M15 Furler Headstay mast connections
I'm seriously preparing to begin to commence to start to get a CDI-FF1 furler for the M15 and I'm looking for comments/criticisms My motivation is I currently have a hank-on-reefable-jib which is actually fine for lake sailing, but in the bigger ocean waves, I'd like to have an easier way to reduce the jib...mainly because the wave action makes me reluctant to spend time away from the tiller So I don't intend to keep the furler on the boat, but would rather take it off and replace it with the simple hank-on-forestay which I'lluse about 80% of the time and only 20% use the furler when going on bigger water. So what do you furler guys do when putting the mast back on the trailer? Do you detach it at the mast and slide it up so it doesn't stick out when trailering? What sort of fittings/toggles/turnbuckles do you use? I'm looking at EP sails and precision sails, but what percentage jib/genoa should I go for? I think stock hank-on was 125%, but with a furler, should I go larger because I can always furl it down? Any advice appreciated, including questions I don't even know enough to ask.
I recommend using a hank on jib with a downhaul. A furler over-complicates the rigging of the M15. Additionally you will need to modify the hounds, where forestay and shrouds attach to the mast, as the standard set-up will not work with a furler. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 07:14 Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'm seriously preparing to begin to commence to start to get a CDI-FF1 furler for the M15 and I'm looking for comments/criticisms My motivation is I currently have a hank-on-reefable-jib which is actually fine for lake sailing, but in the bigger ocean waves, I'd like to have an easier way to reduce the jib...mainly because the wave action makes me reluctant to spend time away from the tiller
So I don't intend to keep the furler on the boat, but would rather take it off and replace it with the simple hank-on-forestay which I'lluse about 80% of the time and only 20% use the furler when going on bigger water.
So what do you furler guys do when putting the mast back on the trailer? Do you detach it at the mast and slide it up so it doesn't stick out when trailering? What sort of fittings/toggles/turnbuckles do you use?
I'm looking at EP sails and precision sails, but what percentage jib/genoa should I go for? I think stock hank-on was 125%, but with a furler, should I go larger because I can always furl it down?
Any advice appreciated, including questions I don't even know enough to ask.
I'm interested in how you would modifiy where the forestay attaches to the mast. I believe on mine it is a 4-1/2 1/4 stainless inch bolt that goes through the mast and all 3 stays are mounted on it with the forestay going through a slot in the front of the mast. On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 07:44:59 AM PST, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: I recommend using a hank on jib with a downhaul. A furler over-complicates the rigging of the M15. Additionally you will need to modify the hounds, where forestay and shrouds attach to the mast, as the standard set-up will not work with a furler. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 07:14 Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'm seriously preparing to begin to commence to start to get a CDI-FF1 furler for the M15 and I'm looking for comments/criticisms My motivation is I currently have a hank-on-reefable-jib which is actually fine for lake sailing, but in the bigger ocean waves, I'd like to have an easier way to reduce the jib...mainly because the wave action makes me reluctant to spend time away from the tiller
So I don't intend to keep the furler on the boat, but would rather take it off and replace it with the simple hank-on-forestay which I'lluse about 80% of the time and only 20% use the furler when going on bigger water.
So what do you furler guys do when putting the mast back on the trailer? Do you detach it at the mast and slide it up so it doesn't stick out when trailering? What sort of fittings/toggles/turnbuckles do you use?
I'm looking at EP sails and precision sails, but what percentage jib/genoa should I go for? I think stock hank-on was 125%, but with a furler, should I go larger because I can always furl it down?
Any advice appreciated, including questions I don't even know enough to ask.
