Long story short, I asked for a sail cut to OEM size and shape, and they sent me one with a giant roach that hangs into my back stay. When I asked them to fix it, this is the sail maker's reply. Is this for real, or is it a brush-off?
not completely surprised the sail hits the backstay...It would go through on a tack and is normal. Fully understand the customers mindset. We could trim some of the roach off not too big a deal
I can't see this working well in low winds, and bashing the sail into my rigging doesn't seem good for either. Given how thoughtfully the boat was designed, is this going to mess with balance and performance? Thanks for your thoughts. --Jen
Hi Jennifer, What model boat is this on, and who is the sailmaker? It is normal on modern high performance sailboats to push this limit a little bit, but usually not on cruising boats. Often you can lower the boom slightly to keep it from hanging up. My Sage 17 with a Pattison sail catches on the backstay in very light wind and I have to pull the boom across manually, however I can also lower the boom about an inch or two from the maximum height position to prevent this. You might notice most of the really fast racing sailboats with fractional rigs usually have a backstay flicker on the masthead. It pulls the backstay out of the way during tacks, if you slack it. None of the M boats are designed to need this. Do you have an old main you can compare to, to see if they really cut it wrong? I'd probably play with things a bit like the boom height to see if you can make it work, as cutting the sail smaller will reduce performance. How does your mast rake look? Do you have noticeable weather helm upwind in strong winds? Most M boats do well with a lot of mast rake to create more lift with the rudder, and that also gives more backstay clearance. Sincerely, Tyler Sage 17 #0 Goshawk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Wood" <jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2024 10:14:03 AM Subject: M_Boats: Problems with new sail Long story short, I asked for a sail cut to OEM size and shape, and they sent me one with a giant roach that hangs into my back stay. When I asked them to fix it, this is the sail maker's reply. Is this for real, or is it a brush-off?
not completely surprised the sail hits the backstay...It would go through on a tack and is normal. Fully understand the customers mindset. We could trim some of the roach off not too big a deal
I can't see this working well in low winds, and bashing the sail into my rigging doesn't seem good for either. Given how thoughtfully the boat was designed, is this going to mess with balance and performance? Thanks for your thoughts. --Jen
I've had mains that brush the backstay. Might not be an issue. But if it overlaps by a foot or more you might want to have them trim it down. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Wood <jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2024 1:14 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Problems with new sail Long story short, I asked for a sail cut to OEM size and shape, and they sent me one with a giant roach that hangs into my back stay. When I asked them to fix it, this is the sail maker's reply. Is this for real, or is it a brush-off?
not completely surprised the sail hits the backstay...It would go through on a tack and is normal. Fully understand the customers mindset. We could trim some of the roach off not too big a deal
I can't see this working well in low winds, and bashing the sail into my rigging doesn't seem good for either. Given how thoughtfully the boat was designed, is this going to mess with balance and performance? Thanks for your thoughts. --Jen
My main in very light air will just catch the backstay on my M17. Not by much. I have approximately the mast rake recommended by Jerry, maybe on the lower end of that range but still in that ballpark. cheers, John On 6/24/24 10:58, mike43067@gmail.com wrote:
I've had mains that brush the backstay. Might not be an issue. But if it overlaps by a foot or more you might want to have them trim it down. Mike
-----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Wood <jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2024 1:14 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Problems with new sail
Long story short, I asked for a sail cut to OEM size and shape, and they sent me one with a giant roach that hangs into my back stay.
When I asked them to fix it, this is the sail maker's reply. Is this for real, or is it a brush-off?
not completely surprised the sail hits the backstay...It would go through on a tack and is normal. Fully understand the customers mindset. We could trim some of the roach off not too big a deal
I can't see this working well in low winds, and bashing the sail into my rigging doesn't seem good for either.
Given how thoughtfully the boat was designed, is this going to mess with balance and performance?
Thanks for your thoughts.
