Wrinkle Boat Mates I am in the processing of researching a Harken Furler #434 Lo Load 500 lbs, @ $316 vs #435 Hi Load 950 lbs @ $365. Max wire size 1/8 inch on both Q 1. Is the Lo Load sufficient on a M15? Q 2. Is the extra $49 for a Hi Load worth it? George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
I think it depends more on compatibility of the end connectors (such as the clevis pin diameter) with your existing rig, than the actual rated strength. As I was planning the re-rigging of my M15, I got a chance to see the standing rigging on six different M15s at the cruiser challenge. The majority of M15s had 3/16" clevis pins and stay adjusters, which are generally rated to a SWL (safe working load) of 400 lbs, whereas a few had larger 1/4" hardware rated to 1000 lbs SWL. The actual breaking strength is much higher than the SWL- even the breaking strength of the 400 lb SWL hardware likely exceeds the weight of the entire fully loaded vessel. 1/8" 1x19 316 stainless wire has a breaking strength of around 1700lbs. So the 400 lb SWL hardware is widely used on M15s, and doesn't fail in service- it seems adequately strong. The main issue I saw is that those smaller clevis pins wear quicker, especially on the 1/4" chainplate holes, and may eventually fail from wear or stress cracking with lots of use. Some of the 3/16" pins I saw (especially on my vessel) had lost noticeable diameter at the contact points over the years due to wear, and were wearing a groove wherever they passed through 1/4" holes. In a very high situation with the mast in the water or a collision with a tree, the weak link is likely to be the 400 lb hardware as the 1/8" wire itself is much stronger. With the 1000 lb hardware I think the rig is less likely to break in such a situation, but if it does it's more likely to cause damage to the hull to deck joint during the failure. I think with the 1000lb hardware, the aft chainplate mounting bolts are likely the weak link and might crack or get ripped through the deck. I decided to go with all 1000 lb (1/4" pin) hardware on my re-rig, not because the extra strength is needed, but to get a larger surface area and lower wear surface on the clevis pins, and a better fit in the chainplates without a point load. Tyler
On Sep 4, 2015, at 7:30 PM, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
Wrinkle Boat Mates
I am in the processing of researching a Harken Furler #434 Lo Load 500 lbs, @ $316 vs #435 Hi Load 950 lbs @ $365. Max wire size 1/8 inch on both
Q 1. Is the Lo Load sufficient on a M15?
Q 2. Is the extra $49 for a Hi Load worth it?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
Tyler Thanks for the feedback, I believe from your comments that the Lo Load 500 lb will work on the M15 and give way first in the event of stress. George George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails" On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Tyler Backman <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I think it depends more on compatibility of the end connectors (such as the clevis pin diameter) with your existing rig, than the actual rated strength.
As I was planning the re-rigging of my M15, I got a chance to see the standing rigging on six different M15s at the cruiser challenge. The majority of M15s had 3/16" clevis pins and stay adjusters, which are generally rated to a SWL (safe working load) of 400 lbs, whereas a few had larger 1/4" hardware rated to 1000 lbs SWL. The actual breaking strength is much higher than the SWL- even the breaking strength of the 400 lb SWL hardware likely exceeds the weight of the entire fully loaded vessel. 1/8" 1x19 316 stainless wire has a breaking strength of around 1700lbs.
So the 400 lb SWL hardware is widely used on M15s, and doesn't fail in service- it seems adequately strong. The main issue I saw is that those smaller clevis pins wear quicker, especially on the 1/4" chainplate holes, and may eventually fail from wear or stress cracking with lots of use. Some of the 3/16" pins I saw (especially on my vessel) had lost noticeable diameter at the contact points over the years due to wear, and were wearing a groove wherever they passed through 1/4" holes.
In a very high situation with the mast in the water or a collision with a tree, the weak link is likely to be the 400 lb hardware as the 1/8" wire itself is much stronger. With the 1000 lb hardware I think the rig is less likely to break in such a situation, but if it does it's more likely to cause damage to the hull to deck joint during the failure. I think with the 1000lb hardware, the aft chainplate mounting bolts are likely the weak link and might crack or get ripped through the deck.