Lawrence: The issue is as the forestay exits the mast it will rub against the opening and lead to a failure of the wire. A tag could be added and then the necessary toggles. A new forestay is the needed with a toggle at the head and a turnbuckle w/toggle at the bottom. IMO how often are you sailing in high numbers wind/wave conditions? Can you get a high wind jib (not storm), or add reefs to the existing jib (if current in excellent condition)? Choosing a smaller headsail before heading out and then going to a larger at sea is easier then the opposite. The waves are the danger not the wind. I've sailed 15s double reefed with the standard jib in 20kts in short fetch locations (aka not big waves) without concern. Pinching in the puffs without full or more than 30%-ish luffing is the trick. (Luffing the main going to weather on a M15 will cause the boat heal MORE as the forestay sags and the jib takes the shape of a sack (also a problem with a partially rolled up headsail). :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 10:25 Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'm interested in how you would modifiy where the forestay attaches to the mast. I believe on mine it is a 4-1/2 1/4 stainless inch bolt that goes through the mast and all 3 stays are mounted on it with the forestay going through a slot in the front of the mast.
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 07:44:59 AM PST, Dave Scobie < scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
I recommend using a hank on jib with a downhaul. A furler over-complicates the rigging of the M15.
Additionally you will need to modify the hounds, where forestay and shrouds attach to the mast, as the standard set-up will not work with a furler.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 07:14 Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'm seriously preparing to begin to commence to start to get a CDI-FF1 furler for the M15 and I'm looking for comments/criticisms My motivation is I currently have a hank-on-reefable-jib which is actually fine for lake sailing, but in the bigger ocean waves, I'd like to have an easier way to reduce the jib...mainly because the wave action makes me reluctant to spend time away from the tiller
So I don't intend to keep the furler on the boat, but would rather take it off and replace it with the simple hank-on-forestay which I'lluse about 80% of the time and only 20% use the furler when going on bigger water.
So what do you furler guys do when putting the mast back on the trailer? Do you detach it at the mast and slide it up so it doesn't stick out when trailering? What sort of fittings/toggles/turnbuckles do you use?
I'm looking at EP sails and precision sails, but what percentage jib/genoa should I go for? I think stock hank-on was 125%, but with a furler, should I go larger because I can always furl it down?
Any advice appreciated, including questions I don't even know enough to ask.
I've really only had the 1 time, but that was enough for me. :-). I mostly lake sail in Oregon, but I'm trying to get to the point to do multi-night adventures in Puget Sound and the Gulf Islands, and while lack of wind is usually the problem, some of the crossings can get pretty sporty and it's not like people don't break masts and call the coast guard occasionally. I'm trying to avoid becoming one of those. I know this was your haunts in the past. Did you ever facea bad crossing? I've got a reefable jib and yes, this works great. IF I get it in before, but honestly sometimes you just can't anticipate exactly. Keeping itreefed may be the safer option in the short term, but then again going slower, might mean you are out longer in bad weather or too far out where the waves are bigger. I've been thinking about this for years. It's a lot of money and extra complication, but for what I think I want to be able to do, I thinkit will make me feel a little more confident. And as I said, I only plan on using it when I'm out exposed anyway. As far as the forestay goes, do you mean kind of a short pigtail at the top? Any pictures by chance? On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 10:52:23 AM PST, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: Lawrence: The issue is as the forestay exits the mast it will rub against the opening and lead to a failure of the wire. A tag could be added and then the necessary toggles. A new forestay is the needed with a toggle at the head and a turnbuckle w/toggle at the bottom. IMO how often are you sailing in high numbers wind/wave conditions? Can you get a high wind jib (not storm), or add reefs to the existing jib (if current in excellent condition)? Choosing a smaller headsail before heading out and then going to a larger at sea is easier then the opposite. The waves are the danger not the wind. I've sailed 15s double reefed with the standard jib in 20kts in short fetch locations (aka not big waves) without concern. Pinching in the puffs without full or more than 30%-ish luffing is the trick. (Luffing the main going to weather on a M15 will cause the boat heal MORE as the forestay sags and the jib takes the shape of a sack (also a problem with a partially rolled up headsail). :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 10:25 Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'm interested in how you would modifiy where the forestay attaches to the mast. I believe on mine it is a 4-1/2 1/4 stainless inch bolt that goes through the mast and all 3 stays are mounted on it with the forestay going through a slot in the front of the mast.