--Jen
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi all thanks for all the replies. Some answers in short form: * 1974 M17 * Not much rake if any, currently I'll give it another go next time I get down to the dock. A good excuse to finally get around to adding some rake. Here's a couple of pictures in profile with the new sail. To my eye I'd say it's about 4 inches. I can whip it over with effort, wasn't sure how much wear that adds... Frankly the boat is neither under nor overpowered, so I didn't really set out looking for more sail area aloft. Apologies in advance for any digital artifacts from removing sail numbers etc On Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 1:12 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My main in very light air will just catch the backstay on my M17. Not by much. I have approximately the mast rake recommended by Jerry, maybe on the lower end of that range but still in that ballpark.
cheers, John
On 6/24/24 10:58, mike43067@gmail.com wrote:
I've had mains that brush the backstay. Might not be an issue. But if it overlaps by a foot or more you might want to have them trim it down. Mike
-----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Wood <jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2024 1:14 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Problems with new sail
Long story short, I asked for a sail cut to OEM size and shape, and they sent me one with a giant roach that hangs into my back stay.
When I asked them to fix it, this is the sail maker's reply. Is this for real, or is it a brush-off?
not completely surprised the sail hits the backstay...It would go through on a tack and is normal. Fully understand the customers mindset. We could trim some of the roach off not too big a deal
I can't see this working well in low winds, and bashing the sail into my rigging doesn't seem good for either.
Given how thoughtfully the boat was designed, is this going to mess with balance and performance?
Thanks for your thoughts.
--Jen
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks for pics... That looks like a LOT of interference. Mine is nowhere near that much, just the fullest part of the roach catches the backstay by an inch or so in very light air. And it's the batten that catches, if it were not near the batten it would probably just slide right thru. It could just be the angle of the photo, but the angle of the mast off the cabin roof and compared to the mast step bracket looks like a LOT of rake. Either that or the mast is leaning quite a bit to port, which seems unlikely I hope! The more rake the more roach interference you'll get, since more rake puts the sail further back, especially the upper part, and also reduces the distance between mast and backstay, especially higher up. A full side view showing the whole boat and mast would help us see the situation better. Also, do you have the standard masthead casting, with some overhang behind the mast to where the backstay attaches? If that was modified and the stay attaches closer to mast that would affect this also. My M17 is a 1974 also, #38, what's your hull #? cheers, John On 6/24/24 13:03, Jennifer Wood wrote:
Hi all thanks for all the replies. Some answers in short form:
* 1974 M17 * Not much rake if any, currently
I'll give it another go next time I get down to the dock. A good excuse to finally get around to adding some rake.
Here's a couple of pictures in profile with the new sail. To my eye I'd say it's about 4 inches. I can whip it over with effort, wasn't sure how much wear that adds...
Frankly the boat is neither under nor overpowered, so I didn't really set out looking for more sail area aloft.
Apologies in advance for any digital artifacts from removing sail numbers etc
On Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 1:12 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My main in very light air will just catch the backstay on my M17. Not by much. I have approximately the mast rake recommended by Jerry, maybe on the lower end of that range but still in that ballpark.
cheers, John
On 6/24/24 10:58, mike43067@gmail.com wrote:
I've had mains that brush the backstay. Might not be an issue. But if it overlaps by a foot or more you might want to have them trim it down. Mike
-----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Wood <jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2024 1:14 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Problems with new sail
Long story short, I asked for a sail cut to OEM size and shape, and they sent me one with a giant roach that hangs into my back stay.
When I asked them to fix it, this is the sail maker's reply. Is this for real, or is it a brush-off?
not completely surprised the sail hits the backstay...It would go through on a tack and is normal. Fully understand the customers mindset. We could trim some of the roach off not too big a deal
I can't see this working well in low winds, and bashing the sail into my rigging doesn't seem good for either.
Given how thoughtfully the boat was designed, is this going to mess with balance and performance?
Thanks for your thoughts.
