the greatest challenge with the Torqueedo, or any electric motor, is range. just to & from the dock is not a problem. you have many miles to go you could get into trouble. i know of at least one person using a Torqueedo on their M17 for this purpose. if the honda 5 is an issue consider the honda 2.3 long shaft (31lbs). more than enough to move the M17 to/from port; and you don't have the range considerations when using electric. i know some folks that have cruised Puget Sound and San Juan Is. using a Yamaha 2.5 on their M17 (i don't recommend the 2.5 Yamaha as it is only available in a short shaft). -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 10:08 AM, Thornton Wilkinson <ttwilki@mindspring.com

wrote:

I was wondering if one would be adequate for an M17 in protected waters. How about reliability? My 5hp Honda is getting too heavy for me to easily deal with. Thanks Tom

...

On 11/09/2014 06:43 PM, Thornton Wilkinson wrote:

...

Does anyone have any experience with torqueedo electric outboards?

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design

I would say yes, if you mean the model 1003, it should be fine for an M17 in protected waters. Our club was using it on an International Folkboat in protected to relatively protected waters. Mostly to motor on and off mooring or in and out from a tidal current river mouth dock area. The Int'l Folkboat is something like 4500 lbs or a bit more, the 1003 is rated to 1.5 tons (3000 lb). It also got used a few times on our Potter 19, which it was more than adequate for. Page for 503 and 1003: http://www.torqeedo.com/us/electric-outboards/travel-503-1003-with-integrate... cheers, John S. On 11/10/2014 09:08 AM, Thornton Wilkinson wrote:

I was wondering if one would be adequate for an M17 in protected waters. How about reliability? My 5hp Honda is getting too heavy for me to easily deal with. Thanks Tom

On Nov 9, 2014, at 8:56 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:

...

I have some experience...a sailing club I am involved in has a couple for use on our larger club boats (Potter 19 & International Folkboat). I have only used the older & smaller one - it's the model 1003, called the Travel 1003 on their web site. There's a newer more powerful one the club got that I have not seen or tried yet. What did you want to know?

cheers, John S.

On 11/09/2014 06:43 PM, Thornton Wilkinson wrote:

...

Does anyone have any experience with torqueedo electric outboards?

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

Dear sailors, 1980 M-17 Robbin has been electric powered for a few years now. I placed 100 AH of 24V AGM batteries way down low and ran big cables back to a 70 lb thrust trolling motor. As John says, in protected waters we have power and energy to spare. It is ultra-quiet, and with no battery on the motor itself, it is light and easy to lift. If you have sailing skills like mine, you'll occasionally need to tap into that spare capacity :), so I wouldn't go with less thrust. Less stored energy might be OK if your distances are reliably short. On San Rafael Bay, in a strong tidal current and adverse winds, 70 lb thrust and 2.4 KWHr is not enough for me as a comfort/fair-weather sailor. Good winds, Bill Windsor, CA -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of John Schinnerer Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 9:42 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Torqeedo outboards I would say yes, if you mean the model 1003, it should be fine for an M17 in protected waters. Our club was using it on an International Folkboat in protected to relatively protected waters. Mostly to motor on and off mooring or in and out from a tidal current river mouth dock area. The Int'l Folkboat is something like 4500 lbs or a bit more, the 1003 is rated to 1.5 tons (3000 lb). It also got used a few times on our Potter 19, which it was more than adequate for. Page for 503 and 1003: http://www.torqeedo.com/us/electric-outboards/travel-503-1003-with-integrate d-battery-for-inflatables-dinghies-yachts-up-to-1-5-tons/which-travel-motor- for-which-boat cheers, John S. On 11/10/2014 09:08 AM, Thornton Wilkinson wrote:

I was wondering if one would be adequate for an M17 in protected waters. How about reliability? My 5hp Honda is getting too heavy for me to easily deal with. Thanks Tom

On Nov 9, 2014, at 8:56 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:

...

I have some experience...a sailing club I am involved in has a couple for use on our larger club boats (Potter 19 & International Folkboat). I have only used the older & smaller one - it's the model 1003, called the Travel 1003 on their web site. There's a newer more powerful one the club got that I have not seen or tried yet. What did you want to know?

cheers, John S.

On 11/09/2014 06:43 PM, Thornton Wilkinson wrote:

...

Does anyone have any experience with torqueedo electric outboards?