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 07:44:59 AM PST, Dave Scobie < scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
I recommend using a hank on jib with a downhaul. A furler over-complicates the rigging of the M15.
Additionally you will need to modify the hounds, where forestay and shrouds attach to the mast, as the standard set-up will not work with a furler.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 07:14 Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'm seriously preparing to begin to commence to start to get a CDI-FF1 furler for the M15 and I'm looking for comments/criticisms My motivation is I currently have a hank-on-reefable-jib which is actually fine for lake sailing, but in the bigger ocean waves, I'd like to have an easier way to reduce the jib...mainly because the wave action makes me reluctant to spend time away from the tiller
So I don't intend to keep the furler on the boat, but would rather take it off and replace it with the simple hank-on-forestay which I'lluse about 80% of the time and only 20% use the furler when going on bigger water.
So what do you furler guys do when putting the mast back on the trailer? Do you detach it at the mast and slide it up so it doesn't stick out when trailering? What sort of fittings/toggles/turnbuckles do you use?
I'm looking at EP sails and precision sails, but what percentage jib/genoa should I go for? I think stock hank-on was 125%, but with a furler, should I go larger because I can always furl it down?
Any advice appreciated, including questions I don't even know enough to ask.
Hi Lawrence, If you rig a line from a cleat to the tiller; and opposing that use a piece of medical tubing (very stretchable and available at Medical Supply Stores by the foot), you can build a self-steering system. When you are on a heading, and find the right line / rubber tubing balance, it will hold a course for you so that you can reef the jib easily. Connie ex M15 #400 LEPPO On 1/13/2023 9:14 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats wrote:
I'm seriously preparing to begin to commence to start to get a CDI-FF1 furler for the M15 and I'm looking for comments/criticisms My motivation is I currently have a hank-on-reefable-jib which is actually fine for lake sailing, but in the bigger ocean waves, I'd like to have an easier way to reduce the jib...mainly because the wave action makes me reluctant to spend time away from the tiller
So I don't intend to keep the furler on the boat, but would rather take it off and replace it with the simple hank-on-forestay which I'lluse about 80% of the time and only 20% use the furler when going on bigger water.
So what do you furler guys do when putting the mast back on the trailer? Do you detach it at the mast and slide it up so it doesn't stick out when trailering? What sort of fittings/toggles/turnbuckles do you use?
I'm looking at EP sails and precision sails, but what percentage jib/genoa should I go for? I think stock hank-on was 125%, but with a furler, should I go larger because I can always furl it down?
Any advice appreciated, including questions I don't even know enough to ask.
A few thoughts from an M17 owner who is very glad to have a furler and reefable jibs, pondering what if anything might make it less awesome on an M15... One difference is that on an M17 the forestay is always tensioned by the backstay. So there is zero problem with the stay, and thus the furler extrusion, sagging. On an M15, no backstay, forestay tension dependent on mainsheet, I could imagine situations where luffing the main or for whatever reason losing some tension on the forestay might put enough sag in it that the furler action would be impaired. So maybe that could make a furler hard to work when you wanted it most? That's about the only way I can imagine it jamming, assuming it's installed properly. They're so simple. And it would have to sag a lot to impair furling. For me the main reason for a furler is to control the size of a reefable jib. For that you absolutely want a jib made for reefing on a furler, with the appropriate luff padding to keep good sail shape as you reef it. Otherwise, if the need is just to douse the jib, I agree with others who have expressed satisfaction with a jib downhaul. I set up a jib downhaul on my M17 before I got the furler, it was very handy. But it's all or nothing, all power and pointing ability the jib provides is lost when doused. Whereas even reefed quite a ways down it still works much better than no jib. Meanwhile to your other questions, my furler stays on when I de-rig, it just lies atop the mast from masthead on down (with a bunch of bungee-ball cords to keep it there along with the stays & shrouds etc.). It hangs over the bottom end of the mast (front of boat when mast is down) a few feet, I have a piece of wood that goes into bottom of mast and sticks out to support it level with the part resting on the mast. cheers, John On 1/13/23 07:14, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats wrote:
I'm seriously preparing to begin to commence to start to get a CDI-FF1 furler for the M15 and I'm looking for comments/criticisms My motivation is I currently have a hank-on-reefable-jib which is actually fine for lake sailing, but in the bigger ocean waves, I'd like to have an easier way to reduce the jib...mainly because the wave action makes me reluctant to spend time away from the tiller
So I don't intend to keep the furler on the boat, but would rather take it off and replace it with the simple hank-on-forestay which I'lluse about 80% of the time and only 20% use the furler when going on bigger water.
