Re: M_Boats: trailering with rudder assembly in place M15
Daniel, A couple of observations - some gleaned from less than amusing experiences : DO NOT TRAIL your boat with the rudder in place unless you want : 1. the rudder GONE - bounced off, pivot bolt fell out -OOOPS - etc. 2.the blade ground to a nub - 'I thought I had it tied up ...' 3. the rudder gudgeons and pintles plus all other pieces of the rudder assembly to experience excess wear and tear they were never designed for. Think of driving down the road with a favorite violin strapped to the hood - Bad Form. If your "mast carrier" is attached to the rudder attached to the boat while riding down the highway banging on the transom - you have the 'Tear up The Transom Trifecta' lets leave the rudder attached (see #1,2,3 above AND add the weight of the 1/2 the rig and mast carrier to exacerbate the situation). Most 15 trailers are sprung a bit stiff for the actual load as it is from what I have experienced. I am one opinionated Full of BS ol guy - but I have seen MANY ugly things happen to boats whilst trailered because someone was not aware of the consequences. - When I was in the business - it made me a living repairing and selling "lost/damaged parts" - I didn't like making a living at other peoples misfortune - so a word of caution. PS I bet we don't know that the rudder is damaged or GONE til we arrive at the beautiful destination ready to have a fun day of NOT sailing with the family or friends ! 'I didn't see it fall off the boat.....' - it does happen - why risk it. Jerry's wood (Royce's) rudders are excellent - better than a heavy plastic one. See paragraph above 'one opinionated.... ' Good luck with your Old Wood Rudder Blade it is a winner! - BTW- I have stalled all my rudders, on the 7-11,15,17 and all the non M-Boats I have owned too - EVERY one of them! G - Full of It - O M-17 #316 -Nurse I need my meds!
No, I have no plan to trail the boat with the rudder in place. I simply mean that when I arrive at my destination, I can put the rudder on while rigging the boat out of the water, and then drop the boat in the water. Right now I have to put the boat in the water, and wrestle the very heavy rudder through the small space between the boarding ladder, rail, motor mount, and onto the gudgeons. Tough to do. But with the swapped out wood original, it will stay in the horizontal position quite well, and certainly long enough for me to back the trailer down the launch in order to float the boat off. No, I trail with everything inside the cabin or the trunk of the car! Daniel On May 14, 2011, at 9:44 PM, GILASAILR@aol.com wrote:
Daniel,
A couple of observations - some gleaned from less than amusing experiences :
DO NOT TRAIL your boat with the rudder in place unless you want :
1. the rudder GONE - bounced off, pivot bolt fell out -OOOPS - etc.
2.the blade ground to a nub - 'I thought I had it tied up ...'
3. the rudder gudgeons and pintles plus all other pieces of the rudder assembly to experience excess wear and tear they were never designed for.
Think of driving down the road with a favorite violin strapped to the hood - Bad Form.
If your "mast carrier" is attached to the rudder attached to the boat while riding down the highway banging on the transom - you have the 'Tear up The Transom Trifecta' lets leave the rudder attached (see #1,2,3 above AND add the weight of the 1/2 the rig and mast carrier to exacerbate the situation). Most 15 trailers are sprung a bit stiff for the actual load as it is from what I have experienced.
I am one opinionated Full of BS ol guy - but I have seen MANY ugly things happen to boats whilst trailered because someone was not aware of the consequences. - When I was in the business - it made me a living repairing and selling "lost/damaged parts" - I didn't like making a living at other peoples misfortune - so a word of caution.
PS I bet we don't know that the rudder is damaged or GONE til we arrive at the beautiful destination ready to have a fun day of NOT sailing with the family or friends ! 'I didn't see it fall off the boat.....' - it does happen - why risk it.
Jerry's wood (Royce's) rudders are excellent - better than a heavy plastic one. See paragraph above 'one opinionated.... '
Good luck with your Old Wood Rudder Blade it is a winner! - BTW- I have stalled all my rudders, on the 7-11,15,17 and all the non M-Boats I have owned too - EVERY one of them!
