So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation? Sent from my iPhone
David ... just pondering on this while we wait for Jerry to comment - Isn't your M17 on of the earliest boats? Hull 60-something? :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Mon, Dec 16, 2019, 1:06 PM David Bailey via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation?
Sent from my iPhone
If you're going to return to the o.e. setup where the rudder slides up and down on a rod, you want three transom gudgeons. The center transom gudgeon is needed to help keep the rod from bending when the rudder is in a raised position. Also, it looks like your upper transom gudgeon has been lowered from the o.e. position, probably to accommodate some after-market rudder. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of David Bailey via montgomery_boats Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 4:03 PM To: Monty Email Group <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Rudder Question So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation?
My Monty 17, 1974 had two because it has a "beaching rudder" which rode on a 1/2" steel rod and would slide up and down to raise the rudder tip somewhat. My 1977 model Monty 17 (purchased 30 years later) has three. One is just below the waterline and the other three inches down from the top of the transom. A third is spaced between with no rod but three pintles instead. The bottom one takes a lot of pressure but the boat is so small that the forces involved are well within rig design limits. Consider a rudder from Ruddercraft. The whole lower blade flips up with the quick snap of a lanyard. If you keep the boat in the water that keeps all marine growth off your rudder as well as allowing the rudder to swing up over obstacles underwater. Or you can make your own pop up rudder using two ss plates which include a pivot and are thru bolted to each other through your rudder. On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 3:06 PM David Bailey via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation?
Sent from my iPhone
We've got hull #23 from 1974. I think these two are in the original locations. We also put on a ruddercraft. -Gerry
On Dec 16, 2019, at 8:17 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
My Monty 17, 1974 had two because it has a "beaching rudder" which rode on a 1/2" steel rod and would slide up and down to raise the rudder tip somewhat. My 1977 model Monty 17 (purchased 30 years later) has three. One is just below the waterline and the other three inches down from the top of the transom. A third is spaced between with no rod but three pintles instead. The bottom one takes a lot of pressure but the boat is so small that the forces involved are well within rig design limits. Consider a rudder from Ruddercraft. The whole lower blade flips up with the quick snap of a lanyard. If you keep the boat in the water that keeps all marine growth off your rudder as well as allowing the rudder to swing up over obstacles underwater. Or you can make your own pop up rudder using two ss plates which include a pivot and are thru bolted to each other through your rudder.
On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 3:06 PM David Bailey via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation?
Sent from my iPhone
I think you have the OEM gudgeons for that vintage. What number is your hull? My '74 #38 "Pajarita" came with two gudgeons. There was no sign of them ever having been moved or of others having been in different locations. From a look at some photos when I first got her, location was about identical to yours. Also same as Gerry L's gudgeon location. Mine also came with what I assume is the OEM rudder of that vintage, which is a two pintle fixed (no slide up, no kick up) rudder with a slight counterbalance leading edge under the keel, forward of the pivot axis. This is actually a more nimble rudder design - faster turning for less effort. But no sliding up for shallow spots/beaching/etc. I knew I would have some use for a shallower draft option. So, I bought a used, later model OEM 3-gudgeon slide up rudder from a list member, Jerry found an OEM gudgeon in his parts boxes and sold me that, and I remounted three gudgeons to fit the slide up rudder locations. I've also remounted the pintles on the original OEM counterbalance rudder to match the new top and bottom gudgeon locations, so I can use either rudder. If you want the Jerry-designed slide-up you'll need to reconfigure your stern for that. Others here have recommended a place called J-O Woodworks who can make you an OEM style wood rudder for slide-up. If you spring for the Ruddercraft kick-up, I don't know, but others here have them & could tell you if the pintle location is custom per order (e.g. keep your gudgeons where they are) or some stock position that you might have to remount for. If you happen to see this Jerry - I'm curious if you remember how many of the counterbalanced rudder 2-pintle M17s you made, way back in the olden days. cheers, John On 12/16/19 1:03 PM, David Bailey via montgomery_boats wrote:
So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation?
Sent from my iPhone
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
CornDog, hull #200, 1976 model, also had the original Lyle Hess design counterbalanced 2 pintle rudder. On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 7:42 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I think you have the OEM gudgeons for that vintage. What number is your hull?
