Are any Montgomery boats in the race to Alaska? Capt Jim SV Pelican Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
Nope. Big shift in the size of the boats this year. I think a lot of this has to do with the new rule for the course - second year of being able to go west of Vancouver Island. Seems like all what we would call large boats, 23+ feet. Just a smattering of paddle boats making the entire trip. a few little craft only going from Port Townsend to Victoria. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 08:49 Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:
Are any Montgomery boats in the race to Alaska?
Capt Jim SV Pelican
Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
OK Thanks again Dave I will scratch this event off by bucket list Capt JiM SV Pelican -----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 1:33 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: R2AK Nope. Big shift in the size of the boats this year. I think a lot of this has to do with the new rule for the course - second year of being able to go west of Vancouver Island. Seems like all what we would call large boats, 23+ feet. Just a smattering of paddle boats making the entire trip. a few little craft only going from Port Townsend to Victoria. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 08:49 Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:
Are any Montgomery boats in the race to Alaska?
Capt Jim SV Pelican
Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
Jim. No reason not to take part. A excellent challenge that M17/M15 and Sage 17 have done. M17s have finished the entire race multiple times. S17 and M15 done leg one. Once the rowing system figured out any Winkleboat can finish: M15/17/23 and S15/SC/17. For leg one a M10 or M12 could succeed. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sailboatswallow.wordpress.com/ :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 13:51 Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:
OK Thanks again Dave I will scratch this event off by bucket list Capt JiM SV Pelican
-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 1:33 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: R2AK
Nope.
Big shift in the size of the boats this year. I think a lot of this has to do with the new rule for the course - second year of being able to go west of Vancouver Island.
Seems like all what we would call large boats, 23+ feet. Just a smattering of paddle boats making the entire trip. a few little craft only going from Port Townsend to Victoria.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 08:49 Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:
Are any Montgomery boats in the race to Alaska?
Capt Jim SV Pelican
Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
What a shame. I have very little interest in yet another corporate sponsor big boat race that the average sailor has zero chance in competing against. Allowing going outside separated the route and killed the race in my opinion. The first couple of years were thrilling, and less “yachty”. I don’t follow it anymore. www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Jun 6, 2023, at 1:59 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim.
No reason not to take part. A excellent challenge that M17/M15 and Sage 17 have done. M17s have finished the entire race multiple times. S17 and M15 done leg one.
Once the rowing system figured out any Winkleboat can finish: M15/17/23 and S15/SC/17.
For leg one a M10 or M12 could succeed.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sailboatswallow.wordpress.com/ :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 13:51 Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:
OK Thanks again Dave I will scratch this event off by bucket list Capt JiM SV Pelican
-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 1:33 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: R2AK
Nope.
Big shift in the size of the boats this year. I think a lot of this has to do with the new rule for the course - second year of being able to go west of Vancouver Island.
Seems like all what we would call large boats, 23+ feet. Just a smattering of paddle boats making the entire trip. a few little craft only going from Port Townsend to Victoria.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 08:49 Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:
Are any Montgomery boats in the race to Alaska?
Capt Jim SV Pelican
Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
Yeah...a great idea degraded by factors of scale - or size of boats as the case may be. The first time there were multiple big trimarans doing it in 5-7 days that kind of killed the interest for me. I suspect it's killing the interest for most small-boat adventurers as well. What's the point of participating if it's not mostly about adventuring with your 'tribe', so to speak? Not easy to fix the race design...there could be a boat size limit. But how to define the limit is tricky. Can't just say X feet long, because some boat types that were a huge adventure to try the R2AK in - like that six-man outrigger one year, or multi-person rowing boats - would be too long, or, bigger sailboats would still be small enough but 'too big' to really fit the adventure spirit. It was a wild-idea scruffy fringe event to start with and thus drew mostly small-boat adventurers. And, it was only a matter of time until some fast big $$ big boat people noticed it and jumped in. cheers, John On 6/6/23 16:23, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats wrote:
What a shame. I have very little interest in yet another corporate sponsor big boat race that the average sailor has zero chance in competing against. Allowing going outside separated the route and killed the race in my opinion. The first couple of years were thrilling, and less “yachty”. I don’t follow it anymore.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Limited now to “real sail boats” Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: Gail Russell <gail@zeliga.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 5:44:00 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: R2AK Anyone know why they changed? New sponsor Larry Ellison? LOL