I decided to go with all 1000 lb (1/4" pin) hardware on my re-rig, not because the extra strength is needed, but to get a larger surface area and lower wear surface on the clevis pins, and a better fit in the chainplates without a point load.
Tyler
On Sep 4, 2015, at 7:30 PM, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
Wrinkle Boat Mates
I am in the processing of researching a Harken Furler #434 Lo Load 500 lbs, @ $316 vs #435 Hi Load 950 lbs @ $365. Max wire size 1/8 inch on both
Q 1. Is the Lo Load sufficient on a M15?
Q 2. Is the extra $49 for a Hi Load worth it?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
I just replaced a cDI furler with a furlex 50 on my Monty 17 works well Nick Nick and Pam On 4 September 2015 at 23:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
Wrinkle Boat Mates
I am in the processing of researching a Harken Furler #434 Lo Load 500 lbs, @ $316 vs #435 Hi Load 950 lbs @ $365. Max wire size 1/8 inch on both
Q 1. Is the Lo Load sufficient on a M15?
Q 2. Is the extra $49 for a Hi Load worth it?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
Nick and Pam, Why did you replace the CDI? Thanks, Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Tuesday, September 8, 2015, Nick and Pam Field <nickpamfield@gmail.com> wrote:
I just replaced a cDI furler with a furlex 50 on my Monty 17 works well Nick
Nick and Pam
On 4 September 2015 at 23:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Wrinkle Boat Mates
I am in the processing of researching a Harken Furler #434 Lo Load 500 lbs, @ $316 vs #435 Hi Load 950 lbs @ $365. Max wire size 1/8 inch on both
Q 1. Is the Lo Load sufficient on a M15?
Q 2. Is the extra $49 for a Hi Load worth it?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
I found that you couldn't furl under any load and it didn't hold a good shape when I sailed with it furled A local sail maker described it as a sail bag on the forestay Nick Nick and Pam On 8 September 2015 at 23:40, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Nick and Pam,
Why did you replace the CDI?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015, Nick and Pam Field <nickpamfield@gmail.com> wrote:
I just replaced a cDI furler with a furlex 50 on my Monty 17 works well Nick
Nick and Pam
On 4 September 2015 at 23:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Wrinkle Boat Mates
I am in the processing of researching a Harken Furler #434 Lo Load 500 lbs, @ $316 vs #435 Hi Load 950 lbs @ $365. Max wire size 1/8 inch on both
Q 1. Is the Lo Load sufficient on a M15?
Q 2. Is the extra $49 for a Hi Load worth it?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
good grief! On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Nick and Pam Field <nickpamfield@gmail.com> wrote:
I found that you couldn't furl under any load and it didn't hold a good shape when I sailed with it furled A local sail maker described it as a sail bag on the forestay Nick
Nick and Pam
On 8 September 2015 at 23:40, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Nick and Pam,
Why did you replace the CDI?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015, Nick and Pam Field < nickpamfield@gmail.com> wrote:
I just replaced a cDI furler with a furlex 50 on my Monty 17 works well Nick
Nick and Pam
On 4 September 2015 at 23:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Wrinkle Boat Mates
I am in the processing of researching a Harken Furler #434 Lo Load 500 lbs, @ $316 vs #435 Hi Load 950 lbs @ $365. Max wire size 1/8 inch on both
Q 1. Is the Lo Load sufficient on a M15?
Q 2. Is the extra $49 for a Hi Load worth it?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
Has the Furlex changed that? Sounds like you had a problem with your furling line routing causing friction, plus maybe not enough forestay tension and a sail that wasn't designed properly for a furler. I've sailed with a CDI for years and haven't had any of those issues. It will be interesting to see how the Furlex 50 compares. On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:19 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
good grief!
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Nick and Pam Field <nickpamfield@gmail.com
wrote:
I found that you couldn't furl under any load and it didn't hold a good shape when I sailed with it furled A local sail maker described it as a sail bag on the forestay Nick
Nick and Pam
On 8 September 2015 at 23:40, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Nick and Pam,
Why did you replace the CDI?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015, Nick and Pam Field < nickpamfield@gmail.com> wrote:
I just replaced a cDI furler with a furlex 50 on my Monty 17 works well Nick
Nick and Pam
On 4 September 2015 at 23:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Wrinkle Boat Mates
I am in the processing of researching a Harken Furler #434 Lo Load 500 lbs, @ $316 vs #435 Hi Load 950 lbs @ $365. Max wire size 1/8 inch on both
Q 1. Is the Lo Load sufficient on a M15?