My '74 #38 "Pajarita" came with two gudgeons. There was no sign of them ever having been moved or of others having been in different locations. From a look at some photos when I first got her, location was about identical to yours. Also same as Gerry L's gudgeon location.
Mine also came with what I assume is the OEM rudder of that vintage, which is a two pintle fixed (no slide up, no kick up) rudder with a slight counterbalance leading edge under the keel, forward of the pivot axis. This is actually a more nimble rudder design - faster turning for less effort. But no sliding up for shallow spots/beaching/etc.
I knew I would have some use for a shallower draft option.
So, I bought a used, later model OEM 3-gudgeon slide up rudder from a list member, Jerry found an OEM gudgeon in his parts boxes and sold me that, and I remounted three gudgeons to fit the slide up rudder locations.
I've also remounted the pintles on the original OEM counterbalance rudder to match the new top and bottom gudgeon locations, so I can use either rudder.
If you want the Jerry-designed slide-up you'll need to reconfigure your stern for that. Others here have recommended a place called J-O Woodworks who can make you an OEM style wood rudder for slide-up.
If you spring for the Ruddercraft kick-up, I don't know, but others here have them & could tell you if the pintle location is custom per order (e.g. keep your gudgeons where they are) or some stock position that you might have to remount for.
If you happen to see this Jerry - I'm curious if you remember how many of the counterbalanced rudder 2-pintle M17s you made, way back in the olden days.
cheers, John
On 12/16/19 1:03 PM, David Bailey via montgomery_boats wrote:
So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation?
Sent from my iPhone
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Interesting. My 1976, hull no. 215, has the three gudgeon, sliding rudder set-up. So, yours may have been one of the last with the counterbalanced rudder and mine may have been one of the first with the sliding rudder. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Larry Yake Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 10:50 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Question CornDog, hull #200, 1976 model, also had the original Lyle Hess design counterbalanced 2 pintle rudder.
My hull was #258. Yes, the changes from year to year were subtle but do represent the attempt to update the craft. On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 11:02 AM <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
Interesting. My 1976, hull no. 215, has the three gudgeon, sliding rudder set-up. So, yours may have been one of the last with the counterbalanced rudder and mine may have been one of the first with the sliding rudder.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Larry Yake Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 10:50 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Question
CornDog, hull #200, 1976 model, also had the original Lyle Hess design counterbalanced 2 pintle rudder.
PS - just looked at Gerry's pic, and obviously he got a Ruddercraft with pintles located to fit where his gudgeons were. cheers, John On 12/16/19 7:42 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
I think you have the OEM gudgeons for that vintage. What number is your hull?
My '74 #38 "Pajarita" came with two gudgeons. There was no sign of them ever having been moved or of others having been in different locations. From a look at some photos when I first got her, location was about identical to yours. Also same as Gerry L's gudgeon location.
Mine also came with what I assume is the OEM rudder of that vintage, which is a two pintle fixed (no slide up, no kick up) rudder with a slight counterbalance leading edge under the keel, forward of the pivot axis. This is actually a more nimble rudder design - faster turning for less effort. But no sliding up for shallow spots/beaching/etc.
I knew I would have some use for a shallower draft option.
So, I bought a used, later model OEM 3-gudgeon slide up rudder from a list member, Jerry found an OEM gudgeon in his parts boxes and sold me that, and I remounted three gudgeons to fit the slide up rudder locations.
I've also remounted the pintles on the original OEM counterbalance rudder to match the new top and bottom gudgeon locations, so I can use either rudder.
If you want the Jerry-designed slide-up you'll need to reconfigure your stern for that. Others here have recommended a place called J-O Woodworks who can make you an OEM style wood rudder for slide-up.
If you spring for the Ruddercraft kick-up, I don't know, but others here have them & could tell you if the pintle location is custom per order (e.g. keep your gudgeons where they are) or some stock position that you might have to remount for.
If you happen to see this Jerry - I'm curious if you remember how many of the counterbalanced rudder 2-pintle M17s you made, way back in the olden days.
cheers, John
On 12/16/19 1:03 PM, David Bailey via montgomery_boats wrote:
So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation?