So what do you furler guys do when putting the mast back on the trailer? Do you detach it at the mast and slide it up so it doesn't stick out when trailering? What sort of fittings/toggles/turnbuckles do you use?
I'm looking at EP sails and precision sails, but what percentage jib/genoa should I go for? I think stock hank-on was 125%, but with a furler, should I go larger because I can always furl it down?
Any advice appreciated, including questions I don't even know enough to ask.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Forgot to say, if you really think you'll only use the furler 20% or so of outings, then just having a smaller hank-on jib (and jib downhaul) for that 20% of use makes more sense to me. As I see it a furler is a 'permanent' installation. Meaning, it goes on and stays on. If you wanted to switch from furler to hank-on reasonably quickly, I'd say you'd want a separate forestay for each. One with the furler on it, one without. Then just swap out the whole forestay. That will be quicker and easier than removing or reinstalling the furler on a one and only forestay. cheers, John On 1/13/23 07:14, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats wrote:
I'm seriously preparing to begin to commence to start to get a CDI-FF1 furler for the M15 and I'm looking for comments/criticisms My motivation is I currently have a hank-on-reefable-jib which is actually fine for lake sailing, but in the bigger ocean waves, I'd like to have an easier way to reduce the jib...mainly because the wave action makes me reluctant to spend time away from the tiller
So I don't intend to keep the furler on the boat, but would rather take it off and replace it with the simple hank-on-forestay which I'lluse about 80% of the time and only 20% use the furler when going on bigger water.
So what do you furler guys do when putting the mast back on the trailer? Do you detach it at the mast and slide it up so it doesn't stick out when trailering? What sort of fittings/toggles/turnbuckles do you use?
I'm looking at EP sails and precision sails, but what percentage jib/genoa should I go for? I think stock hank-on was 125%, but with a furler, should I go larger because I can always furl it down?
Any advice appreciated, including questions I don't even know enough to ask.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Yes, this is what I want, to swap out the forestay. I think however the m15 forestay istotally different than the m17. That's good advice about the board, I was thinking about this exact problem, however the m15 is fractionally rigged, meaning the forestay is shorter than the mast, so it seems to me that if the furler "was" disconnected (i.e. some sort of toggle at the top) then the whole furler "could" be slid down the mast and you wouldn't need the board. That was what I was talking about and whether this iswhat people did. On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 11:55:12 AM PST, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: Forgot to say, if you really think you'll only use the furler 20% or so of outings, then just having a smaller hank-on jib (and jib downhaul) for that 20% of use makes more sense to me. As I see it a furler is a 'permanent' installation. Meaning, it goes on and stays on. If you wanted to switch from furler to hank-on reasonably quickly, I'd say you'd want a separate forestay for each. One with the furler on it, one without. Then just swap out the whole forestay. That will be quicker and easier than removing or reinstalling the furler on a one and only forestay. cheers, John On 1/13/23 07:14, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats wrote:
I'm seriously preparing to begin to commence to start to get a CDI-FF1 furler for the M15 and I'm looking for comments/criticisms My motivation is I currently have a hank-on-reefable-jib which is actually fine for lake sailing, but in the bigger ocean waves, I'd like to have an easier way to reduce the jib...mainly because the wave action makes me reluctant to spend time away from the tiller
So I don't intend to keep the furler on the boat, but would rather take it off and replace it with the simple hank-on-forestay which I'lluse about 80% of the time and only 20% use the furler when going on bigger water.
