Hi Rik, How did the Flicka do in high winds with that Tohatsu 6. BTW, the Flicka is a neat boat. Gerry Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: oldguy52 via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 3:12 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: oldguy52 <oldguy52@protonmail.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards Hello, I'd second the Tohatsu 6. It's worked very well on my Flicka. Much lighter than the 8 and 9.9 hp 4 strokes. Rik "Responsibilities. That's what gives life meaning. It's like lifting a load, then you can tolerate yourself."... Jordan Peterson Sent with Proton Mail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Sunday, February 19th, 2023 at 4:17 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:

The Tohatsu 6 hp "SailPro" version comes in 20" and 25" shaft also. And I think that model comes standard with high-thrust prop designed for heavy displacement hulls (more effective at lower speeds on displacement hulls vs. a prop designed for high speed/planing hulls).

cheers, John

On 2/19/23 09:01, Gerald Wyatt wrote:

...

Hello,

I’m not sure how many Montgomery 23 owners are using this list, but I was curious what outboards you use. I’ve been using an 8 hp 2-stroke with 25” shaft, but I can’t find an 8hp 4-stroke with the 25” shaft. Obviously, no one makes a 2-stroke any more. The 9.9 4-stroke has a 25” option but just feels too big and heavy.

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOShttps://aka.ms/o0ukef

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

How big is the backing plate you guys are using? I’m curious for comparison with the one I currently am using. Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: sailhavasu via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2023 5:00:22 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: sailhavasu <sailhavasu@aol.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards I also used a 9.9 (Yamaha high thrust electric start x-long shaft 25”) on Dauntless all the years I sailed her. Absolutely loved it. Like Mark I had a huge backing plate installed and the best motor mount I could buy. I did remove it for trailering and yes, it was a heavy son-of-a-gun. The Yamaha has the shifter lever on the throttle handle and of course an alternator. Two things that came in very handy as did the luxury of an electric start. She is visiting here in Havasu right now and the current owners still use the 9.9.

On Feb 25, 2023, at 2:09 PM, Gerald Wyatt <wyattgs@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Rik,

How did the Flicka do in high winds with that Tohatsu 6.

BTW, the Flicka is a neat boat.

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: oldguy52 via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 3:12 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: oldguy52 <oldguy52@protonmail.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards

Hello,

I'd second the Tohatsu 6. It's worked very well on my Flicka. Much lighter than the 8 and 9.9 hp 4 strokes.

Rik

"Responsibilities. That's what gives life meaning. It's like lifting a load, then you can tolerate yourself."... Jordan Peterson

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

------- Original Message -------

...

On Sunday, February 19th, 2023 at 4:17 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:

The Tohatsu 6 hp "SailPro" version comes in 20" and 25" shaft also. And I think that model comes standard with high-thrust prop designed for heavy displacement hulls (more effective at lower speeds on displacement hulls vs. a prop designed for high speed/planing hulls).

cheers, John

...

On 2/19/23 09:01, Gerald Wyatt wrote:

Hello,

I’m not sure how many Montgomery 23 owners are using this list, but I was curious what outboards you use. I’ve been using an 8 hp 2-stroke with 25” shaft, but I can’t find an 8hp 4-stroke with the 25” shaft. Obviously, no one makes a 2-stroke any more. The 9.9 4-stroke has a 25” option but just feels too big and heavy.

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOShttps://aka.ms/o0ukef

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

Gerry, First I would say that I rarely ever ran with only the motor. Sailboats are designed to sail. So, when wind conditions are high enough to make that difficult, I would reduce sail, usually by furling my jib and then motor sailing under (possibly reefed) main alone. In doing this you still operate under the same rules as pure sailing. The #1 rule being you cannot go directly upwind. Operating in this manner I never found myself short of power. In fact we were usually under much better control since the boat was heeling normally and is not bobbing around like a cork, steering erratically as the water pressure on the hull is constantly changing sides. If I ever purely motored it was because there was no wind, not because there was too much wind. Our Flicka is by far our favorite of all the boats we have owned. I hope this helps. Rik "Responsibilities. That's what gives life meaning. It's like lifting a load, then you can tolerate yourself."... Jordan Peterson Sent with Proton Mail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, February 25th, 2023 at 3:09 PM, Gerald Wyatt <wyattgs@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Rik,

How did the Flicka do in high winds with that Tohatsu 6.

BTW, the Flicka is a neat boat.

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOShttps://aka.ms/o0ukef

________________________________ From: oldguy52 via montgomery_boats montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com

Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 3:12 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com

Cc: oldguy52 oldguy52@protonmail.com

Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards

Hello,

I'd second the Tohatsu 6. It's worked very well on my Flicka. Much lighter than the 8 and 9.9 hp 4 strokes.