Sent from my iPhone
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I have a two gudgeon with a tip up rudder. Works fine. If I was going to sail my 15 to Hawaii and be prepared for lying to with sea anchor and subsequent sternway, I’d beef it up. Not going to do that. I bought an Ida Sailor after market tip up for and old( pre motorsailor) MAC 25. Resulted in fantastic windward performance. The company has been bought up by another but maintains stock. Also makes windows. They make Monte aftermarket rudders too. The essential thing about tip ups is that you NEVER sail in high winds with the blade tipped up to shoal position, too much lever arm. If you had five gudgeon/ pintles you could still rip it out of the stern. If you didn’t shatter your tiller first. Ed Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2019, at 7:42 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I think you have the OEM gudgeons for that vintage. What number is your hull?
My '74 #38 "Pajarita" came with two gudgeons. There was no sign of them ever having been moved or of others having been in different locations. From a look at some photos when I first got her, location was about identical to yours. Also same as Gerry L's gudgeon location.
Mine also came with what I assume is the OEM rudder of that vintage, which is a two pintle fixed (no slide up, no kick up) rudder with a slight counterbalance leading edge under the keel, forward of the pivot axis. This is actually a more nimble rudder design - faster turning for less effort. But no sliding up for shallow spots/beaching/etc.
I knew I would have some use for a shallower draft option.
So, I bought a used, later model OEM 3-gudgeon slide up rudder from a list member, Jerry found an OEM gudgeon in his parts boxes and sold me that, and I remounted three gudgeons to fit the slide up rudder locations.
I've also remounted the pintles on the original OEM counterbalance rudder to match the new top and bottom gudgeon locations, so I can use either rudder.
If you want the Jerry-designed slide-up you'll need to reconfigure your stern for that. Others here have recommended a place called J-O Woodworks who can make you an OEM style wood rudder for slide-up.
If you spring for the Ruddercraft kick-up, I don't know, but others here have them & could tell you if the pintle location is custom per order (e.g. keep your gudgeons where they are) or some stock position that you might have to remount for.
If you happen to see this Jerry - I'm curious if you remember how many of the counterbalanced rudder 2-pintle M17s you made, way back in the olden days.
cheers, John
On 12/16/19 1:03 PM, David Bailey via montgomery_boats wrote: So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation? Sent from my iPhone
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I have an IdaRudder on my Monty 17. I bought the blue water version which has a wider chord than the lake only version. Heavier but stronger built. Yes, the leverage you have to deal with is as you said. I chose to lower the rudder and feather the main somewhat when cruising in shoal water. That way the rudder will tend to pop up only when the water is too thin and otherwise says down for better grip on the water. It is a matter of playing with what you have and being attuned to your boat at all times. On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 11:12 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
I have a two gudgeon with a tip up rudder. Works fine. If I was going to sail my 15 to Hawaii and be prepared for lying to with sea anchor and subsequent sternway, I’d beef it up. Not going to do that. I bought an Ida Sailor after market tip up for and old( pre motorsailor) MAC 25. Resulted in fantastic windward performance. The company has been bought up by another but maintains stock. Also makes windows. They make Monte aftermarket rudders too. The essential thing about tip ups is that you NEVER sail in high winds with the blade tipped up to shoal position, too much lever arm. If you had five gudgeon/ pintles you could still rip it out of the stern. If you didn’t shatter your tiller first. Ed Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2019, at 7:42 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I think you have the OEM gudgeons for that vintage. What number is your hull?
My '74 #38 "Pajarita" came with two gudgeons. There was no sign of them ever having been moved or of others having been in different locations. From a look at some photos when I first got her, location was about identical to yours. Also same as Gerry L's gudgeon location.
Mine also came with what I assume is the OEM rudder of that vintage, which is a two pintle fixed (no slide up, no kick up) rudder with a slight counterbalance leading edge under the keel, forward of the pivot axis. This is actually a more nimble rudder design - faster turning for less effort. But no sliding up for shallow spots/beaching/etc.
I knew I would have some use for a shallower draft option.
So, I bought a used, later model OEM 3-gudgeon slide up rudder from a list member, Jerry found an OEM gudgeon in his parts boxes and sold me that, and I remounted three gudgeons to fit the slide up rudder locations.
I've also remounted the pintles on the original OEM counterbalance rudder to match the new top and bottom gudgeon locations, so I can use either rudder.
