From: Robert Hall Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 8:56 PM To: Jerry Montgomery Subject: Questions Hi Jerry. I enjoy reading e mails from you on the Monty site and learn a lot from them and those of other owners . I have two questions which probably only you can answer. First my M 15 was built in 1981 and has a 19 ft mast. You have given the rig dimensions on the owners site as I 15.33 J 4.58 P 16.83 and E 7.83 for the M-15. Do those measurements hold true for a boat with a 19 ft mast which I believe is slightly shorter than used on your later boats? Next my boat takes on water into that box- like space approximately under the thwart in the very bottom of the boat. I suppose the space holds about a gallon of water and it requires pumping out about every 10 days. The water accumulates faster if the boat has been heeling a lot. The top appears to be well sealed to the hull along the gunwales,no evidence of leaking there.. There is no sign of damage on the hull or keel and of course at 6 ft 2 in and 82 years of age there is no way I can get a look into that interior space.My boat is on the hard under a snow drift till April, but a younger,smaller, boat savvy friend and I will try again to discover the source of the leak come spring . Have you any advice on any techniques or tricks which we might employ to diagnose the problem ? Your advice will be much appreciated The leak poses little danger to those using the boat, but it is a bloody nuisance, particularly because if we can’t find the source we certainly cannot fix it. From a frustrated M –15 sailor. Have a good holiday season and all health in 2013. RTH. PS the M-15 has been a great boat for me and a source of great interest and admiration among the” big boat” people at my yacht club.
I think the masts were 19' on all the 15's that I made, but I can't speak for the present builder. I'm 99% sure that I never made a change. Looks like you're talking about water getting into the bilge. Since you say that there is no damage on the hull, including the bottom of the keel, I'd guess that it's coming in thru the top of the CB trunk and working down from there between the trunk and the trunk housing part of the hull liner. What is the year your 15 was made? On some of the very early boats (1981 or 2?) we had that problem and cut down the trunk cover a little so that I could visually inspect it while under construction. The problem was the glass bond between the trunk itself and the underside of the deck would have a void. After we cut down the top of the trunk cover a little I could see and feel around the drain bond. There's always the method of waiting for a warm, sunny day, filling the bilge with water and taking a cooler full of beer and stretch out below and see where the water comes out! jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Hall" <bert.hall@rogers.com> To: "Montgomery Owners" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:58 PM Subject: M_Boats: Fw: Questions From: Robert Hall Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 8:56 PM To: Jerry Montgomery Subject: Questions Hi Jerry. I enjoy reading e mails from you on the Monty site and learn a lot from them and those of other owners . I have two questions which probably only you can answer. First my M 15 was built in 1981 and has a 19 ft mast. You have given the rig dimensions on the owners site as I 15.33 J 4.58 P 16.83 and E 7.83 for the M-15. Do those measurements hold true for a boat with a 19 ft mast which I believe is slightly shorter than used on your later boats? Next my boat takes on water into that box- like space approximately under the thwart in the very bottom of the boat. I suppose the space holds about a gallon of water and it requires pumping out about every 10 days. The water accumulates faster if the boat has been heeling a lot. The top appears to be well sealed to the hull along the gunwales,no evidence of leaking there.. There is no sign of damage on the hull or keel and of course at 6 ft 2 in and 82 years of age there is no way I can get a look into that interior space.My boat is on the hard under a snow drift till April, but a younger,smaller, boat savvy friend and I will try again to discover the source of the leak come spring . Have you any advice on any techniques or tricks which we might employ to diagnose the problem ? Your advice will be much appreciated The leak poses little danger to those using the boat, but it is a bloody nuisance, particularly because if we can’t find the source we certainly cannot fix it. From a frustrated M –15 sailor. Have a good holiday season and all health in 2013. RTH. PS the M-15 has been a great boat for me and a source of great interest and admiration among the” big boat” people at my yacht club. -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 7580 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
Jerry: While you are on the subject of CB trunks, etc., can you recall at what level the steel ballast started on the early M17's? Did the pivot pin forward or stopper pin aft either one pass through the ballast? Also, I did you ever factory install a flushing marine head with holding tank on M17s? Howard M17, #278......built in 2/78 On Dec 20, 2012, at 12:39 PM, jerry montgomery wrote:
I think the masts were 19' on all the 15's that I made, but I can't speak for the present builder. I'm 99% sure that I never made a change.
