The guy who actually did the work on the bottom paint stopped by the marina today and he told us that after they replaced the pin, They covered it with three layers of glass cloth and resin so it’s hard to imagine water coming in that way. What it would be really helpful to have is a drawing that shows a cross-section of the entire keel/trunk/bilge from a fore and aft direction, As well as athwartship. I’m particularly interested in knowing where there might be wood. Given the way the pin was replaced, it’s really hard to Fathom where the water might be getting in and how it is getting past the ballast and the resin. I did Jerry’s tap test and everything sounds like it should. My plan at this point is to plug the crack with boat life right now Just to confirm that that is the problem. If it stops the water accumulation, then I will know what the problem is. It can be removed when I haul to fix. My fiberglass guy will be back in 10 days and I will have him take a look at it and come up with a plan at that point. If I can continue to use the boat until he is ready to fix it, that would be a bonus. So Jerry, any construction-drawings that you might have that would help my fiberglass guy and myself trace the water path, that would be great. And hopefully we can also get them from Barb since he built this actual boat. And thanks Jim for all the help Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:13 AM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: Hey Jerry,
I am the prior owner. I met you and you saw the boat in Havasu one year, it has a green hull if you remember. The boat has been in SoCal it's entire life until Mary purchased her in November last year. She is in WA. The boat has never had bottom paint but for her use she had a barrier coat and bottom paint applied which included removing the centerboard and painting that as well. I purchased the boat in 2008. did 3 weeks in the San Juans in 2009, several trips to Catalina and tons of sailing from San Diego to Ventura and have never experienced any leakes. She has been on the hard for around 7 years and last year was trailered to Pacific for some trailer upgrades then down to my house in Temecula where she has been for a year. Because of my many years of use I am sure any manufacturing issues would have come up during my ownership so I am thinking something was damaged either at Pacific or at Mary's yard. I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened. So from what you are saying she needs to pull the boat, put water inside the cabin and hopefully see where it exits on the outside correct? This would have been a lot easier to find without the new bottom paint applied. Thanks for your input, Mary, myself and others seeing our postings are at a loss for what really happened. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 8:09 AM jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
Mary- Could you send me a photo of the depression please? I'm curious. I'm at jmbn1@outlook.com.
Thanks.
Jerry
________________________________ From: mariellec--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 7:33 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: mariellec@yahoo.com <mariellec@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge
Well, I posted about this last night but I don't see my post showing up, so I will try again. I found the leak that Jim described (I bought his boat). About one inch aft of the bulkhead that supports the aft end of the v-berth, on the cabin sole, right in the center, is a small round depression in the fiberglass about the size of a quarter. From looking at the boat drawings, it looks like it is right above the pivot pin. There is a crack about 1" long across that small round area and I can watch water weeping slowly out of that crack. If I could figure out a way to post a photo, I would do that but there does not seem to be a photo option here - I can email one to anyone who asks. I have posted on the facebook page as well. The cabin sole was covered by a small carpet when I bought the boat and put it in the yard for the bottom paint job, so I don't know if the crack was there before the bottom job. Can I fix this in the water with something like marine tex? If I haul it on the trailer, can I fix it from above with real epoxy? Or do I need to get under the boat and fix it from the inside of the centerboard trunk? And, what could hav caused this? I am not sure of the purpose or cause of that little round depression in the glass.
FWIW my boat also had a small crack in the cabin floor pan right at the junction of the V-berth bulkhead from which water would seep. Turned out this was rain water/bilge water that had accumulated in the small gap between the cabin floor (liner) and the actual hull. My fix was to put a 3" inspection port in the floor centered forward right at the V-berth bulkhead. This allowed me to sponge out the remaining water and let it thoroughly dry. I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry Henry Monita On Sat, Apr 2, 2022, 1:45 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
The guy who actually did the work on the bottom paint stopped by the marina today and he told us that after they replaced the pin, They covered it with three layers of glass cloth and resin so it’s hard to imagine water coming in that way. What it would be really helpful to have is a drawing that shows a cross-section of the entire keel/trunk/bilge from a fore and aft direction, As well as athwartship. I’m particularly interested in knowing where there might be wood. Given the way the pin was replaced, it’s really hard to Fathom where the water might be getting in and how it is getting past the ballast and the resin. I did Jerry’s tap test and everything sounds like it should. My plan at this point is to plug the crack with boat life right now Just to confirm that that is the problem. If it stops the water accumulation, then I will know what the problem is. It can be removed when I haul to fix. My fiberglass guy will be back in 10 days and I will have him take a look at it and come up with a plan at that point. If I can continue to use the boat until he is ready to fix it, that would be a bonus.
So Jerry, any construction-drawings that you might have that would help my fiberglass guy and myself trace the water path, that would be great. And hopefully we can also get them from Barb since he built this actual boat. And thanks Jim for all the help Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:13 AM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: Hey Jerry,
I am the prior owner. I met you and you saw the boat in Havasu one year, it has a green hull if you remember. The boat has been in SoCal it's entire life until Mary purchased her in November last year. She is in WA. The boat has never had bottom paint but for her use she had a barrier coat and bottom paint applied which included removing the centerboard and painting that as well. I purchased the boat in 2008. did 3 weeks in the San Juans in 2009, several trips to Catalina and tons of sailing from San Diego to Ventura and have never experienced any leakes. She has been on the hard for around 7 years and last year was trailered to Pacific for some trailer upgrades then down to my house in Temecula where she has been for a year. Because of my many years of use I am sure any manufacturing issues would have come up during my ownership so I am thinking something was damaged either at Pacific or at Mary's yard. I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened. So from what you are saying she needs to pull the boat, put water inside the cabin and hopefully see where it exits on the outside correct? This would have been a lot easier to find without the new bottom paint applied. Thanks for your input, Mary, myself and others seeing our postings are at a loss for what really happened. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 8:09 AM jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
Mary- Could you send me a photo of the depression please? I'm curious. I'm at jmbn1@outlook.com.
Thanks.
Jerry
________________________________ From: mariellec--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 7:33 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: mariellec@yahoo.com <mariellec@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge
Well, I posted about this last night but I don't see my post showing up, so I will try again. I found the leak that Jim described (I bought his boat). About one inch aft of the bulkhead that supports the aft end of the v-berth, on the cabin sole, right in the center, is a small round depression in the fiberglass about the size of a quarter. From looking at the boat drawings, it looks like it is right above the pivot pin. There is a crack about 1" long across that small round area and I can watch water weeping slowly out of that crack. If I could figure out a way to post a photo, I would do that but there does not seem to be a photo option here - I can email one to anyone who asks. I have posted on the facebook page as well. The cabin sole was covered by a small carpet when I bought the boat and put it in the yard for the bottom paint job, so I don't know if the crack was there before the bottom job. Can I fix this in the water with something like marine tex? If I haul it on the trailer, can I fix it from above with real epoxy? Or do I need to get under the boat and fix it from the inside of the centerboard trunk? And, what could hav caused this? I am not sure of the purpose or cause of that little round depression in the glass.
That’s interesting. The water that’s coming out of my crack is salt and it doesn’t stop, like I would imagine it would if it was a bit of rainwater or condensation from time to time. When I tap all around it it sounds solid like it’s sealed to the ballast underneath. It Doesn’t sound like there’s a gap there Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:59 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
FWIW my boat also had a small crack in the cabin floor pan right at the junction of the V-berth bulkhead from which water would seep. Turned out this was rain water/bilge water that had accumulated in the small gap between the cabin floor (liner) and the actual hull. My fix was to put a 3" inspection port in the floor centered forward right at the V-berth bulkhead. This allowed me to sponge out the remaining water and let it thoroughly dry.
I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry
Henry Monita
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022, 1:45 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
The guy who actually did the work on the bottom paint stopped by the marina today and he told us that after they replaced the pin, They covered it with three layers of glass cloth and resin so it’s hard to imagine water coming in that way. What it would be really helpful to have is a drawing that shows a cross-section of the entire keel/trunk/bilge from a fore and aft direction, As well as athwartship. I’m particularly interested in knowing where there might be wood. Given the way the pin was replaced, it’s really hard to Fathom where the water might be getting in and how it is getting past the ballast and the resin. I did Jerry’s tap test and everything sounds like it should. My plan at this point is to plug the crack with boat life right now Just to confirm that that is the problem. If it stops the water accumulation, then I will know what the problem is. It can be removed when I haul to fix. My fiberglass guy will be back in 10 days and I will have him take a look at it and come up with a plan at that point. If I can continue to use the boat until he is ready to fix it, that would be a bonus.
So Jerry, any construction-drawings that you might have that would help my fiberglass guy and myself trace the water path, that would be great. And hopefully we can also get them from Barb since he built this actual boat. And thanks Jim for all the help Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:13 AM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: Hey Jerry,
I am the prior owner. I met you and you saw the boat in Havasu one year, it has a green hull if you remember. The boat has been in SoCal it's entire life until Mary purchased her in November last year. She is in WA. The boat has never had bottom paint but for her use she had a barrier coat and bottom paint applied which included removing the centerboard and painting that as well. I purchased the boat in 2008. did 3 weeks in the San Juans in 2009, several trips to Catalina and tons of sailing from San Diego to Ventura and have never experienced any leakes. She has been on the hard for around 7 years and last year was trailered to Pacific for some trailer upgrades then down to my house in Temecula where she has been for a year. Because of my many years of use I am sure any manufacturing issues would have come up during my ownership so I am thinking something was damaged either at Pacific or at Mary's yard. I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened. So from what you are saying she needs to pull the boat, put water inside the cabin and hopefully see where it exits on the outside correct? This would have been a lot easier to find without the new bottom paint applied. Thanks for your input, Mary, myself and others seeing our postings are at a loss for what really happened. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 8:09 AM jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
Mary- Could you send me a photo of the depression please? I'm curious. I'm at jmbn1@outlook.com.
Thanks.
Jerry
________________________________ From: mariellec--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 7:33 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: mariellec@yahoo.com <mariellec@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge
Well, I posted about this last night but I don't see my post showing up, so I will try again. I found the leak that Jim described (I bought his boat). About one inch aft of the bulkhead that supports the aft end of the v-berth, on the cabin sole, right in the center, is a small round depression in the fiberglass about the size of a quarter. From looking at the boat drawings, it looks like it is right above the pivot pin. There is a crack about 1" long across that small round area and I can watch water weeping slowly out of that crack. If I could figure out a way to post a photo, I would do that but there does not seem to be a photo option here - I can email one to anyone who asks. I have posted on the facebook page as well. The cabin sole was covered by a small carpet when I bought the boat and put it in the yard for the bottom paint job, so I don't know if the crack was there before the bottom job. Can I fix this in the water with something like marine tex? If I haul it on the trailer, can I fix it from above with real epoxy? Or do I need to get under the boat and fix it from the inside of the centerboard trunk? And, what could hav caused this? I am not sure of the purpose or cause of that little round depression in the glass.
I definately agree with Hen ry- "I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry". And, as I stated before, find and fix the place where the water is getting in first. If it was one of my boats, there would not be any wood down there. Can't say about Eeg's work. ________________________________ From: Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 11:58 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge FWIW my boat also had a small crack in the cabin floor pan right at the junction of the V-berth bulkhead from which water would seep. Turned out this was rain water/bilge water that had accumulated in the small gap between the cabin floor (liner) and the actual hull. My fix was to put a 3" inspection port in the floor centered forward right at the V-berth bulkhead. This allowed me to sponge out the remaining water and let it thoroughly dry. I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry Henry Monita On Sat, Apr 2, 2022, 1:45 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
The guy who actually did the work on the bottom paint stopped by the marina today and he told us that after they replaced the pin, They covered it with three layers of glass cloth and resin so it’s hard to imagine water coming in that way. What it would be really helpful to have is a drawing that shows a cross-section of the entire keel/trunk/bilge from a fore and aft direction, As well as athwartship. I’m particularly interested in knowing where there might be wood. Given the way the pin was replaced, it’s really hard to Fathom where the water might be getting in and how it is getting past the ballast and the resin. I did Jerry’s tap test and everything sounds like it should. My plan at this point is to plug the crack with boat life right now Just to confirm that that is the problem. If it stops the water accumulation, then I will know what the problem is. It can be removed when I haul to fix. My fiberglass guy will be back in 10 days and I will have him take a look at it and come up with a plan at that point. If I can continue to use the boat until he is ready to fix it, that would be a bonus.
So Jerry, any construction-drawings that you might have that would help my fiberglass guy and myself trace the water path, that would be great. And hopefully we can also get them from Barb since he built this actual boat. And thanks Jim for all the help Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:13 AM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: Hey Jerry,
I am the prior owner. I met you and you saw the boat in Havasu one year, it has a green hull if you remember. The boat has been in SoCal it's entire life until Mary purchased her in November last year. She is in WA. The boat has never had bottom paint but for her use she had a barrier coat and bottom paint applied which included removing the centerboard and painting that as well. I purchased the boat in 2008. did 3 weeks in the San Juans in 2009, several trips to Catalina and tons of sailing from San Diego to Ventura and have never experienced any leakes. She has been on the hard for around 7 years and last year was trailered to Pacific for some trailer upgrades then down to my house in Temecula where she has been for a year. Because of my many years of use I am sure any manufacturing issues would have come up during my ownership so I am thinking something was damaged either at Pacific or at Mary's yard. I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened. So from what you are saying she needs to pull the boat, put water inside the cabin and hopefully see where it exits on the outside correct? This would have been a lot easier to find without the new bottom paint applied. Thanks for your input, Mary, myself and others seeing our postings are at a loss for what really happened. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 8:09 AM jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
Mary- Could you send me a photo of the depression please? I'm curious. I'm at jmbn1@outlook.com.
Thanks.
Jerry
________________________________ From: mariellec--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 7:33 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: mariellec@yahoo.com <mariellec@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge
Well, I posted about this last night but I don't see my post showing up, so I will try again. I found the leak that Jim described (I bought his boat). About one inch aft of the bulkhead that supports the aft end of the v-berth, on the cabin sole, right in the center, is a small round depression in the fiberglass about the size of a quarter. From looking at the boat drawings, it looks like it is right above the pivot pin. There is a crack about 1" long across that small round area and I can watch water weeping slowly out of that crack. If I could figure out a way to post a photo, I would do that but there does not seem to be a photo option here - I can email one to anyone who asks. I have posted on the facebook page as well. The cabin sole was covered by a small carpet when I bought the boat and put it in the yard for the bottom paint job, so I don't know if the crack was there before the bottom job. Can I fix this in the water with something like marine tex? If I haul it on the trailer, can I fix it from above with real epoxy? Or do I need to get under the boat and fix it from the inside of the centerboard trunk? And, what could hav caused this? I am not sure of the purpose or cause of that little round depression in the glass.