Rik

"Responsibilities. That's what gives life meaning. It's like lifting a load, then you can tolerate yourself."... Jordan Peterson

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

------- Original Message ------- On Sunday, February 19th, 2023 at 4:17 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com wrote:

...

The Tohatsu 6 hp "SailPro" version comes in 20" and 25" shaft also. And I think that model comes standard with high-thrust prop designed for heavy displacement hulls (more effective at lower speeds on displacement hulls vs. a prop designed for high speed/planing hulls).

cheers, John

On 2/19/23 09:01, Gerald Wyatt wrote:

...

Hello,

I’m not sure how many Montgomery 23 owners are using this list, but I was curious what outboards you use. I’ve been using an 8 hp 2-stroke with 25” shaft, but I can’t find an 8hp 4-stroke with the 25” shaft. Obviously, no one makes a 2-stroke any more. The 9.9 4-stroke has a 25” option but just feels too big and heavy.

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOShttps://aka.ms/o0ukef

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

Different HPs for many reasons including: - Cost - fuel efficiency - Safe boat operation (max HP) - transom strength (amount of stress higher HP puts in structure) Currently Honda uses the same powerhead form the Honda 4/5/6. I actually think, based only on looking at the motor size & weight, that the Honda 8 is also the same powerhead as the 9.9, 15 and 20 as the 15/20 is only a few pounds heavier than the 8/9.9. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Mon, Feb 20, 2023, 08:13 Gerald Wyatt <wyattgs@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the input. The 6hp seems like a good option, but I’m hesitant.

The M23 is a large boat. One of it’s weaknesses is it’s height above the water. Really high winds really impact her ability to make headway. Pointing ability also suffers because she gets pushed downwind. I even have the high thrust prop.

I’ve been in some high wind situations on Lake Chelan and have had to really crank up my 8 hp 2-stroke to make 2-3 knots. The cabin space comes at a cost and I think that is why Jerry didn’t care for the deck design. It’s good for my family of four and we love the boat. It sails great in winds up to 15 kts and only suffers beyond that.

I’ll look at the Honda engines. Interesting that 8 and 9.9 might be the same engine. If they are the same weight, why would anyone bother with the 8? I’ll look more into it.

Is Flicka an M23?

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: htmills@zoominternet.net <htmills@zoominternet.net> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 7:57:47 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards

Gerry,

In the case of Honda outboards, the 8 and the 9.9 are identical weights for the x-long 25" shaft. I expect they are the same engine, with the 8 simply being detuned.

https://marine.honda.com/outboards/models/portable/bf8-9_9

Tod Mills M17 #408 BuscaBrisas

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Wyatt" <wyattgs@gmail.com> To: "montgomery boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 12:01:19 PM Subject: M_Boats: M23 Outboards

Hello,

I’m not sure how many Montgomery 23 owners are using this list, but I was curious what outboards you use. I’ve been using an 8 hp 2-stroke with 25” shaft, but I can’t find an 8hp 4-stroke with the 25” shaft. Obviously, no one makes a 2-stroke any more. The 9.9 4-stroke has a 25” option but just feels too big and heavy.

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

I've had very good luck with the Hondas. Big thing is follow the oil change schedule and always run fresh fuel. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Mon, Feb 20, 2023, 08:50 Gerald Wyatt <wyattgs@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Dave,

Thanks. That makes sense.

Do you recommend the Honda outboards? In my experience with their cars and lawn mowers, they are super reliable.

Thank you,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 8:21:58 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards

Different HPs for many reasons including:

- Cost - fuel efficiency - Safe boat operation (max HP) - transom strength (amount of stress higher HP puts in structure)

Currently Honda uses the same powerhead form the Honda 4/5/6.

I actually think, based only on looking at the motor size & weight, that the Honda 8 is also the same powerhead as the 9.9, 15 and 20 as the 15/20 is only a few pounds heavier than the 8/9.9.

:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com

On Mon, Feb 20, 2023, 08:13 Gerald Wyatt <wyattgs@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the input. The 6hp seems like a good option, but I’m hesitant.

The M23 is a large boat. One of it’s weaknesses is it’s height above the water. Really high winds really impact her ability to make headway. Pointing ability also suffers because she gets pushed downwind. I even have the high thrust prop.

I’ve been in some high wind situations on Lake Chelan and have had to really crank up my 8 hp 2-stroke to make 2-3 knots. The cabin space comes at a cost and I think that is why Jerry didn’t care for the deck design. It’s good for my family of four and we love the boat. It sails great in winds up to 15 kts and only suffers beyond that.