Looks like you're talking about water getting into the bilge. Since you say that there is no damage on the hull, including the bottom of the keel, I'd guess that it's coming in thru the top of the CB trunk and working down from there between the trunk and the trunk housing part of the hull liner. What is the year your 15 was made? On some of the very early boats (1981 or 2?) we had that problem and cut down the trunk cover a little so that I could visually inspect it while under construction. The problem was the glass bond between the trunk itself and the underside of the deck would have a void. After we cut down the top of the trunk cover a little I could see and feel around the drain bond.
There's always the method of waiting for a warm, sunny day, filling the bilge with water and taking a cooler full of beer and stretch out below and see where the water comes out!
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Hall" <bert.hall@rogers.com> To: "Montgomery Owners" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:58 PM Subject: M_Boats: Fw: Questions
From: Robert Hall Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 8:56 PM To: Jerry Montgomery Subject: Questions
Hi Jerry. I enjoy reading e mails from you on the Monty site and learn a lot from them and those of other owners . I have two questions which probably only you can answer. First my M 15 was built in 1981 and has a 19 ft mast. You have given the rig dimensions on the owners site as I 15.33 J 4.58 P 16.83 and E 7.83 for the M-15. Do those measurements hold true for a boat with a 19 ft mast which I believe is slightly shorter than used on your later boats? Next my boat takes on water into that box- like space approximately under the thwart in the very bottom of the boat. I suppose the space holds about a gallon of water and it requires pumping out about every 10 days. The water accumulates faster if the boat has been heeling a lot. The top appears to be well sealed to the hull along the gunwales,no evidence of leaking there.. There is no sign of damage on the hull or keel and of course at 6 ft 2 in and 82 years of age there is no way I can get a look into that interior space.My boat is on the hard under a snow drift till April, but a younger,smaller, boat savvy friend and I will try again to discover the source of the leak come spring . Have you any advice on any techniques or tricks which we might employ to diagnose the problem ? Your advice will be much appreciated The leak poses little danger to those using the boat, but it is a bloody nuisance, particularly because if we can’t find the source we certainly cannot fix it. From a frustrated M –15 sailor. Have a good holiday season and all health in 2013. RTH. PS the M-15 has been a great boat for me and a source of great interest and admiration among the” big boat” people at my yacht club.
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jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 11:03 AM Subject: M_Boats: Questions Jerry: While you are on the subject of CB trunks, etc., can you recall at what level the steel ballast started on the early M17's? Did the pivot pin forward or stopper pin aft either one pass through the ballast? WITH STEEL BALLAST THE KEEL WAS TOTALLY FILLED UP EXCEPT FOR A SMALL BILGE AT THE VERY BACK. WE GLASSED IN A GLASS TUBE, ABOUT AN INCH IN DIAMETER, FOR THE PIVIT PIN, BUT THE KEEPER PIN AREA WAS FILLED WITH FILLER (FANCY THAT), THEN GLASSED OVER. nEITHER ARE IN CONTACT WITH STEEL. Also, I did you ever factory install a flushing marine head with holding tank on M17s? YES, IN THE VERY EARLY DAYS i HAD A DEALER IN MN THAT ORDERED AT LEAST A DOZEN BOATS A YEAR WITH MARINE HEADS AND PUMPOUT HOLDING TANKS. A REAL PAIN TO MAKE, AND A REAL PAIN TO USE, I THINK, BUT THAT'S WHAT WAS LEGAL IN THAT PLACE AT THAT TIME. SOMEONE TOLD ME THAT MOST OF THE BUYERS TOOK OUT THE HEADS AND REPLACED THEM WITH BUCKETS OR PORTAPOTTIES WHEN THE LAW CHANGED.. Howard M17, #278......built in 2/78 On Dec 20, 2012, at 12:39 PM, jerry montgomery wrote:
I think the masts were 19' on all the 15's that I made, but I can't speak for the present builder. I'm 99% sure that I never made a change.