Are you stating the defacto result, or what you think the specific intent is of the new rule? I wondered if they saw liability issues with small boats and inside passages? On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 7:11 PM Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:
Limited now to “real sail boats”
Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: Gail Russell <gail@zeliga.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 5:44:00 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: R2AK
Anyone know why they changed? New sponsor Larry Ellison? LOL
My thought is that there have always been two different races in R2AK- those with fast multihulls and hi-tech planing monohulls that are "in it to win" and those with small sail or human powered boats that are competing against themselves to see if they can accomplish something difficult, and like the extra safety and camaraderie of doing it as an organized event. People have been doing this solo on SUPs and kayaks since the beginning, obviously those people never had any chance against a carbon fiber trimaran... but neither did an M boat. It has long been a dream for me to do this race, and I still want to. I signed up the first year with my M15 as a team together with my dad but couldn't get the time off in grad school... later on I was in talks with Sal and Gail to do the race as a publicity stunt for Sage, but I couldn't get the time for that either. Now that I have a 5 year old son and a Sage 17, my plan is to enter the race as a father/son team once he is old enough to do it with me... I would guess in about 4-5 years. Maybe even a 3 generation grandfather/father/son team if my dad isn't too old by then. I couldn't care less if someone else has a faster boat or a faster route... I never really expect a Sage 17 to beat a Farrier on any course and I don't care if it can. For me it's about accomplishing the dream of sailing an M boat to alaska, and I will do it even if the R2AK doesn't exist anymore. Now that said, in long term very very light winds (which are possible in that area) there may be conditions where an S17 or an M15 with a massive spinnaker/drifter and a full batten main can compete head to head with those big fast boats. It is light and has a ton of sail area on level with high end race boats, but can't keep up in hull speed. If those boats can't do hull speed either, the S17 may even be able to sail effectively in very light winds where they would be rowing. I have been in light wind races in the SF Bay where my M15 was passing big race boats, because it could ghost along in winds where they could not. Sincerely, Tyler Sage 17 #0 Goshawk ----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: "john" <john@eco-living.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 5:35:06 PM Subject: M_Boats: Re: R2AK Yeah...a great idea degraded by factors of scale - or size of boats as the case may be. The first time there were multiple big trimarans doing it in 5-7 days that kind of killed the interest for me. I suspect it's killing the interest for most small-boat adventurers as well. What's the point of participating if it's not mostly about adventuring with your 'tribe', so to speak? Not easy to fix the race design...there could be a boat size limit. But how to define the limit is tricky. Can't just say X feet long, because some boat types that were a huge adventure to try the R2AK in - like that six-man outrigger one year, or multi-person rowing boats - would be too long, or, bigger sailboats would still be small enough but 'too big' to really fit the adventure spirit. It was a wild-idea scruffy fringe event to start with and thus drew mostly small-boat adventurers. And, it was only a matter of time until some fast big $$ big boat people noticed it and jumped in. cheers, John
I concur with Dave. After completing the 70/48 twice in my 17 foot kayak, my bucket list now includes completing stage 1 of the R2AK, Port Townsend to Victoria in my other 17 foot boat. However, after all the refurbishment effort, I am not putting oars on my M17. If Lynn and Larry Pardey could figure out how to push Seraffyn with a sculling oar, maybe I could figure out how to push my M17 with a similar device. Could always use the dingy to pull the boat into Victoria harbor. The advantage of only doing stage 1, if the weather is terrible, I hang out Siren's pub in Port Townsend drink a beer and go home, if the wind fails and I don't arrive in Victoria on time, nothing lost. When the wind picks up after the allowed time has past, return to Port Townsend and Siren's still seems like a good fall back. The best part about the adventure races is the comradery (sp?). There are those looking to win and those looking for the adventure. I think it was the Noddy Scamp crew that captured the spirit of the adventure that I want to emulate. Neat people that chatted with everybody dockside when they participated in R2AK's stage 1 a couple of years back. Tim de Lacy M17 hull #333 -----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 1:59 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: R2AK Jim. No reason not to take part. A excellent challenge that M17/M15 and Sage 17 have done. M17s have finished the entire race multiple times. S17 and M15 done leg one. Once the rowing system figured out any Winkleboat can finish: M15/17/23 and S15/SC/17. For leg one a M10 or M12 could succeed. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sailboatswallow.wordpress.com/ :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 13:51 Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:
OK Thanks again Dave I will scratch this event off by bucket list Capt JiM SV Pelican
-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 1:33 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: R2AK
Nope.
Big shift in the size of the boats this year. I think a lot of this has to do with the new rule for the course - second year of being able to go west of Vancouver Island.
Seems like all what we would call large boats, 23+ feet. Just a smattering of paddle boats making the entire trip. a few little craft only going from Port Townsend to Victoria.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 08:49 Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:
Are any Montgomery boats in the race to Alaska?