So what do you furler guys do when putting the mast back on the trailer? Do you detach it at the mast and slide it up so it doesn't stick out when trailering? What sort of fittings/toggles/turnbuckles do you use?
I'm looking at EP sails and precision sails, but what percentage jib/genoa should I go for? I think stock hank-on was 125%, but with a furler, should I go larger because I can always furl it down?
Any advice appreciated, including questions I don't even know enough to ask.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
OK I see what you mean about positioning the furler because the stay is shorter than mast. So yeah on an M15 if you wanted to detach the top of the forestay you could slide it all 'up' and have the whole extrusion resting on the mast. The furler drum would still need to hang off over the end. But if it was right up against the bottom of mast and the extrusion was secured to the mast you probably wouldn't need a separate support for the drum. It's having some length of the extrusion hanging off the end where you need suport, or you're at risk of it breaking off from flexing around. Plus it will sag and deform the extrusion if it's not supported. It's a bit of extra work either way, detaching the stay and repositioning the furler, or, setting up support for the part of the furler that hangs over. I will post a couple pics of my furler support... cheers, John On 1/13/23 12:04, Lawrence Winiarski wrote:
Yes, this is what I want, to swap out the forestay. I think however the m15 forestay is totally different than the m17.
That's good advice about the board, I was thinking about this exact problem, however the m15 is fractionally rigged, meaning the forestay is shorter than the mast, so it seems to me that if the furler "was" disconnected (i.e. some sort of toggle at the top) then the whole furler "could" be slid down the mast and you wouldn't need the board. That was what I was talking about and whether this is what people did.
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 11:55:12 AM PST, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Forgot to say, if you really think you'll only use the furler 20% or so of outings, then just having a smaller hank-on jib (and jib downhaul) for that 20% of use makes more sense to me.
As I see it a furler is a 'permanent' installation. Meaning, it goes on and stays on.
If you wanted to switch from furler to hank-on reasonably quickly, I'd say you'd want a separate forestay for each. One with the furler on it, one without. Then just swap out the whole forestay. That will be quicker and easier than removing or reinstalling the furler on a one and only forestay.
cheers, John
On 1/13/23 07:14, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats wrote:
I'm seriously preparing to begin to commence to start to get a CDI-FF1 furler for the M15 and I'm looking for comments/criticisms My motivation is I currently have a hank-on-reefable-jib which is actually fine for lake sailing, but in the bigger ocean waves, I'd like to have an easier way to reduce the jib...mainly because the wave action makes me reluctant to spend time away from the tiller
So I don't intend to keep the furler on the boat, but would rather take it off and replace it with the simple hank-on-forestay which I'lluse about 80% of the time and only 20% use the furler when going on bigger water.
So what do you furler guys do when putting the mast back on the trailer? Do you detach it at the mast and slide it up so it doesn't stick out when trailering? What sort of fittings/toggles/turnbuckles do you use?
I'm looking at EP sails and precision sails, but what percentage jib/genoa should I go for? I think stock hank-on was 125%, but with a furler, should I go larger because I can always furl it down?
Any advice appreciated, including questions I don't even know enough to ask.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <mailto:john@eco-living.net> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net <http://eco-living.net> http://sociocracyconsulting.com <http://sociocracyconsulting.com>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (4)
-
Conbert Benneck -
Dave Scobie -
John Schinnerer -
Lawrence Winiarski