Update to my project: Remove rusty steel, replace with lead shot, with questions
I have a 1975 M17, #69. I attempted email Bob Eeg using the subcriber list, it came back no such address.... If someone can provide his or Jerrry's email address so I can email them directly with questions it would be helpful... I'm in the middle of a project of replacing the rusty steel punchings and replacing with lead shot. I will try to post my project (with dollar and time costs) in the How to and Specs section of the website with pictures so ya'll can decide if it's a project you want to do.. I've cut out 4 holes on the port side of the keel, 3 on the starboard side, and have removed the approximately 224 or more pounds of steel puchings. (that plus the 175 pound cast iron CB total only 400 pounds, I know Jerry has posted messages or whatnot saying those old boats should have 500 pounds or so total ballast. My boat sailed very well with decent wind, pointed great, and so I will use the same amount of lead in pounds as what I removed to keep the characteristics as it was, and not worry about getting the ballast to the 500 pounds....Now that all the rusty steel has been removed, the centerboard drops again!! My question concerns the other picture which shows the forward side of the keel, with the steel punchings encased in epoxy, located under the compression post. I did a previous project where I injected epoxy into the keel after drilling a lot of 1/4" holes in order to fill any air pockets with the epoxy with the hope of preventing water from getting into the punchings. (Did have water in the keel when bought) So I can't say for sure if that steel under the compression post was loose prior to my epoxy project or if Jerry put epoxy in that area specifically to create a solid foundation under the compression post so that the post would have support -- or,as a friend believes, the hull itself above the keel is enough support for the load the compression post is under when the boat is under sail, and does not need additional foundation underneath the hull in the keel. Hopefully this makes sense to you. Also, (change in plans) I intend to repair the outer wall of the hull by sanding the existing outer wall building up a new fiberglass wall outside of the existing wall, rather than sanding, fiberglassing each individual cutout. I will build a thin layer in the cutout sections first so that I can fiberglass over and keep the void in the keel needed for the lead shot to pour into. To me this will be easier. It will make the keel wider I know, but intend on keeping a good airfoil shape. Of course it will be done vertically (don't intend on setting the boat on it's side so that the keel is horizontal (unless someone recomends that would be much easier). After the outer wall is done, I have lead shot which I will pour from holes in the cabin above into the keel. Thanks for any input, Jim Hymes
Email Jerry as be is the only one who knows how to do it 100% correct. jerry@jerrymontgomery.org :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 10:19 AM James Hymes <jamesehymes@gmail.com> wrote:
I have a 1975 M17, #69. I attempted email Bob Eeg using the subcriber list, it came back no such address.... If someone can provide his or Jerrry's email address so I can email them directly with questions it would be helpful...
I'm in the middle of a project of replacing the rusty steel punchings and replacing with lead shot. I will try to post my project (with dollar and time costs) in the How to and Specs section of the website with pictures so ya'll can decide if it's a project you want to do.. I've cut out 4 holes on the port side of the keel, 3 on the starboard side, and have removed the approximately 224 or more pounds of steel puchings. (that plus the 175 pound cast iron CB total only 400 pounds, I know Jerry has posted messages or whatnot saying those old boats should have 500 pounds or so total ballast. My boat sailed very well with decent wind, pointed great, and so I will use the same amount of lead in pounds as what I removed to keep the characteristics as it was, and not worry about getting the ballast to the 500 pounds....Now that all the rusty steel has been removed, the centerboard drops again!! My question concerns the other picture which shows the forward side of the keel, with the steel punchings encased in epoxy, located under the compression post. I did a previous project where I injected epoxy into the keel after drilling a lot of 1/4" holes in order to fill any air pockets with the epoxy with the hope of preventing water from getting into the punchings. (Did have water in the keel when bought) So I can't say for sure if that steel under the compression post was loose prior to my epoxy project or if Jerry put epoxy in that area specifically to create a solid foundation under the compression post so that the post would have support -- or,as a friend believes, the hull itself above the keel is enough support for the load the compression post is under when the boat is under sail, and does not need additional foundation underneath the hull in the keel. Hopefully this makes sense to you. Also, (change in plans) I intend to repair the outer wall of the hull by sanding the existing outer wall building up a new fiberglass wall outside of the existing wall, rather than sanding, fiberglassing each individual cutout. I will build a thin layer in the cutout sections first so that I can fiberglass over and keep the void in the keel needed for the lead shot to pour into. To me this will be easier. It will make the keel wider I know, but intend on keeping a good airfoil shape. Of course it will be done vertically (don't intend on setting the boat on it's side so that the keel is horizontal (unless someone recomends that would be much easier). After the outer wall is done, I have lead shot which I will pour from holes in the cabin above into the keel.