I’ll look at the Honda engines. Interesting that 8 and 9.9 might be the same engine. If they are the same weight, why would anyone bother with the 8? I’ll look more into it.

Is Flicka an M23?

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: htmills@zoominternet.net <htmills@zoominternet.net> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 7:57:47 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards

Gerry,

In the case of Honda outboards, the 8 and the 9.9 are identical weights for the x-long 25" shaft. I expect they are the same engine, with the 8 simply being detuned.

https://marine.honda.com/outboards/models/portable/bf8-9_9

Tod Mills M17 #408 BuscaBrisas

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Wyatt" <wyattgs@gmail.com> To: "montgomery boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 12:01:19 PM Subject: M_Boats: M23 Outboards

Hello,

I’m not sure how many Montgomery 23 owners are using this list, but I was curious what outboards you use. I’ve been using an 8 hp 2-stroke with 25” shaft, but I can’t find an 8hp 4-stroke with the 25” shaft. Obviously, no one makes a 2-stroke any more. The 9.9 4-stroke has a 25” option but just feels too big and heavy.

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

I had the Yamaha T8 on my Flicka and was never at a loss for power, it was a fantastic motor, and a fantastic boat. I miss it. www.rustyknorr.weebly.com

On Feb 20, 2023, at 10:53 AM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:

FWIW - Flicka displacement is 6000 lbs, M23 is 3600 (per sailboatdata.com, usually fairly close to correct). The trunk cabin, freeboard, and other layout on both - meaning the windage, or most of it - is quite similar. The Flicka LOA is actually 24 ft. but that's because of the bowsprit, hull is ~20 ft. Anyhow...Flicka is considerably heavier with similar profile, so if someone's happy with a 6hp SailPro on a Flicka that is reasonable input to consider. And, if you sail on Chelan regularly...it blows like crazy, when it blows, for sure.

And yes the Honda 8 and 9.9 are same carcass, as are the Tohatsu/Mercury 4, 5, and 6 hp. They just cripple the full HP capacity for the lower HP versions. Mostly via carburetion I assume. If you read the specs you'll also notice that the top end HP model for a given carcass is rated at a slightly higher RPM. So part of the extra HP rating is from running it faster. If you look at specs, the motors in a certain HP range will all weigh the same (or within a few lbs, for same shaft length) - all the same carcass. This holds true up into bigger HP as well, like the 35-50 hp models will all be the same carcass and so on.

Also FWIW, when I bought my M17 it came with a Tohatsu SailPro 6hp 20" shaft. Waaay overkill. But nice motor. I sold it fairly early on (to a guy with a Venture of Newport 23).

cheers, John

...

On 2/20/23 08:13, Gerald Wyatt wrote: Hi everyone, Thanks for the input. The 6hp seems like a good option, but I’m hesitant. The M23 is a large boat. One of it’s weaknesses is it’s height above the water. Really high winds really impact her ability to make headway. Pointing ability also suffers because she gets pushed downwind. I even have the high thrust prop. I’ve been in some high wind situations on Lake Chelan and have had to really crank up my 8 hp 2-stroke to make 2-3 knots. The cabin space comes at a cost and I think that is why Jerry didn’t care for the deck design. It’s good for my family of four and we love the boat. It sails great in winds up to 15 kts and only suffers beyond that. I’ll look at the Honda engines. Interesting that 8 and 9.9 might be the same engine. If they are the same weight, why would anyone bother with the 8? I’ll look more into it. Is Flicka an M23? Thanks, Gerry Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: htmills@zoominternet.net <htmills@zoominternet.net> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 7:57:47 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards Gerry, In the case of Honda outboards, the 8 and the 9.9 are identical weights for the x-long 25" shaft. I expect they are the same engine, with the 8 simply being detuned. https://marine.honda.com/outboards/models/portable/bf8-9_9 Tod Mills M17 #408 BuscaBrisas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Wyatt" <wyattgs@gmail.com> To: "montgomery boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 12:01:19 PM Subject: M_Boats: M23 Outboards Hello, I’m not sure how many Montgomery 23 owners are using this list, but I was curious what outboards you use. I’ve been using an 8 hp 2-stroke with 25” shaft, but I can’t find an 8hp 4-stroke with the 25” shaft. Obviously, no one makes a 2-stroke any more. The 9.9 4-stroke has a 25” option but just feels too big and heavy. Thanks, Gerry Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

Tohatsus have a record of being very particular about clean gas and getting clogged carb jets. Use fresh fuel and always treat with SeaFoam and Sta-Bil. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 15:15 Gerald Wyatt <wyattgs@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi John,

Thanks for that input. I certainly like the Tohatsu 6hp weight. I also like it is designed for sailboats.

Anyone have reliability issues with the Tohatsu outboards?