Thanks Jerry. Bob says there’s no wood down there. He also pointed out that the dent looks like the face of a hammer, which I think is right on, but I have no idea who would’ve banged on it. What I did as a troubleshooting measure is to Put a few layers of duct tape over the crack Just to see if that solved the apparent problem. Tomorrow I will find out if the boat is now dry and also if shutting out that egress forces water into some other place. I suppose if somebody did bang on it with a hammer that could’ve cracked the liner but it must have also cracked the upper edge of the center board envelope to allow water in. That boat was so pristine and so well cared for and so beautiful that it’s really hard for me to imagine what could’ve happened to it. And I watched it get hauled both times and nobody dropped it. Well, it seems like it has everybody baffled… Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 2:20 PM, jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
I definately agree with Hen ry- "I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry". And, as I stated before, find and fix the place where the water is getting in first.
If it was one of my boats, there would not be any wood down there. Can't say about Eeg's work.
________________________________ From: Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 11:58 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge
FWIW my boat also had a small crack in the cabin floor pan right at the junction of the V-berth bulkhead from which water would seep. Turned out this was rain water/bilge water that had accumulated in the small gap between the cabin floor (liner) and the actual hull. My fix was to put a 3" inspection port in the floor centered forward right at the V-berth bulkhead. This allowed me to sponge out the remaining water and let it thoroughly dry.
I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry
Henry Monita
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022, 1:45 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
The guy who actually did the work on the bottom paint stopped by the marina today and he told us that after they replaced the pin, They covered it with three layers of glass cloth and resin so it’s hard to imagine water coming in that way. What it would be really helpful to have is a drawing that shows a cross-section of the entire keel/trunk/bilge from a fore and aft direction, As well as athwartship. I’m particularly interested in knowing where there might be wood. Given the way the pin was replaced, it’s really hard to Fathom where the water might be getting in and how it is getting past the ballast and the resin. I did Jerry’s tap test and everything sounds like it should. My plan at this point is to plug the crack with boat life right now Just to confirm that that is the problem. If it stops the water accumulation, then I will know what the problem is. It can be removed when I haul to fix. My fiberglass guy will be back in 10 days and I will have him take a look at it and come up with a plan at that point. If I can continue to use the boat until he is ready to fix it, that would be a bonus.
So Jerry, any construction-drawings that you might have that would help my fiberglass guy and myself trace the water path, that would be great. And hopefully we can also get them from Barb since he built this actual boat. And thanks Jim for all the help Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:13 AM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: Hey Jerry,
I am the prior owner. I met you and you saw the boat in Havasu one year, it has a green hull if you remember. The boat has been in SoCal it's entire life until Mary purchased her in November last year. She is in WA. The boat has never had bottom paint but for her use she had a barrier coat and bottom paint applied which included removing the centerboard and painting that as well. I purchased the boat in 2008. did 3 weeks in the San Juans in 2009, several trips to Catalina and tons of sailing from San Diego to Ventura and have never experienced any leakes. She has been on the hard for around 7 years and last year was trailered to Pacific for some trailer upgrades then down to my house in Temecula where she has been for a year. Because of my many years of use I am sure any manufacturing issues would have come up during my ownership so I am thinking something was damaged either at Pacific or at Mary's yard. I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened. So from what you are saying she needs to pull the boat, put water inside the cabin and hopefully see where it exits on the outside correct? This would have been a lot easier to find without the new bottom paint applied. Thanks for your input, Mary, myself and others seeing our postings are at a loss for what really happened. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 8:09 AM jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
Mary- Could you send me a photo of the depression please? I'm curious. I'm at jmbn1@outlook.com.
Thanks.
Jerry
________________________________ From: mariellec--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 7:33 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: mariellec@yahoo.com <mariellec@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge
Well, I posted about this last night but I don't see my post showing up, so I will try again. I found the leak that Jim described (I bought his boat). About one inch aft of the bulkhead that supports the aft end of the v-berth, on the cabin sole, right in the center, is a small round depression in the fiberglass about the size of a quarter. From looking at the boat drawings, it looks like it is right above the pivot pin. There is a crack about 1" long across that small round area and I can watch water weeping slowly out of that crack. If I could figure out a way to post a photo, I would do that but there does not seem to be a photo option here - I can email one to anyone who asks. I have posted on the facebook page as well. The cabin sole was covered by a small carpet when I bought the boat and put it in the yard for the bottom paint job, so I don't know if the crack was there before the bottom job. Can I fix this in the water with something like marine tex? If I haul it on the trailer, can I fix it from above with real epoxy? Or do I need to get under the boat and fix it from the inside of the centerboard trunk? And, what could hav caused this? I am not sure of the purpose or cause of that little round depression in the glass.
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 3:05 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Jerry. Bob says there’s no wood down there. He also pointed out that the dent looks like the face of a hammer, which I think is right on, but I have no idea who would’ve banged on it. What I did as a troubleshooting measure is to Put a few layers of duct tape over the crack Just to see if that solved the apparent problem. Tomorrow I will find out if the boat is now dry and also if shutting out that egress forces water into some other place. I suppose if somebody did bang on it with a hammer that could’ve cracked the liner but it must have also cracked the upper edge of the center board envelope to allow water in. That boat was so pristine and so well cared for and so beautiful that it’s really hard for me to imagine what could’ve happened to it. And I watched it get hauled both times and nobody dropped it. Well, it seems like it has everybody baffled…
Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 2:20 PM, jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
I definately agree with Hen ry- "I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry". And, as I stated before, find and fix the place where the water is getting in first.
If it was one of my boats, there would not be any wood down there. Can't say about Eeg's work.
________________________________ From: Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 11:58 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge
FWIW my boat also had a small crack in the cabin floor pan right at the junction of the V-berth bulkhead from which water would seep. Turned out this was rain water/bilge water that had accumulated in the small gap between the cabin floor (liner) and the actual hull. My fix was to put a 3" inspection port in the floor centered forward right at the V-berth bulkhead. This allowed me to sponge out the remaining water and let it thoroughly dry.
I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry
Henry Monita
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022, 1:45 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
The guy who actually did the work on the bottom paint stopped by the marina today and he told us that after they replaced the pin, They covered it with three layers of glass cloth and resin so it’s hard to imagine water coming in that way. What it would be really helpful to have is a drawing that shows a cross-section of the entire keel/trunk/bilge from a fore and aft direction, As well as athwartship. I’m particularly interested in knowing where there might be wood. Given the way the pin was replaced, it’s really hard to Fathom where the water might be getting in and how it is getting past the ballast and the resin. I did Jerry’s tap test and everything sounds like it should. My plan at this point is to plug the crack with boat life right now Just to confirm that that is the problem. If it stops the water accumulation, then I will know what the problem is. It can be removed when I haul to fix. My fiberglass guy will be back in 10 days and I will have him take a look at it and come up with a plan at that point. If I can continue to use the boat until he is ready to fix it, that would be a bonus.
So Jerry, any construction-drawings that you might have that would help my fiberglass guy and myself trace the water path, that would be great. And hopefully we can also get them from Barb since he built this actual boat. And thanks Jim for all the help Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:13 AM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: Hey Jerry,
I am the prior owner. I met you and you saw the boat in Havasu one year, it has a green hull if you remember. The boat has been in SoCal it's entire life until Mary purchased her in November last year. She is in WA. The boat has never had bottom paint but for her use she had a barrier coat and bottom paint applied which included removing the centerboard and painting that as well. I purchased the boat in 2008. did 3 weeks in the San Juans in 2009, several trips to Catalina and tons of sailing from San Diego to Ventura and have never experienced any leakes. She has been on the hard for around 7 years and last year was trailered to Pacific for some trailer upgrades then down to my house in Temecula where she has been for a year. Because of my many years of use I am sure any manufacturing issues would have come up during my ownership so I am thinking something was damaged either at Pacific or at Mary's yard. I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened. So from what you are saying she needs to pull the boat, put water inside the cabin and hopefully see where it exits on the outside correct? This would have been a lot easier to find without the new bottom paint applied. Thanks for your input, Mary, myself and others seeing our postings are at a loss for what really happened. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 8:09 AM jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
Mary- Could you send me a photo of the depression please? I'm curious. I'm at jmbn1@outlook.com.
Thanks.
Jerry
________________________________ From: mariellec--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 7:33 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: mariellec@yahoo.com <mariellec@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge
Well, I posted about this last night but I don't see my post showing up, so I will try again. I found the leak that Jim described (I bought his boat). About one inch aft of the bulkhead that supports the aft end of the v-berth, on the cabin sole, right in the center, is a small round depression in the fiberglass about the size of a quarter. From looking at the boat drawings, it looks like it is right above the pivot pin. There is a crack about 1" long across that small round area and I can watch water weeping slowly out of that crack. If I could figure out a way to post a photo, I would do that but there does not seem to be a photo option here - I can email one to anyone who asks. I have posted on the facebook page as well. The cabin sole was covered by a small carpet when I bought the boat and put it in the yard for the bottom paint job, so I don't know if the crack was there before the bottom job. Can I fix this in the water with something like marine tex? If I haul it on the trailer, can I fix it from above with real epoxy? Or do I need to get under the boat and fix it from the inside of the centerboard trunk? And, what could hav caused this? I am not sure of the purpose or cause of that little round depression in the glass.
So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 3:05 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Jerry. Bob says there’s no wood down there. He also pointed out that the dent looks like the face of a hammer, which I think is right on, but I have no idea who would’ve banged on it. What I did as a troubleshooting measure is to Put a few layers of duct tape over the crack Just to see if that solved the apparent problem. Tomorrow I will find out if the boat is now dry and also if shutting out that egress forces water into some other place. I suppose if somebody did bang on it with a hammer that could’ve cracked the liner but it must have also cracked the upper edge of the center board envelope to allow water in. That boat was so pristine and so well cared for and so beautiful that it’s really hard for me to imagine what could’ve happened to it. And I watched it get hauled both times and nobody dropped it. Well, it seems like it has everybody baffled…
Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 2:20 PM, jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
I definately agree with Hen ry- "I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry". And, as I stated before, find and fix the place where the water is getting in first.
If it was one of my boats, there would not be any wood down there. Can't say about Eeg's work.
________________________________ From: Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 11:58 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge
FWIW my boat also had a small crack in the cabin floor pan right at the junction of the V-berth bulkhead from which water would seep. Turned out this was rain water/bilge water that had accumulated in the small gap between the cabin floor (liner) and the actual hull. My fix was to put a 3" inspection port in the floor centered forward right at the V-berth bulkhead. This allowed me to sponge out the remaining water and let it thoroughly dry.
I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry
Henry Monita
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022, 1:45 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
The guy who actually did the work on the bottom paint stopped by the marina today and he told us that after they replaced the pin, They covered it with three layers of glass cloth and resin so it’s hard to imagine water coming in that way. What it would be really helpful to have is a drawing that shows a cross-section of the entire keel/trunk/bilge from a fore and aft direction, As well as athwartship. I’m particularly interested in knowing where there might be wood. Given the way the pin was replaced, it’s really hard to Fathom where the water might be getting in and how it is getting past the ballast and the resin. I did Jerry’s tap test and everything sounds like it should. My plan at this point is to plug the crack with boat life right now Just to confirm that that is the problem. If it stops the water accumulation, then I will know what the problem is. It can be removed when I haul to fix. My fiberglass guy will be back in 10 days and I will have him take a look at it and come up with a plan at that point. If I can continue to use the boat until he is ready to fix it, that would be a bonus.
So Jerry, any construction-drawings that you might have that would help my fiberglass guy and myself trace the water path, that would be great. And hopefully we can also get them from Barb since he built this actual boat. And thanks Jim for all the help Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:13 AM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: Hey Jerry,
I am the prior owner. I met you and you saw the boat in Havasu one year, it has a green hull if you remember. The boat has been in SoCal it's entire life until Mary purchased her in November last year. She is in WA. The boat has never had bottom paint but for her use she had a barrier coat and bottom paint applied which included removing the centerboard and painting that as well. I purchased the boat in 2008. did 3 weeks in the San Juans in 2009, several trips to Catalina and tons of sailing from San Diego to Ventura and have never experienced any leakes. She has been on the hard for around 7 years and last year was trailered to Pacific for some trailer upgrades then down to my house in Temecula where she has been for a year. Because of my many years of use I am sure any manufacturing issues would have come up during my ownership so I am thinking something was damaged either at Pacific or at Mary's yard. I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened. So from what you are saying she needs to pull the boat, put water inside the cabin and hopefully see where it exits on the outside correct? This would have been a lot easier to find without the new bottom paint applied. Thanks for your input, Mary, myself and others seeing our postings are at a loss for what really happened. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 8:09 AM jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
Mary- Could you send me a photo of the depression please? I'm curious. I'm at jmbn1@outlook.com.
Thanks.
Jerry
________________________________ From: mariellec--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 7:33 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: mariellec@yahoo.com <mariellec@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge
Well, I posted about this last night but I don't see my post showing up, so I will try again. I found the leak that Jim described (I bought his boat). About one inch aft of the bulkhead that supports the aft end of the v-berth, on the cabin sole, right in the center, is a small round depression in the fiberglass about the size of a quarter. From looking at the boat drawings, it looks like it is right above the pivot pin. There is a crack about 1" long across that small round area and I can watch water weeping slowly out of that crack. If I could figure out a way to post a photo, I would do that but there does not seem to be a photo option here - I can email one to anyone who asks. I have posted on the facebook page as well. The cabin sole was covered by a small carpet when I bought the boat and put it in the yard for the bottom paint job, so I don't know if the crack was there before the bottom job. Can I fix this in the water with something like marine tex? If I haul it on the trailer, can I fix it from above with real epoxy? Or do I need to get under the boat and fix it from the inside of the centerboard trunk? And, what could hav caused this? I am not sure of the purpose or cause of that little round depression in the glass.
