Hi all, Well, I got the lovely original slide-up rudder from Rick. He barely ever used it, long ago, so I need to ask here... How does it work exactly? I can't just plug it in, since I have to re-do my gudgeons (adjust spacing of the existing two, add one in middle). Does the rod slide in the gudgeons, rudder moving with rod? Or does the rudder slide on the rod, rod stays fixed in gudgeons? I thought it would be obvious but when I look at it, it's not. There's one pin hole at the very top; another at the very bottom, in the end of the rod where it has reduced diameter for about half an inch; and a third near the bottom, where a pin would logically go just above the bottom rudder gudgeon. I have a pic of the FD showing the three gudgeons on the transom, but only with a mast crutch in it. If anyone with the slide-up rudder can post a close-in picture showing their rudder setup in place that would be very helpful also (picture worth 1K words at least!). thanks, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
It seems to be the rudder gets pulled up with a line through it that is cleated on both sides to the boat. The rod would be in two gudgeons only then? Not sure but I've stared at it too..lol. I have the setup but no hole in the rudder. Jazz On Feb 12, 2016 12:02 AM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Hi all,
Well, I got the lovely original slide-up rudder from Rick. He barely ever used it, long ago, so I need to ask here...
How does it work exactly? I can't just plug it in, since I have to re-do my gudgeons (adjust spacing of the existing two, add one in middle).
Does the rod slide in the gudgeons, rudder moving with rod? Or does the rudder slide on the rod, rod stays fixed in gudgeons?
I thought it would be obvious but when I look at it, it's not. There's one pin hole at the very top; another at the very bottom, in the end of the rod where it has reduced diameter for about half an inch; and a third near the bottom, where a pin would logically go just above the bottom rudder gudgeon.
I have a pic of the FD showing the three gudgeons on the transom, but only with a mast crutch in it.
If anyone with the slide-up rudder can post a close-in picture showing their rudder setup in place that would be very helpful also (picture worth 1K words at least!).
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Jazzy 1. The rudder Rod is fixed and doesn't move. The bottom of the rod has a half inch diameter and steps up to 3/4 inch? (Check yours) the bottom Gudgeon has a half in hole instead of a 3/4 inch hole like the top two gudgeons. So looking at your three gudgeons the top one has a 3/4 inch hole. The middle gudgeon has a 3/4 inch hole. The bottom gudgeon has a 1/2 inch hole. The bottom Gudgeon is 1/2 inch so the rod won't slide down. The rod sits in that bottom hole because the end is machined with a 1/2 inch diameter and about an inch up, it's 3/4 inches in diameter. There should be a cotter pin hole on the bottom of your rod (with that 1/2 inch area) and the purpose is to slide the rod down from the top, making sure the 1/2 inch nipple goes thru that bottom Gudgeon and you place a cotter pin thru the rod to prevent the rod from moving UP. The ledge of 3/4 inch sitting on top of the bottom Gudgeon prevents the rod from going DOWN. So the rod is in place. Can't move up. Can't move down. On some of the older 3 pintle set ups I've seen a rudder rod without the 1/2 inch machined area. The rod is the same 3/4 diameter Along the entire length. These rods have a cotter pin hole above and a bit below the bottom Gudgeon. Just slide the rod thru the top two gudgeons and put a cotter pin in the upper of the two holes and slide the rod thru the bottom hole and the bottom cotter pin gets installed. A proper install will have the now fixed rod sticking UP past the TOP Gudgeon about two inches. (Or the height of the pintle) so when the rudder is Down all three pintles are engages on the Rod. When lifting (sliding up) the rudder, after going up about 2 inches, the pintle is Now Off the fixed rod. Now the rudder is only engaging the middle and bottom areas of the rod. That's why we need three pintles. Here's a photo. I would like to see a photo of your stern.