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 10:52:44 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards

FWIW - Flicka displacement is 6000 lbs, M23 is 3600 (per sailboatdata.com, usually fairly close to correct). The trunk cabin, freeboard, and other layout on both - meaning the windage, or most of it - is quite similar. The Flicka LOA is actually 24 ft. but that's because of the bowsprit, hull is ~20 ft. Anyhow...Flicka is considerably heavier with similar profile, so if someone's happy with a 6hp SailPro on a Flicka that is reasonable input to consider. And, if you sail on Chelan regularly...it blows like crazy, when it blows, for sure.

And yes the Honda 8 and 9.9 are same carcass, as are the Tohatsu/Mercury 4, 5, and 6 hp. They just cripple the full HP capacity for the lower HP versions. Mostly via carburetion I assume. If you read the specs you'll also notice that the top end HP model for a given carcass is rated at a slightly higher RPM. So part of the extra HP rating is from running it faster. If you look at specs, the motors in a certain HP range will all weigh the same (or within a few lbs, for same shaft length) - all the same carcass. This holds true up into bigger HP as well, like the 35-50 hp models will all be the same carcass and so on.

Also FWIW, when I bought my M17 it came with a Tohatsu SailPro 6hp 20" shaft. Waaay overkill. But nice motor. I sold it fairly early on (to a guy with a Venture of Newport 23).

cheers, John

On 2/20/23 08:13, Gerald Wyatt wrote:

...

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the input. The 6hp seems like a good option, but I’m hesitant.

The M23 is a large boat. One of it’s weaknesses is it’s height above the water. Really high winds really impact her ability to make headway. Pointing ability also suffers because she gets pushed downwind. I even have the high thrust prop.

I’ve been in some high wind situations on Lake Chelan and have had to really crank up my 8 hp 2-stroke to make 2-3 knots. The cabin space comes at a cost and I think that is why Jerry didn’t care for the deck design. It’s good for my family of four and we love the boat. It sails great in winds up to 15 kts and only suffers beyond that.

I’ll look at the Honda engines. Interesting that 8 and 9.9 might be the same engine. If they are the same weight, why would anyone bother with the 8? I’ll look more into it.

Is Flicka an M23?

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: htmills@zoominternet.net <htmills@zoominternet.net> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 7:57:47 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards

Gerry,

In the case of Honda outboards, the 8 and the 9.9 are identical weights for the x-long 25" shaft. I expect they are the same engine, with the 8 simply being detuned.

https://marine.honda.com/outboards/models/portable/bf8-9_9

Tod Mills M17 #408 BuscaBrisas

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Wyatt" <wyattgs@gmail.com> To: "montgomery boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 12:01:19 PM Subject: M_Boats: M23 Outboards

Hello,

I’m not sure how many Montgomery 23 owners are using this list, but I was curious what outboards you use. I’ve been using an 8 hp 2-stroke with 25” shaft, but I can’t find an 8hp 4-stroke with the 25” shaft. Obviously, no one makes a 2-stroke any more. The 9.9 4-stroke has a 25” option but just feels too big and heavy.

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

If you are keeping fuel fresh and treating with Sta-Bil and SeaFoam ethanol doesn't matter. Any fuel older than a month pour into one of your gasoline using cars/trucks. Ethanol isn't goong to damage the motor (see below) unless you're using a motor built before the late-ish 1980s. Ethanol is actually a great cleaner. This is good for the boat's fuel system . The problem happens if there is a dirty fuel tank, fuel lines, engine fuel system. The ethanol fuel cleans that stuff up and it gets clogged in the carburetor jets. I've never had a outboard motor problem using E10. DON'T use E15 or E85! :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 15:45 Jason Leckie <leckie.jas@gmail.com> wrote:

I have been told that using ethanol free gas is best for all small motors as well.

Jason Leckie M17 Kuma

On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 3:36 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Tohatsus have a record of being very particular about clean gas and getting clogged carb jets. Use fresh fuel and always treat with SeaFoam and Sta-Bil.

:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com

On Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 15:15 Gerald Wyatt <wyattgs@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi John,

Thanks for that input. I certainly like the Tohatsu 6hp weight. I also like it is designed for sailboats.

Anyone have reliability issues with the Tohatsu outboards?

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 10:52:44 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards

FWIW - Flicka displacement is 6000 lbs, M23 is 3600 (per sailboatdata.com, usually fairly close to correct). The trunk cabin, freeboard, and other layout on both - meaning the windage, or most of it - is quite similar. The Flicka LOA is actually 24 ft. but that's because of the bowsprit, hull is ~20 ft. Anyhow...Flicka is considerably heavier with similar profile, so if someone's happy with a 6hp SailPro on a Flicka that is reasonable input to consider. And, if you sail on Chelan regularly...it blows like crazy, when it blows, for sure.