--Jen
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
4" is a lot. Sounds like the sailmaker might not have noticed that the 17 has a backstay! Who made the sails? A sail with 4" of overlap will probably fight its way thru on a tack if there is good breeze but it would be a nitemare in a drifter. I'd get pushy with the sailmaker. ________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2024 1:22 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Problems with new sail Thanks for pics... That looks like a LOT of interference. Mine is nowhere near that much, just the fullest part of the roach catches the backstay by an inch or so in very light air. And it's the batten that catches, if it were not near the batten it would probably just slide right thru. It could just be the angle of the photo, but the angle of the mast off the cabin roof and compared to the mast step bracket looks like a LOT of rake. Either that or the mast is leaning quite a bit to port, which seems unlikely I hope! The more rake the more roach interference you'll get, since more rake puts the sail further back, especially the upper part, and also reduces the distance between mast and backstay, especially higher up. A full side view showing the whole boat and mast would help us see the situation better. Also, do you have the standard masthead casting, with some overhang behind the mast to where the backstay attaches? If that was modified and the stay attaches closer to mast that would affect this also. My M17 is a 1974 also, #38, what's your hull #? cheers, John On 6/24/24 13:03, Jennifer Wood wrote:
Hi all thanks for all the replies. Some answers in short form:
* 1974 M17 * Not much rake if any, currently
I'll give it another go next time I get down to the dock. A good excuse to finally get around to adding some rake.
Here's a couple of pictures in profile with the new sail. To my eye I'd say it's about 4 inches. I can whip it over with effort, wasn't sure how much wear that adds...
Frankly the boat is neither under nor overpowered, so I didn't really set out looking for more sail area aloft.
Apologies in advance for any digital artifacts from removing sail numbers etc
On Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 1:12 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My main in very light air will just catch the backstay on my M17. Not by much. I have approximately the mast rake recommended by Jerry, maybe on the lower end of that range but still in that ballpark.
cheers, John
On 6/24/24 10:58, mike43067@gmail.com wrote:
I've had mains that brush the backstay. Might not be an issue. But if it overlaps by a foot or more you might want to have them trim it down. Mike
-----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Wood <jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2024 1:14 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Problems with new sail
Long story short, I asked for a sail cut to OEM size and shape, and they sent me one with a giant roach that hangs into my back stay.
When I asked them to fix it, this is the sail maker's reply. Is this for real, or is it a brush-off?
not completely surprised the sail hits the backstay...It would go through on a tack and is normal. Fully understand the customers mindset. We could trim some of the roach off not too big a deal
I can't see this working well in low winds, and bashing the sail into my rigging doesn't seem good for either.
Given how thoughtfully the boat was designed, is this going to mess with balance and performance?
Thanks for your thoughts.
--Jen
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I agree with John about the excessive mast rake. Also, judging from the boom's height from the cabin top it looks like the sail is hoisted very high. This is just my perspective from eyeballing the photos. I had similar problems with the stock sail on my 2007 M17 (purchased new). Not hauling the sail's head to the top of the mast fixed the roach problem. I also had a boom-too-long issue but that's another story. - Jim P. M17 "Spirit". On 6/24/2024 2:14 PM, jerry montgomery wrote:
4" is a lot. Sounds like the sailmaker might not have noticed that the 17 has a backstay! Who made the sails?
A sail with 4" of overlap will probably fight its way thru on a tack if there is good breeze but it would be a nitemare in a drifter. I'd get pushy with the sailmaker. ________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2024 1:22 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Problems with new sail
Thanks for pics...
That looks like a LOT of interference.
Mine is nowhere near that much, just the fullest part of the roach catches the backstay by an inch or so in very light air. And it's the batten that catches, if it were not near the batten it would probably just slide right thru.
It could just be the angle of the photo, but the angle of the mast off the cabin roof and compared to the mast step bracket looks like a LOT of rake. Either that or the mast is leaning quite a bit to port, which seems unlikely I hope! The more rake the more roach interference you'll get, since more rake puts the sail further back, especially the upper part, and also reduces the distance between mast and backstay, especially higher up. A full side view showing the whole boat and mast would help us see the situation better.