I'll go compare when I get back later today, and I'll send pics! Jazz On Feb 12, 2016 6:17 AM, "Bob Eeg" <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Jazzy 1. The rudder Rod is fixed and doesn't move. The bottom of the rod has a half inch diameter and steps up to 3/4 inch? (Check yours) the bottom Gudgeon has a half in hole instead of a 3/4 inch hole like the top two gudgeons. So looking at your three gudgeons the top one has a 3/4 inch hole. The middle gudgeon has a 3/4 inch hole. The bottom gudgeon has a 1/2 inch hole. The bottom Gudgeon is 1/2 inch so the rod won't slide down. The rod sits in that bottom hole because the end is machined with a 1/2 inch diameter and about an inch up, it's 3/4 inches in diameter. There should be a cotter pin hole on the bottom of your rod (with that 1/2 inch area) and the purpose is to slide the rod down from the top, making sure the 1/2 inch nipple goes thru that bottom Gudgeon and you place a cotter pin thru the rod to prevent the rod from moving UP. The ledge of 3/4 inch sitting on top of the bottom Gudgeon prevents the rod from going DOWN.
So the rod is in place. Can't move up. Can't move down. On some of the older 3 pintle set ups I've seen a rudder rod without the 1/2 inch machined area. The rod is the same 3/4 diameter Along the entire length. These rods have a cotter pin hole above and a bit below the bottom Gudgeon. Just slide the rod thru the top two gudgeons and put a cotter pin in the upper of the two holes and slide the rod thru the bottom hole and the bottom cotter pin gets installed.
A proper install will have the now fixed rod sticking UP past the TOP Gudgeon about two inches. (Or the height of the pintle) so when the rudder is Down all three pintles are engages on the Rod.
When lifting (sliding up) the rudder, after going up about 2 inches, the pintle is Now Off the fixed rod. Now the rudder is only engaging the middle and bottom areas of the rod. That's why we need three pintles.
Here's a photo. I would like to see a photo of your stern.
Nm your lack of caffeine! I want to know too... My rod is uniform in width but I did see 2 holes now that I looked for them. You'll see in the attached picture. I had been putting the rod down through the gudgeons with the rod flange at the top..is this wrong? Otherwise it would be scuba time to put the rod in from the bottom... attached are pics https://www.dropbox.com/s/t42b2xmd8g0g7zk/20160212_082910-1.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ub0lxzm6r3rj8r/20160212_082843.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xbnhjw2ictn1fo/20160212_082730.jpg?dl=0 On Feb 12, 2016 7:14 AM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll go compare when I get back later today, and I'll send pics! Jazz On Feb 12, 2016 6:17 AM, "Bob Eeg" <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Jazzy 1. The rudder Rod is fixed and doesn't move. The bottom of the rod has a half inch diameter and steps up to 3/4 inch? (Check yours) the bottom Gudgeon has a half in hole instead of a 3/4 inch hole like the top two gudgeons. So looking at your three gudgeons the top one has a 3/4 inch hole. The middle gudgeon has a 3/4 inch hole. The bottom gudgeon has a 1/2 inch hole. The bottom Gudgeon is 1/2 inch so the rod won't slide down. The rod sits in that bottom hole because the end is machined with a 1/2 inch diameter and about an inch up, it's 3/4 inches in diameter. There should be a cotter pin hole on the bottom of your rod (with that 1/2 inch area) and the purpose is to slide the rod down from the top, making sure the 1/2 inch nipple goes thru that bottom Gudgeon and you place a cotter pin thru the rod to prevent the rod from moving UP. The ledge of 3/4 inch sitting on top of the bottom Gudgeon prevents the rod from going DOWN.
So the rod is in place. Can't move up. Can't move down. On some of the older 3 pintle set ups I've seen a rudder rod without the 1/2 inch machined area. The rod is the same 3/4 diameter Along the entire length. These rods have a cotter pin hole above and a bit below the bottom Gudgeon. Just slide the rod thru the top two gudgeons and put a cotter pin in the upper of the two holes and slide the rod thru the bottom hole and the bottom cotter pin gets installed.
A proper install will have the now fixed rod sticking UP past the TOP Gudgeon about two inches. (Or the height of the pintle) so when the rudder is Down all three pintles are engages on the Rod.