G - Full of It - O M-17 #316 -Nurse I need my meds! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
Daniel.....once you change back to the normal lightweight wood blade you can install the rudder and fold it back before backing down the ramp. If it won't stay in the Folded Aft position it's because the Bungee Cord is weak. You can get new bungee material at Port Supply or even Home Depot. As for the 'Flat' on the backside of rudders; this is old news from the 1960s. Even Hobie Cat mentioned vibrating blades and how to cure them several decades ago. http://www.hobiecat.com/support/articles/archive/?src=http://2010.archive.ho... The old Vagabond 14 (later Holder and Hobie built) had the typical folding rudder that we have today on later built M_15. The only thing that has improved is the Bungee Material. Bob www.montgomeryboats.com (949) 489-8227
From: danielgrich@gmail.com Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:49:15 -0700 To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: trailering with rudder assembly in place M15
No, I have no plan to trail the boat with the rudder in place. I simply mean that when I arrive at my destination, I can put the rudder on while rigging the boat out of the water, and then drop the boat in the water. Right now I have to put the boat in the water, and wrestle the very heavy rudder through the small space between the boarding ladder, rail, motor mount, and onto the gudgeons. Tough to do. But with the swapped out wood original, it will stay in the horizontal position quite well, and certainly long enough for me to back the trailer down the launch in order to float the boat off. No, I trail with everything inside the cabin or the trunk of the car!
Daniel On May 14, 2011, at 9:44 PM, GILASAILR@aol.com wrote:
Daniel,
A couple of observations - some gleaned from less than amusing experiences :
DO NOT TRAIL your boat with the rudder in place unless you want :
1. the rudder GONE - bounced off, pivot bolt fell out -OOOPS - etc.
2.the blade ground to a nub - 'I thought I had it tied up ...'
3. the rudder gudgeons and pintles plus all other pieces of the rudder assembly to experience excess wear and tear they were never designed for.
Think of driving down the road with a favorite violin strapped to the hood - Bad Form.
If your "mast carrier" is attached to the rudder attached to the boat while riding down the highway banging on the transom - you have the 'Tear up The Transom Trifecta' lets leave the rudder attached (see #1,2,3 above AND add the weight of the 1/2 the rig and mast carrier to exacerbate the situation). Most 15 trailers are sprung a bit stiff for the actual load as it is from what I have experienced.
I am one opinionated Full of BS ol guy - but I have seen MANY ugly things happen to boats whilst trailered because someone was not aware of the consequences. - When I was in the business - it made me a living repairing and selling "lost/damaged parts" - I didn't like making a living at other peoples misfortune - so a word of caution.
PS I bet we don't know that the rudder is damaged or GONE til we arrive at the beautiful destination ready to have a fun day of NOT sailing with the family or friends ! 'I didn't see it fall off the boat.....' - it does happen - why risk it.
Jerry's wood (Royce's) rudders are excellent - better than a heavy plastic one. See paragraph above 'one opinionated.... '
Good luck with your Old Wood Rudder Blade it is a winner! - BTW- I have stalled all my rudders, on the 7-11,15,17 and all the non M-Boats I have owned too - EVERY one of them!
G - Full of It - O M-17 #316 -Nurse I need my meds! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
Good info, Bob. Thanks! I had a Vagabond 14 before my M15. Same mechanism for the rudder. Thought it seemed familiar! The Vagabond 14 is a really good design. I loved that boat. It looks like my rudder will stay folded in the up position for backing. The bungee seems strong at present. My Vagabond would get a musical humming sound at certain speeds. Wasn't sure where it was coming from. Must have been the blade! Interesting. Daniel On May 15, 2011, at 7:57 AM, Bob Eeg wrote:
Daniel.....once you change back to the normal lightweight wood blade you can install the rudder and fold it back before backing down the ramp.
If it won't stay in the Folded Aft position it's because the Bungee Cord is weak. You can get new bungee material at Port Supply or even Home Depot.
As for the 'Flat' on the backside of rudders; this is old news from the 1960s. Even Hobie Cat mentioned vibrating blades and how to cure them several decades ago.
http://www.hobiecat.com/support/articles/archive/?src=http://2010.archive.ho...
The old Vagabond 14 (later Holder and Hobie built) had the typical folding rudder that we have today on later built M_15.
The only thing that has improved is the Bungee Material.
Bob www.montgomeryboats.com
(949) 489-8227
From: danielgrich@gmail.com Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:49:15 -0700 To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: trailering with rudder assembly in place M15
No, I have no plan to trail the boat with the rudder in place. I simply mean that when I arrive at my destination, I can put the rudder on while rigging the boat out of the water, and then drop the boat in the water. Right now I have to put the boat in the water, and wrestle the very heavy rudder through the small space between the boarding ladder, rail, motor mount, and onto the gudgeons. Tough to do. But with the swapped out wood original, it will stay in the horizontal position quite well, and certainly long enough for me to back the trailer down the launch in order to float the boat off. No, I trail with everything inside the cabin or the trunk of the car!