Q 2. Is the extra $49 for a Hi Load worth it?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
Sounds like local sailmaker sells Furlex. Bill Ahrens W. A. Ahrens & Associates
On Sep 9, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
Has the Furlex changed that? Sounds like you had a problem with your furling line routing causing friction, plus maybe not enough forestay tension and a sail that wasn't designed properly for a furler. I've sailed with a CDI for years and haven't had any of those issues. It will be interesting to see how the Furlex 50 compares.
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:19 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
good grief!
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Nick and Pam Field <nickpamfield@gmail.com wrote:
I found that you couldn't furl under any load and it didn't hold a good shape when I sailed with it furled A local sail maker described it as a sail bag on the forestay Nick
Nick and Pam
On 8 September 2015 at 23:40, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Nick and Pam,
Why did you replace the CDI?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015, Nick and Pam Field < nickpamfield@gmail.com> wrote:
I just replaced a cDI furler with a furlex 50 on my Monty 17 works well Nick
Nick and Pam
On 4 September 2015 at 23:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Wrinkle Boat Mates
I am in the processing of researching a Harken Furler #434 Lo Load 500 lbs, @ $316 vs #435 Hi Load 950 lbs @ $365. Max wire size 1/8 inch on both
Q 1. Is the Lo Load sufficient on a M15?
Q 2. Is the extra $49 for a Hi Load worth it?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
I'm impressed with the Furlex, I tried everything with the CDI tightening the back stay etc not being able to tighten the luff of the sail was the biggest problem, the Furlex has a swivel at the top of the jib that is raised with the jib halyard making it easy to tension. Nick Nick and Pam On 9 September 2015 at 13:27, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
Has the Furlex changed that? Sounds like you had a problem with your furling line routing causing friction, plus maybe not enough forestay tension and a sail that wasn't designed properly for a furler. I've sailed with a CDI for years and haven't had any of those issues. It will be interesting to see how the Furlex 50 compares.
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:19 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
good grief!
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Nick and Pam Field < nickpamfield@gmail.com
wrote:
I found that you couldn't furl under any load and it didn't hold a good shape when I sailed with it furled A local sail maker described it as a sail bag on the forestay Nick
Nick and Pam
On 8 September 2015 at 23:40, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Nick and Pam,
Why did you replace the CDI?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015, Nick and Pam Field < nickpamfield@gmail.com> wrote:
I just replaced a cDI furler with a furlex 50 on my Monty 17 works well Nick
Nick and Pam
On 4 September 2015 at 23:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Wrinkle Boat Mates
I am in the processing of researching a Harken Furler #434 Lo Load 500 lbs, @ $316 vs #435 Hi Load 950 lbs @ $365. Max wire size 1/8 inch on both
Q 1. Is the Lo Load sufficient on a M15?
Q 2. Is the extra $49 for a Hi Load worth it?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
I replaced my M17's CDI with a Schaefer Snap-Furl 500, but not because the CDI didn't furl well. It did. My issue with the CDI was the integral halyard, which makes it a real PITA to adjust halyard/luff tension. By "furl under load" do you mean furling without paying out the genoa sheet? You're supposed to keep a little tension on the genoa sheet to get a tight furl, but I doubt any furler is intended to be used instead of the genoa sheet to adjust angle of attack. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick and Pam Field" <nickpamfield@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2015 9:05:33 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Roller Furling I found that you couldn't furl under any load and it didn't hold a good shape when I sailed with it furled A local sail maker described it as a sail bag on the forestay Nick Nick and Pam On 8 September 2015 at 23:40, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Nick and Pam,
Why did you replace the CDI?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015, Nick and Pam Field <nickpamfield@gmail.com> wrote:
I just replaced a cDI furler with a furlex 50 on my Monty 17 works well Nick
Nick and Pam
On 4 September 2015 at 23:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Wrinkle Boat Mates
I am in the processing of researching a Harken Furler #434 Lo Load 500 lbs, @ $316 vs #435 Hi Load 950 lbs @ $365. Max wire size 1/8 inch on both
Q 1. Is the Lo Load sufficient on a M15?
