Ron, You sail a 15', or a 17'? --Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "ron and cathryn goodspeed" <rcgoodspeed@mac.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 8:23 PM Subject: range of stability Check out www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html You can enter the numbers for your boat- I included an extra 450 pounds for crew and gear- and found the numbers for comfort and capsize pretty scary! Have to have an iron stomach and lots of bravery if heading to Hawaii! ron

Ron How early of a model is Hula Pie? I had an M-17 which was a '77 and had a swing keel rather than a combo c/b keel. With such an arrangement, I could take the boat right up to shore, a lot like a Catalina or other swing keel boat. Lenny

Do you think your '77 was original or modified? Jerry wrote in his history that a few fixed keel boats were built but I don't recall hearing about a swing keel model. Ron It was an original...........I've seen one with the fixed keel but have not come across another swing keel version. Lenny

I'm curious to know, did your swing keel "bang" in the trunk at anchor or in stays? My first boat was a Newport 17' with a genuine swing keel, as you describe. Although the Newport had a decent v-birth in its cuddy-cabin, sleeping aboard was out of the question, because the banging keel (whether retracted or deployed, made no difference) was like having a jack-hammer next to your head. When we asked around to find a solution, we were told that the banging problem was something a swing-keel boat owner learns to deal with (I can't imagine how). I spent the first night in my M17 with trepidation, nervous that the keel/centerboard design may have the same banging problem: Nope. The one time my M17's centerboard made any noise at all, it was because it wasn't retracted all the way. I love the "beachable" aspect of a swing-keel boat, but I've read that it's a more trouble-prone design and the noise problem is unacceptable. Now, I suppose that if we could have beached the Newport on every overnight, the noise would not have been an issue, but she sailed like a brick, board up, or down, so we sold her after 1 1/2 seasons. I want to make very clear that I'm describing the Newport 17', not the 16': I understand the 16' is a very different boat. For performance, strength, trailerability and thin-water capability, it seems the keel/centerboard is the best compromise. I'm not convinced that the Precision/Catalina (Capri)/Hake "fixed wing keel" designs perform as well as their manufacturers claim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "L Smith" <lsmith56@cox.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 2:25 PM Subject: range of stability Ron How early of a model is Hula Pie? I had an M-17 which was a '77 and had a swing keel rather than a combo c/b keel. With such an arrangement, I could take the boat right up to shore, a lot like a Catalina or other swing keel boat. Lenny

At 05:52 PM 12/22/02 -0700, you wrote:

I'm curious to know, did your swing keel "bang" in the trunk at anchor or in stays

That was the case in my brother's MacGregor 26. Up or down, the swing keel knocked in the trunk all night. I always thought one could drop it a little, loop a line around it and snare it from the deck, and winch it against one side just snug enough to keep it still, but never tried it. My brother got used to it, but I never slept too well on that boat. Doug ------------------------------------------ Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" Montgomery Sailboats Owners Group Web site: http://msog.org Email: mailto:msog@msog.org