Daniel On May 14, 2011, at 9:44 PM, GILASAILR@aol.com wrote:
Daniel,
A couple of observations - some gleaned from less than amusing experiences :
DO NOT TRAIL your boat with the rudder in place unless you want :
1. the rudder GONE - bounced off, pivot bolt fell out -OOOPS - etc.
2.the blade ground to a nub - 'I thought I had it tied up ...'
3. the rudder gudgeons and pintles plus all other pieces of the rudder assembly to experience excess wear and tear they were never designed for.
Think of driving down the road with a favorite violin strapped to the hood - Bad Form.
If your "mast carrier" is attached to the rudder attached to the boat while riding down the highway banging on the transom - you have the 'Tear up The Transom Trifecta' lets leave the rudder attached (see #1,2,3 above AND add the weight of the 1/2 the rig and mast carrier to exacerbate the situation). Most 15 trailers are sprung a bit stiff for the actual load as it is from what I have experienced.
I am one opinionated Full of BS ol guy - but I have seen MANY ugly things happen to boats whilst trailered because someone was not aware of the consequences. - When I was in the business - it made me a living repairing and selling "lost/damaged parts" - I didn't like making a living at other peoples misfortune - so a word of caution.
PS I bet we don't know that the rudder is damaged or GONE til we arrive at the beautiful destination ready to have a fun day of NOT sailing with the family or friends ! 'I didn't see it fall off the boat.....' - it does happen - why risk it.
Jerry's wood (Royce's) rudders are excellent - better than a heavy plastic one. See paragraph above 'one opinionated.... '
Good luck with your Old Wood Rudder Blade it is a winner! - BTW- I have stalled all my rudders, on the 7-11,15,17 and all the non M-Boats I have owned too - EVERY one of them!
G - Full of It - O M-17 #316 -Nurse I need my meds! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
I am waiting for a skilled wood worker with fiber glass skills to shape a prototype "whale fin with front knuckles" rudder on an M-15. What if it worked? -----Larry (still curious) Hughston / Sacramento M-15 Old 189 -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Rich Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2011 8:15 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: trailering with rudder assembly in place M15 Good info, Bob. Thanks! I had a Vagabond 14 before my M15. Same mechanism for the rudder. Thought it seemed familiar! The Vagabond 14 is a really good design. I loved that boat. It looks like my rudder will stay folded in the up position for backing. The bungee seems strong at present. My Vagabond would get a musical humming sound at certain speeds. Wasn't sure where it was coming from. Must have been the blade! Interesting. Daniel On May 15, 2011, at 7:57 AM, Bob Eeg wrote:
Daniel.....once you change back to the normal lightweight wood blade
you can install the rudder and fold it back before backing down the ramp.
If it won't stay in the Folded Aft position it's because the Bungee
Cord is weak. You can get new bungee material at Port Supply or even Home Depot.
As for the 'Flat' on the backside of rudders; this is old news from the 1960s. Even Hobie Cat mentioned vibrating blades and how to cure
them several decades ago.
http://www.hobiecat.com/support/articles/archive/?src=http://2010.arch ive.hobiecat.com/support/tech/hum.html
The old Vagabond 14 (later Holder and Hobie built) had the typical
folding rudder that we have today on later built M_15.
The only thing that has improved is the Bungee Material.
Bob www.montgomeryboats.com
(949) 489-8227
From: danielgrich@gmail.com Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:49:15 -0700 To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: trailering with rudder assembly in place M15
No, I have no plan to trail the boat with the rudder in place. I
simply mean that when I arrive at my destination, I can put the rudder on while rigging the boat out of the water, and then drop the boat in the water. Right now I have to put the boat in the water, and wrestle the very heavy rudder through the small space between the boarding ladder, rail, motor mount, and onto the gudgeons. Tough to do. But with the swapped out wood original, it will stay in the horizontal position quite well, and certainly long enough for me to back the trailer down the launch in order to float the boat off. No, I trail with everything inside the cabin or the trunk of the car!
Daniel On May 14, 2011, at 9:44 PM, GILASAILR@aol.com wrote:
Daniel,
A couple of observations - some gleaned from less than amusing experiences :
DO NOT TRAIL your boat with the rudder in place unless you want :
1. the rudder GONE - bounced off, pivot bolt fell out -OOOPS - etc.
2.the blade ground to a nub - 'I thought I had it tied up ...'
3. the rudder gudgeons and pintles plus all other pieces of the rudder assembly to experience excess wear and tear they were never
designed for.
Think of driving down the road with a favorite violin strapped to the hood - Bad Form.