Looks like you're talking about water getting into the bilge. Since you say that there is no damage on the hull, including the bottom of the keel, I'd guess that it's coming in thru the top of the CB trunk and working down from there between the trunk and the trunk housing part of the hull liner. What is the year your 15 was made? On some of the very early boats (1981 or 2?) we had that problem and cut down the trunk cover a little so that I could visually inspect it while under construction. The problem was the glass bond between the trunk itself and the underside of the deck would have a void. After we cut down the top of the trunk cover a little I could see and feel around the drain bond.
There's always the method of waiting for a warm, sunny day, filling the bilge with water and taking a cooler full of beer and stretch out below and see where the water comes out!
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Hall" <bert.hall@rogers.com> To: "Montgomery Owners" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:58 PM Subject: M_Boats: Fw: Questions
From: Robert Hall Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 8:56 PM To: Jerry Montgomery Subject: Questions
Hi Jerry. I enjoy reading e mails from you on the Monty site and learn a lot from them and those of other owners . I have two questions which probably only you can answer. First my M 15 was built in 1981 and has a 19 ft mast. You have given the rig dimensions on the owners site as I 15.33 J 4.58 P 16.83 and E 7.83 for the M-15. Do those measurements hold true for a boat with a 19 ft mast which I believe is slightly shorter than used on your later boats? Next my boat takes on water into that box- like space approximately under the thwart in the very bottom of the boat. I suppose the space holds about a gallon of water and it requires pumping out about every 10 days. The water accumulates faster if the boat has been heeling a lot. The top appears to be well sealed to the hull along the gunwales,no evidence of leaking there.. There is no sign of damage on the hull or keel and of course at 6 ft 2 in and 82 years of age there is no way I can get a look into that interior space.My boat is on the hard under a snow drift till April, but a younger,smaller, boat savvy friend and I will try again to discover the source of the leak come spring . Have you any advice on any techniques or tricks which we might employ to diagnose the problem ? Your advice will be much appreciated The leak poses little danger to those using the boat, but it is a bloody nuisance, particularly because if we can’t find the source we certainly cannot fix it. From a frustrated M –15 sailor. Have a good holiday season and all health in 2013. RTH. PS the M-15 has been a great boat for me and a source of great interest and admiration among the” big boat” people at my yacht club.
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Hi Jerry, My boat is a 1981 model. Your reply was exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. In the spring I will start with the" fill the bilge with water and have a few beers procedure" and go on from there depending on the results. Thanks for taking time to answer my queries. Chances are they will benefit other Montgomery owners as well. Cheers all round! RTH -----Original Message----- From: jerry montgomery Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:39 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fw: Questions I think the masts were 19' on all the 15's that I made, but I can't speak for the present builder. I'm 99% sure that I never made a change. Looks like you're talking about water getting into the bilge. Since you say that there is no damage on the hull, including the bottom of the keel, I'd guess that it's coming in thru the top of the CB trunk and working down from there between the trunk and the trunk housing part of the hull liner. What is the year your 15 was made? On some of the very early boats (1981 or 2?) we had that problem and cut down the trunk cover a little so that I could visually inspect it while under construction. The problem was the glass bond between the trunk itself and the underside of the deck would have a void. After we cut down the top of the trunk cover a little I could see and feel around the drain bond. There's always the method of waiting for a warm, sunny day, filling the bilge with water and taking a cooler full of beer and stretch out below and see where the water comes out! jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Hall" <bert.hall@rogers.com> To: "Montgomery Owners" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:58 PM Subject: M_Boats: Fw: Questions From: Robert Hall Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 8:56 PM To: Jerry Montgomery Subject: Questions Hi Jerry. I enjoy reading e mails from you on the Monty site and learn a lot from them and those of other owners . I have two questions which probably only you can answer. First my M 15 was built in 1981 and has a 19 ft mast. You have given the rig dimensions on the owners site as I 15.33 J 4.58 P 16.83 and E 7.83 for the M-15. Do those measurements hold true for a boat with a 19 ft mast which I believe is slightly shorter than used on your later boats? Next my boat takes on water into that box- like space approximately under the thwart