When lifting (sliding up) the rudder, after going up about 2 inches, the pintle is Now Off the fixed rod. Now the rudder is only engaging the middle and bottom areas of the rod. That's why we need three pintles.
Here's a photo. I would like to see a photo of your stern.
that 'flange' at the top is odd as raising the rudder will put the rod out the the bottom gudgeon making it a PITA to lower the rudder if the rod isn't perfectly aligned (IMO). the rod on my '83 M17 SWEET PEA is, as yours, uniform width. (see picture attached) how i put the rod onto transom is to slide it through the top two gudgeons and rudder's pintles (order is rudder pintle, top transom gudgeon, rudder pintle, transom gudgeon). i then put in the top cotter hairpin (the top one of the two at the bottom) and slide the rod through the bottom gudgeon. i then install the bottom cotter hairpin (to keep the rod from lifting). (picture attached showing the bottom of SWEET PEA's rudder rod with two cotter hairpins installed.) -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
My rod is uniform in width but I did see 2 holes now that I looked for them. You'll see in the attached picture. I had been putting the rod down through the gudgeons with the rod flange at the top..is this wrong? Otherwise it would be scuba time to put the rod in from the bottom... attached are pics
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t42b2xmd8g0g7zk/20160212_082910-1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ub0lxzm6r3rj8r/20160212_082843.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xbnhjw2ictn1fo/20160212_082730.jpg?dl=0
The disc welded to the top of your pintle rod is not o.e. As Bob Eeg said, with the o.e. arrangement, the pintle rod remains fixed in the 3 transom mounted gudgeons, and the rudder mounted gudgeons slide up and down on the rod. With your arrangement, the rudder gudgeons would remain fixed relative to the rod and the rod would slide up and down in the transom gudgeons. With the rudder raised, the rod would only be held by the upper 2 transom gudgeons. There is some merit to this modification because the o.e. arrangement only works if the rod is perfectly straight and the rudder gudgeons are perfectly aligned with the rod. Your arrangement would be somewhat more tolerant of imperfection. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 11:39:47 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Slide up rudder - mounting & setup Nm your lack of caffeine! I want to know too... My rod is uniform in width but I did see 2 holes now that I looked for them. You'll see in the attached picture. I had been putting the rod down through the gudgeons with the rod flange at the top..is this wrong? Otherwise it would be scuba time to put the rod in from the bottom... attached are pics https://www.dropbox.com/s/t42b2xmd8g0g7zk/20160212_082910-1.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ub0lxzm6r3rj8r/20160212_082843.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xbnhjw2ictn1fo/20160212_082730.jpg?dl=0 On Feb 12, 2016 7:14 AM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll go compare when I get back later today, and I'll send pics! Jazz On Feb 12, 2016 6:17 AM, "Bob Eeg" <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Jazzy 1. The rudder Rod is fixed and doesn't move. The bottom of the rod has a half inch diameter and steps up to 3/4 inch? (Check yours) the bottom Gudgeon has a half in hole instead of a 3/4 inch hole like the top two gudgeons. So looking at your three gudgeons the top one has a 3/4 inch hole. The middle gudgeon has a 3/4 inch hole. The bottom gudgeon has a 1/2 inch hole. The bottom Gudgeon is 1/2 inch so the rod won't slide down. The rod sits in that bottom hole because the end is machined with a 1/2 inch diameter and about an inch up, it's 3/4 inches in diameter. There should be a cotter pin hole on the bottom of your rod (with that 1/2 inch area) and the purpose is to slide the rod down from the top, making sure the 1/2 inch nipple goes thru that bottom Gudgeon and you place a cotter pin thru the rod to prevent the rod from moving UP. The ledge of 3/4 inch sitting on top of the bottom Gudgeon prevents the rod from going DOWN.
So the rod is in place. Can't move up. Can't move down. On some of the older 3 pintle set ups I've seen a rudder rod without the 1/2 inch machined area. The rod is the same 3/4 diameter Along the entire length. These rods have a cotter pin hole above and a bit below the bottom Gudgeon. Just slide the rod thru the top two gudgeons and put a cotter pin in the upper of the two holes and slide the rod thru the bottom hole and the bottom cotter pin gets installed.