Capt Jim SV Pelican
Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
I agree, I don't think it's necessary to have a full rowing station on an M boat for R2AK. Special sails for extreme light winds, a sculling or SUP oar, and some kind of dinghy that can tow would all be fine IMO. A full batten main with a preventer and a nylon 'windseeker' jib will ghost along an M boat at about rowing speeds even when there seems to be zero wind. There is never really zero wind if the sun is up and there is a shoreline nearby, there is always a thermal heating gradient causing light winds near the shoreline. I once rowed my M15 several miles with a canoe oar, sitting high up on a pile of PFDs and my feet down in the cockpit locker, and it was fine, I felt I could cover distance that way if absolutely necessary. Sincerely, Tyler Sage 17 #0 Goshawk ----- Original Message ----- From: tdelacy@wavecable.com To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, "scoobscobie" <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 7:48:41 PM Subject: M_Boats: Re: R2AK I concur with Dave. After completing the 70/48 twice in my 17 foot kayak, my bucket list now includes completing stage 1 of the R2AK, Port Townsend to Victoria in my other 17 foot boat. However, after all the refurbishment effort, I am not putting oars on my M17. If Lynn and Larry Pardey could figure out how to push Seraffyn with a sculling oar, maybe I could figure out how to push my M17 with a similar device. Could always use the dingy to pull the boat into Victoria harbor. The advantage of only doing stage 1, if the weather is terrible, I hang out Siren's pub in Port Townsend drink a beer and go home, if the wind fails and I don't arrive in Victoria on time, nothing lost. When the wind picks up after the allowed time has past, return to Port Townsend and Siren's still seems like a good fall back. The best part about the adventure races is the comradery (sp?). There are those looking to win and those looking for the adventure. I think it was the Noddy Scamp crew that captured the spirit of the adventure that I want to emulate. Neat people that chatted with everybody dockside when they participated in R2AK's stage 1 a couple of years back. Tim de Lacy M17 hull #333
To all my Monty colleagues "Festina Lente"! Make haste, slowly, the art of sailing. There is also an aesthetic appeal which our Monty's satisfy. Ultra modern sailing machines are interesting engineering exercises but usually they are ugly. Rimas Aukstuolis M-15 Lake Erie On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 12:14 PM <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I agree, I don't think it's necessary to have a full rowing station on an M boat for R2AK. Special sails for extreme light winds, a sculling or SUP oar, and some kind of dinghy that can tow would all be fine IMO. A full batten main with a preventer and a nylon 'windseeker' jib will ghost along an M boat at about rowing speeds even when there seems to be zero wind. There is never really zero wind if the sun is up and there is a shoreline nearby, there is always a thermal heating gradient causing light winds near the shoreline.
I once rowed my M15 several miles with a canoe oar, sitting high up on a pile of PFDs and my feet down in the cockpit locker, and it was fine, I felt I could cover distance that way if absolutely necessary.
Sincerely, Tyler Sage 17 #0 Goshawk
----- Original Message ----- From: tdelacy@wavecable.com To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, "scoobscobie" < scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 7:48:41 PM Subject: M_Boats: Re: R2AK
I concur with Dave.
After completing the 70/48 twice in my 17 foot kayak, my bucket list now includes completing stage 1 of the R2AK, Port Townsend to Victoria in my other 17 foot boat.
However, after all the refurbishment effort, I am not putting oars on my M17. If Lynn and Larry Pardey could figure out how to push Seraffyn with a sculling oar, maybe I could figure out how to push my M17 with a similar device. Could always use the dingy to pull the boat into Victoria harbor. The advantage of only doing stage 1, if the weather is terrible, I hang out Siren's pub in Port Townsend drink a beer and go home, if the wind fails and I don't arrive in Victoria on time, nothing lost. When the wind picks up after the allowed time has past, return to Port Townsend and Siren's still seems like a good fall back.
The best part about the adventure races is the comradery (sp?). There are those looking to win and those looking for the adventure. I think it was the Noddy Scamp crew that captured the spirit of the adventure that I want to emulate. Neat people that chatted with everybody dockside when they participated in R2AK's stage 1 a couple of years back.
Tim de Lacy M17 hull #333
From the race tracker, it doesn’t actually look like anyone went on the outside of Vancouver Island. ‘Go Fast, Go North’ is on Prime about one sailboat from Vancouver that entered R2AK a couple of years ago. They regretted not setting up a better mode of self propulsion than just SUP paddles. On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 10:23 AM Rimantas Aukstuolis <raukstuolis1@gmail.com> wrote:
To all my Monty colleagues "Festina Lente"! Make haste, slowly, the art of sailing. There is also an aesthetic appeal which our Monty's satisfy. Ultra modern sailing machines are interesting engineering exercises but usually they are ugly. Rimas Aukstuolis M-15 Lake Erie
On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 12:14 PM <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I agree, I don't think it's necessary to have a full rowing station on an M boat for R2AK. Special sails for extreme light winds, a sculling or SUP oar, and some kind of dinghy that can tow would all be fine IMO. A full batten main with a preventer and a nylon 'windseeker' jib will ghost along an M boat at about rowing speeds even when there seems to be zero wind. There is never really zero wind if the sun is up and there is a shoreline nearby, there is always a thermal heating gradient causing light winds near the shoreline.
I once rowed my M15 several miles with a canoe oar, sitting high up on a pile of PFDs and my feet down in the cockpit locker, and it was fine, I felt I could cover distance that way if absolutely necessary.
Sincerely, Tyler Sage 17 #0 Goshawk
----- Original Message ----- From: tdelacy@wavecable.com To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, "scoobscobie" < scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 7:48:41 PM Subject: M_Boats: Re: R2AK
I concur with Dave.