If you want the Jerry-designed slide-up you'll need to reconfigure your stern for that. Others here have recommended a place called J-O Woodworks who can make you an OEM style wood rudder for slide-up.
If you spring for the Ruddercraft kick-up, I don't know, but others here have them & could tell you if the pintle location is custom per order (e.g. keep your gudgeons where they are) or some stock position that you might have to remount for.
If you happen to see this Jerry - I'm curious if you remember how many of the counterbalanced rudder 2-pintle M17s you made, way back in the olden days.
cheers, John
On 12/16/19 1:03 PM, David Bailey via montgomery_boats wrote: So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation? Sent from my iPhone
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
The nice thing about the slide-up is that you get the same helm feel/balance and still quite good maneuvering ability even when it's slid all the way up. With the sliding rudder all the way up on an M17, rudder draws about the same depth as the bottom of the stub keel with CB up. A few times I have done some maneuvering in shallow waters that way, under sail, and she's still fairly nimble. cheers, John On 12/17/19 9:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
I have an IdaRudder on my Monty 17. I bought the blue water version which has a wider chord than the lake only version. Heavier but stronger built. Yes, the leverage you have to deal with is as you said. I chose to lower the rudder and feather the main somewhat when cruising in shoal water. That way the rudder will tend to pop up only when the water is too thin and otherwise says down for better grip on the water. It is a matter of playing with what you have and being attuned to your boat at all times.
On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 11:12 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
I have a two gudgeon with a tip up rudder. Works fine. If I was going to sail my 15 to Hawaii and be prepared for lying to with sea anchor and subsequent sternway, I’d beef it up. Not going to do that. I bought an Ida Sailor after market tip up for and old( pre motorsailor) MAC 25. Resulted in fantastic windward performance. The company has been bought up by another but maintains stock. Also makes windows. They make Monte aftermarket rudders too. The essential thing about tip ups is that you NEVER sail in high winds with the blade tipped up to shoal position, too much lever arm. If you had five gudgeon/ pintles you could still rip it out of the stern. If you didn’t shatter your tiller first. Ed Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2019, at 7:42 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I think you have the OEM gudgeons for that vintage. What number is your hull?
My '74 #38 "Pajarita" came with two gudgeons. There was no sign of them ever having been moved or of others having been in different locations. From a look at some photos when I first got her, location was about identical to yours. Also same as Gerry L's gudgeon location.
Mine also came with what I assume is the OEM rudder of that vintage, which is a two pintle fixed (no slide up, no kick up) rudder with a slight counterbalance leading edge under the keel, forward of the pivot axis. This is actually a more nimble rudder design - faster turning for less effort. But no sliding up for shallow spots/beaching/etc.
I knew I would have some use for a shallower draft option.
So, I bought a used, later model OEM 3-gudgeon slide up rudder from a list member, Jerry found an OEM gudgeon in his parts boxes and sold me that, and I remounted three gudgeons to fit the slide up rudder locations.
I've also remounted the pintles on the original OEM counterbalance rudder to match the new top and bottom gudgeon locations, so I can use either rudder.
If you want the Jerry-designed slide-up you'll need to reconfigure your stern for that. Others here have recommended a place called J-O Woodworks who can make you an OEM style wood rudder for slide-up.
If you spring for the Ruddercraft kick-up, I don't know, but others here have them & could tell you if the pintle location is custom per order (e.g. keep your gudgeons where they are) or some stock position that you might have to remount for.
If you happen to see this Jerry - I'm curious if you remember how many of the counterbalanced rudder 2-pintle M17s you made, way back in the olden days.
