For the fun of racing fast fans on the list
point vs. speed. and is 40 degrees really possible This afternoon I watched from the shore line two small sailboats racing each other. (outside Tampa Bay) One was a Monty 17 (looked like a reddish or dark orange stripe, bright sun ! ) the other looked like a Hunter 22. both had about the and speed but the Hunter was constantly able to point higher, But why should that be. Not being able to talk to the skippers I do not know if the board was down completely. But just how much difference would the board all the way down make, would it improve the pointing by ? % or ?degrees.
Mike, My guess is that having the board up loses you a good ten degrees. And, I found while sailing with John Edwards how important it is to load the (big) rudder up too with some weather helm. That said, I doubt a 17 could do as well as a good deep fin keeler like a J24 no matter what. Tod -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of MC Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 7:05 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: For the fun of racing fast fans on the list point vs. speed. and is 40 degrees really possible This afternoon I watched from the shore line two small sailboats racing each other. (outside Tampa Bay) One was a Monty 17 (looked like a reddish or dark orange stripe, bright sun ! ) the other looked like a Hunter 22. both had about the and speed but the Hunter was constantly able to point higher, But why should that be. Not being able to talk to the skippers I do not know if the board was down completely. But just how much difference would the board all the way down make, would it improve the pointing by ? % or ?degrees. _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Tod, I agree with your 10 deg opinion altho it could easily be 15 deg in some conditions. What is this about loading some weather helm into the equation - I always thought a slight weather helm to neutral was best to avoid rudder drag! Are you saying that give all other trim to be optimum that a moderate weather helm helps you point better than a light weather helm? Thanks Doug --- htmills@bright.net wrote:
Mike,
My guess is that having the board up loses you a good ten degrees. And, I found while sailing with John Edwards how important it is to load the (big) rudder up too with some weather helm.
That said, I doubt a 17 could do as well as a good deep fin keeler like a J24 no matter what.
Tod
-----Original Message----- From:
montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com
[mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com]
On Behalf Of MC Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 7:05 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: For the fun of racing fast fans on the list
point vs. speed. and is 40 degrees really possible
This afternoon I watched from the shore line two small sailboats racing each other. (outside Tampa Bay) One was a Monty 17 (looked like a reddish or dark orange stripe, bright sun ! ) the other looked like a Hunter 22. both had about the and speed but the Hunter was constantly able to point higher, But why should that be. Not being able to talk to the skippers I do not know if the board was down completely. But just how much difference would the board all the way down make, would it improve the pointing by ? % or ?degrees.
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
_______________________________________________
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Hi, Doug! I don't have the sweet spot figured out; John or Jerry or some of the others could give you a much better answer, but Miss T's mast is significantly raked aft more than Busca's and she knocks Busca's socks off to weather, even with reduced sail and the windage of a bimini. The 17's big rudder is important as a lifting foil and takes some of the load off the keel which, not being a deep fin loses out some in efficiency. At some point you can over-do it though, and end up with a loss in performance. Tod -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Doug Kelch Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 8:54 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: RE: M_Boats: For the fun of racing fast fans on the list Tod, I agree with your 10 deg opinion altho it could easily be 15 deg in some conditions. What is this about loading some weather helm into the equation - I always thought a slight weather helm to neutral was best to avoid rudder drag! Are you saying that give all other trim to be optimum that a moderate weather helm helps you point better than a light weather helm? Thanks Doug --- htmills@bright.net wrote:
Mike,
My guess is that having the board up loses you a good ten degrees. And, I found while sailing with John Edwards how important it is to load the (big) rudder up too with some weather helm.
That said, I doubt a 17 could do as well as a good deep fin keeler like a J24 no matter what.
Tod
-----Original Message----- From:
montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com
[mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com]
On Behalf Of MC Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 7:05 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: For the fun of racing fast fans on the list
point vs. speed. and is 40 degrees really possible
This afternoon I watched from the shore line two small sailboats racing each other. (outside Tampa Bay) One was a Monty 17 (looked like a reddish or dark orange stripe, bright sun ! ) the other looked like a Hunter 22. both had about the and speed but the Hunter was constantly able to point higher, But why should that be. Not being able to talk to the skippers I do not know if the board was down completely. But just how much difference would the board all the way down make, would it improve the pointing by ? % or ?degrees.