After completing the 70/48 twice in my 17 foot kayak, my bucket list now includes completing stage 1 of the R2AK, Port Townsend to Victoria in my other 17 foot boat.
However, after all the refurbishment effort, I am not putting oars on my M17. If Lynn and Larry Pardey could figure out how to push Seraffyn with a sculling oar, maybe I could figure out how to push my M17 with a similar device. Could always use the dingy to pull the boat into Victoria harbor. The advantage of only doing stage 1, if the weather is terrible, I hang out Siren's pub in Port Townsend drink a beer and go home, if the wind fails and I don't arrive in Victoria on time, nothing lost. When the wind picks up after the allowed time has past, return to Port Townsend and Siren's still seems like a good fall back.
The best part about the adventure races is the comradery (sp?). There are those looking to win and those looking for the adventure. I think it was the Noddy Scamp crew that captured the spirit of the adventure that I want to emulate. Neat people that chatted with everybody dockside when they participated in R2AK's stage 1 a couple of years back.
Tim de Lacy M17 hull #333
The guy who set up a full outrigger rowing rig on an M17 for an early R2AK wrote somewhere that about 2 mph was max speed they could maintain for long distances. I have used a SUP paddle to move my M17 short distances in glassy conditions (like into a marina slip). It is a much heaver boat than an M15 (or a SCAMP, which I have also briefly moved using a SUP paddle) so I would not plan to try any distance that way. I have set up a sculling option on my M17, using the Scullmatix device (https://duckworks.com/scullmatix/) with oarlock on starboard portion of transom, but so far have only been able to try it with an oar that is at least several feet too short. I was able to move the boat around a bit in glassy conditions, despite the awkward angle and low effectiveness with the too-short oar. A long enough oar would clearly work better, and, then there's the issue of stowing a long enough oar on a small boat. It would need to be a two-piece oar to stow inside anywhere (the R2AK M17 stowed their long sculling oars outboard of the toe rails when sailing IIRC). cheers, John On 6/7/23 09:14, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I agree, I don't think it's necessary to have a full rowing station on an M boat for R2AK. Special sails for extreme light winds, a sculling or SUP oar, and some kind of dinghy that can tow would all be fine IMO. A full batten main with a preventer and a nylon 'windseeker' jib will ghost along an M boat at about rowing speeds even when there seems to be zero wind. There is never really zero wind if the sun is up and there is a shoreline nearby, there is always a thermal heating gradient causing light winds near the shoreline.
I once rowed my M15 several miles with a canoe oar, sitting high up on a pile of PFDs and my feet down in the cockpit locker, and it was fine, I felt I could cover distance that way if absolutely necessary.
Sincerely, Tyler Sage 17 #0 Goshawk
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I wonder if some kind of telescoping paddle could work? Maybe a SUP paddle or an "emergency telescoping paddle." There's also multi-piece kayak paddles that have many short sections and can be as long or short as you want... plus they have removable blades so you could use different blade styles. Sincerely, Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: "john" <john@eco-living.net> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 10:25:20 AM Subject: M_Boats: Re: human power, oars, paddles The guy who set up a full outrigger rowing rig on an M17 for an early R2AK wrote somewhere that about 2 mph was max speed they could maintain for long distances. I have used a SUP paddle to move my M17 short distances in glassy conditions (like into a marina slip). It is a much heaver boat than an M15 (or a SCAMP, which I have also briefly moved using a SUP paddle) so I would not plan to try any distance that way. I have set up a sculling option on my M17, using the Scullmatix device (https://duckworks.com/scullmatix/) with oarlock on starboard portion of transom, but so far have only been able to try it with an oar that is at least several feet too short. I was able to move the boat around a bit in glassy conditions, despite the awkward angle and low effectiveness with the too-short oar. A long enough oar would clearly work better, and, then there's the issue of stowing a long enough oar on a small boat. It would need to be a two-piece oar to stow inside anywhere (the R2AK M17 stowed their long sculling oars outboard of the toe rails when sailing IIRC). cheers, John On 6/7/23 09:14, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I agree, I don't think it's necessary to have a full rowing station on an M boat for R2AK. Special sails for extreme light winds, a sculling or SUP oar, and some kind of dinghy that can tow would all be fine IMO. A full batten main with a preventer and a nylon 'windseeker' jib will ghost along an M boat at about rowing speeds even when there seems to be zero wind. There is never really zero wind if the sun is up and there is a shoreline nearby, there is always a thermal heating gradient causing light winds near the shoreline.
I once rowed my M15 several miles with a canoe oar, sitting high up on a pile of PFDs and my feet down in the cockpit locker, and it was fine, I felt I could cover distance that way if absolutely necessary.