Sounds like you are taking the best plan of action. I feel bad I sold you probably the most prized thing I have ever owned only to have it almost sink in your first splash in the water. I wish I had a chance to put her in the water and sail her a couple of times before selling her as I would be in a better position to say absolutely nothing was wrong with the boat when I sold it. Sorry you are having an issue with the bilge pump, that was one of the last projects I did on the boat. Always fun to crawl back under that berth to tighten bolts and run hoses etc. Attached are a couple of pictures of the floor when I was cleaning her up in 2008. Keep me posted on what you find going forward. Jim On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 6:19 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved.
I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem.
Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore.
I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running.
Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 3:05 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Jerry. Bob says there’s no wood down there. He also pointed out that the dent looks like the face of a hammer, which I think is right on, but I have no idea who would’ve banged on it. What I did as a troubleshooting measure is to Put a few layers of duct tape over the crack Just to see if that solved the apparent problem. Tomorrow I will find out if the boat is now dry and also if shutting out that egress forces water into some other place. I suppose if somebody did bang on it with a hammer that could’ve cracked the liner but it must have also cracked the upper edge of the center board envelope to allow water in. That boat was so pristine and so well cared for and so beautiful that it’s really hard for me to imagine what could’ve happened to it. And I watched it get hauled both times and nobody dropped it. Well, it seems like it has everybody baffled…
Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 2:20 PM, jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
I definately agree with Hen ry- "I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry". And, as I stated before, find and fix the place where the water is getting in first.
If it was one of my boats, there would not be any wood down there. Can't say about Eeg's work.
________________________________ From: Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 11:58 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge
FWIW my boat also had a small crack in the cabin floor pan right at the junction of the V-berth bulkhead from which water would seep. Turned out this was rain water/bilge water that had accumulated in the small gap between the cabin floor (liner) and the actual hull. My fix was to put a 3" inspection port in the floor centered forward right at the V-berth bulkhead. This allowed me to sponge out the remaining water and let it thoroughly dry.
I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry
Henry Monita
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022, 1:45 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
The guy who actually did the work on the bottom paint stopped by the marina today and he told us that after they replaced the pin, They covered it with three layers of glass cloth and resin so it’s hard to imagine water coming in that way. What it would be really helpful to have is a drawing that shows a cross-section of the entire keel/trunk/bilge from a fore and aft direction, As well as athwartship. I’m particularly interested in knowing where there might be wood. Given the way the pin was replaced, it’s really hard to Fathom where the water might be getting in and how it is getting past the ballast and the resin. I did Jerry’s tap test and everything sounds like it should. My plan at this point is to plug the crack with boat life right now Just to confirm that that is the problem. If it stops the water accumulation, then I will know what the problem is. It can be removed when I haul to fix. My fiberglass guy will be back in 10 days and I will have him take a look at it and come up with a plan at that point. If I can continue to use the boat until he is ready to fix it, that would be a bonus.
So Jerry, any construction-drawings that you might have that would help my fiberglass guy and myself trace the water path, that would be great. And hopefully we can also get them from Barb since he built this actual boat. And thanks Jim for all the help Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:13 AM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: Hey Jerry,
I am the prior owner. I met you and you saw the boat in Havasu one year, it has a green hull if you remember. The boat has been in SoCal it's entire life until Mary purchased her in November last year. She is in WA. The boat has never had bottom paint but for her use she had a barrier coat and bottom paint applied which included removing the centerboard and painting that as well. I purchased the boat in 2008. did 3 weeks in the San Juans in 2009, several trips to Catalina and tons of sailing from San Diego to Ventura and have never experienced any leakes. She has been on the hard for around 7 years and last year was trailered to Pacific for some trailer upgrades then down to my house in Temecula where she has been for a year. Because of my many years of use I am sure any manufacturing issues would have come up during my ownership so I am thinking something was damaged either at Pacific or at Mary's yard. I don't think we will ever know exactly what happened. So from what you are saying she needs to pull the boat, put water inside the cabin and hopefully see where it exits on the outside correct? This would have been a lot easier to find without the new bottom paint applied. Thanks for your input, Mary, myself and others seeing our postings are at a loss for what really happened. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 8:09 AM jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
> Mary- Could you send me a photo of the depression please? I'm curious. > I'm at jmbn1@outlook.com. > > Thanks. > > Jerry > > ________________________________ > From: mariellec--- via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> > Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 7:33 AM > To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < > montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> > Cc: mariellec@yahoo.com <mariellec@yahoo.com> > Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge > > Well, I posted about this last night but I don't see my post showing up, > so I will try again. I found the leak that Jim described (I bought his > boat). About one inch aft of the bulkhead that supports the aft end of the > v-berth, on the cabin sole, right in the center, is a small round > depression in the fiberglass about the size of a quarter. From looking at > the boat drawings, it looks like it is right above the pivot pin. There is > a crack about 1" long across that small round area and I can watch water > weeping slowly out of that crack. If I could figure out a way to post a > photo, I would do that but there does not seem to be a photo option here - > I can email one to anyone who asks. I have posted on the facebook page as > well. The cabin sole was covered by a small carpet when I bought the boat > and put it in the yard for the bottom paint job, so I don't know if the > crack was there before the bottom job. Can I fix this in the water with > something like marine tex? If I haul it on the trailer, can I fix it from > above with real epoxy? Or do I need to get under the boat and fix it from > the inside of the centerboard trunk? And, what could hav caused this? I > am not sure of the purpose or cause of that little round depression in the > glass.
I/m sure it’s not your fault, Jim. And it was not in danger of sinking (although it felt like it). I just didn’t know for a few days whether it was a major issue or not, but I am feeling a lot better about it. I will know more next week when I talk to the contractor. I am sure glad you DID put a bilge pump in the boat, even if it did leak a little bit - I would have been REALLY behind the eight-ball plumbing something in under pressure! I have decided, though, that Montgomerys should not be advertised as having quarter berths: they are more like ‘eighth berths.' And I did assume, since the boat hadn’t been used much, that there might be a few issues needing attention. Remember, even as much as you cared about it, it is still a B.O.A.T (Break Out Another Thousand)
On Apr 2, 2022, at 6:59 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Sounds like you are taking the best plan of action. I feel bad I sold you probably the most prized thing I have ever owned only to have it almost sink in your first splash in the water. I wish I had a chance to put her in the water and sail her a couple of times before selling her as I would be in a better position to say absolutely nothing was wrong with the boat when I sold it. Sorry you are having an issue with the bilge pump, that was one of the last projects I did on the boat. Always fun to crawl back under that berth to tighten bolts and run hoses etc. Attached are a couple of pictures of the floor when I was cleaning her up in 2008. Keep me posted on what you find going forward. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 6:19 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved.
I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem.
Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore.
I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running.
Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 3:05 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Jerry. Bob says there’s no wood down there. He also pointed out that the dent looks like the face of a hammer, which I think is right on, but I have no idea who would’ve banged on it. What I did as a troubleshooting measure is to Put a few layers of duct tape over the crack Just to see if that solved the apparent problem. Tomorrow I will find out if the boat is now dry and also if shutting out that egress forces water into some other place. I suppose if somebody did bang on it with a hammer that could’ve cracked the liner but it must have also cracked the upper edge of the center board envelope to allow water in. That boat was so pristine and so well cared for and so beautiful that it’s really hard for me to imagine what could’ve happened to it. And I watched it get hauled both times and nobody dropped it. Well, it seems like it has everybody baffled…
Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 2:20 PM, jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
I definately agree with Hen ry- "I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry". And, as I stated before, find and fix the place where the water is getting in first.
If it was one of my boats, there would not be any wood down there. Can't say about Eeg's work.
________________________________ From: Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 11:58 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge
FWIW my boat also had a small crack in the cabin floor pan right at the junction of the V-berth bulkhead from which water would seep. Turned out this was rain water/bilge water that had accumulated in the small gap between the cabin floor (liner) and the actual hull. My fix was to put a 3" inspection port in the floor centered forward right at the V-berth bulkhead. This allowed me to sponge out the remaining water and let it thoroughly dry.
I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry
Henry Monita
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022, 1:45 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
The guy who actually did the work on the bottom paint stopped by the marina today and he told us that after they replaced the pin, They covered it with three layers of glass cloth and resin so it’s hard to imagine water coming in that way. What it would be really helpful to have is a drawing that shows a cross-section of the entire keel/trunk/bilge from a fore and aft direction, As well as athwartship. I’m particularly interested in knowing where there might be wood. Given the way the pin was replaced, it’s really hard to Fathom where the water might be getting in and how it is getting past the ballast and the resin. I did Jerry’s tap test and everything sounds like it should. My plan at this point is to plug the crack with boat life right now Just to confirm that that is the problem. If it stops the water accumulation, then I will know what the problem is. It can be removed when I haul to fix. My fiberglass guy will be back in 10 days and I will have him take a look at it and come up with a plan at that point. If I can continue to use the boat until he is ready to fix it, that would be a bonus.
So Jerry, any construction-drawings that you might have that would help my fiberglass guy and myself trace the water path, that would be great. And hopefully we can also get them from Barb since he built this actual boat. And thanks Jim for all the help Mary
> On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:13 AM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: > Hey Jerry, > > I am the prior owner. I met you and you saw the boat in Havasu one year, it > has a green hull if you remember. The boat has been in SoCal it's entire > life until Mary purchased her in November last year. She is in WA. The boat > has never had bottom paint but for her use she had a barrier coat and > bottom paint applied which included removing the centerboard and painting > that as well. I purchased the boat in 2008. did 3 weeks in the San Juans in > 2009, several trips to Catalina and tons of sailing from San Diego to > Ventura and have never experienced any leakes. She has been on the hard for > around 7 years and last year was trailered to Pacific for some trailer > upgrades then down to my house in Temecula where she has been for a year. > Because of my many years of use I am sure any manufacturing issues would > have come up during my ownership so I am thinking something was damaged > either at Pacific or at Mary's yard. I don't think we will ever know > exactly what happened. > So from what you are saying she needs to pull the boat, put water inside > the cabin and hopefully see where it exits on the outside correct? This > would have been a lot easier to find without the new bottom paint applied. > Thanks for your input, Mary, myself and others seeing our postings are at a > loss for what really happened. > Jim > > On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 8:09 AM jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote: > >> Mary- Could you send me a photo of the depression please? I'm curious. >> I'm at jmbn1@outlook.com. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Jerry >> >> ________________________________ >> From: mariellec--- via montgomery_boats < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 7:33 AM >> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >> Cc: mariellec@yahoo.com <mariellec@yahoo.com> >> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge >> >> Well, I posted about this last night but I don't see my post showing up, >> so I will try again. I found the leak that Jim described (I bought his >> boat). About one inch aft of the bulkhead that supports the aft end of the >> v-berth, on the cabin sole, right in the center, is a small round >> depression in the fiberglass about the size of a quarter. From looking at >> the boat drawings, it looks like it is right above the pivot pin. There is >> a crack about 1" long across that small round area and I can watch water >> weeping slowly out of that crack. If I could figure out a way to post a >> photo, I would do that but there does not seem to be a photo option here - >> I can email one to anyone who asks. I have posted on the facebook page as >> well. The cabin sole was covered by a small carpet when I bought the boat >> and put it in the yard for the bottom paint job, so I don't know if the >> crack was there before the bottom job. Can I fix this in the water with >> something like marine tex? If I haul it on the trailer, can I fix it from >> above with real epoxy? Or do I need to get under the boat and fix it from >> the inside of the centerboard trunk? And, what could hav caused this? I >> am not sure of the purpose or cause of that little round depression in the >> glass.
<IMG_1104.JPG><IMG_1105.JPG>
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat). I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out. Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack. Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk. In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside. From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel. I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up. Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top? When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant. So my guess would be one of: 1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in. 2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in. It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior. How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in. Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick. Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose... cheers, John On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote:
So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved.
I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem.
Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore.
I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running.
Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thank you John. I think we are developing a theory for what happened. Believe me, duct tape is a temporary solution intended only for me to Ascertain if that crack is the sole source of water ingress. If I go down to the boat tomorrow and I find that the bilge is completely dry then I will know that there is only one crack on the inside and I have found it. It will allow me to keep the boat in the water until my contractor comes back and can take a look at the situation because I’d like him to see it when it’s in the water. Then we make a plan. Also I think there is a difference between my boat and Henry Rodriguez’s. On my boat there is no Additional layer of “floor” on top of the liner. The crack is in the liner and when I tap on the liner first a few inches to the left and the right of the crack it’s clear that there is no void beneath that liner… It is solidly attached to the sub surface. So I am strongly disinclined to cut a 3 inch hole in that liner.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
More re interior construction in case it helps... On my M17 the liner is very solid underfoot (on the 'floor'). And, the hull is lapstrake, so there are going to be small voids running fore/aft under the liner, but the liner is I assume thick enough that spanning that small distance, it doesn't flex measurably. And where the liner is directly over the keel, I don't know if there are still voids or it's solid, can't feel a difference. Not sure if the hull mold has lapstrakes all the way to centerline which are then cut away to install keel, or if the mold is done some other way. AFAIK there is no larger void or separation between my liner and hull. The liner sits on the interior ridges of the lapstrake. I assume you've checked just forward of the v-berth bulkhead, where you see the inside of the hull itself (lapstrakes and all), to see that there's no water there? I don't recall if that has already been mentioned in this thread. My floor liner is sealed on both fore and aft ends, meaning the hull under the berth is sealed to the front of bulkhead, and the liner is sealed to the hull at its aft end. So water could not get between my hull and liner - under the 'floor', that is - from either end. But if it were coming in somewhere between those, it could fill and be trapped in the voids between liner and inside of hull. Then if there was a crack in the liner ('floor') as you have, it could come into the interior thru that. cheers, John On 4/2/22 23:23, Mary Campbell wrote:
Thank you John. I think we are developing a theory for what happened. Believe me, duct tape is a temporary solution intended only for me to Ascertain if that crack is the sole source of water ingress. If I go down to the boat tomorrow and I find that the bilge is completely dry then I will know that there is only one crack on the inside and I have found it. It will allow me to keep the boat in the water until my contractor comes back and can take a look at the situation because I’d like him to see it when it’s in the water. Then we make a plan.
