd heard of this was in "Royce's SAILING ILLUSTRATED, Volume 1", bottom of page 134.
"The trailing edge of the wide rudder at force 3 vibrated considerably, which eased when it was rounded. We had a similar vibration which disappeared after the edges were sanded. When new bottom paint is added, our rudder will vibrate for approximately a month, then stop".
I have noticed the same thing with new bottom paint. If you think about it, the vibration is likely caused by a harmonic of some subtle cause of unbalanced lift on one side, which breaks down at some point, allowing the flow to force the rudder back to it's trailing aspect, lift is generated again, etc.
Inspect your blade and/or run your hand over the trailing edges to see if you can see or feel any subtle bumps in the varnish or edge. If you find one, sand it smooth. Look at it under low light conditions, shining a flashlight down the edge. Shadows will appear if it's not perfectly smooth.
They do not all do it.
Howard
On Sep 27, 2008, at 2:20 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Sailing even with a moderate breeze makes Spirit's rudder hum loud enough to drown out the Pillar Point fog horn. The rudder is new and doesn't seem to be warped. Is there a trick to stop this or is it just a Monty thing?
Jim Poulakis "Spirit" (M17)
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The trailing edge needs to be sharper. The hum is from the vortexes sheading off it. Gary Sent from my iPhone On Sep 27, 2008, at 3:20 AM, James Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote:
Sailing even with a moderate breeze makes Spirit's rudder hum loud enough to drown out the Pillar Point fog horn. The rudder is new and doesn't seem to be warped. Is there a trick to stop this or is it just a Monty thing?
Jim Poulakis "Spirit" (M17)
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This is a question for those of you M-17 owners with electrical components mounted to the outside of the cabin bulkhead such as depth sounders, lights for the compass, etc? Where/how did you route your wiring back to the battery compartment under the V berth to keep them out of the way and inconspicuous?? I can't figure out a good way to jump from the interior of the deck to get under the pan. Thanks Joe Seafrog M17
Here is a pic of Busca's fishfinder wire routing: http://www.htmills.com/images/LF-fishfinderrear.jpg Basically, the wires run to under the cockpit where they split up with the power jogging over to a hole in the side of the galley (could be a berth) and the transducer wire going to the transducer in the skeg. Hope this helps, Tod Mills M17 #408, 1987 galley model BuscaBrisas
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Murphy Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:29 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Wire routing
This is a question for those of you M-17 owners with electrical components mounted to the outside of the cabin bulkhead such as depth sounders, lights for the compass, etc? Where/how did you route your wiring back to the battery compartment under the V berth to keep them out of the way and inconspicuous?? I can't figure out a good way to jump from the interior of the deck to get under the pan.
Thanks Joe Seafrog M17
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Thanks Tod. The picture makes it. Joe Seafrog M-17 651 ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@zoominternet.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:53 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Wire routing
Here is a pic of Busca's fishfinder wire routing:
http://www.htmills.com/images/LF-fishfinderrear.jpg
Basically, the wires run to under the cockpit where they split up with the power jogging over to a hole in the side of the galley (could be a berth) and the transducer wire going to the transducer in the skeg.
Hope this helps,
Tod Mills M17 #408, 1987 galley model BuscaBrisas
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Murphy Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:29 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Wire routing
This is a question for those of you M-17 owners with electrical components mounted to the outside of the cabin bulkhead such as depth sounders, lights for the compass, etc? Where/how did you route your wiring back to the battery compartment under the V berth to keep them out of the way and inconspicuous?? I can't figure out a good way to jump from the interior of the deck to get under the pan.
Thanks Joe Seafrog M17
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Not too long ago someone posted the website of a company that makes tailor made covers for the M-17's but I have lost the address. Could that kind and caring person refresh my memory. Thanks, Joe Seafrog M17 651
participants (8)
-
Chad Parrish -
Gary M Hyde -
Gordon Gilbert -
Howard Audsley -
htmills＠zoominternet.net -
James Poulakis -
jerry -
Joe Murphy