in the very bottom of the boat. I suppose the space holds about a gallon of water and it requires pumping out about every 10 days. The water accumulates faster if the boat has been heeling a lot. The top appears to be well sealed to the hull along the gunwales,no evidence of leaking there.. There is no sign of damage on the hull or keel and of course at 6 ft 2 in and 82 years of age there is no way I can get a look into that interior space.My boat is on the hard under a snow drift till April, but a younger,smaller, boat savvy friend and I will try again to discover the source of the leak come spring . Have you any advice on any techniques or tricks which we might employ to diagnose the problem ? Your advice will be much appreciated The leak poses little danger to those using the boat, but it is a bloody nuisance, particularly because if we can’t find the source we certainly cannot fix it. From a frustrated M –15 sailor. Have a good holiday season and all health in 2013. RTH. PS the M-15 has been a great boat for me and a source of great interest and admiration among the” big boat” people at my yacht club. -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 7580 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
If it's an '81 I'd just cut down the trunk cover about 3 or 4 inches, and using epoxy putty, fill in the joint between the centerboard trunk and the deck, then glass it with a couple of layers of cloth, again using epoxy. Make sure its REALLY dry in there! If there is any condensation in there you can dry it with the exhaust hose from your dirtsucker. jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Hall" <bert.hall@rogers.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:43 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fw: Questions
Hi Jerry, My boat is a 1981 model. Your reply was exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. In the spring I will start with the" fill the bilge with water and have a few beers procedure" and go on from there depending on the results. Thanks for taking time to answer my queries. Chances are they will benefit other Montgomery owners as well. Cheers all round! RTH
-----Original Message----- From: jerry montgomery Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:39 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fw: Questions
I think the masts were 19' on all the 15's that I made, but I can't speak for the present builder. I'm 99% sure that I never made a change.
Looks like you're talking about water getting into the bilge. Since you say that there is no damage on the hull, including the bottom of the keel, I'd guess that it's coming in thru the top of the CB trunk and working down from there between the trunk and the trunk housing part of the hull liner. What is the year your 15 was made? On some of the very early boats (1981 or 2?) we had that problem and cut down the trunk cover a little so that I could visually inspect it while under construction. The problem was the glass bond between the trunk itself and the underside of the deck would have a void. After we cut down the top of the trunk cover a little I could see and feel around the drain bond.
There's always the method of waiting for a warm, sunny day, filling the bilge with water and taking a cooler full of beer and stretch out below and see where the water comes out!
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Hall" <bert.hall@rogers.com> To: "Montgomery Owners" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:58 PM Subject: M_Boats: Fw: Questions
From: Robert Hall Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 8:56 PM To: Jerry Montgomery Subject: Questions
Hi Jerry. I enjoy reading e mails from you on the Monty site and learn a lot from them and those of other owners . I have two questions which probably only you can answer. First my M 15 was built in 1981 and has a 19 ft mast. You have given the rig dimensions on the owners site as I 15.33 J 4.58 P 16.83 and E 7.83 for the M-15. Do those measurements hold true for a boat with a 19 ft mast which I believe is slightly shorter than used on your later boats? Next my boat takes on water into that box- like space approximately under the thwart in the very bottom of the boat. I suppose the space holds about a gallon of water and it requires pumping out about every 10 days. The water accumulates faster if the boat has been heeling a lot. The top appears to be well sealed to the hull along the gunwales,no evidence of leaking there.. There is no sign of damage on the hull or keel and of course at 6 ft 2 in and 82 years of age there is no way I can get a look into that interior space.My boat is on the hard under a snow drift till April, but a younger,smaller, boat savvy friend and I will try again to discover the source of the leak come spring . Have you any advice on any techniques or tricks which we might employ to diagnose the problem ? Your advice will be much appreciated The leak poses little danger to those using the boat, but it is a bloody nuisance, particularly because if we can’t find the source we certainly cannot fix it. From a frustrated M –15 sailor. Have a good holiday season and all health in 2013. RTH. PS the M-15 has been a great boat for me and a source of great interest and admiration among the” big boat” people at my yacht club.