Also I think there is a difference between my boat and Henry Rodriguez’s. On my boat there is no Additional layer of “floor” on top of the liner. The crack is in the liner and when I tap on the liner first a few inches to the left and the right of the crack it’s clear that there is no void beneath that liner… It is solidly attached to the sub surface. So I am strongly disinclined to cut a 3 inch hole in that liner.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Just to reassure you, yes, I have checked EVERYWHERE for water! Over and over!!! :-D. There is no water forward of the v-berth bulkhead. And I really feel confident now that a hammer blow cracked the liner and probably put a smaller crack in the top of the CB trunk. So the fix will not be hard once I haul. And when I do haul, I will take a LOT of photos of the truck and find the stop bolt. From your description and my observations of the boat construction (beautifully finished with fillets at joints, etc.) I am confident that any water coming in from that crack is only collecting in the tiny voids that you describe. There is no wood in there to rot. So as long as I don’t drill any MORE holes in that liner…the boat should stay dry. Thanks again so much.
On Apr 3, 2022, at 12:03 AM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
More re interior construction in case it helps...
On my M17 the liner is very solid underfoot (on the 'floor'). And, the hull is lapstrake, so there are going to be small voids running fore/aft under the liner, but the liner is I assume thick enough that spanning that small distance, it doesn't flex measurably. And where the liner is directly over the keel, I don't know if there are still voids or it's solid, can't feel a difference. Not sure if the hull mold has lapstrakes all the way to centerline which are then cut away to install keel, or if the mold is done some other way. AFAIK there is no larger void or separation between my liner and hull. The liner sits on the interior ridges of the lapstrake.
I assume you've checked just forward of the v-berth bulkhead, where you see the inside of the hull itself (lapstrakes and all), to see that there's no water there? I don't recall if that has already been mentioned in this thread.
My floor liner is sealed on both fore and aft ends, meaning the hull under the berth is sealed to the front of bulkhead, and the liner is sealed to the hull at its aft end. So water could not get between my hull and liner - under the 'floor', that is - from either end. But if it were coming in somewhere between those, it could fill and be trapped in the voids between liner and inside of hull. Then if there was a crack in the liner ('floor') as you have, it could come into the interior thru that.
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 23:23, Mary Campbell wrote:
Thank you John. I think we are developing a theory for what happened. Believe me, duct tape is a temporary solution intended only for me to Ascertain if that crack is the sole source of water ingress. If I go down to the boat tomorrow and I find that the bilge is completely dry then I will know that there is only one crack on the inside and I have found it. It will allow me to keep the boat in the water until my contractor comes back and can take a look at the situation because I’d like him to see it when it’s in the water. Then we make a plan. Also I think there is a difference between my boat and Henry Rodriguez’s. On my boat there is no Additional layer of “floor” on top of the liner. The crack is in the liner and when I tap on the liner first a few inches to the left and the right of the crack it’s clear that there is no void beneath that liner… It is solidly attached to the sub surface. So I am strongly disinclined to cut a 3 inch hole in that liner.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Mary. You won’t find a stop bolt. We use a knot in the pendant to prevent the board from going too far down. See a knot in the rope…? If not maybe those clowns un tied the knot. That’s knot good pun intended. Bob Sent from my iPad
On Apr 3, 2022, at 9:19 AM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to reassure you, yes, I have checked EVERYWHERE for water! Over and over!!! :-D. There is no water forward of the v-berth bulkhead. And I really feel confident now that a hammer blow cracked the liner and probably put a smaller crack in the top of the CB trunk. So the fix will not be hard once I haul. And when I do haul, I will take a LOT of photos of the truck and find the stop bolt. From your description and my observations of the boat construction (beautifully finished with fillets at joints, etc.) I am confident that any water coming in from that crack is only collecting in the tiny voids that you describe. There is no wood in there to rot. So as long as I don’t drill any MORE holes in that liner…the boat should stay dry. Thanks again so much.
On Apr 3, 2022, at 12:03 AM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
More re interior construction in case it helps...
On my M17 the liner is very solid underfoot (on the 'floor'). And, the hull is lapstrake, so there are going to be small voids running fore/aft under the liner, but the liner is I assume thick enough that spanning that small distance, it doesn't flex measurably. And where the liner is directly over the keel, I don't know if there are still voids or it's solid, can't feel a difference. Not sure if the hull mold has lapstrakes all the way to centerline which are then cut away to install keel, or if the mold is done some other way. AFAIK there is no larger void or separation between my liner and hull. The liner sits on the interior ridges of the lapstrake.
I assume you've checked just forward of the v-berth bulkhead, where you see the inside of the hull itself (lapstrakes and all), to see that there's no water there? I don't recall if that has already been mentioned in this thread.
My floor liner is sealed on both fore and aft ends, meaning the hull under the berth is sealed to the front of bulkhead, and the liner is sealed to the hull at its aft end. So water could not get between my hull and liner - under the 'floor', that is - from either end. But if it were coming in somewhere between those, it could fill and be trapped in the voids between liner and inside of hull. Then if there was a crack in the liner ('floor') as you have, it could come into the interior thru that.
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 23:23, Mary Campbell wrote: Thank you John. I think we are developing a theory for what happened. Believe me, duct tape is a temporary solution intended only for me to Ascertain if that crack is the sole source of water ingress. If I go down to the boat tomorrow and I find that the bilge is completely dry then I will know that there is only one crack on the inside and I have found it. It will allow me to keep the boat in the water until my contractor comes back and can take a look at the situation because I’d like him to see it when it’s in the water. Then we make a plan. Also I think there is a difference between my boat and Henry Rodriguez’s. On my boat there is no Additional layer of “floor” on top of the liner. The crack is in the liner and when I tap on the liner first a few inches to the left and the right of the crack it’s clear that there is no void beneath that liner… It is solidly attached to the sub surface. So I am strongly disinclined to cut a 3 inch hole in that liner.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
> On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I have both ends of the line after they cut it and there were just knots at the ends. But knot to worry - I put the board down until it stopped and marked the pendant and put a knot about an inch above that so that the line can't drop any further into the tube. Should work fine.
On Apr 3, 2022, at 9:29 AM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mary. You won’t find a stop bolt. We use a knot in the pendant to prevent the board from going too far down. See a knot in the rope…? If not maybe those clowns un tied the knot. That’s knot good pun intended. Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 3, 2022, at 9:19 AM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to reassure you, yes, I have checked EVERYWHERE for water! Over and over!!! :-D. There is no water forward of the v-berth bulkhead. And I really feel confident now that a hammer blow cracked the liner and probably put a smaller crack in the top of the CB trunk. So the fix will not be hard once I haul. And when I do haul, I will take a LOT of photos of the truck and find the stop bolt. From your description and my observations of the boat construction (beautifully finished with fillets at joints, etc.) I am confident that any water coming in from that crack is only collecting in the tiny voids that you describe. There is no wood in there to rot. So as long as I don’t drill any MORE holes in that liner…the boat should stay dry. Thanks again so much.
On Apr 3, 2022, at 12:03 AM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
More re interior construction in case it helps...
On my M17 the liner is very solid underfoot (on the 'floor'). And, the hull is lapstrake, so there are going to be small voids running fore/aft under the liner, but the liner is I assume thick enough that spanning that small distance, it doesn't flex measurably. And where the liner is directly over the keel, I don't know if there are still voids or it's solid, can't feel a difference. Not sure if the hull mold has lapstrakes all the way to centerline which are then cut away to install keel, or if the mold is done some other way. AFAIK there is no larger void or separation between my liner and hull. The liner sits on the interior ridges of the lapstrake.
I assume you've checked just forward of the v-berth bulkhead, where you see the inside of the hull itself (lapstrakes and all), to see that there's no water there? I don't recall if that has already been mentioned in this thread.
My floor liner is sealed on both fore and aft ends, meaning the hull under the berth is sealed to the front of bulkhead, and the liner is sealed to the hull at its aft end. So water could not get between my hull and liner - under the 'floor', that is - from either end. But if it were coming in somewhere between those, it could fill and be trapped in the voids between liner and inside of hull. Then if there was a crack in the liner ('floor') as you have, it could come into the interior thru that.
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 23:23, Mary Campbell wrote: Thank you John. I think we are developing a theory for what happened. Believe me, duct tape is a temporary solution intended only for me to Ascertain if that crack is the sole source of water ingress. If I go down to the boat tomorrow and I find that the bilge is completely dry then I will know that there is only one crack on the inside and I have found it. It will allow me to keep the boat in the water until my contractor comes back and can take a look at the situation because I’d like him to see it when it’s in the water. Then we make a plan. Also I think there is a difference between my boat and Henry Rodriguez’s. On my boat there is no Additional layer of “floor” on top of the liner. The crack is in the liner and when I tap on the liner first a few inches to the left and the right of the crack it’s clear that there is no void beneath that liner… It is solidly attached to the sub surface. So I am strongly disinclined to cut a 3 inch hole in that liner.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops. >> On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: > > Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and > there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and > anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those > pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from > what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears > now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and > once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time > except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that > indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put > the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in > transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if > they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it > loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really > strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until > I just looked at my pictures. > Jim >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Also, as Bob said, I forgot to mention, if your boat is newer enough, it has the lightweight CB instead of the heavy metal one like mine, and no stop bolt, just the knot in the pennant. On 4/3/22 09:40, Mary Campbell wrote:
I have both ends of the line after they cut it and there were just knots at the ends. But knot to worry - I put the board down until it stopped and marked the pendant and put a knot about an inch above that so that the line can't drop any further into the tube. Should work fine.
On Apr 3, 2022, at 9:29 AM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mary. You won’t find a stop bolt. We use a knot in the pendant to prevent the board from going too far down. See a knot in the rope…? If not maybe those clowns un tied the knot. That’s knot good pun intended. Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 3, 2022, at 9:19 AM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to reassure you, yes, I have checked EVERYWHERE for water! Over and over!!! :-D. There is no water forward of the v-berth bulkhead. And I really feel confident now that a hammer blow cracked the liner and probably put a smaller crack in the top of the CB trunk. So the fix will not be hard once I haul. And when I do haul, I will take a LOT of photos of the truck and find the stop bolt. From your description and my observations of the boat construction (beautifully finished with fillets at joints, etc.) I am confident that any water coming in from that crack is only collecting in the tiny voids that you describe. There is no wood in there to rot. So as long as I don’t drill any MORE holes in that liner…the boat should stay dry. Thanks again so much.
On Apr 3, 2022, at 12:03 AM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
More re interior construction in case it helps...
On my M17 the liner is very solid underfoot (on the 'floor'). And, the hull is lapstrake, so there are going to be small voids running fore/aft under the liner, but the liner is I assume thick enough that spanning that small distance, it doesn't flex measurably. And where the liner is directly over the keel, I don't know if there are still voids or it's solid, can't feel a difference. Not sure if the hull mold has lapstrakes all the way to centerline which are then cut away to install keel, or if the mold is done some other way. AFAIK there is no larger void or separation between my liner and hull. The liner sits on the interior ridges of the lapstrake.
I assume you've checked just forward of the v-berth bulkhead, where you see the inside of the hull itself (lapstrakes and all), to see that there's no water there? I don't recall if that has already been mentioned in this thread.
My floor liner is sealed on both fore and aft ends, meaning the hull under the berth is sealed to the front of bulkhead, and the liner is sealed to the hull at its aft end. So water could not get between my hull and liner - under the 'floor', that is - from either end. But if it were coming in somewhere between those, it could fill and be trapped in the voids between liner and inside of hull. Then if there was a crack in the liner ('floor') as you have, it could come into the interior thru that.
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 23:23, Mary Campbell wrote: Thank you John. I think we are developing a theory for what happened. Believe me, duct tape is a temporary solution intended only for me to Ascertain if that crack is the sole source of water ingress. If I go down to the boat tomorrow and I find that the bilge is completely dry then I will know that there is only one crack on the inside and I have found it. It will allow me to keep the boat in the water until my contractor comes back and can take a look at the situation because I’d like him to see it when it’s in the water. Then we make a plan. Also I think there is a difference between my boat and Henry Rodriguez’s. On my boat there is no Additional layer of “floor” on top of the liner. The crack is in the liner and when I tap on the liner first a few inches to the left and the right of the crack it’s clear that there is no void beneath that liner… It is solidly attached to the sub surface. So I am strongly disinclined to cut a 3 inch hole in that liner.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
> On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: > So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. > I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. > Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. > I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. > Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops. >>> On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and >> there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and >> anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those >> pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from >> what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears >> now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and >> once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time >> except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that >> indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put >> the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in >> transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if >> they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it >> loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really >> strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until >> I just looked at my pictures. >> Jim >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Mary: Make sure they when the centerboard is down that about 1"+ remains in the trunk. If the board is overextended, meaning only the bit that contains the pivot pin is in the trunk, it will twist and cause damage to the board, trunk, walk out the rotation pin etc. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Sun, Apr 3, 2022, 9:41 AM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote: > I have both ends of the line after they cut it and there were just knots > at the ends. But knot to worry - I put the board down until it stopped and > marked the pendant and put a knot about an inch above that so that the line > can't drop any further into the tube. Should work fine. > > > On Apr 3, 2022, at 9:29 AM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > Mary. You won’t find a stop bolt. We use a knot in the pendant to > prevent the board from going too far down. See a knot in the rope…? > > If not maybe those clowns un tied the knot. That’s knot good pun > intended. > > Bob > > > > beneath that liner… It is solidly attached to the sub surface. So I am > strongly disinclined to cut a 3 inch hole in that liner. > >>>>> On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had > leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat). > >>>>> > >>>>> I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water > first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on > the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the > boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes > out. > >>>>> > >>>>> Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the > inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the > hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack. > >>>>> > >>>>> Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is > actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. > >>>>> The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a > ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line > drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or > possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk. > >>>>> > >>>>> In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there > is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside. > >>>>> > >>>>> From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from > the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. > >>>>> If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, > then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel. > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid > all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft > seam there that might have opened up. > >>>>> > >>>>> Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the > CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top? > >>>>> > >>>>> When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only > discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop > bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the > water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. > >>>>> It never came into the interior of the boat. > >>>>> There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get > into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in > either, besides the hole for the CB pennant. > >>>>> > >>>>> So my guess would be one of: > >>>>> > >>>>> 1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened > up between keel and interior and it's oozing in. > >>>>> > >>>>> 2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior > and it's oozing in. > >>>>> > >>>>> It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel > which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as > 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior. > >>>>> > >>>>> How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on > the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all > possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in. > >>>>> > >>>>> Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except > ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out > water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you > get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape > sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my > Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling > out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an > immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed > on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location > reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose... > >>>>> > >>>>> cheers, > >>>>> John > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: > >>>>>> So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I > was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and > they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made > more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to > encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the > fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back > from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because > if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent > the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am > not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted > the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. > >>>>>> I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it > was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot > more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the > carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. > I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was > filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake > channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the > lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the > salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - > that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and > then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the > clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. > >>>>>> Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. > With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling > like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am > sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I > will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the > problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same > guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the > boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could > reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to > sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in > now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. > >>>>>> I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry > suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the > water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and > not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are > for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of > summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue > about where the water might be running. > >>>>>> Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really > appreciate all of your help rallying the troops. > >>>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth < > jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of > Grace (and > >>>>>>> there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the > cushions and > >>>>>>> anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those > >>>>>>> pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but > from > >>>>>>> what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as > appears > >>>>>>> now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the > floor and > >>>>>>> once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the > time > >>>>>>> except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of > that > >>>>>>> indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I > purposely put > >>>>>>> the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the > v-berth in > >>>>>>> transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am > wondering if > >>>>>>> they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to > break it > >>>>>>> loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is > really > >>>>>>> strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the > floor until > >>>>>>> I just looked at my pictures. > >>>>>>> Jim > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > >>>>> -------------------------------------------- > >>>>> - Eco-Living - > >>>>> Whole Systems Design Services > >>>>> People - Place - Learning - Integration > >>>>> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > >>>>> http://eco-living.net > >>>>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com > >>> > >>> -- > >>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > >>> -------------------------------------------- > >>> - Eco-Living - > >>> Whole Systems Design Services > >>> People - Place - Learning - Integration > >>> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > >>> http://eco-living.net > >>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >
Lowing the board until it stops is a bad thing. The board rests on the face of the centerboard trunk and could be enough leverage to break the board at the hole. Lower the board gently until it stops then pull it up an inch so it can’t touch that face Because the knot prevents it from going down too far. Bob Sent from my iPad
On Apr 3, 2022, at 9:41 AM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
I have both ends of the line after they cut it and there were just knots at the ends. But knot to worry - I put the board down until it stopped and marked the pendant and put a knot about an inch above that so that the line can't drop any further into the tube. Should work fine.