Sincerely, Tyler Sage 17 #0 Goshawk
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
There's a variety of river raft/river dory oars that are available with two-piece shafts in various lengths. They typically have, or can take, a flat blade, so that if sculling the blade shape is identical in both directions. Duckworks sells a carbon fiber ferrule that can be used to make two-piece oars out of one-piece oars. Most flatwater rowing blades, as well as most kayak, canoe and SUP blades, have one or more types of asymmetry ('spoon' curve, hatchet shape, blade angle vs. shaft, etc.) so would not scull evenly. My test oar was only 6 ft., and only 5 1/2 ft or a bit less aft of the Scullmatix since it has to clamp on the full size shaft not the smaller handgrip that is the first 6 inches or so of the 6 ft. So to get enough blade in the water to do anything, the whole rig was angled too steeply down to work effectively on either end. I figured I needed at least 2 ft more, and 3 ft more would probably be better. So ~8 ft aft of the Scullmatix, meaning an 8 1/2 or 9 ft oar. Without the Scullmatix, add ~4+ ft to oar length because it has to reach into the cockpit to where the Scullmatix handle does. So about 12 ft minimum. There are some specialty makers, if you've got the buck$$$: https://www.shawandtenney.com/productdisplay/st-sculling-oar But there's also free plans for oars at Duckworks and elsewhere so given time and adequate skill, DIY... cheers, John On 6/7/23 11:25, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I wonder if some kind of telescoping paddle could work? Maybe a SUP paddle or an "emergency telescoping paddle." There's also multi-piece kayak paddles that have many short sections and can be as long or short as you want... plus they have removable blades so you could use different blade styles.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: "john" <john@eco-living.net> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 10:25:20 AM Subject: M_Boats: Re: human power, oars, paddles
The guy who set up a full outrigger rowing rig on an M17 for an early R2AK wrote somewhere that about 2 mph was max speed they could maintain for long distances.
I have used a SUP paddle to move my M17 short distances in glassy conditions (like into a marina slip). It is a much heaver boat than an M15 (or a SCAMP, which I have also briefly moved using a SUP paddle) so I would not plan to try any distance that way.
I have set up a sculling option on my M17, using the Scullmatix device (https://duckworks.com/scullmatix/) with oarlock on starboard portion of transom, but so far have only been able to try it with an oar that is at least several feet too short. I was able to move the boat around a bit in glassy conditions, despite the awkward angle and low effectiveness with the too-short oar. A long enough oar would clearly work better, and, then there's the issue of stowing a long enough oar on a small boat. It would need to be a two-piece oar to stow inside anywhere (the R2AK M17 stowed their long sculling oars outboard of the toe rails when sailing IIRC).
cheers, John
On 6/7/23 09:14, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I agree, I don't think it's necessary to have a full rowing station on an M boat for R2AK. Special sails for extreme light winds, a sculling or SUP oar, and some kind of dinghy that can tow would all be fine IMO. A full batten main with a preventer and a nylon 'windseeker' jib will ghost along an M boat at about rowing speeds even when there seems to be zero wind. There is never really zero wind if the sun is up and there is a shoreline nearby, there is always a thermal heating gradient causing light winds near the shoreline.
I once rowed my M15 several miles with a canoe oar, sitting high up on a pile of PFDs and my feet down in the cockpit locker, and it was fine, I felt I could cover distance that way if absolutely necessary.
Sincerely, Tyler Sage 17 #0 Goshawk
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I think I posted this on Facebook a while back… I really like the rowing setup on my M15. Two-piece aluminum oars from Ocean South were inexpensive. The longest ones they sell are 9’ long but work well and are easy to stow below. I think I am able to row at 3kts in calm water. Don BrysonNanette (#639)Port Townsend, WA Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad On Wednesday, June 7, 2023, 12:14 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: There's a variety of river raft/river dory oars that are available with two-piece shafts in various lengths. They typically have, or can take, a flat blade, so that if sculling the blade shape is identical in both directions. Duckworks sells a carbon fiber ferrule that can be used to make two-piece oars out of one-piece oars. Most flatwater rowing blades, as well as most kayak, canoe and SUP blades, have one or more types of asymmetry ('spoon' curve, hatchet shape, blade angle vs. shaft, etc.) so would not scull evenly. My test oar was only 6 ft., and only 5 1/2 ft or a bit less aft of the Scullmatix since it has to clamp on the full size shaft not the smaller handgrip that is the first 6 inches or so of the 6 ft. So to get enough blade in the water to do anything, the whole rig was angled too steeply down to work effectively on either end. I figured I needed at least 2 ft more, and 3 ft more would probably be better. So ~8 ft aft of the Scullmatix, meaning an 8 1/2 or 9 ft oar. Without the Scullmatix, add ~4+ ft to oar length because it has to reach into the cockpit to where the Scullmatix handle does. So about 12 ft minimum. There are some specialty makers, if you've got the buck$$$: https://www.shawandtenney.com/productdisplay/st-sculling-oar But there's also free plans for oars at Duckworks and elsewhere so given time and adequate skill, DIY... cheers, John On 6/7/23 11:25, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I wonder if some kind of telescoping paddle could work? Maybe a SUP paddle or an "emergency telescoping paddle." There's also multi-piece kayak paddles that have many short sections and can be as long or short as you want... plus they have removable blades so you could use different blade styles.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: "john" <john@eco-living.net> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 10:25:20 AM Subject: M_Boats: Re: human power, oars, paddles
The guy who set up a full outrigger rowing rig on an M17 for an early R2AK wrote somewhere that about 2 mph was max speed they could maintain for long distances.