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On 20-Dec-12 7:43 PM, Robert Hall wrote: Hi Robert, I had the same problem and iuf you go to the Montgomery Archives you can probably find what I did to locate the leak and how I fixed it. I Used Jerry's FOSTER beer approach: fill the inside of the boat with water, open the beer can and lie down under the boat until the water drops diluting your beer. In my case it dripped from the aft side of the centerboard trunk, just where Jerry thought it might be. To confirm the exact location of the leak, I built a styrofoam drop board for the companionway; duct-taped all possible openings closed; then pressurized the interior of my M15 using my shop vac outpout ass a pressure source. I painted all suspect areas (just aft of the centerboard slot) and waited for bubble to form. ... and form they did. Having an exact location; the next step was to cut open the area (remove the teak board to make life easier); clean it out and fill all crevices with WEST epoxy thickened with one of their thickeners I had in my shop. That done, and cured, I gave it another pressure test. No more bubbles to be seen anywhere. My hull number was 400. Connie Benneck
Hi Jerry, My boat is a 1981 model. Your reply was exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. In the spring I will start with the" fill the bilge with water and have a few beers procedure" and go on from there depending on the results. Thanks for takevery where that air could get outing time to answer my queries. Chances are they will benefit other Montgomery owners as well. Cheers all round! RTH
-----Original Message----- From: jerry montgomery Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:39 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fw: Questions
I think the masts were 19' on all the 15's that I made, but I can't speak for the present builder. I'm 99% sure that I never made a change.
Looks like you're talking about water getting into the bilge. Since you say that there is no damage on the hull, including the bottom of the keel, I'd guess that it's coming in thru the top of the CB trunk and working down from there between the trunk and the trunk housing part of the hull liner. What is the year your 15 was made? On some of the very early boats (1981 or 2?) we had that problem and cut down the trunk cover a little so that I could visually inspect it while under construction. The problem was the glass bond between the trunk itself and the underside of the deck would have a void. After we cut down the top of the trunk cover a little I could see and feel around the drain bond.
There's always the method of waiting for a warm, sunny day, filling the bilge with water and taking a cooler full of beer and stretch out below and see where the water comes out!
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Hall" <bert.hall@rogers.com> To: "Montgomery Owners" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:58 PM Subject: M_Boats: Fw: Questions
From: Robert Hall Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 8:56 PM To: Jerry Montgomery Subject: Questions
Hi Jerry. I enjoy reading e mails from you on the Monty site and learn a lot from them and those of other owners . I have two questions which probably only you can answer. First my M 15 was built in 1981 and has a 19 ft mast. You have given the rig dimensions on the owners site as I 15.33 J 4.58 P 16.83 and E 7.83 for the M-15. Do those measurements hold true for a boat with a 19 ft mast which I believe is slightly shorter than used on your later boats? Next my boat takes on water into that box- like space approximately under the thwart in the very bottom of the boat. I suppose the space holds about a gallon of water and it requires pumping out about every 10 days. The water accumulates faster if the boat has been heeling a lot. The top appears to be well sealed to the hull along the gunwales,no evidence of leaking there.. There is no sign of damage on the hull or keel and of course at 6 ft 2 in and 82 years of age there is no way I can get a look into that interior space.My boat is on the hard under a snow drift till April, but a younger,smaller, boat savvy friend and I will try again to discover the source of the leak come spring . Have you any advice on any techniques or tricks which we might employ to diagnose the problem ? Your advice will be much appreciated The leak poses little danger to those using the boat, but it is a bloody nuisance, particularly because if we can’t find the source we certainly cannot fix it. From a frustrated M –15 sailor. Have a good holiday season and all health in 2013. RTH. PS the M-15 has been a great boat for me and a source of great interest and admiration among the” big boat” people at my yacht club.