Q 2. Is the extra $49 for a Hi Load worth it?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
As far as I can see the Furlex is functionally almost identical to the CDI. Any problems that showed up with the CDI will probably be just the same with the Furlex. Poor sail shape when partially furled is the fault of the sail, not the furler. It needs a luff pad. In high winds the genoa needs to be completely luffing to roll it up, but the CDI hasn't failed yet. Rick M17 # 633 Lynne L On Wednesday, September 9, 2015, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
I replaced my M17's CDI with a Schaefer Snap-Furl 500, but not because the CDI didn't furl well. It did. My issue with the CDI was the integral halyard, which makes it a real PITA to adjust halyard/luff tension.
By "furl under load" do you mean furling without paying out the genoa sheet? You're supposed to keep a little tension on the genoa sheet to get a tight furl, but I doubt any furler is intended to be used instead of the genoa sheet to adjust angle of attack.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick and Pam Field" <nickpamfield@gmail.com <javascript:;>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <javascript:;>> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2015 9:05:33 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Roller Furling
I found that you couldn't furl under any load and it didn't hold a good shape when I sailed with it furled A local sail maker described it as a sail bag on the forestay Nick
Nick and Pam
On 8 September 2015 at 23:40, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Nick and Pam,
Why did you replace the CDI?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015, Nick and Pam Field < nickpamfield@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
I just replaced a cDI furler with a furlex 50 on my Monty 17 works well Nick
Nick and Pam
On 4 September 2015 at 23:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com <javascript:;> <javascript:;>> wrote:
Wrinkle Boat Mates
I am in the processing of researching a Harken Furler #434 Lo Load 500 lbs, @ $316 vs #435 Hi Load 950 lbs @ $365. Max wire size 1/8 inch on both
Q 1. Is the Lo Load sufficient on a M15?
Q 2. Is the extra $49 for a Hi Load worth it?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
I just installed a Schaefer Snap-Furl 500 and picked this one as it lets you use the jib halyard just as you would with a hank on sail. I plan on using the furling system on my outings but storing the furler bare and folding the sail for storage. Just got it installed and have not used it yet but it does say to loosen the halyard a bit and keep some pressure on the sheets for a nice clean roll up. Jim Ellsworth M-17 #603 Grace Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 9, 2015, at 10:14 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
I replaced my M17's CDI with a Schaefer Snap-Furl 500, but not because the CDI didn't furl well. It did. My issue with the CDI was the integral halyard, which makes it a real PITA to adjust halyard/luff tension.
By "furl under load" do you mean furling without paying out the genoa sheet? You're supposed to keep a little tension on the genoa sheet to get a tight furl, but I doubt any furler is intended to be used instead of the genoa sheet to adjust angle of attack.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick and Pam Field" <nickpamfield@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2015 9:05:33 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Roller Furling
I found that you couldn't furl under any load and it didn't hold a good shape when I sailed with it furled A local sail maker described it as a sail bag on the forestay Nick
Nick and Pam
On 8 September 2015 at 23:40, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Nick and Pam,
Why did you replace the CDI?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015, Nick and Pam Field <nickpamfield@gmail.com> wrote:
I just replaced a cDI furler with a furlex 50 on my Monty 17 works well Nick
Nick and Pam
On 4 September 2015 at 23:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Wrinkle Boat Mates
I am in the processing of researching a Harken Furler #434 Lo Load 500 lbs, @ $316 vs #435 Hi Load 950 lbs @ $365. Max wire size 1/8 inch on both
Q 1. Is the Lo Load sufficient on a M15?
Q 2. Is the extra $49 for a Hi Load worth it?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
participants (9)
-
Bill Ahrens -
George Iemmolo -
Jim Ellsworth -
Larry Yake -
Nick and Pam Field -
Rick Davies -
swwheatley＠comcast.net -
Thomas Buzzi -
Tyler Backman