I have used a SUP paddle to move my M17 short distances in glassy conditions (like into a marina slip). It is a much heaver boat than an M15 (or a SCAMP, which I have also briefly moved using a SUP paddle) so I would not plan to try any distance that way.
I have set up a sculling option on my M17, using the Scullmatix device (https://duckworks.com/scullmatix/) with oarlock on starboard portion of transom, but so far have only been able to try it with an oar that is at least several feet too short. I was able to move the boat around a bit in glassy conditions, despite the awkward angle and low effectiveness with the too-short oar. A long enough oar would clearly work better, and, then there's the issue of stowing a long enough oar on a small boat. It would need to be a two-piece oar to stow inside anywhere (the R2AK M17 stowed their long sculling oars outboard of the toe rails when sailing IIRC).
cheers, John
On 6/7/23 09:14, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I agree, I don't think it's necessary to have a full rowing station on an M boat for R2AK. Special sails for extreme light winds, a sculling or SUP oar, and some kind of dinghy that can tow would all be fine IMO. A full batten main with a preventer and a nylon 'windseeker' jib will ghost along an M boat at about rowing speeds even when there seems to be zero wind. There is never really zero wind if the sun is up and there is a shoreline nearby, there is always a thermal heating gradient causing light winds near the shoreline.
I once rowed my M15 several miles with a canoe oar, sitting high up on a pile of PFDs and my feet down in the cockpit locker, and it was fine, I felt I could cover distance that way if absolutely necessary.
Sincerely, Tyler Sage 17 #0 Goshawk
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks Don Where do you sit when rowing? Jim S -----Original Message----- From: Don Bryson via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 1:53 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; Don Bryson <dbryson59@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: human power, oars, paddles I think I posted this on Facebook a while back… I really like the rowing setup on my M15. Two-piece aluminum oars from Ocean South were inexpensive. The longest ones they sell are 9’ long but work well and are easy to stow below. I think I am able to row at 3kts in calm water. Don BrysonNanette (#639)Port Townsend, WA Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad On Wednesday, June 7, 2023, 12:14 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: There's a variety of river raft/river dory oars that are available with two-piece shafts in various lengths. They typically have, or can take, a flat blade, so that if sculling the blade shape is identical in both directions. Duckworks sells a carbon fiber ferrule that can be used to make two-piece oars out of one-piece oars. Most flatwater rowing blades, as well as most kayak, canoe and SUP blades, have one or more types of asymmetry ('spoon' curve, hatchet shape, blade angle vs. shaft, etc.) so would not scull evenly. My test oar was only 6 ft., and only 5 1/2 ft or a bit less aft of the Scullmatix since it has to clamp on the full size shaft not the smaller handgrip that is the first 6 inches or so of the 6 ft. So to get enough blade in the water to do anything, the whole rig was angled too steeply down to work effectively on either end. I figured I needed at least 2 ft more, and 3 ft more would probably be better. So ~8 ft aft of the Scullmatix, meaning an 8 1/2 or 9 ft oar. Without the Scullmatix, add ~4+ ft to oar length because it has to reach into the cockpit to where the Scullmatix handle does. So about 12 ft minimum. There are some specialty makers, if you've got the buck$$$: https://www.shawandtenney.com/productdisplay/st-sculling-oar But there's also free plans for oars at Duckworks and elsewhere so given time and adequate skill, DIY... cheers, John On 6/7/23 11:25, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I wonder if some kind of telescoping paddle could work? Maybe a SUP paddle or an "emergency telescoping paddle." There's also multi-piece kayak paddles that have many short sections and can be as long or short as you want... plus they have removable blades so you could use different blade styles.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: "john" <john@eco-living.net> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 10:25:20 AM Subject: M_Boats: Re: human power, oars, paddles
The guy who set up a full outrigger rowing rig on an M17 for an early R2AK wrote somewhere that about 2 mph was max speed they could maintain for long distances.
I have used a SUP paddle to move my M17 short distances in glassy conditions (like into a marina slip). It is a much heaver boat than an M15 (or a SCAMP, which I have also briefly moved using a SUP paddle) so I would not plan to try any distance that way.