On Apr 3, 2022, at 9:29 AM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mary. You won’t find a stop bolt. We use a knot in the pendant to prevent the board from going too far down. See a knot in the rope…? If not maybe those clowns un tied the knot. That’s knot good pun intended. Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 3, 2022, at 9:19 AM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to reassure you, yes, I have checked EVERYWHERE for water! Over and over!!! :-D. There is no water forward of the v-berth bulkhead. And I really feel confident now that a hammer blow cracked the liner and probably put a smaller crack in the top of the CB trunk. So the fix will not be hard once I haul. And when I do haul, I will take a LOT of photos of the truck and find the stop bolt. From your description and my observations of the boat construction (beautifully finished with fillets at joints, etc.) I am confident that any water coming in from that crack is only collecting in the tiny voids that you describe. There is no wood in there to rot. So as long as I don’t drill any MORE holes in that liner…the boat should stay dry. Thanks again so much.
On Apr 3, 2022, at 12:03 AM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
More re interior construction in case it helps...
On my M17 the liner is very solid underfoot (on the 'floor'). And, the hull is lapstrake, so there are going to be small voids running fore/aft under the liner, but the liner is I assume thick enough that spanning that small distance, it doesn't flex measurably. And where the liner is directly over the keel, I don't know if there are still voids or it's solid, can't feel a difference. Not sure if the hull mold has lapstrakes all the way to centerline which are then cut away to install keel, or if the mold is done some other way. AFAIK there is no larger void or separation between my liner and hull. The liner sits on the interior ridges of the lapstrake.
I assume you've checked just forward of the v-berth bulkhead, where you see the inside of the hull itself (lapstrakes and all), to see that there's no water there? I don't recall if that has already been mentioned in this thread.
My floor liner is sealed on both fore and aft ends, meaning the hull under the berth is sealed to the front of bulkhead, and the liner is sealed to the hull at its aft end. So water could not get between my hull and liner - under the 'floor', that is - from either end. But if it were coming in somewhere between those, it could fill and be trapped in the voids between liner and inside of hull. Then if there was a crack in the liner ('floor') as you have, it could come into the interior thru that.
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 23:23, Mary Campbell wrote: Thank you John. I think we are developing a theory for what happened. Believe me, duct tape is a temporary solution intended only for me to Ascertain if that crack is the sole source of water ingress. If I go down to the boat tomorrow and I find that the bilge is completely dry then I will know that there is only one crack on the inside and I have found it. It will allow me to keep the boat in the water until my contractor comes back and can take a look at the situation because I’d like him to see it when it’s in the water. Then we make a plan. Also I think there is a difference between my boat and Henry Rodriguez’s. On my boat there is no Additional layer of “floor” on top of the liner. The crack is in the liner and when I tap on the liner first a few inches to the left and the right of the crack it’s clear that there is no void beneath that liner… It is solidly attached to the sub surface. So I am strongly disinclined to cut a 3 inch hole in that liner.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
> On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: > So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. > I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. > Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. > I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. > Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops. >>> On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and >> there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and >> anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those >> pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from >> what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears >> now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and >> once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time >> except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that >> indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put >> the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in >> transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if >> they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it >> loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really >> strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until >> I just looked at my pictures. >> Jim >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
That’s exactly what I did, Bob. Bad news, though. The duct tape worked on the leak, but now the water is going into the vberth and the bilge, following any little void it can find. I will remove the tape in a few minutes, go get my trailer, and tomorrow morning a friend will help me haul the boat and bring it to the yard. My contractor will see it when he returns from vacation in a week and it should be well dried out by then. Someone has some ’splainin’ to do. Thanks to your help, I know what the fix is and hope it can be done quickly so I don’t lose too much more sailing time.
On Apr 3, 2022, at 10:53 AM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Lowing the board until it stops is a bad thing. The board rests on the face of the centerboard trunk and could be enough leverage to break the board at the hole.
Lower the board gently until it stops then pull it up an inch so it can’t touch that face Because the knot prevents it from going down too far. Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 3, 2022, at 9:41 AM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
I have both ends of the line after they cut it and there were just knots at the ends. But knot to worry - I put the board down until it stopped and marked the pendant and put a knot about an inch above that so that the line can't drop any further into the tube. Should work fine.
On Apr 3, 2022, at 9:29 AM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mary. You won’t find a stop bolt. We use a knot in the pendant to prevent the board from going too far down. See a knot in the rope…? If not maybe those clowns un tied the knot. That’s knot good pun intended. Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 3, 2022, at 9:19 AM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to reassure you, yes, I have checked EVERYWHERE for water! Over and over!!! :-D. There is no water forward of the v-berth bulkhead. And I really feel confident now that a hammer blow cracked the liner and probably put a smaller crack in the top of the CB trunk. So the fix will not be hard once I haul. And when I do haul, I will take a LOT of photos of the truck and find the stop bolt. From your description and my observations of the boat construction (beautifully finished with fillets at joints, etc.) I am confident that any water coming in from that crack is only collecting in the tiny voids that you describe. There is no wood in there to rot. So as long as I don’t drill any MORE holes in that liner…the boat should stay dry. Thanks again so much.
On Apr 3, 2022, at 12:03 AM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
More re interior construction in case it helps...
On my M17 the liner is very solid underfoot (on the 'floor'). And, the hull is lapstrake, so there are going to be small voids running fore/aft under the liner, but the liner is I assume thick enough that spanning that small distance, it doesn't flex measurably. And where the liner is directly over the keel, I don't know if there are still voids or it's solid, can't feel a difference. Not sure if the hull mold has lapstrakes all the way to centerline which are then cut away to install keel, or if the mold is done some other way. AFAIK there is no larger void or separation between my liner and hull. The liner sits on the interior ridges of the lapstrake.
I assume you've checked just forward of the v-berth bulkhead, where you see the inside of the hull itself (lapstrakes and all), to see that there's no water there? I don't recall if that has already been mentioned in this thread.
My floor liner is sealed on both fore and aft ends, meaning the hull under the berth is sealed to the front of bulkhead, and the liner is sealed to the hull at its aft end. So water could not get between my hull and liner - under the 'floor', that is - from either end. But if it were coming in somewhere between those, it could fill and be trapped in the voids between liner and inside of hull. Then if there was a crack in the liner ('floor') as you have, it could come into the interior thru that.
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 23:23, Mary Campbell wrote: Thank you John. I think we are developing a theory for what happened. Believe me, duct tape is a temporary solution intended only for me to Ascertain if that crack is the sole source of water ingress. If I go down to the boat tomorrow and I find that the bilge is completely dry then I will know that there is only one crack on the inside and I have found it. It will allow me to keep the boat in the water until my contractor comes back and can take a look at the situation because I’d like him to see it when it’s in the water. Then we make a plan. Also I think there is a difference between my boat and Henry Rodriguez’s. On my boat there is no Additional layer of “floor” on top of the liner. The crack is in the liner and when I tap on the liner first a few inches to the left and the right of the crack it’s clear that there is no void beneath that liner… It is solidly attached to the sub surface. So I am strongly disinclined to cut a 3 inch hole in that liner. > On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: > > I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat). > > I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out. > > Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack. > > Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. > The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk. > > In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside. > > From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. > If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel. > > I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up. > > Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top? > > When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. > It never came into the interior of the boat. > There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant. > > So my guess would be one of: > > 1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in. > > 2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in. > > It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior. > > How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in. > > Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick. > > > Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose... > > cheers, > John > > >> On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: >> So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. >> I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. >> Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. >> I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. >> Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops. >>>> On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and >>> there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and >>> anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those >>> pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from >>> what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears >>> now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and >>> once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time >>> except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that >>> indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put >>> the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in >>> transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if >>> they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it >>> loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really >>> strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until >>> I just looked at my pictures. >>> Jim >>> > > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Mary: You have asked about what the interior of the keel looks like. Have you seen the pictures on in the MSOG FB group that TJ shared? Shows details of the interior makeup of the keel. Link - https://www.facebook.com/groups/330782353662726/permalink/7173738309367062/ Definitions - The M17 has a shoal keel. This is the fixed keel on your boat. It is, in your boat's case, ballasted by lead. The M17 had a centerboard. It has a fiberglass shell and is filled with lead (fun Montgomery fact - it is an M15 centerboard). The board weights about 45# - basically enough weight to keep it down. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Sun, Apr 3, 2022, 9:18 AM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to reassure you, yes, I have checked EVERYWHERE for water! Over and over!!! :-D. There is no water forward of the v-berth bulkhead. And I really feel confident now that a hammer blow cracked the liner and probably put a smaller crack in the top of the CB trunk. So the fix will not be hard once I haul. And when I do haul, I will take a LOT of photos of the truck and find the stop bolt. From your description and my observations of the boat construction (beautifully finished with fillets at joints, etc.) I am confident that any water coming in from that crack is only collecting in the tiny voids that you describe. There is no wood in there to rot. So as long as I don’t drill any MORE holes in that liner…the boat should stay dry. Thanks again so much.
Also, I would like clarification about what is considered the keel of a Montgomery 17. Is the entire structure of the bilge/center board trunk considered to be the “keel”? Is the keel under the vberth? Where and what part exactly the keel? (I had a fin keel cruising boat for 25 years so it was obvious!) The location of my crack is directly above the pivot pin, which is the forward end of the centerboard trunk as I understand the design of the boat. Your description seems to imply that the keel is forward of the CB trunk. But other people who have been posting seem to refer to the keel differently. I am confused. Also, where is the stop bolt i hear about? There was nothing like that on my centerboard and i cant find any photos of it online. Where is it in the centerboard trunk? I am really wishing i had taken photos of the inside of that trunk on the hard!
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Good questions, I'll clarify from my perspective. You can see the line drawings I mentioned here, among other places online: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/montgomery-17 The keel on a boat is technically the whole bottom center piece, from bow to stern. In this case by 'keel' I mean the part like a stubby fin shape that extends below the 'normal' curve of the center of the hull, as seen in the side view line drawings. Some of us call it the 'stub keel' since it is a 'stub' that is lengthened to full profile by the lowered CB. The CB trunk opening does not run the full fore-aft length of this stub keel. It is only long enough fore & aft for the CB to fit up into the stub keel. The line drawings don't show this, but just imagine a vertical line at the front of the CB front radius, and at the rear of the CB rear radius. Fore and aft of that, the keel is solid, not open in center like it is where the CB trunk is. If your interior crack is really just right behind the berth bulkhead, then from the drawings, it is a bit forward of the CB pivot pin. Possibly almost forward of the CB trunk front end, but too hard to tell from the small drawings. If it's a bit further back from the bulkhead, then it is above the trunk opening. Another way to clarify - the CB trunk is the open slot in the stub keel. Fore-aft location as shown in the drawings that show the CB in side view. The stop bolt runs thru the stub keel side to side (port-stbd), near the bottom, just forward of the aft end of the CB trunk slot in the keel. The rear edge of the CB just clears the stop bolt as it is raised or lowered. The top rear end of the CB has a tang (spur, protrusion, finger, etc.) that sticks out a bit beyond the curve of the rest of the rear of the CB. When the CB is lowered as far as it should be, that tang comes down against the stop bolt, to keep the CB from dropping down any further. The stop bolt is normally removed as part of removing the CB. In the case of my boat and the leak into the keel - at some point some prior owner had dropped the CB hard enough onto the stop bolt to cause one side (starboard) of the stop bolt to break downward thru the margin of stub keel material below it. They (or someone) had then done an absolute idiot junk crap 'repair' (is my annoyance clear? ;-) that was mostly caulk and some kind of putty-like substance, maybe some Bondo or something moronic like that. Needless to say it did not re-seal the damage to the keel and that was where the water was oozing into the keel when the boat was in the water. HTH, John On 4/2/22 23:35, Mary Campbell wrote:
Also, I would like clarification about what is considered the keel of a Montgomery 17. Is the entire structure of the bilge/center board trunk considered to be the “keel”? Is the keel under the vberth? Where and what part exactly the keel? (I had a fin keel cruising boat for 25 years so it was obvious!) The location of my crack is directly above the pivot pin, which is the forward end of the centerboard trunk as I understand the design of the boat. Your description seems to imply that the keel is forward of the CB trunk. But other people who have been posting seem to refer to the keel differently. I am confused.