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

For electric drive consider a 24v trolling motor over the Torqeedo- it's cheaper and you can mount the batteries down by the keel where they provide extra ballast. I had a MotorGuide 82# trolling motor on my Catalina 22 and was happy with it. It would run most of the day, would motor at 2 knots dead into a 20 knot headwind, and the boat sailed better with the batteries as extra ballast. Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"

Open wet cell (true deep cycle) battery maintenance is problematic, I mean. The torqeedo battery is sealed high-tech light weight (relatively speaking) so as long as it gets charged regularly it is very low maintenance. An amazing amount of power actually for such a small package - 18AH capacity, and 100% duty cycle (you can run it all the way down, no penalty). That is part of the high price tag... True lead acid wet cell deep cycles are 50% duty cycle (don't run it down more than 50% on any regular basis) and "Marine/RV" so-called "deep cycle" are only about 20% duty cycle (don't run it down more than 20% on any regular basis). Your car battery is 10% duty cycle, for comparison. Designed purely for short high power cranking use. cheers, John S. On 11/11/2014 10:30 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:

Another reason our club got the Torqeedos - issues with gas engine care & maintenance on shared club boats, and with storing gas on the boat (or not). The electric is much simpler in terms of maintenance, and there is no risk of inexperienced people doing stupid things with gasoline (in the engine, in gas cans on the boat, vapors in the bilge, etc.). So it was partly to reduce the hazard of gasoline on the boats and to remove the challenges some people have (or create) with using & maintaining gas motors.

We have used an electric trolling motor on our Potter 19, which is a light boat (but with a lot of windage) - I don't know the thrust, it seems like a medium size trolling motor. 40 lbs? There is a 40 or a 45 on the motor as I recall. Far less power than the Torqeedo 1003. We just run it off one 12V AGM marine battery. It only gets used for getting from launch ramp to rigging tie-up to sailing water, and back. About 1/4 mile each way of protected water I would say. There is current up to ~2 knots in the channel at times though. It is adequate, and, I would NOT want to rely on it in situations needing to motor against much wind or current or for any great distance. It's adequate setup for a specific application. With more battery and a stronger troller it would be less marginal. But battery care/maintenance in a shared club boat is also problematic.

cheers, John S.

On 11/10/2014 09:46 PM, Tyler Backman wrote:

...

For electric drive consider a 24v trolling motor over the Torqeedo- it's cheaper and you can mount the batteries down by the keel where they provide extra ballast. I had a MotorGuide 82# trolling motor on my Catalina 22 and was happy with it. It would run most of the day, would motor at 2 knots dead into a 20 knot headwind, and the boat sailed better with the batteries as extra ballast.

Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

As Judith says, the quiet and easy shifting of electric propulsion are delightful. Plus, it is a gentle treatment of the environment. Be cautious however in depending upon solar power to keep you motoring for long periods. Max (full throttle) power into the 1003 is 1 KW, and at 29.6 battery voltage that means you are drawing over 30 amps. A 45 W panel is going to deliver max 1.5 amps, or approximately 5% of full throttle requirements, and the specs say that it takes 13 hours to fully charge the battery which is rated at somewhat over 0.5 KWHr. I use PV panels for several systems and have found that it takes a lot of effort to obtain 13 hours of sunlight aimed directly on your panel. If you have long charging periods in between uses, that becomes less critical, but steady state solar propulsion would require larger panels. Lapping water on the hull, Bill M-17 Robbin Windsor, CA -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Judith Blumhorst, DC Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 4:28 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Torqeedo outboards I have test-driven the Torqeedo 1003L model (long shaft). Conclusion #1: For daysailing, I'd choose the Torqeedo over a gas OB. It's super easy to carry, to start, to drive, to store it, etc I found it to be more than adequate for day sailing or weekending where a range of 8-10 NM is adequate. I'd give it 5 stars for convenience and ease of use compared to my 5 hp OB. Conclusion #2: Offshore, I think I'd prefer a gas OB because I might I might need to motor 25 NM on a schedule. On the other hand, you can run a Torqeedo on solar power. With the optional 45W flexible solar panel, it runs at 1/4 or 1/3 throttle even with a dead battery. The solar panel will fully charge the battery in about 5-6 hours on a sunny day. Maybe it's the ultimate for boon docking trips in sunny climates Details: Power: It had plenty of thrust for a boat and crew weighing around 3000 pounds. At half throttle it pushed us at 3-4 kts upwind against 5-8 kts of wind. At full throttle, it had plenty of power to push it at 5.+ kts of speed, but it was guzzling watts at full throttle. Battery usage and range for daysailing: After motoring about 5-6 NM during the day, we had 30% of the charge left. We motored upwind out of the Oakland Estuary (4 NM) against a headwind of 5-8 kt, sometimes at half throttle, and sometimes a full throttle. On the way back, the wind died and we motored another 1 NM at half-throttle. When we got close to home we opened it up full throttle for the last mile. It really uses the charge fast at full throttle. Noise: 5 stars. It hums very softly when it's turned on. You talk and hear at normal conversational volume. You can hear the water gurgling easily above it. Throttle and shifting: 5 stars. Turn the throttle one way for forward, turn it the other way for reverse and it responds instantly. There is no need to move a lever to shift. . Electric starting: 5 Stars. It turns on instantly with the touch of a button. Utterly reliable starting. No warm up, no choke. Tilt up mechanism: 5 stars. It takes 2-3 seconds to tilt it up or down and the lever is on the top of the mounting bracket, not underneath the motor head. Much easier than my Nissan 5 hp. Built in instruments: There is a built-in display with a GPS. It displays speed over ground, rate of discharge, and remaining range in miles or NM (and maybe more parameters, but I didn't play with it.) It warns you when you get down to 30% of charge, so you can throttle back if you need to. We used it to monitor how we were doing. Carrying Convenience #1: 5 stars - I carried it down a steep ramp at very low tide and it was easy. I can't do that with my 5 hp gas OB. You can arry it at any angle, no need to keep it upright. It weighs half as much as a my 5 hp 4-stroke OB. It's 20 pounds without the battery on it. The battery weighs about 10 pounds. Storing Convenience #2: 5 stars. There's no gas to spill or smell. No grease. We put it directly on the back seat of the car. When you take the battery and throttle off, it 's very compact and fits almost anywhere. You could put it on top of cushions inside the boat, or on top of gear in car. Or put gear on top of it... without getting anything greasy. One more interesting observation: The shaft of the OB is foil shaped. Even with the power off, you can use the shaft as a rudder to steer the boat while docking. Judy BlumhorstHyde Sails of Northern Californiawww.judybsails.comjudy@judybsails.com cell: 925.208.1692fax: 925.820.2327 skype: judith.blumhorstwww.HydeSails.com From: Thornton Wilkinson <ttwilki@mindspring.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2014 6:43 PM Subject: M_Boats: Torqeedo outboards Does anyone have any experience with torqueedo electric outboards?

A few years back during a time when my outboard was in the shop, I took to using a transom mounted 56# thrust Motorguide trolling motor. (M17). I mostly used it to get on and off the dock and around the marina, but at full throttle, I could get upwards of 4 knots out of it in a calm. At half throttle it was an easy 2.5 to 3 knots. And quiet. On a full charge with a group 24 deep cycle, I'm sure I could have had a range of 5 miles or so (one way). I decided I liked it better than the outboard, so that is what I used most of that summer..........until the day came when I had to buck 25 to 30 knot winds dead on the nose to get back to the dock on a dying battery. My 4 hp outboard would punch through that easy. This wouldn't do it. Haven't used it since. Battery life and charge is your big concern, but so is running out of gas with an outboard. But I think that for the same weight, gas will get you farther and you can see when you are about to run out of it. On Nov 13, 2014, at 11:18 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:

another consideration in using a solar panel is where to locate. a 45W, as as been discussed, will be about 2' x 2' in size (exact depends on model).

solar panel output is significantly reduced by any shading of the panel, or when the sun isn't directly overhead, or even a cloudless but 'hazy' day. even the shade from the mast (just the mast, not the sails) can reduce output.

-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Bill Dixon <bill@miralee.com> wrote:

...

As Judith says, the quiet and easy shifting of electric propulsion are delightful. Plus, it is a gentle treatment of the environment.

Be cautious however in depending upon solar power to keep you motoring for long periods. Max (full throttle) power into the 1003 is 1 KW, and at 29.6 battery voltage that means you are drawing over 30 amps. A 45 W panel is going to deliver max 1.5 amps, or approximately 5% of full throttle requirements, and the specs say that it takes 13 hours to fully charge the battery which is rated at somewhat over 0.5 KWHr. I use PV panels for several systems and have found that it takes a lot of effort to obtain 13 hours of sunlight aimed directly on your panel. If you have long charging periods in between uses, that becomes less critical, but steady state solar propulsion would require larger panels.