I have set up a sculling option on my M17, using the Scullmatix device (https://duckworks.com/scullmatix/) with oarlock on starboard portion of transom, but so far have only been able to try it with an oar that is at least several feet too short. I was able to move the boat around a bit in glassy conditions, despite the awkward angle and low effectiveness with the too-short oar. A long enough oar would clearly work better, and, then there's the issue of stowing a long enough oar on a small boat. It would need to be a two-piece oar to stow inside anywhere (the R2AK M17 stowed their long sculling oars outboard of the toe rails when sailing IIRC).
cheers, John
On 6/7/23 09:14, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I agree, I don't think it's necessary to have a full rowing station on an M boat for R2AK. Special sails for extreme light winds, a sculling or SUP oar, and some kind of dinghy that can tow would all be fine IMO. A full batten main with a preventer and a nylon 'windseeker' jib will ghost along an M boat at about rowing speeds even when there seems to be zero wind. There is never really zero wind if the sun is up and there is a shoreline nearby, there is always a thermal heating gradient causing light winds near the shoreline.
I once rowed my M15 several miles with a canoe oar, sitting high up on a pile of PFDs and my feet down in the cockpit locker, and it was fine, I felt I could cover distance that way if absolutely necessary.
Sincerely, Tyler Sage 17 #0 Goshawk
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Where do you sit? -----Original Message----- From: Don Bryson via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 1:53 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; Don Bryson <dbryson59@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: human power, oars, paddles I think I posted this on Facebook a while back… I really like the rowing setup on my M15. Two-piece aluminum oars from Ocean South were inexpensive. The longest ones they sell are 9’ long but work well and are easy to stow below. I think I am able to row at 3kts in calm water. Don BrysonNanette (#639)Port Townsend, WA Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad On Wednesday, June 7, 2023, 12:14 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: There's a variety of river raft/river dory oars that are available with two-piece shafts in various lengths. They typically have, or can take, a flat blade, so that if sculling the blade shape is identical in both directions. Duckworks sells a carbon fiber ferrule that can be used to make two-piece oars out of one-piece oars. Most flatwater rowing blades, as well as most kayak, canoe and SUP blades, have one or more types of asymmetry ('spoon' curve, hatchet shape, blade angle vs. shaft, etc.) so would not scull evenly. My test oar was only 6 ft., and only 5 1/2 ft or a bit less aft of the Scullmatix since it has to clamp on the full size shaft not the smaller handgrip that is the first 6 inches or so of the 6 ft. So to get enough blade in the water to do anything, the whole rig was angled too steeply down to work effectively on either end. I figured I needed at least 2 ft more, and 3 ft more would probably be better. So ~8 ft aft of the Scullmatix, meaning an 8 1/2 or 9 ft oar. Without the Scullmatix, add ~4+ ft to oar length because it has to reach into the cockpit to where the Scullmatix handle does. So about 12 ft minimum. There are some specialty makers, if you've got the buck$$$: https://www.shawandtenney.com/productdisplay/st-sculling-oar But there's also free plans for oars at Duckworks and elsewhere so given time and adequate skill, DIY... cheers, John On 6/7/23 11:25, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I wonder if some kind of telescoping paddle could work? Maybe a SUP paddle or an "emergency telescoping paddle." There's also multi-piece kayak paddles that have many short sections and can be as long or short as you want... plus they have removable blades so you could use different blade styles.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: "john" <john@eco-living.net> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 10:25:20 AM Subject: M_Boats: Re: human power, oars, paddles
The guy who set up a full outrigger rowing rig on an M17 for an early R2AK wrote somewhere that about 2 mph was max speed they could maintain for long distances.
I have used a SUP paddle to move my M17 short distances in glassy conditions (like into a marina slip). It is a much heaver boat than an M15 (or a SCAMP, which I have also briefly moved using a SUP paddle) so I would not plan to try any distance that way.
I have set up a sculling option on my M17, using the Scullmatix device (https://duckworks.com/scullmatix/) with oarlock on starboard portion of transom, but so far have only been able to try it with an oar that is at least several feet too short. I was able to move the boat around a bit in glassy conditions, despite the awkward angle and low effectiveness with the too-short oar. A long enough oar would clearly work better, and, then there's the issue of stowing a long enough oar on a small boat. It would need to be a two-piece oar to stow inside anywhere (the R2AK M17 stowed their long sculling oars outboard of the toe rails when sailing IIRC).
cheers, John
On 6/7/23 09:14, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I agree, I don't think it's necessary to have a full rowing station on an M boat for R2AK. Special sails for extreme light winds, a sculling or SUP oar, and some kind of dinghy that can tow would all be fine IMO. A full batten main with a preventer and a nylon 'windseeker' jib will ghost along an M boat at about rowing speeds even when there seems to be zero wind. There is never really zero wind if the sun is up and there is a shoreline nearby, there is always a thermal heating gradient causing light winds near the shoreline.
I once rowed my M15 several miles with a canoe oar, sitting high up on a pile of PFDs and my feet down in the cockpit locker, and it was fine, I felt I could cover distance that way if absolutely necessary.