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 7580 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
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Hi Connie, I had thought of the pressure bit, but did not realize that a shop vac in reverse would be strong enough to get the results that you did. Good show. Can you explain further the procedure you used at your para starting,"Having an exact location etc" Is the board the thwart? Are you to cut from the top and if so what precisely? Any pictures of your repair? Thanks. With help from group members like you I should to solve the problem come spring.Happy holidays. RTH. -----Original Message----- From: Conbert Benneck Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:59 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fw: Questions On 20-Dec-12 7:43 PM, Robert Hall wrote: Hi Robert, I had the same problem and iuf you go to the Montgomery Archives you can probably find what I did to locate the leak and how I fixed it. I Used Jerry's FOSTER beer approach: fill the inside of the boat with water, open the beer can and lie down under the boat until the water drops diluting your beer. In my case it dripped from the aft side of the centerboard trunk, just where Jerry thought it might be. To confirm the exact location of the leak, I built a styrofoam drop board for the companionway; duct-taped all possible openings closed; then pressurized the interior of my M15 using my shop vac outpout ass a pressure source. I painted all suspect areas (just aft of the centerboard slot) and waited for bubble to form. ... and form they did. Having an exact location; the next step was to cut open the area (remove the teak board to make life easier); clean it out and fill all crevices with WEST epoxy thickened with one of their thickeners I had in my shop. That done, and cured, I gave it another pressure test. No more bubbles to be seen anywhere. My hull number was 400. Connie Benneck
Hi Jerry, My boat is a 1981 model. Your reply was exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. In the spring I will start with the" fill the bilge with water and have a few beers procedure" and go on from there depending on the results. Thanks for takevery where that air could get outing time to answer my queries. Chances are they will benefit other Montgomery owners as well. Cheers all round! RTH
-----Original Message----- From: jerry montgomery Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:39 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fw: Questions
I think the masts were 19' on all the 15's that I made, but I can't speak for the present builder. I'm 99% sure that I never made a change.
Looks like you're talking about water getting into the bilge. Since you say that there is no damage on the hull, including the bottom of the keel, I'd guess that it's coming in thru the top of the CB trunk and working down from there between the trunk and the trunk housing part of the hull liner. What is the year your 15 was made? On some of the very early boats (1981 or 2?) we had that problem and cut down the trunk cover a little so that I could visually inspect it while under construction. The problem was the glass bond between the trunk itself and the underside of the deck would have a void. After we cut down the top of the trunk cover a little I could see and feel around the drain bond.
There's always the method of waiting for a warm, sunny day, filling the bilge with water and taking a cooler full of beer and stretch out below and see where the water comes out!
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Hall" <bert.hall@rogers.com> To: "Montgomery Owners" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:58 PM Subject: M_Boats: Fw: Questions
From: Robert Hall Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 8:56 PM To: Jerry Montgomery Subject: Questions
Hi Jerry. I enjoy reading e mails from you on the Monty site and learn a lot from them and those of other owners . I have two questions which probably only you can answer. First my M 15 was built in 1981 and has a 19 ft mast. You have given the rig dimensions on the owners site as I 15.33 J 4.58 P 16.83 and E 7.83 for the M-15. Do those measurements hold true for a boat with a 19 ft mast which I believe is slightly shorter than used on your later boats? Next my boat takes on water into that box- like space approximately under the thwart in the very bottom of the boat. I suppose the space holds about a gallon of water and it requires pumping out about every 10 days. The water accumulates faster if the boat has been heeling a lot. The top appears to be well sealed to the hull along the gunwales,no evidence of leaking there.. There is no sign of damage on the hull or keel and of course at 6 ft 2 in and 82 years of age there is no way I can get a look into that interior space.My boat is on the hard under a snow drift till April, but a younger,smaller, boat savvy friend and I will try again to discover the source of the leak come spring . Have you any advice on any techniques or tricks which we might employ to diagnose the problem ? Your advice will be much appreciated The leak poses little danger to those using the boat, but it is a bloody nuisance, particularly because if we can’t find the source we certainly cannot fix it. From a frustrated M –15 sailor. Have a good holiday season and all health in 2013. RTH. PS the M-15 has been a great boat for me and a source of great interest and admiration among the” big boat” people at my yacht club.