Also, where is the stop bolt i hear about? There was nothing like that on my centerboard and i cant find any photos of it online. Where is it in the centerboard trunk? I am really wishing i had taken photos of the inside of that trunk on the hard!
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Stop bolts were in the much older botes and they had a 160 pound cast iron plate for a centerboard. A hook curve in the aft end of the board and it would catch a bolt going crossways in the back. Plenty of them the hole got elongated and/or that small hook shaped area would break the cast iron. In the mid to late 80s the Bote went to a fiberglass smaller board. No stop bolt. Different configuration. The centerboard and trunk is in the middle of the keel just forward of the bilge area like that photo I sent. So we bond in the trunk envelope and pour lead shot on either side And aft and forward. The top of the trunk is flush with the hull. The liner sits on the top somewhat and I think the clown with the hammer cracked the floor and directly underneath, cracked the board a bit. So it can be fixed but from the top a 4 inch hole saw to actually see the damage or from below would require lifting the Bote and a midget with a crew cut and long handled brush could stick some hot clothe 1 inch wide tape way up. I would just hole saw the crack up top. Lift off the piece and take a look. Unless Aqua is traveling to the crack from elsewhere you can easily fix it. If it’s traveling then check the seam of the board trunk and hull edge and that would indicate someone dropped the boat on concrete. But still could be taped up with 7 ounce cloth around the perimeter. Which we repaired a lot of the older boats to keep water out of the keel area and rust the ballast. You mentioned that they replaced the pin after struggling to get the board out and then laminated up against the new pin. Hopefully they did a good job because the pin goes thru a solid glass cylinder and doesn’t touch the ballast at all. Because of this, no waterproofing the ends of the pin is necessary but if they dropped the hull it could damage that glass cylinder we install by laying a fake pin across the GAP with the trunk in place, and waxing the crap out of this fake pin, then WRAPPING layering hot glass cloth to the thickness of a toilet paper empty roll. Then after that kicks off we slide the waxed fake pin out and a new shorter pin is ready to slide sideways with some caulk to hold the fiberglass board. So hammering the floor inside your boat is really primitive and as you can see damaged the liner by cracking to glass. Time for coffee Bob Sent from my iPad
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:36 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, I would like clarification about what is considered the keel of a Montgomery 17. Is the entire structure of the bilge/center board trunk considered to be the “keel”? Is the keel under the vberth? Where and what part exactly the keel? (I had a fin keel cruising boat for 25 years so it was obvious!) The location of my crack is directly above the pivot pin, which is the forward end of the centerboard trunk as I understand the design of the boat. Your description seems to imply that the keel is forward of the CB trunk. But other people who have been posting seem to refer to the keel differently. I am confused.
Also, where is the stop bolt i hear about? There was nothing like that on my centerboard and i cant find any photos of it online. Where is it in the centerboard trunk? I am really wishing i had taken photos of the inside of that trunk on the hard!
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin. We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear. I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings...
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote:
So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
And, if anyone has any photos that might help the shipwright understand how the keel of a year 2000 Montgomery is put together - or any stories about successful repairs of similar issues - it would be very helpful...
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin.
We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear.
I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings...
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote:
So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Mary. Have you downloaded and read James Hymes's document, shared on Facebook, that details repair a M17 keel? The interior make-up is identical excluding two things: ballast type (lead v steel) and the boats newer than about '88 don't have stop pins. See - https://m.facebook.com/groups/330782353662726/permalink/7009919315748963/ :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 5:11 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
And, if anyone has any photos that might help the shipwright understand how the keel of a year 2000 Montgomery is put together - or any stories about successful repairs of similar issues - it would be very helpful...
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin.
We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear.
I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings...
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote:
So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Mary.. you said drilled out the pin. What does that mean. .? The Pin should tap sideways (after opening up that patch you said they installed on each side) Also, if the original pin was tapped out to remove the board for bottom paint, why fiberglass it to reinstall it. ? Also was the boat dropped and wondering is the board pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk. Then some clown hammered that crack open and water intruded thru the damaged area. Bob Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
And, if anyone has any photos that might help the shipwright understand how the keel of a year 2000 Montgomery is put together - or any stories about successful repairs of similar issues - it would be very helpful...
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin.
We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear.
I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings...
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote:
So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hey Bob, Don't know about "drilling out the pin" but I am sure the reason they glassed the pin in is copying what I did. When I pulled the boat out from the San Juan trip the pin was sticking part way out. I tried what was recommended, can't remember if that was 4200 for 5200 but that did not work and the pin kept working it's way out. So I sanded a bit around the pin and applied some glass cloth so that sucker would not keep coming out. Never painted over it so it would have been clear where the pin was located. Also this was in 2009 so many years of sailing with no leaks after that. Jim On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 6:21 PM Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mary.. you said drilled out the pin. What does that mean. .? The Pin should tap sideways (after opening up that patch you said they installed on each side) Also, if the original pin was tapped out to remove the board for bottom paint, why fiberglass it to reinstall it. ?
Also was the boat dropped and wondering is the board pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk. Then some clown hammered that crack open and water intruded thru the damaged area. Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
And, if anyone has any photos that might help the shipwright understand how the keel of a year 2000 Montgomery is put together - or any stories about successful repairs of similar issues - it would be very helpful...
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin.
We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear.
I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings...
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote:
So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Well. Don’t flood the boat. Glad you pulled the boat but wondering if water gushed out before when your bottom crew pulled the board by first removing the pin….l And why would they FIBERGLASS a pin that wasn’t glassed for 20 years..? Did they hammer on the floor before or after..? Making that crack. Now that the boat is up on Jack stands here’s a permanent fix. 1. Let’s assume water got in recently and thru one of two ways. A. The pin Boss is solid glass, and completely isolated from the water except for the ends (both sides) and held in place with caulking. It slides with force using a punch. If the crew damaged the pin boss by pounding, drilling or hammering the pin area they might have breached the watertight integrity and after looking around hastily decided to FIBERGLASS THE Pin in place. I assume they didn’t use caulk and hammering the pin sideways decided to place a square of glass over the ends to keep it in. 2. So I assume the centerboard trunk to bottom of hull is cracked. Water got inside and Started to run out when you pulled the boat. We can’t figure out after 20 years that this Bote had no issues but here’s how to fix it permanently. A. Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel and go up about 1 inch with the drill. Water will drain and let it stop drainlng. The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground using a grinder, mask and fan to blow crap away from your lungs. All the way around the perimeter. About 20 minutes. Clean with Acetona. On a big piece of cardboard lay out (dry) 1.5 inch wide strips of 7 ounce cloth. Wet out the glass with hot resin and using a brush spread the resin, no bubbles. Lift up the strips and using your hand lay the wet, catalyzed pieces over the seam. Let it dry. Run the board up and down. Use left over cloth to leakproof the pin. (2 inch square). Now the entire bottom is sealed. Back in the water. After checking on day 3 for dry floor, just fill the crack with white caulk and use a squeegee. Go sailing. You can call me if you need anything 949-307-5699 Bob Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 6:21 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mary.. you said drilled out the pin. What does that mean. .? The Pin should tap sideways (after opening up that patch you said they installed on each side) Also, if the original pin was tapped out to remove the board for bottom paint, why fiberglass it to reinstall it. ?
Also was the boat dropped and wondering is the board pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk. Then some clown hammered that crack open and water intruded thru the damaged area. Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
And, if anyone has any photos that might help the shipwright understand how the keel of a year 2000 Montgomery is put together - or any stories about successful repairs of similar issues - it would be very helpful...
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin.
We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear.
I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings...
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote:
So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Did I mention to glass up those two 3/8 holes you drilled…. LOL… YEAH. DO That Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:22 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Well. Don’t flood the boat. Glad you pulled the boat but wondering if water gushed out before when your bottom crew pulled the board by first removing the pin….l And why would they FIBERGLASS a pin that wasn’t glassed for 20 years..? Did they hammer on the floor before or after..? Making that crack.
Now that the boat is up on Jack stands here’s a permanent fix.
1. Let’s assume water got in recently and thru one of two ways. A. The pin Boss is solid glass, and completely isolated from the water except for the ends (both sides) and held in place with caulking. It slides with force using a punch. If the crew damaged the pin boss by pounding, drilling or hammering the pin area they might have breached the watertight integrity and after looking around hastily decided to FIBERGLASS THE Pin in place. I assume they didn’t use caulk and hammering the pin sideways decided to place a square of glass over the ends to keep it in.
2. So I assume the centerboard trunk to bottom of hull is cracked. Water got inside and Started to run out when you pulled the boat. We can’t figure out after 20 years that this Bote had no issues but here’s how to fix it permanently. A. Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel and go up about 1 inch with the drill. Water will drain and let it stop drainlng. The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground using a grinder, mask and fan to blow crap away from your lungs. All the way around the perimeter. About 20 minutes. Clean with Acetona. On a big piece of cardboard lay out (dry) 1.5 inch wide strips of 7 ounce cloth. Wet out the glass with hot resin and using a brush spread the resin, no bubbles. Lift up the strips and using your hand lay the wet, catalyzed pieces over the seam. Let it dry. Run the board up and down. Use left over cloth to leakproof the pin. (2 inch square). Now the entire bottom is sealed. Back in the water. After checking on day 3 for dry floor, just fill the crack with white caulk and use a squeegee. Go sailing. You can call me if you need anything 949-307-5699 Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 6:21 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mary.. you said drilled out the pin. What does that mean. .? The Pin should tap sideways (after opening up that patch you said they installed on each side) Also, if the original pin was tapped out to remove the board for bottom paint, why fiberglass it to reinstall it. ?
Also was the boat dropped and wondering is the board pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk. Then some clown hammered that crack open and water intruded thru the damaged area. Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
And, if anyone has any photos that might help the shipwright understand how the keel of a year 2000 Montgomery is put together - or any stories about successful repairs of similar issues - it would be very helpful...
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin.
We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear.
I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings...
On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote:
So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops. > On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: > > Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and > there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and > anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those > pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from > what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears > now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and > once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time > except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that > indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put > the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in > transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if > they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it > loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really > strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until > I just looked at my pictures. > Jim >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi Bob - thanks for the thoughts. First, to clarify, bad wording on my part…there was no drill involved. Jim had told me about the pin backing out in 2009, and it was glassed in when I got the boat. As he said, it did not leak. Last month when they did the bottom paint, they used a small grinder to take off the glass Jim had added and tapped out the pin (NO DRILLING). No water gushed out when they pulled the pin before because the boat had been in Jim’s driveway in Temecula for several years and the only water that had gotten near the boat was on the freeway heading north to Olympia in November. The centerboard came down very easily….they did the barrier coat and the bottom paint and they put the board back in and the pin and then glassed it over. They glassed it in because I had told them about Jim’s experience with the caulk failing. I don’t think that they used caulk at all. Then they painted over the glass and launched the boat. They did a nice job. They said they did not even have to enter the cabin (where the crack was in the liner) because to lower the centerboard, they just cut the knot and lowered it onto a cushion on the ground. I did not discover the leak as soon as we launched because it was under the carpet in the cabin and my hunch is that it took a while to work its way up the voids, by which time I had left the boat. I had several other things I needed to tend to in the next two days and it was day three before I got back to the boat to bend on sails, etc. The people who have looked at the crack on the liner in person are baffled. All three feel that a hammer strike would have a lot more crazing and shatter lines, not one clean crack. I watched him remove the pin today - he used a very small grinder-like tool us enough to reveal the head of the pin under the three layers of glass they had applied. Then he tapped the pin out using a hammer and screwdriver. The screwdriver stayed in the hole replacing the pin until he and I lifted the weight of the CB enough for him to pull out the screwdriver and lower the board. I am sure that this is exactly what they did before, although it was easier to find the pin because it was not painted over. We looked up into the centerboard envelope and nothing obvious jumped out at us. He will see if his endoscope can fit in there to look. He was thinking it might make sense to use a hole saw to open up the liner around the crack and see if there is a crack in the top of the trunk right below. He’s also worried about getting into some very expensive repairs because he is not sure exactly how the hull in that area is put together. So, here are some specific questions because I want to make sure I completely understand your directions... 1. The two sides of the centerboard trunk…do they come out of the mold - like as part of the hull - in that form? Or are they layed up separately and then tabbed in? 2. When you say "Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel” do you mean the ‘keel’ forward of the CB envelope? On each side of the CB trunk? Or just wherever the lowest point of the entire keel/CB trunk/bilge area is? 3. When you say "The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground” do you mean the seam at the top of the CB envelope where it comes into contact with the liner? And when you say “both areas”, what does that refer to - both sides of the inside of the trunk? or ??? 4. Not sure what should be happening for ‘about 20 minutes’ - grinding??? 5. It sounds like you don’t feel that he needs to do anything to rectify the delamination on the sides of the CB envelope…it is enough just to make sure it is sealed up? And YES, we will glass up those 3/8” holes Thanks for all the help!
On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:24 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Did I mention to glass up those two 3/8 holes you drilled…. LOL… YEAH. DO That Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:22 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Well. Don’t flood the boat. Glad you pulled the boat but wondering if water gushed out before when your bottom crew pulled the board by first removing the pin….l And why would they FIBERGLASS a pin that wasn’t glassed for 20 years..? Did they hammer on the floor before or after..? Making that crack.
Now that the boat is up on Jack stands here’s a permanent fix.
1. Let’s assume water got in recently and thru one of two ways. A. The pin Boss is solid glass, and completely isolated from the water except for the ends (both sides) and held in place with caulking. It slides with force using a punch. If the crew damaged the pin boss by pounding, drilling or hammering the pin area they might have breached the watertight integrity and after looking around hastily decided to FIBERGLASS THE Pin in place. I assume they didn’t use caulk and hammering the pin sideways decided to place a square of glass over the ends to keep it in.