cheers, John
On 12/16/19 1:03 PM, David Bailey via montgomery_boats wrote: So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation? Sent from my iPhone
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Agreed. I sail in VERY tidal waters and, thus, I sometimes sail with both the centerboard and the rudder up. It definitely compromises your ability to sail to windward, but it is still fun. I thought it would feel strange to have the tiller so high, but if you use a flexible tiller extension, you don't even notice it. On my boat, the raised rudder still draws slightly more than the stub keel so you still have to be careful. Someday, I might shorten the rudder a couple of inches so I can run aground on the local sand and mud with impunity. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of John Schinnerer Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2019 1:31 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Question The nice thing about the slide-up is that you get the same helm feel/balance and still quite good maneuvering ability even when it's slid all the way up. With the sliding rudder all the way up on an M17, rudder draws about the same depth as the bottom of the stub keel with CB up. A few times I have done some maneuvering in shallow waters that way, under sail, and she's still fairly nimble. cheers, John On 12/17/19 9:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
I have an IdaRudder on my Monty 17. I bought the blue water version which has a wider chord than the lake only version. Heavier but stronger built. Yes, the leverage you have to deal with is as you said. I chose to lower the rudder and feather the main somewhat when cruising in shoal water. That way the rudder will tend to pop up only when the water is too thin and otherwise says down for better grip on the water. It is a matter of playing with what you have and being attuned to your boat at all times.
On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 11:12 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
I have a two gudgeon with a tip up rudder. Works fine. If I was going to sail my 15 to Hawaii and be prepared for lying to with sea anchor and subsequent sternway, I’d beef it up. Not going to do that. I bought an Ida Sailor after market tip up for and old( pre motorsailor) MAC 25. Resulted in fantastic windward performance. The company has been bought up by another but maintains stock. Also makes windows. They make Monte aftermarket rudders too. The essential thing about tip ups is that you NEVER sail in high winds with the blade tipped up to shoal position, too much lever arm. If you had five gudgeon/ pintles you could still rip it out of the stern. If you didn’t shatter your tiller first. Ed Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2019, at 7:42 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I think you have the OEM gudgeons for that vintage. What number is your hull?
My '74 #38 "Pajarita" came with two gudgeons. There was no sign of them ever having been moved or of others having been in different locations. From a look at some photos when I first got her, location was about identical to yours. Also same as Gerry L's gudgeon location.
Mine also came with what I assume is the OEM rudder of that vintage, which is a two pintle fixed (no slide up, no kick up) rudder with a slight counterbalance leading edge under the keel, forward of the pivot axis. This is actually a more nimble rudder design - faster turning for less effort. But no sliding up for shallow spots/beaching/etc.
I knew I would have some use for a shallower draft option.
So, I bought a used, later model OEM 3-gudgeon slide up rudder from a list member, Jerry found an OEM gudgeon in his parts boxes and sold me that, and I remounted three gudgeons to fit the slide up rudder locations.
I've also remounted the pintles on the original OEM counterbalance rudder to match the new top and bottom gudgeon locations, so I can use either rudder.
If you want the Jerry-designed slide-up you'll need to reconfigure your stern for that. Others here have recommended a place called J-O Woodworks who can make you an OEM style wood rudder for slide-up.
If you spring for the Ruddercraft kick-up, I don't know, but others here have them & could tell you if the pintle location is custom per order (e.g. keep your gudgeons where they are) or some stock position that you might have to remount for.
If you happen to see this Jerry - I'm curious if you remember how many of the counterbalanced rudder 2-pintle M17s you made, way back in the olden days.
cheers, John
On 12/16/19 1:03 PM, David Bailey via montgomery_boats wrote: So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation? Sent from my iPhone
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On my M-23 "Robin's Nest", the rudder stuck about 9 - 10" below the centerboard trunk - a dangerous situation. The rudder could not be raised because of the boomkin. So I made an entirely new rudder out of a NACA0012 foil shape. I increased the chord and went from a submerged area of about 540 square inches to 720 square inches. Following the wisdom of the late Phil Bolger, I then installed a shaped rudder end plate made from sheet PVC. It is both screwed and epoxied to the flat rudder bottom The rudder was made out of scrap lumber, shaped accurately using a home-made template and then coated with barrier coat. It uses the existing rudder hardware. The rudder has vastly more grip than the original (cool looking) rudder. Rounding up is a rare experience now and the boat has considerably more low speed authority. Rudders with end-plates seem to generate a lot of controversy. I grew weary of the debate and just built one. YMMV Jerry Wolczanski "Robin's Nest" Flag Harbor St. Leonard, MD On Tue, 2019-12-17 at 14:01 -0500, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
Agreed. I sail in VERY tidal waters and, thus, I sometimes sail with both the centerboard and the rudder up. It definitely compromises your ability to sail to windward, but it is still fun. I thought it would feel strange to have the tiller so high, but if you use a flexible tiller extension, you don't even notice it. On my boat, the raised rudder still draws slightly more than the stub keel so you still have to be careful. Someday, I might shorten the rudder a couple of inches so I can run aground on the local sand and mud with impunity.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com
On Behalf Of John Schinnerer Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2019 1:31 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Question
The nice thing about the slide-up is that you get the same helm feel/balance and still quite good maneuvering ability even when it's slid all the way up. With the sliding rudder all the way up on an M17, rudder draws about the same depth as the bottom of the stub keel with CB up. A few times I have done some maneuvering in shallow waters that way, under sail, and she's still fairly nimble.