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On 21-Dec-12 4:29 PM, Robert Hall wrote: Hi Robert, Any shop vac will generate enough air pressure to pressurize the interior of the M15. The caveat naturally, is to close all possible air escape routes from the inside to the outside. This means duct-tape sealing all the sail locker openings; the edges of the companionway; and even the sides of the styro foam drop board. Remember you are trying to make the pressurized interior air find the only possible escape route - the gap that you are trying to find. (While you're at it paint other areas with the bubble fluid too. After going to all the trouble to pressurize the interior see if there are any other possible "holes" that need attention. A happy boat is a dry boat. To access the area in question; which was just aft of where centerboard pennant, and to see what is going on; you will have to remove the teak board that is holding the main sheet swivel, block and cam cleat. This is not hard to do - except for the first time, if you haven't done something like that before - you just drill into the center of the teak plugs covering the screws, and then pry them out. A method I use is to insert a suitable length screw into the hole, and as you drive the screw down it will hit the screw head below and lever the plug out of the hole. Otherwise, just keep enlarging the hole and then break the plug into removable pieces. With the teak plugs removed, you can now reach the four screws holding the teak board in place. I happened to have had a visit from grandchildren so had a bottle of bubble fluid available. The test was to turn on the shop vac (I had cut a round hole in the styrofoam hatchboard to accommodate the nozzle diameter of my large hose (3" diameter?). After letting the shop vac run for a few minutes, I then painted the area in question with the bubble fluid; took another drink from "Jerry's magic FOSTER fluid" and waited.... I didn't have to wait very long. My suspect area that wasn't properly sealed started merrily blowing bubbles..... The size, and quantity of the bubbles generated proved conclusively that his was the area needing the repair. The repair itself was easy (I have done fiberglass work of other previous boats). If this is new to you then I suggest you go to the WEST Epoxy website via Google and ask for their free "How To" fiberglass repair manual. They cover all sorts of boat repairs, and how to do them properly (using WEST products); it is an excellent publication and it will remove any fears you might have about doing this work. To reach the area needing the repair, I had to cut away some of the fiberglass. I probably used a DREMEL cutter to remove about a 2" X 2" piece in the cockpit sole where it drains into the CB trunk. Do this carefully because you will be epoxying the piece back in place when you have finished your repair. Then you have to grind out the suspect area so that you have clean material to which you now bond a mixture of WEST epoxy and one of their fillers; it then has the consistency of peanut butter. Liberally apply the "peanut butter" to the afflicted area. After it has cured overnight (cure rate is temperature dependent); add pressure to the inside ; apply bubble solution and check your work. If you were successful, there will be no more bubbles. Then it is time for some more of "Jerry's magic FOSTER fluid" to celebrate. The leak problem is now solved, but you have to put the piece you cut out to gain access back in place. Put the teak board back in place. Tighten screws. Hopefully you will have gotten a small bag of teak plugs at WEST MARINE (they come in different diameters, so measure your plug diameter before you head for the store) Follow WEST Epoxy Manual instructions for putting the new plugs back in place - _*and remember to line up the grain to match the grain in the board.... *_ carefully shave off the protruding teak plug (grain my go on a slant in the plug which you have to determine, otherwise it may be flush on the one side of the hole, but below the surface at the opposite side). Sorry Robert I have no photos of the operation or the repair. Just keep the questions coming and I'll try to answer them for you. Happy holidays, Connie ex M15 #400 LEPPO Hi Connie, I had thought of the pressure bit, but did not realize that a shop vac in reverse would be strong enough to get the results that you did. Gouteood show. Can you explain further the procedure you used at your parea starting,"Having an exact location etc" Is the board the thwart? Are you to cut from the top and if so what precisely? Any pictures of your repair?