Thanks for any input, Jim Hymes
We’ve done a bunch of these type repairs. I will remind you too insert a plywood spacer in the empty centerboard trunk to assure the board will go back in. Plus don’t ad more glass to the keel. Just fill the holes with glass and sand smooth. Count the lead pounds you pour in from above. Add catalyzed resin slowly to avoid Thermal runaway. These older Jerry built boats sail very well. Good luck Bob Eeg Sent from my iPad
On Apr 28, 2019, at 10:26 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Email Jerry as be is the only one who knows how to do it 100% correct.
jerry@jerrymontgomery.org
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 10:19 AM James Hymes <jamesehymes@gmail.com> wrote:
I have a 1975 M17, #69. I attempted email Bob Eeg using the subcriber list, it came back no such address.... If someone can provide his or Jerrry's email address so I can email them directly with questions it would be helpful...
I'm in the middle of a project of replacing the rusty steel punchings and replacing with lead shot. I will try to post my project (with dollar and time costs) in the How to and Specs section of the website with pictures so ya'll can decide if it's a project you want to do.. I've cut out 4 holes on the port side of the keel, 3 on the starboard side, and have removed the approximately 224 or more pounds of steel puchings. (that plus the 175 pound cast iron CB total only 400 pounds, I know Jerry has posted messages or whatnot saying those old boats should have 500 pounds or so total ballast. My boat sailed very well with decent wind, pointed great, and so I will use the same amount of lead in pounds as what I removed to keep the characteristics as it was, and not worry about getting the ballast to the 500 pounds....Now that all the rusty steel has been removed, the centerboard drops again!! My question concerns the other picture which shows the forward side of the keel, with the steel punchings encased in epoxy, located under the compression post. I did a previous project where I injected epoxy into the keel after drilling a lot of 1/4" holes in order to fill any air pockets with the epoxy with the hope of preventing water from getting into the punchings. (Did have water in the keel when bought) So I can't say for sure if that steel under the compression post was loose prior to my epoxy project or if Jerry put epoxy in that area specifically to create a solid foundation under the compression post so that the post would have support -- or,as a friend believes, the hull itself above the keel is enough support for the load the compression post is under when the boat is under sail, and does not need additional foundation underneath the hull in the keel. Hopefully this makes sense to you. Also, (change in plans) I intend to repair the outer wall of the hull by sanding the existing outer wall building up a new fiberglass wall outside of the existing wall, rather than sanding, fiberglassing each individual cutout. I will build a thin layer in the cutout sections first so that I can fiberglass over and keep the void in the keel needed for the lead shot to pour into. To me this will be easier. It will make the keel wider I know, but intend on keeping a good airfoil shape. Of course it will be done vertically (don't intend on setting the boat on it's side so that the keel is horizontal (unless someone recomends that would be much easier). After the outer wall is done, I have lead shot which I will pour from holes in the cabin above into the keel.
Thanks for any input, Jim Hymes
Just would add ditto what someone else posted, no need to add a layer of glass to the keel. Just cover over the holes. Someone did this same job, maybe on an M15 instead of M17, in any case there was a writeup and pictures somewhere...not on MSOG Photo site originally but maybe it's there now. Rather than drill a bunch of holes from above and pour the lead in after closing up the keel, they put the lead in from the sides with the holes still open, layer by layer from the bottom up. For one thing that way you know it is evenly spread along the keel and is as low as possible in the keel, working from bottom up. You will have less volume of lead than there was of steel punchings since the lead weighs more per unit of volume. So there will be some extra space at the top of the keel I'd reckon. cheers, John On 4/28/19 10:18 AM, James Hymes wrote:
I have a 1975 M17, #69. I attempted email Bob Eeg using the subcriber list, it came back no such address.... If someone can provide his or Jerrry's email address so I can email them directly with questions it would be helpful...
I'm in the middle of a project of replacing the rusty steel punchings and replacing with lead shot. I will try to post my project (with dollar and time costs) in the How to and Specs section of the website with pictures so ya'll can decide if it's a project you want to do.. I've cut out 4 holes on the port side of the keel, 3 on the starboard side, and have removed the approximately 224 or more pounds of steel puchings. (that plus the 175 pound cast iron CB total only 400 pounds, I know Jerry has posted messages or whatnot saying those old boats should have 500 pounds or so total ballast. My boat sailed very well with decent wind, pointed great, and so I will use the same amount of lead in pounds as what I removed to keep the characteristics as it was, and not worry about getting the ballast to the 500 pounds....Now that all the rusty steel has been removed, the centerboard drops again!! My question concerns the other picture which shows the forward side of the keel, with the steel punchings encased in epoxy, located under the compression post. I did a previous project where I injected epoxy into the keel after drilling a lot of 1/4" holes in order to fill any air pockets with the epoxy with the hope of preventing water from getting into the punchings. (Did have water in the keel when bought) So I can't say for sure if that steel under the compression post was loose prior to my epoxy project or if Jerry put epoxy in that area specifically to create a solid foundation under the compression post so that the post would have support -- or,as a friend believes, the hull itself above the keel is enough support for the load the compression post is under when the boat is under sail, and does not need additional foundation underneath the hull in the keel. Hopefully this makes sense to you. Also, (change in plans) I intend to repair the outer wall of the hull by sanding the existing outer wall building up a new fiberglass wall outside of the existing wall, rather than sanding, fiberglassing each individual cutout. I will build a thin layer in the cutout sections first so that I can fiberglass over and keep the void in the keel needed for the lead shot to pour into. To me this will be easier. It will make the keel wider I know, but intend on keeping a good airfoil shape. Of course it will be done vertically (don't intend on setting the boat on it's side so that the keel is horizontal (unless someone recomends that would be much easier). After the outer wall is done, I have lead shot which I will pour from holes in the cabin above into the keel.