Also, do you have the standard masthead casting, with some overhang behind the mast to where the backstay attaches? If that was modified and the stay attaches closer to mast that would affect this also.
My M17 is a 1974 also, #38, what's your hull #?
cheers, John
On 6/24/24 13:03, Jennifer Wood wrote:
Hi all thanks for all the replies. Some answers in short form:
* 1974 M17 * Not much rake if any, currently
I'll give it another go next time I get down to the dock. A good excuse to finally get around to adding some rake.
Here's a couple of pictures in profile with the new sail. To my eye I'd say it's about 4 inches. I can whip it over with effort, wasn't sure how much wear that adds...
Frankly the boat is neither under nor overpowered, so I didn't really set out looking for more sail area aloft.
Apologies in advance for any digital artifacts from removing sail numbers etc
On Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 1:12 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My main in very light air will just catch the backstay on my M17. Not by much. I have approximately the mast rake recommended by Jerry, maybe on the lower end of that range but still in that ballpark.
cheers, John
On 6/24/24 10:58, mike43067@gmail.com wrote:
I've had mains that brush the backstay. Might not be an issue. But if it overlaps by a foot or more you might want to have them trim it down. Mike
-----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Wood <jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2024 1:14 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Problems with new sail
Long story short, I asked for a sail cut to OEM size and shape, and they sent me one with a giant roach that hangs into my back stay. When I asked them to fix it, this is the sail maker's reply. Is this for real, or is it a brush-off?
not completely surprised the sail hits the backstay...It would go through on a tack and is normal. Fully understand the customers mindset. We could trim some of the roach off not too big a deal I can't see this working well in low winds, and bashing the sail into my rigging doesn't seem good for either. Given how thoughtfully the boat was designed, is this going to mess with balance and performance? Thanks for your thoughts.
--Jen -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks. I'll try lowering the boom a bit. There is no rake -- must be a trick of the angle. It's not leaning off to either side, either. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ On Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 6:30 PM Jim Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote:
I agree with John about the excessive mast rake. Also, judging from the boom's height from the cabin top it looks like the sail is hoisted very high. This is just my perspective from eyeballing the photos.
I had similar problems with the stock sail on my 2007 M17 (purchased new). Not hauling the sail's head to the top of the mast fixed the roach problem. I also had a boom-too-long issue but that's another story.
- Jim P. M17 "Spirit".
On 6/24/2024 2:14 PM, jerry montgomery wrote:
4" is a lot. Sounds like the sailmaker might not have noticed that the 17 has a backstay! Who made the sails?
A sail with 4" of overlap will probably fight its way thru on a tack if there is good breeze but it would be a nitemare in a drifter. I'd get pushy with the sailmaker. ________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2024 1:22 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Problems with new sail
Thanks for pics...
That looks like a LOT of interference.
Mine is nowhere near that much, just the fullest part of the roach catches the backstay by an inch or so in very light air. And it's the batten that catches, if it were not near the batten it would probably just slide right thru.
It could just be the angle of the photo, but the angle of the mast off the cabin roof and compared to the mast step bracket looks like a LOT of rake. Either that or the mast is leaning quite a bit to port, which seems unlikely I hope! The more rake the more roach interference you'll get, since more rake puts the sail further back, especially the upper part, and also reduces the distance between mast and backstay, especially higher up. A full side view showing the whole boat and mast would help us see the situation better.
Also, do you have the standard masthead casting, with some overhang behind the mast to where the backstay attaches? If that was modified and the stay attaches closer to mast that would affect this also.
My M17 is a 1974 also, #38, what's your hull #?
cheers, John
On 6/24/24 13:03, Jennifer Wood wrote:
Hi all thanks for all the replies. Some answers in short form:
* 1974 M17 * Not much rake if any, currently
I'll give it another go next time I get down to the dock. A good excuse to finally get around to adding some rake.
Here's a couple of pictures in profile with the new sail. To my eye I'd say it's about 4 inches. I can whip it over with effort, wasn't sure how much wear that adds...