Lapping water on the hull,

Bill M-17 Robbin Windsor, CA

Great review! Thanks Judy....:-) Sent from my iPad

On Nov 12, 2014, at 6:27 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC <drjudyb@blumhorst.com> wrote:

I have test-driven the Torqeedo 1003L model (long shaft). Conclusion #1: For daysailing, I'd choose the Torqeedo over a gas OB. It's super easy to carry, to start, to drive, to store it, etc I found it to be more than adequate for day sailing or weekending where a range of 8-10 NM is adequate. I'd give it 5 stars for convenience and ease of use compared to my 5 hp OB. Conclusion #2: Offshore, I think I'd prefer a gas OB because I might I might need to motor 25 NM on a schedule. On the other hand, you can run a Torqeedo on solar power. With the optional 45W flexible solar panel, it runs at 1/4 or 1/3 throttle even with a dead battery. The solar panel will fully charge the battery in about 5-6 hours on a sunny day. Maybe it's the ultimate for boon docking trips in sunny climates Details: Power: It had plenty of thrust for a boat and crew weighing around 3000 pounds. At half throttle it pushed us at 3-4 kts upwind against 5-8 kts of wind. At full throttle, it had plenty of power to push it at 5.+ kts of speed, but it was guzzling watts at full throttle. Battery usage and range for daysailing: After motoring about 5-6 NM during the day, we had 30% of the charge left. We motored upwind out of the Oakland Estuary (4 NM) against a headwind of 5-8 kt, sometimes at half throttle, and sometimes a full throttle. On the way back, the wind died and we motored another 1 NM at half-throttle. When we got close to home we opened it up full throttle for the last mile. It really uses the charge fast at full throttle. Noise: 5 stars. It hums very softly when it's turned on. You talk and hear at normal conversational volume. You can hear the water gurgling easily above it. Throttle and shifting: 5 stars. Turn the throttle one way for forward, turn it the other way for reverse and it responds instantly. There is no need to move a lever to shift. . Electric starting: 5 Stars. It turns on instantly with the touch of a button. Utterly reliable starting. No warm up, no choke. Tilt up mechanism: 5 stars. It takes 2-3 seconds to tilt it up or down and the lever is on the top of the mounting bracket, not underneath the motor head. Much easier than my Nissan 5 hp. Built in instruments: There is a built-in display with a GPS. It displays speed over ground, rate of discharge, and remaining range in miles or NM (and maybe more parameters, but I didn't play with it.) It warns you when you get down to 30% of charge, so you can throttle back if you need to. We used it to monitor how we were doing. Carrying Convenience #1: 5 stars - I carried it down a steep ramp at very low tide and it was easy. I can't do that with my 5 hp gas OB. You can arry it at any angle, no need to keep it upright. It weighs half as much as a my 5 hp 4-stroke OB. It's 20 pounds without the battery on it. The battery weighs about 10 pounds. Storing Convenience #2: 5 stars. There's no gas to spill or smell. No grease. We put it directly on the back seat of the car. When you take the battery and throttle off, it 's very compact and fits almost anywhere. You could put it on top of cushions inside the boat, or on top of gear in car. Or put gear on top of it... without getting anything greasy. One more interesting observation: The shaft of the OB is foil shaped. Even with the power off, you can use the shaft as a rudder to steer the boat while docking.

Judy BlumhorstHyde Sails of Northern Californiawww.judybsails.comjudy@judybsails.com cell: 925.208.1692fax: 925.820.2327 skype: judith.blumhorstwww.HydeSails.com

From: Thornton Wilkinson <ttwilki@mindspring.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2014 6:43 PM Subject: M_Boats: Torqeedo outboards

Does anyone have any experience with torqueedo electric outboards?

Hi M-boaters, I am rebuilding the port interior of my M-23 and found I need to steam and bend ash strips that I had milled. So I saw a course in traditional boat building at the NC Maritime museum this summer and signed up. The course was last weekend and we did not steam wood. However, we _did_ build a 14' traditional rack of eye skiff (no, I had no idea what this meant, it means by eye (no plans)) out of yellow pine planks, SS screws and 3M 5200. We got to use the boat house (larger than most barns) on the water front in Beaufort NC which was loaded with power tools of all sorts. I love history, I love boats, I love woodworking so this was a blast! All I can say is that if you have a chance to do this or the other boat building courses there (I signed up for contemporary boat building before leaving) I can highly recommend them based on this course. Back to rebuilding my M-23! Cheers Robbin