A proper install will have the now fixed rod sticking UP past the TOP Gudgeon about two inches. (Or the height of the pintle) so when the rudder is Down all three pintles are engages on the Rod.
When lifting (sliding up) the rudder, after going up about 2 inches, the pintle is Now Off the fixed rod. Now the rudder is only engaging the middle and bottom areas of the rod. That's why we need three pintles.
Here's a photo. I would like to see a photo of your stern.
Thanks all, that helps clarify for me how it does, and can, work. Pics very helpful. Interesting about the disc on top of yours Jazz. Mine has the turned-down diameter at the bottom half inch or so, to fit the smaller pintle hole. And, two cotter pin holes down there - one at the bottom of the turned-down part, and one up a bit above that on the full diameter part. Like Dave's picture, except for the reduced diameter bit. It also has a cotter pin hole at the very top, would be above the top rudder gudgeon. So looks like mine is set up to be done either way - rod slides in gudgeons, or, rudder slides on rod. Just depends on which pins are used and not used. cheers, John S. On 02/12/2016 10:25 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
The disc welded to the top of your pintle rod is not o.e. As Bob Eeg said, with the o.e. arrangement, the pintle rod remains fixed in the 3 transom mounted gudgeons, and the rudder mounted gudgeons slide up and down on the rod. With your arrangement, the rudder gudgeons would remain fixed relative to the rod and the rod would slide up and down in the transom gudgeons. With the rudder raised, the rod would only be held by the upper 2 transom gudgeons. There is some merit to this modification because the o.e. arrangement only works if the rod is perfectly straight and the rudder gudgeons are perfectly aligned with the rod. Your arrangement would be somewhat more tolerant of imperfection.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 11:39:47 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Slide up rudder - mounting & setup
Nm your lack of caffeine! I want to know too... My rod is uniform in width but I did see 2 holes now that I looked for them. You'll see in the attached picture. I had been putting the rod down through the gudgeons with the rod flange at the top..is this wrong? Otherwise it would be scuba time to put the rod in from the bottom... attached are pics
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t42b2xmd8g0g7zk/20160212_082910-1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ub0lxzm6r3rj8r/20160212_082843.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xbnhjw2ictn1fo/20160212_082730.jpg?dl=0 On Feb 12, 2016 7:14 AM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll go compare when I get back later today, and I'll send pics! Jazz On Feb 12, 2016 6:17 AM, "Bob Eeg" <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Jazzy 1. The rudder Rod is fixed and doesn't move. The bottom of the rod has a half inch diameter and steps up to 3/4 inch? (Check yours) the bottom Gudgeon has a half in hole instead of a 3/4 inch hole like the top two gudgeons. So looking at your three gudgeons the top one has a 3/4 inch hole. The middle gudgeon has a 3/4 inch hole. The bottom gudgeon has a 1/2 inch hole. The bottom Gudgeon is 1/2 inch so the rod won't slide down. The rod sits in that bottom hole because the end is machined with a 1/2 inch diameter and about an inch up, it's 3/4 inches in diameter. There should be a cotter pin hole on the bottom of your rod (with that 1/2 inch area) and the purpose is to slide the rod down from the top, making sure the 1/2 inch nipple goes thru that bottom Gudgeon and you place a cotter pin thru the rod to prevent the rod from moving UP. The ledge of 3/4 inch sitting on top of the bottom Gudgeon prevents the rod from going DOWN.
So the rod is in place. Can't move up. Can't move down. On some of the older 3 pintle set ups I've seen a rudder rod without the 1/2 inch machined area. The rod is the same 3/4 diameter Along the entire length. These rods have a cotter pin hole above and a bit below the bottom Gudgeon. Just slide the rod thru the top two gudgeons and put a cotter pin in the upper of the two holes and slide the rod thru the bottom hole and the bottom cotter pin gets installed.
A proper install will have the now fixed rod sticking UP past the TOP Gudgeon about two inches. (Or the height of the pintle) so when the rudder is Down all three pintles are engages on the Rod.