That sounds like a very innovative approach: I'd be interested if Jerry would weigh in on how many swing-keel 17's he built and why he discontinued them. Is your old 17' still sailing? My last sail of the season was on a Sandpiper 565, which has a dagger board raised and lowered with a screw. The dagger board isn't prone to banging because it's seated firmly in its trunk and can be retracted completely. The problem with the design is that the boat won't sail when the board is retracted and it takes 95 (at least, I think that's what the owner's manual said) very difficult cranks to lower it completely. Imagine this scenario (I lived it): You ground close to shore. No problem, because you have a retractable dagger board and a beachable boat. But, as you retract the board to free the boat, you lose steerage, so the wind that could take you away from the shore if the board were down simply pushes you further into the shallows. So (okay, this is embarrassing, but I'll continue) someone jumps out of the boat to push you offshore (yeah, we were in that far) and point the bow in the right direction. However, even though you now have the momentum to escape, you can't steer because the board is up, so you have someone at the tiller screaming that the board needs to be dropped while you furiously try to crank it down in the few seconds you have before you ground again. It turned out alright, but it was a quick lesson on the shortcomings of a screw-driven dagger board. Okay, I can't beach my M17' like the Sandpiper, but I've beach-camped, anchoring my Monty in shin-deep water (and I'm only 5' tall) and schlepping my gear ashore. It seems, in my limited experience, that the keel/centerboard arrangement is the best option in the trailer-sailor's world of compromises. ----- Original Message ----- From: "L Smith" <lsmith56@cox.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 7:52 PM Subject: Genuine Swing Keel I'm curious to know, did your swing keel "bang" in the trunk at anchor or in stays Not that I can remember.........The keel was raised or lowered into position using a "worm gear" which was operated by a crank on the aft end of the trunk. Since the weight of the keel was supported by the pivot pin, the worm gear would hold the keel in any position desired. It also kept the keel from swinging fore and aft when sailing in rough water. It was much easier to operate than the conventional winch and cable systems used on a lot of other boats..........and no fretting about the line slipping out of your hand and dropping the board. It helped fine tune the trim on the boat as well............ Lenny

It could have been a vision....brought on by too much Tequila....but I seem to recall Jerry once mentioned that he had made a few full keeled 17's. Whatever happened to those? Howard On 12/23/02 6:37 PM, "L Smith" <lsmith56@cox.net> wrote:

That sounds like a very innovative approach: I'd be interested if Jerry would weigh in on how many swing-keel 17's he built and why he discontinued them. Is your old 17' still sailing?

It may have been the only one.......I think Jerry was a bit of a Hippie, y'know........ <grin>...........yes, the boat is still in Phoenix , although the new owner has a larger boat now and doesn't sail the 17 as much.

Lenny

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Hello Lenny' Of course I was kidding about heading to Hawaii altho I think an M15 did it. The question about "ultimate stability" would include a 180 degree capsize. The calculator I mentioned came up with a Capsize Rating for an M17 with a displacement of 2050 [1600 + 450 crew and gear] of 2.31 and Comfort of 13.66- not the kind of numbers one would want in really rough conditions. Our Montys are quite beamy and the cast iron board has no preventer to keep the board from falling back into the trunk in a full capsize. You are absolutely correct that they are coastal cruisers and great ones at that. The calculator even rated the M17 as a cruiser/ racer! We believe "reef early and often" and don't get into a dangerous situation but we have had the rail under on our local mountain lake when a gust came swirling around one of the surrounding hills. The biggest concern I have is if she did a 180 could we get her back over? We have never come close to a knockdown when others were coming close including Catalinas and Santanas. When the going gets rough we'll reef and install the hatch boards. Respectfully, Ron Goodspeed

Ahoy Mates! The subject of yacht stability and the greater subject of overall yacht design is really fascinating as it a weighting of compromises to bring forth a boat for a specific use, ie. light displacement ,wide beam and low wetted area may be fast but will it be seaworthy? A full keel will track well but is slow to tack and may trip the boat while surfing down a big wave. A couple of websites that I have enjoyed are: "www.tedbrewer.com" and "www.johnsboatstuff.com". Ted Brewer came up with the idea of " Motion Comfort" numbers and points out the extreme range of numbers possible between dinghys and full keel cruisers and that these comparisons are really only valid between boats of similar size. Holtrup has applied "fuzzy logic" to sorting which boats are "blue water boats" based on the designs of noted naval architects, Lyle Hess included, and then comparing those numbers to a range of affordable older boats. The "Capsize Ratio" came about after the disasterous Fastnet race,when many lives were lost, in an effort to improve safety and eliminate fast but unstable ocean racers. For those who find this subject interesting, I hope you enjoy these websites. I've found the stability solution for "hula pie", I'm giving Cat a Trapeze Harness for Christmas, ha ha. Boy will she be surprised! Ron Goodspeed