Frankly the boat is neither under nor overpowered, so I didn't really set out looking for more sail area aloft.
Apologies in advance for any digital artifacts from removing sail numbers etc
On Mon, Jun 24, 2024, 1:12 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My main in very light air will just catch the backstay on my M17. Not by much. I have approximately the mast rake recommended by Jerry, maybe on the lower end of that range but still in that ballpark.
cheers, John
On 6/24/24 10:58, mike43067@gmail.com wrote:
I've had mains that brush the backstay. Might not be an issue. But if it overlaps by a foot or more you might want to have them trim it down. Mike
-----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Wood <jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2024 1:14 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Problems with new sail
Long story short, I asked for a sail cut to OEM size and shape, and they sent me one with a giant roach that hangs into my back stay. When I asked them to fix it, this is the sail maker's reply. Is this for real, or is it a brush-off?
not completely surprised the sail hits the backstay...It would go through on a tack and is normal. Fully understand the customers mindset. We could trim some of the roach off not too big a deal I can't see this working well in low winds, and bashing the sail into my rigging doesn't seem good for either. Given how thoughtfully the boat was designed, is this going to mess with balance and performance? Thanks for your thoughts.
--Jen -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Couple of questions- which model boat, what hull # and age, what sailmaker, do you have an adjustable backstay? How much mast rake does the boat carry? Is the boom/gooseneck fixed or sliding? Answers to these would enable an informed response. I am not here to bash ANY sailmakers, there are numerous variables in the boats covered by the group, ( low production numbers delivered) and it is a good idea for any owner to measure the rig and ask the sailmaker if they require additional measurements. Unfortunately this process is not akin to purchasing tires for your car. There are multiple ‘production’ rigs delivered over the years that have substantially different dimensions. Add the ‘owner modified’ changes, ( damaged spars, nonstandard replacements ),and there is quite the variety. I would advise all persons ordering sails from ANY sailmaker to provide accurate measurements of their rig. If the sailmaker doesn’t request measurements, I would consider that an indicator of the company’s less than optimal service. Many sailmakers in the business today are ‘order takers’, meaning they forward an order for a sail (based on the customers request - ACME 21 mainsail 2 reefs) typically to an offshore facility that cuts fabric and assembles sails. Check your sail for a ‘Made in______’ tag. An offshore facility may have little if any experience with your ACME 21 boat or it’s sails. Add the various dimensions due to manufacturing changes, and ill fitting sails can occur if measurements for individual rigs are not provided to the sailmaker. There are data bases for common production sails, BUT, some of these may not fit your boat. If the sailmaker that built your sail is the “ they know your boat / they were the OEM supplier” - please contact them and ask for help - consider each and every boat unique and provide all sailmakers with accurate rig dimensions, including information such as mast bend, typical sailing conditions - light air, flat water, etc, typical headsails/furler used, as this will aid the sailmaker in fitting the product to your boat. BTW - many mainsails on boats with back stays, will brush the stay when tacking. The backstay flicker was devised to assist in extreme cases or when the sail is used in predominantly lighter air conditions. Good luck- contact your sailmaker, good photos of the sail from the backstay perspective will help. Have fUn,go sail! GO On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 10:14 AM Jennifer Wood < jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> wrote:
Long story short, I asked for a sail cut to OEM size and shape, and they sent me one with a giant roach that hangs into my back stay.
When I asked them to fix it, this is the sail maker's reply. Is this for real, or is it a brush-off?
not completely surprised the sail hits the backstay...It would go through on a tack and is normal. Fully understand the customers mindset. We could trim some of the roach off not too big a deal
I can't see this working well in low winds, and bashing the sail into my rigging doesn't seem good for either.
Given how thoughtfully the boat was designed, is this going to mess with balance and performance?
Thanks for your thoughts.
--Jen
participants (7)
-
casioqv＠usermail.com -
Gary H.Oberbeck -
Jennifer Wood -
jerry montgomery -
Jim Poulakis -
John Schinnerer -
mike43067＠gmail.com