And yes the Honda 8 and 9.9 are same carcass, as are the Tohatsu/Mercury 4, 5, and 6 hp. They just cripple the full HP capacity for the lower HP versions. Mostly via carburetion I assume. If you read the specs you'll also notice that the top end HP model for a given carcass is rated at a slightly higher RPM. So part of the extra HP rating is from running it faster. If you look at specs, the motors in a certain HP range will all weigh the same (or within a few lbs, for same shaft length) - all the same carcass. This holds true up into bigger HP as well, like the 35-50 hp models will all be the same carcass and so on.

Also FWIW, when I bought my M17 it came with a Tohatsu SailPro 6hp 20" shaft. Waaay overkill. But nice motor. I sold it fairly early on (to a guy with a Venture of Newport 23).

cheers, John

On 2/20/23 08:13, Gerald Wyatt wrote:

...

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the input. The 6hp seems like a good option, but I’m hesitant.

The M23 is a large boat. One of it’s weaknesses is it’s height above the water. Really high winds really impact her ability to make headway. Pointing ability also suffers because she gets pushed downwind. I even have the high thrust prop.

I’ve been in some high wind situations on Lake Chelan and have had to really crank up my 8 hp 2-stroke to make 2-3 knots. The cabin space comes at a cost and I think that is why Jerry didn’t care for the deck design. It’s good for my family of four and we love the boat. It sails great in winds up to 15 kts and only suffers beyond that.

I’ll look at the Honda engines. Interesting that 8 and 9.9 might be the same engine. If they are the same weight, why would anyone bother with the 8? I’ll look more into it.

Is Flicka an M23?

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: htmills@zoominternet.net <htmills@zoominternet.net> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 7:57:47 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards

Gerry,

In the case of Honda outboards, the 8 and the 9.9 are identical weights for the x-long 25" shaft. I expect they are the same engine, with the 8 simply being detuned.

https://marine.honda.com/outboards/models/portable/bf8-9_9

Tod Mills M17 #408 BuscaBrisas

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Wyatt" <wyattgs@gmail.com> To: "montgomery boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 12:01:19 PM Subject: M_Boats: M23 Outboards

Hello,

I’m not sure how many Montgomery 23 owners are using this list, but I was curious what outboards you use. I’ve been using an 8 hp 2-stroke with 25” shaft, but I can’t find an 8hp 4-stroke with the 25” shaft. Obviously, no one makes a 2-stroke any more. The 9.9 4-stroke has a 25” option but just feels too big and heavy.

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

PS - don't know if the 87 octane 10% ethanol is what they rate the horsepower with. Ethanol blend does reduce power output vs. pure petrol. cheers, John On 2/23/23 15:45, Jason Leckie wrote:

I have been told that using ethanol free gas is best for all small motors as well.

Jason Leckie M17 Kuma

On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 3:36 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Tohatsus have a record of being very particular about clean gas and getting clogged carb jets. Use fresh fuel and always treat with SeaFoam and Sta-Bil.

:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com

On Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 15:15 Gerald Wyatt <wyattgs@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi John,

Thanks for that input. I certainly like the Tohatsu 6hp weight. I also like it is designed for sailboats.

Anyone have reliability issues with the Tohatsu outboards?

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 10:52:44 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards

FWIW - Flicka displacement is 6000 lbs, M23 is 3600 (per sailboatdata.com, usually fairly close to correct). The trunk cabin, freeboard, and other layout on both - meaning the windage, or most of it - is quite similar. The Flicka LOA is actually 24 ft. but that's because of the bowsprit, hull is ~20 ft. Anyhow...Flicka is considerably heavier with similar profile, so if someone's happy with a 6hp SailPro on a Flicka that is reasonable input to consider. And, if you sail on Chelan regularly...it blows like crazy, when it blows, for sure.

And yes the Honda 8 and 9.9 are same carcass, as are the Tohatsu/Mercury 4, 5, and 6 hp. They just cripple the full HP capacity for the lower HP versions. Mostly via carburetion I assume. If you read the specs you'll also notice that the top end HP model for a given carcass is rated at a slightly higher RPM. So part of the extra HP rating is from running it faster. If you look at specs, the motors in a certain HP range will all weigh the same (or within a few lbs, for same shaft length) - all the same carcass. This holds true up into bigger HP as well, like the 35-50 hp models will all be the same carcass and so on.

Also FWIW, when I bought my M17 it came with a Tohatsu SailPro 6hp 20" shaft. Waaay overkill. But nice motor. I sold it fairly early on (to a guy with a Venture of Newport 23).

cheers, John

On 2/20/23 08:13, Gerald Wyatt wrote:

...