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
"Alina" has a Jerry-Montgomery-modified rudder . . . I think deeper and more foil-shaped . . . And a carbon-fiber boom . . . She must be the fastest M17 sailing . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 9:15 PM Subject: for the fun of racing fast fans on the list Hi, Doug! I don't have the sweet spot figured out; John or Jerry or some of the others could give you a much better answer, but Miss T's mast is significantly raked aft more than Busca's and she knocks Busca's socks off to weather, even with reduced sail and the windage of a bimini. The 17's big rudder is important as a lifting foil and takes some of the load off the keel which, not being a deep fin loses out some in efficiency. At some point you can over-do it though, and end up with a loss in performance. Tod -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Doug Kelch Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 8:54 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: for the fun of racing fast fans on the list Tod, I agree with your 10 deg opinion altho it could easily be 15 deg in some conditions. What is this about loading some weather helm into the equation - I always thought a slight weather helm to neutral was best to avoid rudder drag! Are you saying that give all other trim to be optimum that a moderate weather helm helps you point better than a light weather helm? Thanks Doug
Did you have to re-cut the mainsail so the boom would still be level with deck, or get the jib stay lengthen to fit because of this significant rake and how much is significant about 10 Degrees or more? .... ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 9:15 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: For the fun of racing fast fans on the list Hi, Doug! I don't have the sweet spot figured out; John or Jerry or some of the others could give you a much better answer, but Miss T's mast is significantly raked aft more than Busca's and she knocks Busca's socks off to weather, even with reduced sail and the windage of a bimini. The 17's big rudder is important as a lifting foil and takes some of the load off the keel which, not being a deep fin loses out some in efficiency. At some point you can over-do it though, and end up with a loss in performance. Tod -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Doug Kelch Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 8:54 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: RE: M_Boats: For the fun of racing fast fans on the list Tod, I agree with your 10 deg opinion altho it could easily be 15 deg in some conditions. What is this about loading some weather helm into the equation - I always thought a slight weather helm to neutral was best to avoid rudder drag! Are you saying that give all other trim to be optimum that a moderate weather helm helps you point better than a light weather helm? Thanks Doug --- htmills@bright.net wrote:
Mike,
My guess is that having the board up loses you a good ten degrees. And, I found while sailing with John Edwards how important it is to load the (big) rudder up too with some weather helm.
That said, I doubt a 17 could do as well as a good deep fin keeler like a J24 no matter what.
Tod
-----Original Message----- From:
montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com
[mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com]
On Behalf Of MC Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 7:05 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: For the fun of racing fast fans on the list
point vs. speed. and is 40 degrees really possible
This afternoon I watched from the shore line two small sailboats racing each other. (outside Tampa Bay) One was a Monty 17 (looked like a reddish or dark orange stripe, bright sun ! ) the other looked like a Hunter 22. both had about the and speed but the Hunter was constantly able to point higher, But why should that be. Not being able to talk to the skippers I do not know if the board was down completely. But just how much difference would the board all the way down make, would it improve the pointing by ? % or ?degrees.
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
hold on a minute I'm getting confused here: heavy weather helm slows you down and with just light weather helm is easier on both skipper and boat, so why would you want to slow down and lose even more headway? since speed would give you better windward performance right? .... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kelch" <doug_kelch@yahoo.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 8:54 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: For the fun of racing fast fans on the list
Tod,
I agree with your 10 deg opinion altho it could easily be 15 deg in some conditions.
What is this about loading some weather helm into the equation - I always thought a slight weather helm to neutral was best to avoid rudder drag!
Are you saying that give all other trim to be optimum that a moderate weather helm helps you point better than a light weather helm?
Thanks
Doug --- htmills@bright.net wrote:
Mike,
My guess is that having the board up loses you a good ten degrees. And, I found while sailing with John Edwards how important it is to load the (big) rudder up too with some weather helm.
That said, I doubt a 17 could do as well as a good deep fin keeler like a J24 no matter what.
Tod
-----Original Message----- From:
montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com
[mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com]
On Behalf Of MC Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 7:05 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: For the fun of racing fast fans on the list
point vs. speed. and is 40 degrees really possible
This afternoon I watched from the shore line two small sailboats racing each other. (outside Tampa Bay) One was a Monty 17 (looked like a reddish or dark orange stripe, bright sun ! ) the other looked like a Hunter 22. both had about the and speed but the Hunter was constantly able to point higher, But why should that be. Not being able to talk to the skippers I do not know if the board was down completely. But just how much difference would the board all the way down make, would it improve the pointing by ? % or ?degrees.
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
participants (4)
-
Doug Kelch -
Honshells -
htmills＠bright.net -
MC