2. So I assume the centerboard trunk to bottom of hull is cracked. Water got inside and Started to run out when you pulled the boat. We can’t figure out after 20 years that this Bote had no issues but here’s how to fix it permanently. A. Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel and go up about 1 inch with the drill. Water will drain and let it stop drainlng. The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground using a grinder, mask and fan to blow crap away from your lungs. All the way around the perimeter. About 20 minutes. Clean with Acetona. On a big piece of cardboard lay out (dry) 1.5 inch wide strips of 7 ounce cloth. Wet out the glass with hot resin and using a brush spread the resin, no bubbles. Lift up the strips and using your hand lay the wet, catalyzed pieces over the seam. Let it dry. Run the board up and down. Use left over cloth to leakproof the pin. (2 inch square). Now the entire bottom is sealed. Back in the water. After checking on day 3 for dry floor, just fill the crack with white caulk and use a squeegee. Go sailing. You can call me if you need anything 949-307-5699 Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 6:21 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mary.. you said drilled out the pin. What does that mean. .? The Pin should tap sideways (after opening up that patch you said they installed on each side) Also, if the original pin was tapped out to remove the board for bottom paint, why fiberglass it to reinstall it. ?
Also was the boat dropped and wondering is the board pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk. Then some clown hammered that crack open and water intruded thru the damaged area. Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
And, if anyone has any photos that might help the shipwright understand how the keel of a year 2000 Montgomery is put together - or any stories about successful repairs of similar issues - it would be very helpful...
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin.
We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear.
I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings...
> On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: > So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. > I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. > Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. > I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. > Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops. >> On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and >> there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and >> anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those >> pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from >> what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears >> now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and >> once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time >> except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that >> indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put >> the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in >> transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if >> they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it >> loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really >> strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until >> I just looked at my pictures. >> Jim >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Also, Bob, to answer your question, I watched the boat get lifted off the trailer, launched and hauled at the local yard. No dropping happened. People keep asking me if the problem could have developed from sitting on a trailer for such a long time. That seems unlikely to me, but what do I know? And finally, to your question about whether the board is pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk... I am not sure how I could know that. When I was in the yard today, I personally let the board down from the cockpit and it came down quite easily…if it is was wedged in the truck it would not have done that...
On Apr 13, 2022, at 9:38 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob - thanks for the thoughts. First, to clarify, bad wording on my part…there was no drill involved.
Jim had told me about the pin backing out in 2009, and it was glassed in when I got the boat. As he said, it did not leak.
Last month when they did the bottom paint, they used a small grinder to take off the glass Jim had added and tapped out the pin (NO DRILLING). No water gushed out when they pulled the pin before because the boat had been in Jim’s driveway in Temecula for several years and the only water that had gotten near the boat was on the freeway heading north to Olympia in November. The centerboard came down very easily….they did the barrier coat and the bottom paint and they put the board back in and the pin and then glassed it over. They glassed it in because I had told them about Jim’s experience with the caulk failing. I don’t think that they used caulk at all.
Then they painted over the glass and launched the boat. They did a nice job. They said they did not even have to enter the cabin (where the crack was in the liner) because to lower the centerboard, they just cut the knot and lowered it onto a cushion on the ground.
I did not discover the leak as soon as we launched because it was under the carpet in the cabin and my hunch is that it took a while to work its way up the voids, by which time I had left the boat. I had several other things I needed to tend to in the next two days and it was day three before I got back to the boat to bend on sails, etc.
The people who have looked at the crack on the liner in person are baffled. All three feel that a hammer strike would have a lot more crazing and shatter lines, not one clean crack.
I watched him remove the pin today - he used a very small grinder-like tool us enough to reveal the head of the pin under the three layers of glass they had applied. Then he tapped the pin out using a hammer and screwdriver. The screwdriver stayed in the hole replacing the pin until he and I lifted the weight of the CB enough for him to pull out the screwdriver and lower the board. I am sure that this is exactly what they did before, although it was easier to find the pin because it was not painted over.
We looked up into the centerboard envelope and nothing obvious jumped out at us. He will see if his endoscope can fit in there to look. He was thinking it might make sense to use a hole saw to open up the liner around the crack and see if there is a crack in the top of the trunk right below. He’s also worried about getting into some very expensive repairs because he is not sure exactly how the hull in that area is put together.
So, here are some specific questions because I want to make sure I completely understand your directions...
1. The two sides of the centerboard trunk…do they come out of the mold - like as part of the hull - in that form? Or are they layed up separately and then tabbed in? 2. When you say "Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel” do you mean the ‘keel’ forward of the CB envelope? On each side of the CB trunk? Or just wherever the lowest point of the entire keel/CB trunk/bilge area is?
3. When you say "The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground” do you mean the seam at the top of the CB envelope where it comes into contact with the liner? And when you say “both areas”, what does that refer to - both sides of the inside of the trunk? or ???
4. Not sure what should be happening for ‘about 20 minutes’ - grinding???
5. It sounds like you don’t feel that he needs to do anything to rectify the delamination on the sides of the CB envelope…it is enough just to make sure it is sealed up?
And YES, we will glass up those 3/8” holes
Thanks for all the help!
On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:24 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Did I mention to glass up those two 3/8 holes you drilled…. LOL… YEAH. DO That Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:22 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Well. Don’t flood the boat. Glad you pulled the boat but wondering if water gushed out before when your bottom crew pulled the board by first removing the pin….l And why would they FIBERGLASS a pin that wasn’t glassed for 20 years..? Did they hammer on the floor before or after..? Making that crack.
Now that the boat is up on Jack stands here’s a permanent fix.
1. Let’s assume water got in recently and thru one of two ways. A. The pin Boss is solid glass, and completely isolated from the water except for the ends (both sides) and held in place with caulking. It slides with force using a punch. If the crew damaged the pin boss by pounding, drilling or hammering the pin area they might have breached the watertight integrity and after looking around hastily decided to FIBERGLASS THE Pin in place. I assume they didn’t use caulk and hammering the pin sideways decided to place a square of glass over the ends to keep it in.
2. So I assume the centerboard trunk to bottom of hull is cracked. Water got inside and Started to run out when you pulled the boat. We can’t figure out after 20 years that this Bote had no issues but here’s how to fix it permanently. A. Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel and go up about 1 inch with the drill. Water will drain and let it stop drainlng. The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground using a grinder, mask and fan to blow crap away from your lungs. All the way around the perimeter. About 20 minutes. Clean with Acetona. On a big piece of cardboard lay out (dry) 1.5 inch wide strips of 7 ounce cloth. Wet out the glass with hot resin and using a brush spread the resin, no bubbles. Lift up the strips and using your hand lay the wet, catalyzed pieces over the seam. Let it dry. Run the board up and down. Use left over cloth to leakproof the pin. (2 inch square). Now the entire bottom is sealed. Back in the water. After checking on day 3 for dry floor, just fill the crack with white caulk and use a squeegee. Go sailing. You can call me if you need anything 949-307-5699 Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 6:21 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mary.. you said drilled out the pin. What does that mean. .? The Pin should tap sideways (after opening up that patch you said they installed on each side) Also, if the original pin was tapped out to remove the board for bottom paint, why fiberglass it to reinstall it. ?
Also was the boat dropped and wondering is the board pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk. Then some clown hammered that crack open and water intruded thru the damaged area. Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
And, if anyone has any photos that might help the shipwright understand how the keel of a year 2000 Montgomery is put together - or any stories about successful repairs of similar issues - it would be very helpful...
> On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin.
We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear.
I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings...
>> On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: > > I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat). > > I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out. > > Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack. > > Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. > The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk. > > In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside. > > From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. > If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel. > > I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up. > > Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top? > > When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. > It never came into the interior of the boat. > There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant. > > So my guess would be one of: > > 1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in. > > 2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in. > > It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior. > > How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in. > > Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick. > > > Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose... > > cheers, > John > > > On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: >> So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. >> I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. >> Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. >> I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. >> Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops. >>> On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and >>> there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and >>> anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those >>> pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from >>> what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears >>> now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and >>> once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time >>> except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that >>> indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put >>> the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in >>> transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if >>> they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it >>> loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really >>> strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until >>> I just looked at my pictures. >>> Jim >>> > > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Mary, Are you an Engineer? I'm getting a kick out of your articulate descriptions and questions about how stuff is glued together. What part of the world is your boat?Stan On Wednesday, April 13, 2022, 09:56:27 PM PDT, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote: Also, Bob, to answer your question, I watched the boat get lifted off the trailer, launched and hauled at the local yard. No dropping happened. People keep asking me if the problem could have developed from sitting on a trailer for such a long time. That seems unlikely to me, but what do I know? And finally, to your question about whether the board is pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk... I am not sure how I could know that. When I was in the yard today, I personally let the board down from the cockpit and it came down quite easily…if it is was wedged in the truck it would not have done that...
On Apr 13, 2022, at 9:38 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob - thanks for the thoughts. First, to clarify, bad wording on my part…there was no drill involved.
Jim had told me about the pin backing out in 2009, and it was glassed in when I got the boat. As he said, it did not leak.
Last month when they did the bottom paint, they used a small grinder to take off the glass Jim had added and tapped out the pin (NO DRILLING). No water gushed out when they pulled the pin before because the boat had been in Jim’s driveway in Temecula for several years and the only water that had gotten near the boat was on the freeway heading north to Olympia in November. The centerboard came down very easily….they did the barrier coat and the bottom paint and they put the board back in and the pin and then glassed it over. They glassed it in because I had told them about Jim’s experience with the caulk failing. I don’t think that they used caulk at all.
Then they painted over the glass and launched the boat. They did a nice job. They said they did not even have to enter the cabin (where the crack was in the liner) because to lower the centerboard, they just cut the knot and lowered it onto a cushion on the ground.
I did not discover the leak as soon as we launched because it was under the carpet in the cabin and my hunch is that it took a while to work its way up the voids, by which time I had left the boat. I had several other things I needed to tend to in the next two days and it was day three before I got back to the boat to bend on sails, etc.
The people who have looked at the crack on the liner in person are baffled. All three feel that a hammer strike would have a lot more crazing and shatter lines, not one clean crack.
I watched him remove the pin today - he used a very small grinder-like tool us enough to reveal the head of the pin under the three layers of glass they had applied. Then he tapped the pin out using a hammer and screwdriver. The screwdriver stayed in the hole replacing the pin until he and I lifted the weight of the CB enough for him to pull out the screwdriver and lower the board. I am sure that this is exactly what they did before, although it was easier to find the pin because it was not painted over.
We looked up into the centerboard envelope and nothing obvious jumped out at us. He will see if his endoscope can fit in there to look. He was thinking it might make sense to use a hole saw to open up the liner around the crack and see if there is a crack in the top of the trunk right below. He’s also worried about getting into some very expensive repairs because he is not sure exactly how the hull in that area is put together.
So, here are some specific questions because I want to make sure I completely understand your directions...
1. The two sides of the centerboard trunk…do they come out of the mold - like as part of the hull - in that form? Or are they layed up separately and then tabbed in? 2. When you say "Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel” do you mean the ‘keel’ forward of the CB envelope? On each side of the CB trunk? Or just wherever the lowest point of the entire keel/CB trunk/bilge area is?
3. When you say "The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground” do you mean the seam at the top of the CB envelope where it comes into contact with the liner? And when you say “both areas”, what does that refer to - both sides of the inside of the trunk? or ???
4. Not sure what should be happening for ‘about 20 minutes’ - grinding???
5. It sounds like you don’t feel that he needs to do anything to rectify the delamination on the sides of the CB envelope…it is enough just to make sure it is sealed up?
And YES, we will glass up those 3/8” holes
Thanks for all the help!
On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:24 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Did I mention to glass up those two 3/8 holes you drilled…. LOL… YEAH. DO That Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:22 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Well. Don’t flood the boat. Glad you pulled the boat but wondering if water gushed out before when your bottom crew pulled the board by first removing the pin….l And why would they FIBERGLASS a pin that wasn’t glassed for 20 years..? Did they hammer on the floor before or after..? Making that crack.
Now that the boat is up on Jack stands here’s a permanent fix.
1. Let’s assume water got in recently and thru one of two ways. A. The pin Boss is solid glass, and completely isolated from the water except for the ends (both sides) and held in place with caulking. It slides with force using a punch. If the crew damaged the pin boss by pounding, drilling or hammering the pin area they might have breached the watertight integrity and after looking around hastily decided to FIBERGLASS THE Pin in place. I assume they didn’t use caulk and hammering the pin sideways decided to place a square of glass over the ends to keep it in.
2. So I assume the centerboard trunk to bottom of hull is cracked. Water got inside and Started to run out when you pulled the boat. We can’t figure out after 20 years that this Bote had no issues but here’s how to fix it permanently. A. Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel and go up about 1 inch with the drill. Water will drain and let it stop drainlng. The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground using a grinder, mask and fan to blow crap away from your lungs. All the way around the perimeter. About 20 minutes. Clean with Acetona. On a big piece of cardboard lay out (dry) 1.5 inch wide strips of 7 ounce cloth. Wet out the glass with hot resin and using a brush spread the resin, no bubbles. Lift up the strips and using your hand lay the wet, catalyzed pieces over the seam. Let it dry. Run the board up and down. Use left over cloth to leakproof the pin. (2 inch square). Now the entire bottom is sealed. Back in the water. After checking on day 3 for dry floor, just fill the crack with white caulk and use a squeegee. Go sailing. You can call me if you need anything 949-307-5699 Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 6:21 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mary.. you said drilled out the pin. What does that mean. .? The Pin should tap sideways (after opening up that patch you said they installed on each side) Also, if the original pin was tapped out to remove the board for bottom paint, why fiberglass it to reinstall it. ?
Also was the boat dropped and wondering is the board pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk. Then some clown hammered that crack open and water intruded thru the damaged area. Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
And, if anyone has any photos that might help the shipwright understand how the keel of a year 2000 Montgomery is put together - or any stories about successful repairs of similar issues - it would be very helpful...
> On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin.
We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear.
I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings...
>> On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: > > I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat). > > I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out. > > Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack. > > Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. > The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk. > > In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside. > > From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. > If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel. > > I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up. > > Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top? > > When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. > It never came into the interior of the boat. > There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant. > > So my guess would be one of: > > 1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in. > > 2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in. > > It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior. > > How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in. > > Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick. > > > Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose... > > cheers, > John > > > On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: >> So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. >> I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. >> Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. >> I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. >> Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops. >>> On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and >>> there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and >>> anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those >>> pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from >>> what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears >>> now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and >>> once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time >>> except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that >>> indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put >>> the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in >>> transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if >>> they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it >>> loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really >>> strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until >>> I just looked at my pictures. >>> Jim >>> > > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Well, I’m glad SOMEONE is getting a kick out of this! I wish I was! My boat’s currently in the yard in Olympia WA.
