Thanks Connie, There's also a toggle between chainplate and turnbuckle of course. The standing rigging on the boat when I got it had nicopress/thimble at both upper and lower ends of all stay & shroud wires. So at the lower (turnbuckle) ends, the thimble connects to a toggle-jaw (T-toggle) on the turnbuckles. I've since replaced the forestay and backstay, to accommodate the roller reefing jib & improve/adjust mast rake. So those are now eye toggles at masthead and swaged studs at upper side of turnbuckles. Shrouds are still the thimble-nicopress-toggle-jaw combo however. Very good info about the cotter pins. I had forgotten, but when I'd seen cotter pins used by "professionals" in machining operations, it was done as you describe from the S&S article. Trimmed to proper length, smoothed, spread just enough to hold, not bent back. I am using cotter rings wherever possible, which reduces snagging somewhat. cheers, John On 12/06/2018 07:55 AM, Conbert Benneck wrote:

Hi John,

If I understand you correctly, you have a toggle between the upper end of your turnbuckle and the shroud.

The toggle should be between the chainplate and the bottom of the shroud turnbuckle.

The shroud then attaches directly to the upper part of the turnbuckle.

The toggle is put there (between turnbuckle and chainplate) to act as a universal joint.  Then, no matter how the rig might move, no bending moments can be put on the turnbuckle itself (which might bend the lower part of the turnbuckle making it inoperable).

_________________________

_Cotter Pins_

Many years ago I read an article written by Sparkman & Stephens on how to correctly use cotter pins.  It was an eye-opener.

When you buy cotter pins they are much too long. Just like every other sailor I used to bend them way back and then wrap tape over them to protect sails and sheets.

The S&S article explained that I was doing it all wrong.

Their "correct" method was to cut off a cotter pin so that it is about clevis pin diameter + 1/2 clevis pin diameter ( or a bit more).  So if you are using a 1/4" clevis pin, your cotter pin should be about 3/8" long.

Now you take a file and round off the end of the cotter pin, as well as rounding off the outer edges; making the end spherical in shape.

Now, when you insert the cotter pin in the hole in the clevis pin, only about an 1/8th of an inch protrudes. You now gently spread the end of the cotter pin open  about 15 degrees.

The cotter pin will now stay firmly in place; but can easily be removed with a slight pinch with a pair of pliers; and, is infinitely reusable.

With no sharp cotter pin ends to catch sails or sheets this may be your solution.

                                    --------------------------

_Shroud rollers_

I think you can make some yourself using some suitably sized  plastic pipe.

You'll need a plug with a hole at each end as a means to center the pipe on the shroud but you should be able to design and build one and try it out.  If you have a problem, then modify your design.  This sounds like a one Martini design project.

Ciao,

Connie

On 12/5/2018 10:35 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:

...

Thanks Dave & Jerry...

Doesn't the Gorilla tape leave an awful mess (like duct tape) when you take it off? I've used it for other things and if it's been on for long, especially in warm weather, it leaves a sticky mess behind, like duct tape.

Also, to further clarify my situation - my shrouds have toggle-jaw to thimbles & nicopress on the upper sides, not swaged studs (came that way). That's what catches the sheet and/or jib edge as much or more than the turnbuckles themselves. Especially now that I have a higher-cut cruising genny. So just taping the turnbuckles won't do much good.

How about a simple piece of plastic pipe over the lower part? The commercial products seem to be some expensive version of that (except for the soft ones of leather or synthetic fabric).

Re spreader boots/rollers: My spreaders are the floppy kind - a u-shaped SS bracket on each side of mast,held with bolt thru mast, and spreader tubes pivot on bolt thru u-brackets. The outboard ends of tubes have a cast aluminum piece with a slot for the wire and a cotter pin hole across end of slot to capture the wire. So main issue is cotter pin or equivalent (sharp metal) at end of spreader outside shroud. I will look into using something smooth in place of the cotter pin...

A friend has the jib rollers on a larger boat and I like how they work. Better idea than boots it seems to me. Keeps sail off spreader end and also helps it roll over/past. I've had my jib leach catch on the rubber boots in light air, another shortcoming of those.

thanks, John

On 12/05/2018 07:58 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:

...

John- What I do is to use Gorilla tape, which is 2" wide and now available in white.  I just wrap it on the bottom; it'll cover the bottom of the barrel to keep it from turning, and also the pin on the bottom tang, which will help keep the jibsheet from hanging up on it in a drifter.  I keep a roll on the boat because it great for taping telltails.

-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2018 7:30 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers,spreader boots/rollers

John:

Get 3M '35' heavy duty electrical tape.  Wrap the turnbuckles so JUST the cotter pins are covered leaving the bodies open (no trapped water to cause crevice corrosion). This means each turnbuckle has two tape bands: one for the upper swage fitting pin and one for the lower t-bolt pin. Replace yearly (you should be taking the pins out and twisting the turnbuckles a few threads back and forth each way to assure you don't get any rusting and fusing the turnbuckles).

IMO no need for boots on the spreaders.   As you wrote all types interfere with raising/lowering mast and huge overkill for the Mboats. Which speader design do you have?  Fixed or the swinging?  Captive uppers at the spreader ends or held in place with a strand if rigging wire?

:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 7:18 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net wrote:

...

Hi all,

A couple things I want to get in place, or improve, for next season, on my M17.

Anyone have a particular shroud/turnbuckle cover product (or DIY method) they can recommend (meaning you've used it and it works well for you)? I want to be done with jib sheet and/or jib edge catching on turnbuckles/lower shrouds (not to mention want to be done with the wear & tear on sheets & sail).

Same question re spreader boots or jib rollers. Has anyone used the Forespar jib roller or Harken chafe protector roller on your shrouds? They are spec'd for 3/16" and up wire, but I imagine a bushing could be used on 1/8" wire. Saw these rollers in action on a friend's larger boat and seems all around smarter approach than spreader boots. Can't find anyone making a smaller roller for 1/8" wire but if you know of one please point me to it.

I have tried the rubber spreader boots (taylor made or whitecap brands) and IMO they suck; too stiff of material, poor fit, etc..

thanks, John

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design --------------------------------------------

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com