cheers, John
On 12/17/19 9:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
I have an IdaRudder on my Monty 17. I bought the blue water version which has a wider chord than the lake only version. Heavier but stronger built. Yes, the leverage you have to deal with is as you said. I chose to lower the rudder and feather the main somewhat when cruising in shoal water. That way the rudder will tend to pop up only when the water is too thin and otherwise says down for better grip on the water. It is a matter of playing with what you have and being attuned to your boat at all times.
On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 11:12 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
I have a two gudgeon with a tip up rudder. Works fine. If I was going to sail my 15 to Hawaii and be prepared for lying to with sea anchor and subsequent sternway, I’d beef it up. Not going to do that. I bought an Ida Sailor after market tip up for and old( pre motorsailor) MAC 25. Resulted in fantastic windward performance. The company has been bought up by another but maintains stock. Also makes windows. They make Monte aftermarket rudders too. The essential thing about tip ups is that you NEVER sail in high winds with the blade tipped up to shoal position, too much lever arm. If you had five gudgeon/ pintles you could still rip it out of the stern. If you didn’t shatter your tiller first. Ed Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2019, at 7:42 PM, John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net>
wrote:
I think you have the OEM gudgeons for that vintage. What number is your
hull?
My '74 #38 "Pajarita" came with two gudgeons. There was no sign of them
ever having been moved or of others having been in different locations. From a look at some photos when I first got her, location was about identical to yours. Also same as Gerry L's gudgeon location.
Mine also came with what I assume is the OEM rudder of that vintage,
which is a two pintle fixed (no slide up, no kick up) rudder with a slight counterbalance leading edge under the keel, forward of the pivot axis.
This is actually a more nimble rudder design - faster turning for less
effort. But no sliding up for shallow spots/beaching/etc.
I knew I would have some use for a shallower draft option.
So, I bought a used, later model OEM 3-gudgeon slide up rudder from a
list member, Jerry found an OEM gudgeon in his parts boxes and sold me that, and I remounted three gudgeons to fit the slide up rudder locations.
I've also remounted the pintles on the original OEM counterbalance
rudder to match the new top and bottom gudgeon locations, so I can use either rudder.
If you want the Jerry-designed slide-up you'll need to reconfigure your
stern for that. Others here have recommended a place called J-O Woodworks who can make you an OEM style wood rudder for slide-up.
If you spring for the Ruddercraft kick-up, I don't know, but others here
have them & could tell you if the pintle location is custom per order (e.g. keep your gudgeons where they are) or some stock position that you might have to remount for.
If you happen to see this Jerry - I'm curious if you remember how many
of the counterbalanced rudder 2-pintle M17s you made, way back in the olden days.
cheers, John
On 12/16/19 1:03 PM, David Bailey via montgomery_boats wrote: So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle
strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation?
Sent from my iPhone
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
David, is this one of the Montgomeries that was in Stockton, MO? Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169 From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of David Bailey via montgomery_boats Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 3:03 PM To: Monty Email Group <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Rudder Question So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation? [cid:image001.png@01D5B4DE.1195FF80] Sent from my iPhone
No sir. This one has sat in a pasture outside of San Antonio for at least 15 years I was told Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 17, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com> wrote:
David, is this one of the Montgomeries that was in Stockton, MO?
Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169
From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of David Bailey via montgomery_boats Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 3:03 PM To: Monty Email Group <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Rudder Question
So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation?
<image001.png>
Sent from my iPhone
participants (10)
-
Dave Scobie -
David Bailey -
Edward Epifani -
Gerald Wolczanski -
Gerry Lempicki -
John Schinnerer -
Larry Yake -
swwheatley＠comcast.net -
Thomas Buzzi -
Thomas Howe