On Apr 13, 2022, at 10:05 PM, AT&T Account <stanpfa@pacbell.net> wrote:
Mary, Are you an Engineer? I'm getting a kick out of your articulate descriptions and questions about how stuff is glued together. What part of the world is your boat?Stan On Wednesday, April 13, 2022, 09:56:27 PM PDT, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, Bob, to answer your question, I watched the boat get lifted off the trailer, launched and hauled at the local yard. No dropping happened. People keep asking me if the problem could have developed from sitting on a trailer for such a long time. That seems unlikely to me, but what do I know?
And finally, to your question about whether the board is pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk... I am not sure how I could know that. When I was in the yard today, I personally let the board down from the cockpit and it came down quite easily…if it is was wedged in the truck it would not have done that...
On Apr 13, 2022, at 9:38 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob - thanks for the thoughts. First, to clarify, bad wording on my part…there was no drill involved.
Jim had told me about the pin backing out in 2009, and it was glassed in when I got the boat. As he said, it did not leak.
Last month when they did the bottom paint, they used a small grinder to take off the glass Jim had added and tapped out the pin (NO DRILLING). No water gushed out when they pulled the pin before because the boat had been in Jim’s driveway in Temecula for several years and the only water that had gotten near the boat was on the freeway heading north to Olympia in November. The centerboard came down very easily….they did the barrier coat and the bottom paint and they put the board back in and the pin and then glassed it over. They glassed it in because I had told them about Jim’s experience with the caulk failing. I don’t think that they used caulk at all.
Then they painted over the glass and launched the boat. They did a nice job. They said they did not even have to enter the cabin (where the crack was in the liner) because to lower the centerboard, they just cut the knot and lowered it onto a cushion on the ground.
I did not discover the leak as soon as we launched because it was under the carpet in the cabin and my hunch is that it took a while to work its way up the voids, by which time I had left the boat. I had several other things I needed to tend to in the next two days and it was day three before I got back to the boat to bend on sails, etc.
The people who have looked at the crack on the liner in person are baffled. All three feel that a hammer strike would have a lot more crazing and shatter lines, not one clean crack.
I watched him remove the pin today - he used a very small grinder-like tool us enough to reveal the head of the pin under the three layers of glass they had applied. Then he tapped the pin out using a hammer and screwdriver. The screwdriver stayed in the hole replacing the pin until he and I lifted the weight of the CB enough for him to pull out the screwdriver and lower the board. I am sure that this is exactly what they did before, although it was easier to find the pin because it was not painted over.
We looked up into the centerboard envelope and nothing obvious jumped out at us. He will see if his endoscope can fit in there to look. He was thinking it might make sense to use a hole saw to open up the liner around the crack and see if there is a crack in the top of the trunk right below. He’s also worried about getting into some very expensive repairs because he is not sure exactly how the hull in that area is put together.
So, here are some specific questions because I want to make sure I completely understand your directions...
1. The two sides of the centerboard trunk…do they come out of the mold - like as part of the hull - in that form? Or are they layed up separately and then tabbed in? 2. When you say "Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel” do you mean the ‘keel’ forward of the CB envelope? On each side of the CB trunk? Or just wherever the lowest point of the entire keel/CB trunk/bilge area is?
3. When you say "The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground” do you mean the seam at the top of the CB envelope where it comes into contact with the liner? And when you say “both areas”, what does that refer to - both sides of the inside of the trunk? or ???
4. Not sure what should be happening for ‘about 20 minutes’ - grinding???
5. It sounds like you don’t feel that he needs to do anything to rectify the delamination on the sides of the CB envelope…it is enough just to make sure it is sealed up?
And YES, we will glass up those 3/8” holes
Thanks for all the help!
On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:24 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Did I mention to glass up those two 3/8 holes you drilled…. LOL… YEAH. DO That Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:22 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Well. Don’t flood the boat. Glad you pulled the boat but wondering if water gushed out before when your bottom crew pulled the board by first removing the pin….l And why would they FIBERGLASS a pin that wasn’t glassed for 20 years..? Did they hammer on the floor before or after..? Making that crack.
Now that the boat is up on Jack stands here’s a permanent fix.
1. Let’s assume water got in recently and thru one of two ways. A. The pin Boss is solid glass, and completely isolated from the water except for the ends (both sides) and held in place with caulking. It slides with force using a punch. If the crew damaged the pin boss by pounding, drilling or hammering the pin area they might have breached the watertight integrity and after looking around hastily decided to FIBERGLASS THE Pin in place. I assume they didn’t use caulk and hammering the pin sideways decided to place a square of glass over the ends to keep it in.
2. So I assume the centerboard trunk to bottom of hull is cracked. Water got inside and Started to run out when you pulled the boat. We can’t figure out after 20 years that this Bote had no issues but here’s how to fix it permanently. A. Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel and go up about 1 inch with the drill. Water will drain and let it stop drainlng. The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground using a grinder, mask and fan to blow crap away from your lungs. All the way around the perimeter. About 20 minutes. Clean with Acetona. On a big piece of cardboard lay out (dry) 1.5 inch wide strips of 7 ounce cloth. Wet out the glass with hot resin and using a brush spread the resin, no bubbles. Lift up the strips and using your hand lay the wet, catalyzed pieces over the seam. Let it dry. Run the board up and down. Use left over cloth to leakproof the pin. (2 inch square). Now the entire bottom is sealed. Back in the water. After checking on day 3 for dry floor, just fill the crack with white caulk and use a squeegee. Go sailing. You can call me if you need anything 949-307-5699 Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 6:21 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mary.. you said drilled out the pin. What does that mean. .? The Pin should tap sideways (after opening up that patch you said they installed on each side) Also, if the original pin was tapped out to remove the board for bottom paint, why fiberglass it to reinstall it. ?
Also was the boat dropped and wondering is the board pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk. Then some clown hammered that crack open and water intruded thru the damaged area. Bob
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
And, if anyone has any photos that might help the shipwright understand how the keel of a year 2000 Montgomery is put together - or any stories about successful repairs of similar issues - it would be very helpful...
>> On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote: > > Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin. > > We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear. > > I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings... > > > >>> On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >> >> I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat). >> >> I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out. >> >> Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack. >> >> Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. >> The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk. >> >> In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside. >> >> From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. >> If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel. >> >> I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up. >> >> Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top? >> >> When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. >> It never came into the interior of the boat. >> There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant. >> >> So my guess would be one of: >> >> 1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in. >> >> 2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in. >> >> It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior. >> >> How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in. >> >> Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick. >> >> >> Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose... >> >> cheers, >> John >> >> >> On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: >>> So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. >>> I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. >>> Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. >>> I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. >>> Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops. >>>> On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and >>>> there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and >>>> anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those >>>> pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from >>>> what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears >>>> now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and >>>> once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time >>>> except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that >>>> indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put >>>> the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in >>>> transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if >>>> they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it >>>> loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really >>>> strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until >>>> I just looked at my pictures. >>>> Jim >>>> >> >> >> -- >> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >> -------------------------------------------- >> - Eco-Living - >> Whole Systems Design Services >> People - Place - Learning - Integration >> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >> http://eco-living.net >> http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Bob - Still puzzling over your suggestion #2. What tool/grinder will reach up 10” into a 1.5” slot to do the grinding you suggest? I have spoken with three different boatwrights/glass repair people and they can’t see how they would do that.
On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:24 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Did I mention to glass up those two 3/8 holes you drilled…. LOL… YEAH. DO That
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:22 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Well. Don’t flood the boat. Glad you pulled the boat but wondering if water gushed out before when your bottom crew pulled the board by first removing the pin….l And why would they FIBERGLASS a pin that wasn’t glassed for 20 years..? Did they hammer on the floor before or after..? Making that crack.
Now that the boat is up on Jack stands here’s a permanent fix.
1. Let’s assume water got in recently and thru one of two ways. A. The pin Boss is solid glass, and completely isolated from the water except for the ends (both sides) and held in place with caulking. It slides with force using a punch. If the crew damaged the pin boss by pounding, drilling or hammering the pin area they might have breached the watertight integrity and after looking around hastily decided to FIBERGLASS THE Pin in place. I assume they didn’t use caulk and hammering the pin sideways decided to place a square of glass over the ends to keep it in.
2. So I assume the centerboard trunk to bottom of hull is cracked. Water got inside and Started to run out when you pulled the boat. We can’t figure out after 20 years that this Bote had no issues but here’s how to fix it permanently. A. Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel and go up about 1 inch with the drill. Water will drain and let it stop drainlng. The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground using a grinder, mask and fan to blow crap away from your lungs. All the way around the perimeter. About 20 minutes. Clean with Acetona. On a big piece of cardboard lay out (dry) 1.5 inch wide strips of 7 ounce cloth. Wet out the glass with hot resin and using a brush spread the resin, no bubbles. Lift up the strips and using your hand lay the wet, catalyzed pieces over the seam. Let it dry. Run the board up and down. Use left over cloth to leakproof the pin. (2 inch square). Now the entire bottom is sealed. Back in the water. After checking on day 3 for dry floor, just fill the crack with white caulk and use a squeegee. Go sailing. You can call me if you need anything 949-307-5699 Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 6:21 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mary.. you said drilled out the pin. What does that mean. .? The Pin should tap sideways (after opening up that patch you said they installed on each side) Also, if the original pin was tapped out to remove the board for bottom paint, why fiberglass it to reinstall it. ?
Also was the boat dropped and wondering is the board pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk. Then some clown hammered that crack open and water intruded thru the damaged area. Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
And, if anyone has any photos that might help the shipwright understand how the keel of a year 2000 Montgomery is put together - or any stories about successful repairs of similar issues - it would be very helpful...
On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin.
We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear.
I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings...
> On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat).
I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out.
Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack.
Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk.
In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside.
From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel.
I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up.
Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top?
When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant.
So my guess would be one of:
1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in.
2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in.
It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior.
How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in.
Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick.
Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose...
cheers, John
On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: > So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. > I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. > Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. > I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. > Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops. >> On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and >> there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and >> anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those >> pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from >> what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears >> now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and >> once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time >> except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that >> indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put >> the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in >> transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if >> they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it >> loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really >> strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until >> I just looked at my pictures. >> Jim >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Mary. You’re going to tape the bottom edge. Email me and I’ll send you a photo Bob [image] Sent from my iPad On Apr 26, 2022, at 5:32 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote: Bob - Still puzzling over your suggestion #2. What tool/grinder will reach up 10” into a 1.5” slot to do the grinding you suggest? I have spoken with three different boatwrights/glass repair people and they can’t see how they would do that. On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:24 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote: Did I mention to glass up those two 3/8 holes you drilled…. LOL… YEAH. DO That Sent from my iPad On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:22 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote: Well. Don’t flood the boat. Glad you pulled the boat but wondering if water gushed out before when your bottom crew pulled the board by first removing the pin….l And why would they FIBERGLASS a pin that wasn’t glassed for 20 years..? Did they hammer on the floor before or after..? Making that crack. Now that the boat is up on Jack stands here’s a permanent fix. 1. Let’s assume water got in recently and thru one of two ways. A. The pin Boss is solid glass, and completely isolated from the water except for the ends (both sides) and held in place with caulking. It slides with force using a punch. If the crew damaged the pin boss by pounding, drilling or hammering the pin area they might have breached the watertight integrity and after looking around hastily decided to FIBERGLASS THE Pin in place. I assume they didn’t use caulk and hammering the pin sideways decided to place a square of glass over the ends to keep it in. 2. So I assume the centerboard trunk to bottom of hull is cracked. Water got inside and Started to run out when you pulled the boat. We can’t figure out after 20 years that this Bote had no issues but here’s how to fix it permanently. A. Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel and go up about 1 inch with the drill. Water will drain and let it stop drainlng. The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground using a grinder, mask and fan to blow crap away from your lungs. All the way around the perimeter. About 20 minutes. Clean with Acetona. On a big piece of cardboard lay out (dry) 1.5 inch wide strips of 7 ounce cloth. Wet out the glass with hot resin and using a brush spread the resin, no bubbles. Lift up the strips and using your hand lay the wet, catalyzed pieces over the seam. Let it dry. Run the board up and down. Use left over cloth to leakproof the pin. (2 inch square). Now the entire bottom is sealed. Back in the water. After checking on day 3 for dry floor, just fill the crack with white caulk and use a squeegee. Go sailing. You can call me if you need anything 949-307-5699 Bob Sent from my iPad On Apr 13, 2022, at 6:21 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote: Mary.. you said drilled out the pin. What does that mean. .? The Pin should tap sideways (after opening up that patch you said they installed on each side) Also, if the original pin was tapped out to remove the board for bottom paint, why fiberglass it to reinstall it. ? Also was the boat dropped and wondering is the board pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk. Then some clown hammered that crack open and water intruded thru the damaged area. Bob Sent from my iPad On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote: And, if anyone has any photos that might help the shipwright understand how the keel of a year 2000 Montgomery is put together - or any stories about successful repairs of similar issues - it would be very helpful... On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote: Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin. We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear. I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings... On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat). I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out. Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack. Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk. In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside. From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel. I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up. Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top? When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. It never came into the interior of the boat. There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant. So my guess would be one of: 1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in. 2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in. It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior. How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in. Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick. Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose... cheers, John On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops. On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On 4/13/22 17:03, Mary Campbell wrote:
...So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear.
That is a possibility, if the tubes for the pin are no longer water-tight sealed to either or both of those inside faces. Flooding the boat might show that...if that's the only place water gets in, then that should be the only place you see it coming out. Re-sealing that joint without some major surgery could be a bit of a trick though.
...My boat does not have the old steel punchings...
If you have lead ballast, then having some water in your keel is not necessarily a problem worth spending huge amounts on. You do need to find where it gets inside the hull from the keel, and seal that. Which may also be a bit of a trick given the liner is covering what seems to be the problem area. No other ideas at the moment... cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (9)
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AT&T Account -
Bob Eeg -
Dave Scobie -
Henry Rodriguez -
jerry montgomery -
Jim Ellsworth -
John Schinnerer -
mary campbell -
Mary Campbell