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the input. The 6hp seems like a good option, but I’m hesitant.

The M23 is a large boat. One of it’s weaknesses is it’s height above the water. Really high winds really impact her ability to make headway. Pointing ability also suffers because she gets pushed downwind. I even have the high thrust prop.

I’ve been in some high wind situations on Lake Chelan and have had to really crank up my 8 hp 2-stroke to make 2-3 knots. The cabin space comes at a cost and I think that is why Jerry didn’t care for the deck design. It’s good for my family of four and we love the boat. It sails great in winds up to 15 kts and only suffers beyond that.

I’ll look at the Honda engines. Interesting that 8 and 9.9 might be the same engine. If they are the same weight, why would anyone bother with the 8? I’ll look more into it.

Is Flicka an M23?

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: htmills@zoominternet.net <htmills@zoominternet.net> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 7:57:47 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards

Gerry,

In the case of Honda outboards, the 8 and the 9.9 are identical weights for the x-long 25" shaft. I expect they are the same engine, with the 8 simply being detuned.

https://marine.honda.com/outboards/models/portable/bf8-9_9

Tod Mills M17 #408 BuscaBrisas

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Wyatt" <wyattgs@gmail.com> To: "montgomery boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 12:01:19 PM Subject: M_Boats: M23 Outboards

Hello,

I’m not sure how many Montgomery 23 owners are using this list, but I was curious what outboards you use. I’ve been using an 8 hp 2-stroke with 25” shaft, but I can’t find an 8hp 4-stroke with the 25” shaft. Obviously, no one makes a 2-stroke any more. The 9.9 4-stroke has a 25” option but just feels too big and heavy.

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

I recommend always filling engines and fuel cans through a filtering and water separation funnel. This eliminated all fuel quality issues for me. I use an early 80s outboard on E10 gas with stabil added and have no problems. I often store the fuel for years before using it.    This is what I have: https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Funnel-AF1CB-Fuel-Filter/dp/B000SOFLHK/ref=pd_aw_f... sincerely, Tyler   -----Original Message----- From: John <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: montgomery <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John <john@eco-living.net> Date: Thursday, 23 February 2023 6:26 PM PST Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards What Dave said...keep the fuel clean and don't let it sit too long unused with fuel in it. Alternately, get the LPG version. Most or all of the gasoline fuel/carb deposits, clogging, etc. issues vanish if you're using LPG. Get the lightweight (and safer) composite LPG tanks - these are the norm in Europe since years ago, but still relatively rare in the USA. Tohatsu/Mercury (small Mercs are all made by Tohatsu) has the Sail Pro/Sail Power 25" shaft in LPG - only in 5HP rating though, it appears, not in 6HP. Other than what Dave said, I haven't heard an overall bad rep for Tohatsu/Merc vs. other makes. It's mostly fuel/carb issues with all the small outboards (any small 4-cycles), is what I have experienced myself and gathered from others. Itty bitty carbs with itty bitty passages and tiny jets and delicate little float needles etc. Some brands and/or models may be less trouble-prone than others, I don't have enough data to say. One thing I would say is, whatever you buy, get it from an in-person dealer reasonably close to you, so that if there's problems within the warranty, you have a convenient and hopefully friendly place to take it. By friendly, I mean that if you buy from an online source, your local dealer may be technically required to provide warranty service, but they may not be happy about it since they didn't get the original sale. This happened to a guy I knew with a Potter 14. He bought a new Tohatsu 3.5 from an online source, and it turned out to be a lemon out of the box. The local dealer stalled him for months on getting the warranty repairs done. They get paid by the manufacturer in any case, but if they want to be mean about it there's nothing much you can do. cheers, John On 2/23/23 15:14, Gerald Wyatt wrote:

Hi John,

Thanks for that input. I certainly like the Tohatsu 6hp weight. I also like it is designed for sailboats.

Anyone have reliability issues with the Tohatsu outboards?

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 10:52:44 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards

FWIW - Flicka displacement is 6000 lbs, M23 is 3600 (per sailboatdata.com, usually fairly close to correct). The trunk cabin, freeboard, and other layout on both - meaning the windage, or most of it - is quite similar. The Flicka LOA is actually 24 ft. but that's because of the bowsprit, hull is ~20 ft. Anyhow...Flicka is considerably heavier with similar profile, so if someone's happy with a 6hp SailPro on a Flicka that is reasonable input to consider. And, if you sail on Chelan regularly...it blows like crazy, when it blows, for sure.