Sincerely, Tyler Sage 17 #0 Goshawk
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I place a 1x6 across the benches in front of the companion way (see photo and video). I think there’s room for improvement, especially if I were going on a long row. Don Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Wednesday, June 7, 2023, 3:35 PM, Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote: Where do you sit? -----Original Message----- From: Don Bryson via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 1:53 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; Don Bryson <dbryson59@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: human power, oars, paddles I think I posted this on Facebook a while back… I really like the rowing setup on my M15. Two-piece aluminum oars from Ocean South were inexpensive. The longest ones they sell are 9’ long but work well and are easy to stow below. I think I am able to row at 3kts in calm water. Don BrysonNanette (#639)Port Townsend, WA Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad On Wednesday, June 7, 2023, 12:14 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: There's a variety of river raft/river dory oars that are available with two-piece shafts in various lengths. They typically have, or can take, a flat blade, so that if sculling the blade shape is identical in both directions. Duckworks sells a carbon fiber ferrule that can be used to make two-piece oars out of one-piece oars. Most flatwater rowing blades, as well as most kayak, canoe and SUP blades, have one or more types of asymmetry ('spoon' curve, hatchet shape, blade angle vs. shaft, etc.) so would not scull evenly. My test oar was only 6 ft., and only 5 1/2 ft or a bit less aft of the Scullmatix since it has to clamp on the full size shaft not the smaller handgrip that is the first 6 inches or so of the 6 ft. So to get enough blade in the water to do anything, the whole rig was angled too steeply down to work effectively on either end. I figured I needed at least 2 ft more, and 3 ft more would probably be better. So ~8 ft aft of the Scullmatix, meaning an 8 1/2 or 9 ft oar. Without the Scullmatix, add ~4+ ft to oar length because it has to reach into the cockpit to where the Scullmatix handle does. So about 12 ft minimum. There are some specialty makers, if you've got the buck$$$: https://www.shawandtenney.com/productdisplay/st-sculling-oar But there's also free plans for oars at Duckworks and elsewhere so given time and adequate skill, DIY... cheers, John On 6/7/23 11:25, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I wonder if some kind of telescoping paddle could work? Maybe a SUP paddle or an "emergency telescoping paddle." There's also multi-piece kayak paddles that have many short sections and can be as long or short as you want... plus they have removable blades so you could use different blade styles.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: "john" <john@eco-living.net> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 10:25:20 AM Subject: M_Boats: Re: human power, oars, paddles
The guy who set up a full outrigger rowing rig on an M17 for an early R2AK wrote somewhere that about 2 mph was max speed they could maintain for long distances.
I have used a SUP paddle to move my M17 short distances in glassy conditions (like into a marina slip). It is a much heaver boat than an M15 (or a SCAMP, which I have also briefly moved using a SUP paddle) so I would not plan to try any distance that way.
I have set up a sculling option on my M17, using the Scullmatix device (https://duckworks.com/scullmatix/) with oarlock on starboard portion of transom, but so far have only been able to try it with an oar that is at least several feet too short. I was able to move the boat around a bit in glassy conditions, despite the awkward angle and low effectiveness with the too-short oar. A long enough oar would clearly work better, and, then there's the issue of stowing a long enough oar on a small boat. It would need to be a two-piece oar to stow inside anywhere (the R2AK M17 stowed their long sculling oars outboard of the toe rails when sailing IIRC).
cheers, John
On 6/7/23 09:14, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I agree, I don't think it's necessary to have a full rowing station on an M boat for R2AK. Special sails for extreme light winds, a sculling or SUP oar, and some kind of dinghy that can tow would all be fine IMO. A full batten main with a preventer and a nylon 'windseeker' jib will ghost along an M boat at about rowing speeds even when there seems to be zero wind. There is never really zero wind if the sun is up and there is a shoreline nearby, there is always a thermal heating gradient causing light winds near the shoreline.
I once rowed my M15 several miles with a canoe oar, sitting high up on a pile of PFDs and my feet down in the cockpit locker, and it was fine, I felt I could cover distance that way if absolutely necessary.
Sincerely, Tyler Sage 17 #0 Goshawk
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
That looks great! Much simpler than trying to get the pivot point further outboard... I wonder how it affects things? I would imagine the main effect is less leverage/higher paddle speed, so it's like having a higher gear... but to a first approximation that could be compensated for with a smaller blade. Sincerely, Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: "john" <john@eco-living.net>, "Don Bryson" <dbryson59@yahoo.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 1:53:00 PM Subject: M_Boats: Re: human power, oars, paddles I think I posted this on Facebook a while back… I really like the rowing setup on my M15. Two-piece aluminum oars from Ocean South were inexpensive. The longest ones they sell are 9’ long but work well and are easy to stow below. I think I am able to row at 3kts in calm water. Don BrysonNanette (#639)Port Townsend, WA
participants (10)
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casioqv＠usermail.com -
Dave Scobie -
Don Bryson -
Gail Russell -
Jason Leckie -
Jim Sadler -
John Schinnerer -
Rimantas Aukstuolis -
Rusty Knorr -
tdelacy＠wavecable.com