Thanks. With help from group members like you I should to solve the problem come spring.Happy holidays. RTH.
-----Original Message----- From: Conbert Benneck ; Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:59 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fw: Questions
On 20-Dec-12 7:43 PM, Robert Hall wrote:
Hi Robert,
I had the same problem and iuf you go to the Montgomery Archives you can probably find what I did to locate the leak and how I fixed it.
I Used Jerry's FOSTER beer approach: fill the inside of the boat with water, open the beer can and lie down under the boat until the water drops diluting your beer.
In my case it dripped from the aft side of the centerboard trunk, just where Jerry thought it might be.
To confirm the exact location of the leak, I built a styrofoam drop board for the companionway; duct-taped all possible openings closed; then pressurized the interior of my M15 using my shop vac outpout ass a pressure source.
I painted all suspect areas (just aft of the centerboard slot) and waited for bubble to form. ... and form they did.
Having an exact location; the next step was to cut open the area (remove the teak board to make life easier); clean it out and fill all crevices with WEST epoxy thickened with one of their thickeners I had in my shop.
That done, and cured, I gave it another pressure test. No more bubbles to be seen anywhere.
My hull number was 400.
Connie Benneck
Hi Jerry, My boat is a 1981 model. Your reply was exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. In the spring I will start with the" fill the bilge with water and have a few beers procedure" and go on from there depending on the results. Thanks for takevery where that air could get outing time to answer my queries. Chances are they will benefit other Montgomery owners as well. Cheers all round! RTH
-----Original Message----- From: jerry montgomery Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:39 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fw: Questions
I think the masts were 19' on all the 15's that I made, but I can't speak for the present builder. I'm 99% sure that I never made a change.
Looks like you're talking about water getting into the bilge. Since you say that there is no damage on the hull, including the bottom of the keel, I'd guess that it's coming in thru the top of the CB trunk and working down from there between the trunk and the trunk housing part of the hull liner. What is the year your 15 was made? On some of the very early boats (1981 or 2?) we had that problem and cut down the trunk cover a little so that I could visually inspect it while under construction. The problem was the glass bond between the trunk itself and the underside of the deck would have a void. After we cut down the top of the trunk cover a little I could see and feel around the drain bond.
There's always the method of waiting for a warm, sunny day, filling the bilge with water and taking a cooler full of beer and stretch out below and see where the water comes out!
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Hall" <bert.hall@rogers.com> To: "Montgomery Owners" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:58 PM Subject: M_Boats: Fw: Questions
From: Robert Hall Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 8:56 PM To: Jerry Montgomery Subject: Questions
Hi Jerry. I enjoy reading e mails from you on the Monty site and learn a lot from them and those of other owners . I have two questions which probably only you can answer. First my M 15 was built in 1981 and has a 19 ft mast. You have given the rig dimensions on the owners site as I 15.33 J 4.58 P 16.83 and E 7.83 for the M-15. Do those measurements hold true for a boat with a 19 ft mast which I believe is slightly shorter than used on your later boats? Next my boat takes on water into that box- like space approximately under the thwart in the very bottom of the boat. I suppose the space holds about a gallon of water and it requires pumping out about every 10 days. The water accumulates faster if the boat has been heeling a lot. The top appears to be well sealed to the hull along the gunwales,no evidence of leaking there.. There is no sign of damage on the hull or keel and of course at 6 ft 2 in and 82 years of age there is no way I can get a look into that interior space.My boat is on the hard under a snow drift till April, but a younger,smaller, boat savvy friend and I will try again to discover the source of the leak come spring . Have you any advice on any techniques or tricks which we might employ to diagnose the problem ? Your advice will be much appreciated The leak poses little danger to those using the boat, but it is a bloody nuisance, particularly because if we can’t find the source we certainly cannot fix it. From a frustrated M –15 sailor. Have a good holiday season and all health in 2013. RTH. PS the M-15 has been a great boat for me and a source of great interest and admiration among the” big boat” people at my yacht club.
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participants (4)
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Conbert Benneck -
Howard Audsley -
jerry montgomery -
Robert Hall