And yes the Honda 8 and 9.9 are same carcass, as are the Tohatsu/Mercury 4, 5, and 6 hp. They just cripple the full HP capacity for the lower HP versions. Mostly via carburetion I assume. If you read the specs you'll also notice that the top end HP model for a given carcass is rated at a slightly higher RPM. So part of the extra HP rating is from running it faster. If you look at specs, the motors in a certain HP range will all weigh the same (or within a few lbs, for same shaft length) - all the same carcass. This holds true up into bigger HP as well, like the 35-50 hp models will all be the same carcass and so on.

Also FWIW, when I bought my M17 it came with a Tohatsu SailPro 6hp 20" shaft. Waaay overkill. But nice motor. I sold it fairly early on (to a guy with a Venture of Newport 23).

cheers, John

On 2/20/23 08:13, Gerald Wyatt wrote:

...

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the input. The 6hp seems like a good option, but I’m hesitant.

The M23 is a large boat. One of it’s weaknesses is it’s height above the water. Really high winds really impact her ability to make headway. Pointing ability also suffers because she gets pushed downwind. I even have the high thrust prop.

I’ve been in some high wind situations on Lake Chelan and have had to really crank up my 8 hp 2-stroke to make 2-3 knots. The cabin space comes at a cost and I think that is why Jerry didn’t care for the deck design. It’s good for my family of four and we love the boat. It sails great in winds up to 15 kts and only suffers beyond that.

I’ll look at the Honda engines. Interesting that 8 and 9.9 might be the same engine. If they are the same weight, why would anyone bother with the 8? I’ll look more into it.

Is Flicka an M23?

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: htmills@zoominternet.net <htmills@zoominternet.net> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 7:57:47 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards

Gerry,

In the case of Honda outboards, the 8 and the 9.9 are identical weights for the x-long 25" shaft. I expect they are the same engine, with the 8 simply being detuned.

https://marine.honda.com/outboards/models/portable/bf8-9_9

Tod Mills M17 #408 BuscaBrisas

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Wyatt" <wyattgs@gmail.com> To: "montgomery boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 12:01:19 PM Subject: M_Boats: M23 Outboards

Hello,

I’m not sure how many Montgomery 23 owners are using this list, but I was curious what outboards you use. I’ve been using an 8 hp 2-stroke with 25” shaft, but I can’t find an 8hp 4-stroke with the 25” shaft. Obviously, no one makes a 2-stroke any more. The 9.9 4-stroke has a 25” option but just feels too big and heavy.

Thanks,

Gerry

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

Very good to know, thank you! Jost On Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 12:36 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:

Meanwhile on the dark side of ethanol in gas - it absorbs more water than ethanol-free gas, with various consequences. So if using E10 or any fuel with ethanol the "keep it fresh" and drain/run dry if stored any length is more important. From a small engine forum:

"Try to keep the carb empty when it sits long term. That ethanol draws up enough water to corrode the inside of it. Once you tear a few of these small carbs down it's pretty obvious what that alcohol does inside the passages when it sits a long time. My snowblower when I got it had the bowl corroded in the very bottom. One spot even pinholed right through. That's the ethanol's magic legacy. Luckily...can find ethanol free and that's what my small stuff gets and I still drain those carbs when they sit. If there's no drain on the bowl toss on one of those tiny plastic shut offs is there's enough room."

Stabilizers (Sta-Bil etc.) do not prevent the water absorption. Here's some tech on how they work:

"Products like Sta-Bil are known as oxidation inhibitors. Their objective is to slow the degradation of the fuel molecule by keeping the fuel and oxygen from reacting. This type of protective stabiliser will generally last for up to two years depending on the environment the fuel is stored. Humid areas don't last nearly as long as arid environments due to moisture. So think of the stabiliser as putting a protective barrier around the fuel molecule to keep it away from the air. Fuels stored in sealed metal containers will outlast fuels stored in naturally aspirated containers for the exact same reason."

And even more technical:

"Stuff like Stabil generally contains hindered phenolics that act as sacrificial molecules. That is, they react with oxygen before unsaturated materials in the gasoline can. BHT in food is an example of a hindered phenol. When all of this material is used up by reaction with oxygen, then the gasoline is vulnerable. Typically, additives use 2,5-dimethylhydroxy benzene as the antioxidant for fuels."

This also clarifies why you should add the stabilizer when you get the gas fresh. If you add it after the gas is half oxidated already, it will only inhibit further oxidation. It won't "restore" or reverse the oxidation that's already happened.

Also clarifies why fuller and more sealed containers reduce oxidation (and water condensation, depending on your climate).

Last year I moved from very dry inland to more humid coastal so I can't get away with what I did before, stored fuel here will degrade faster for multiple reasons.

cheers, John

On 2/24/23 07:11, casioqv wrote:

...