If your "mast carrier" is attached to the rudder attached to the boat while riding down the highway banging on the transom - you have
the 'Tear up The Transom Trifecta' lets leave the rudder attached (see #1,2,3 above AND add the weight of the 1/2 the rig and mast carrier to exacerbate the situation). Most 15 trailers are sprung a bit stiff for the actual load as it is from what I have experienced.
I am one opinionated Full of BS ol guy - but I have seen MANY ugly things happen to boats whilst trailered because someone was not aware of the consequences. - When I was in the business - it made me
a living repairing and selling "lost/damaged parts" - I didn't like making a living at other peoples misfortune - so a word of caution.
PS I bet we don't know that the rudder is damaged or GONE til we arrive at the beautiful destination ready to have a fun day of NOT sailing with the family or friends ! 'I didn't see it fall off the boat.....' - it does happen - why risk it.
Jerry's wood (Royce's) rudders are excellent - better than a heavy plastic one. See paragraph above 'one opinionated.... '
Good luck with your Old Wood Rudder Blade it is a winner! - BTW- I have stalled all my rudders, on the 7-11,15,17 and all the non M-Boats I have owned too - EVERY one of them!
G - Full of It - O M-17 #316 -Nurse I need my meds! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boat s
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
talking with jerry the 'history' of the M15 rudder is as follows - the M15 rudder comes from Ron Holder and Jerry Montgomery co-developing hardware for the Vagabond 17 and M15, which were both being tooled at the same time. Jerry and Ron bought the material/parts together to reduce costs. Ron and Jerry developed the rudder with permission of two brothers in Florida that built a catamaran of about 25 feet called the Stiletto. the brother received permission to use the design from an English boat builder. the brothers had seen the design when attending the London Boat Show. the English boat builder had used the design, with permission, from another English boat builder/designer. Later Ron reduced the dimensions to work for the Vagabond 14. Ron then sold the 'Vagabonds' to Hobie and they became known at that time as the "Holders". :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 - SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage Marine - www.sagemarine.com --- On Sun, 5/15/11, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Daniel.....once you change back to the normal lightweight wood blade you can install the rudder and fold it back before backing down the ramp.
If it won't stay in the Folded Aft position it's because the Bungee Cord is weak. You can get new bungee material at Port Supply or even Home Depot.
As for the 'Flat' on the backside of rudders; this is old news from the 1960s. Even Hobie Cat mentioned vibrating blades and how to cure them several decades ago.
http://www.hobiecat.com/support/articles/archive/?src=http://2010.archive.ho...
The old Vagabond 14 (later Holder and Hobie built) had the typical folding rudder that we have today on later built M_15.
The only thing that has improved is the Bungee Material.
Bob www.montgomeryboats.com
(949) 489-8227
This must explain my taste in boats. Love the Holders, and love the Montgomerys. Who knew they were so related?! Daniel On May 15, 2011, at 9:07 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
talking with jerry the 'history' of the M15 rudder is as follows -
the M15 rudder comes from Ron Holder and Jerry Montgomery co-developing hardware for the Vagabond 17 and M15, which were both being tooled at the same time. Jerry and Ron bought the material/parts together to reduce costs.
Ron and Jerry developed the rudder with permission of two brothers in Florida that built a catamaran of about 25 feet called the Stiletto. the brother received permission to use the design from an English boat builder. the brothers had seen the design when attending the London Boat Show. the English boat builder had used the design, with permission, from another English boat builder/designer.
Later Ron reduced the dimensions to work for the Vagabond 14. Ron then sold the 'Vagabonds' to Hobie and they became known at that time as the "Holders".
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 - SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage Marine - www.sagemarine.com
--- On Sun, 5/15/11, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Daniel.....once you change back to the normal lightweight wood blade you can install the rudder and fold it back before backing down the ramp.
If it won't stay in the Folded Aft position it's because the Bungee Cord is weak. You can get new bungee material at Port Supply or even Home Depot.
As for the 'Flat' on the backside of rudders; this is old news from the 1960s. Even Hobie Cat mentioned vibrating blades and how to cure them several decades ago.
http://www.hobiecat.com/support/articles/archive/?src=http://2010.archive.ho...
The old Vagabond 14 (later Holder and Hobie built) had the typical folding rudder that we have today on later built M_15.
The only thing that has improved is the Bungee Material.
Bob www.montgomeryboats.com
(949) 489-8227
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
participants (5)
-
Bob Eeg -
Daniel Rich -
GILASAILR＠aol.com -
Hughston, Larry＠DGS -
W David Scobie