When lifting (sliding up) the rudder, after going up about 2 inches, the pintle is Now Off the fixed rod. Now the rudder is only engaging the middle and bottom areas of the rod. That's why we need three pintles.
Here's a photo. I would like to see a photo of your stern.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Interesting food for though... It's seems it'll work either way, just have to make the hole on the rudder to pull it up. Once the rod is in the top 2 gudgeons, it's pretty easy to drop it into the third. I put the rudder on in the water when I took it out and it wasn't a big deal to line up. What a genius little mechanism, now to make it work and not bone it all up..hahaha Jazz On Feb 12, 2016 10:26 AM, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
The disc welded to the top of your pintle rod is not o.e. As Bob Eeg said, with the o.e. arrangement, the pintle rod remains fixed in the 3 transom mounted gudgeons, and the rudder mounted gudgeons slide up and down on the rod. With your arrangement, the rudder gudgeons would remain fixed relative to the rod and the rod would slide up and down in the transom gudgeons. With the rudder raised, the rod would only be held by the upper 2 transom gudgeons. There is some merit to this modification because the o.e. arrangement only works if the rod is perfectly straight and the rudder gudgeons are perfectly aligned with the rod. Your arrangement would be somewhat more tolerant of imperfection.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 11:39:47 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Slide up rudder - mounting & setup
Nm your lack of caffeine! I want to know too... My rod is uniform in width but I did see 2 holes now that I looked for them. You'll see in the attached picture. I had been putting the rod down through the gudgeons with the rod flange at the top..is this wrong? Otherwise it would be scuba time to put the rod in from the bottom... attached are pics
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t42b2xmd8g0g7zk/20160212_082910-1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ub0lxzm6r3rj8r/20160212_082843.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xbnhjw2ictn1fo/20160212_082730.jpg?dl=0 On Feb 12, 2016 7:14 AM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll go compare when I get back later today, and I'll send pics! Jazz On Feb 12, 2016 6:17 AM, "Bob Eeg" <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Jazzy 1. The rudder Rod is fixed and doesn't move. The bottom of the rod has a half inch diameter and steps up to 3/4 inch? (Check yours) the bottom Gudgeon has a half in hole instead of a 3/4 inch hole like the top two gudgeons. So looking at your three gudgeons the top one has a 3/4 inch hole. The middle gudgeon has a 3/4 inch hole. The bottom gudgeon has a 1/2 inch hole. The bottom Gudgeon is 1/2 inch so the rod won't slide down. The rod sits in that bottom hole because the end is machined with a 1/2 inch diameter and about an inch up, it's 3/4 inches in diameter. There should be a cotter pin hole on the bottom of your rod (with that 1/2 inch area) and the purpose is to slide the rod down from the top, making sure the 1/2 inch nipple goes thru that bottom Gudgeon and you place a cotter pin thru the rod to prevent the rod from moving UP. The ledge of 3/4 inch sitting on top of the bottom Gudgeon prevents the rod from going DOWN.
So the rod is in place. Can't move up. Can't move down. On some of the older 3 pintle set ups I've seen a rudder rod without the 1/2 inch machined area. The rod is the same 3/4 diameter Along the entire length. These rods have a cotter pin hole above and a bit below the bottom Gudgeon. Just slide the rod thru the top two gudgeons and put a cotter pin in the upper of the two holes and slide the rod thru the bottom hole and the bottom cotter pin gets installed.
A proper install will have the now fixed rod sticking UP past the TOP Gudgeon about two inches. (Or the height of the pintle) so when the rudder is Down all three pintles are engages on the Rod.
When lifting (sliding up) the rudder, after going up about 2 inches, the pintle is Now Off the fixed rod. Now the rudder is only engaging the middle and bottom areas of the rod. That's why we need three pintles.
Here's a photo. I would like to see a photo of your stern.
participants (5)
-
Bob Eeg -
Dave Scobie -
Jazzy -
John Schinnerer -
swwheatley＠comcast.net