I recommend always filling engines and fuel cans through a filtering and

water separation funnel. This eliminated all fuel quality issues for me. I use an early 80s outboard on E10 gas with stabil added and have no problems. I often store the fuel for years before using it.

...

This is what I have:

https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Funnel-AF1CB-Fuel-Filter/dp/B000SOFLHK/ref=pd_aw_f...

...

sincerely, Tyler

-----Original Message-----

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

Yeah - the manufacturers confirm it doesn't harm the engine to run it on E10, that is, it's within spec as fuel to use. It's the other effects, nothing to do with when the engine is running, that are the main problems. There are carb-cleaner additives one can use when desired, vs. having ethanol in the system all the time because it's in the gas. I really wish there were more LPG options. All these problems disappear if running LPG. cheers, John On 2/24/23 14:15, John h wrote:

Thanks John I questioned other comments claiming ethanol is totally safe. since I’ve stopped using it for several years most all of my small engine woes have disappeared , especially after winter storage

...

On Feb 24, 2023, at 11:56 AM, Jost Lunstroth <jostml@gmail.com> wrote:

Very good to know, thank you!

Jost

...

On Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 12:36 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:

Meanwhile on the dark side of ethanol in gas - it absorbs more water than ethanol-free gas, with various consequences. So if using E10 or any fuel with ethanol the "keep it fresh" and drain/run dry if stored any length is more important. From a small engine forum:

"Try to keep the carb empty when it sits long term. That ethanol draws up enough water to corrode the inside of it. Once you tear a few of these small carbs down it's pretty obvious what that alcohol does inside the passages when it sits a long time. My snowblower when I got it had the bowl corroded in the very bottom. One spot even pinholed right through. That's the ethanol's magic legacy. Luckily...can find ethanol free and that's what my small stuff gets and I still drain those carbs when they sit. If there's no drain on the bowl toss on one of those tiny plastic shut offs is there's enough room."

Stabilizers (Sta-Bil etc.) do not prevent the water absorption. Here's some tech on how they work:

"Products like Sta-Bil are known as oxidation inhibitors. Their objective is to slow the degradation of the fuel molecule by keeping the fuel and oxygen from reacting. This type of protective stabiliser will generally last for up to two years depending on the environment the fuel is stored. Humid areas don't last nearly as long as arid environments due to moisture. So think of the stabiliser as putting a protective barrier around the fuel molecule to keep it away from the air. Fuels stored in sealed metal containers will outlast fuels stored in naturally aspirated containers for the exact same reason."

And even more technical:

"Stuff like Stabil generally contains hindered phenolics that act as sacrificial molecules. That is, they react with oxygen before unsaturated materials in the gasoline can. BHT in food is an example of a hindered phenol. When all of this material is used up by reaction with oxygen, then the gasoline is vulnerable. Typically, additives use 2,5-dimethylhydroxy benzene as the antioxidant for fuels."

This also clarifies why you should add the stabilizer when you get the gas fresh. If you add it after the gas is half oxidated already, it will only inhibit further oxidation. It won't "restore" or reverse the oxidation that's already happened.

Also clarifies why fuller and more sealed containers reduce oxidation (and water condensation, depending on your climate).

Last year I moved from very dry inland to more humid coastal so I can't get away with what I did before, stored fuel here will degrade faster for multiple reasons.

cheers, John

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

Hi Mark, How do you lift that Honda engine onto your motor mount when you trailer it? It seems like that would be challenging. Transport would also be challenging. Thanks, Gerry Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: Mark Dvorscak <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 9:01:38 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M23 Outboards I’m a little late to this conversation but I run a Honda 9.9 on my M23. It does a fine job but it is fairly heavy. The Tohatsu 6hp looks pretty good and there is a Compac 23 that uses the Tohatsu 5hp lpg motor on Lake Pleasant. It is also available in the 25” shaft and 9” prop and a 12v, 60 watt 5 amp alternator (on the ‘sailpro’ model) as is the 6hp 4 stroke. I might be tempted to sell my Honda and replace it with the Tohatsu lpg if I could find a good review of real world performance against currents and wind with a boat as heavy as my M23. Mark Dvorscak M23 Faith M15 M10 Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows From: Gerald Wyatt<mailto:wyattgs@gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 9:01 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com<mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: M23 Outboards Hello, I’m not sure how many Montgomery 23 owners are using this list, but I was curious what outboards you use. I’ve been using an 8 hp 2-stroke with 25” shaft, but I can’t find an 8hp 4-stroke with the 25” shaft. Obviously, no one makes a 2-stroke any more. The 9.9 4-stroke has a 25” option but just feels too big and heavy. Thanks, Gerry Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>