Thanks for any input, Jim Hymes
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
You're probably thinking of Sean Mulligan's excellent posting on how he did the keel on his M23, Dauntless. Unfortunately, I don't think it is available online anymore. On the M17, you should consider getting the lead weight as far forward as possible. She'll sail faster with the transom out of the water. On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 9:46 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Just would add ditto what someone else posted, no need to add a layer of glass to the keel. Just cover over the holes.
Someone did this same job, maybe on an M15 instead of M17, in any case there was a writeup and pictures somewhere...not on MSOG Photo site originally but maybe it's there now.
Rather than drill a bunch of holes from above and pour the lead in after closing up the keel, they put the lead in from the sides with the holes still open, layer by layer from the bottom up.
For one thing that way you know it is evenly spread along the keel and is as low as possible in the keel, working from bottom up. You will have less volume of lead than there was of steel punchings since the lead weighs more per unit of volume. So there will be some extra space at the top of the keel I'd reckon.
cheers, John
On 4/28/19 10:18 AM, James Hymes wrote:
I have a 1975 M17, #69. I attempted email Bob Eeg using the subcriber list, it came back no such address.... If someone can provide his or Jerrry's email address so I can email them directly with questions it would be helpful...
I'm in the middle of a project of replacing the rusty steel punchings and replacing with lead shot. I will try to post my project (with dollar and time costs) in the How to and Specs section of the website with pictures so ya'll can decide if it's a project you want to do.. I've cut out 4 holes on the port side of the keel, 3 on the starboard side, and have removed the approximately 224 or more pounds of steel puchings. (that plus the 175 pound cast iron CB total only 400 pounds, I know Jerry has posted messages or whatnot saying those old boats should have 500 pounds or so total ballast. My boat sailed very well with decent wind, pointed great, and so I will use the same amount of lead in pounds as what I removed to keep the characteristics as it was, and not worry about getting the ballast to the 500 pounds....Now that all the rusty steel has been removed, the centerboard drops again!! My question concerns the other picture which shows the forward side of the keel, with the steel punchings encased in epoxy, located under the compression post. I did a previous project where I injected epoxy into the keel after drilling a lot of 1/4" holes in order to fill any air pockets with the epoxy with the hope of preventing water from getting into the punchings. (Did have water in the keel when bought) So I can't say for sure if that steel under the compression post was loose prior to my epoxy project or if Jerry put epoxy in that area specifically to create a solid foundation under the compression post so that the post would have support -- or,as a friend believes, the hull itself above the keel is enough support for the load the compression post is under when the boat is under sail, and does not need additional foundation underneath the hull in the keel. Hopefully this makes sense to you. Also, (change in plans) I intend to repair the outer wall of the hull by sanding the existing outer wall building up a new fiberglass wall outside of the existing wall, rather than sanding, fiberglassing each individual cutout. I will build a thin layer in the cutout sections first so that I can fiberglass over and keep the void in the keel needed for the lead shot to pour into. To me this will be easier. It will make the keel wider I know, but intend on keeping a good airfoil shape. Of course it will be done vertically (don't intend on setting the boat on it's side so that the keel is horizontal (unless someone recomends that would be much easier). After the outer wall is done, I have lead shot which I will pour from holes in the cabin above into the keel.
Thanks for any input, Jim Hymes
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Just to clarify Sean Mulligan’s method. He smelted the lead and cast ingots, which he layered into the keel. This is the reason he was able to insert the full weight required without having to close up the holes. Once inserted and secured, he closed up the keel. ~Skip <Sent from my iPhone>
On Apr 29, 2019, at 11:13 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
You're probably thinking of Sean Mulligan's excellent posting on how he did the keel on his M23, Dauntless. Unfortunately, I don't think it is available online anymore. On the M17, you should consider getting the lead weight as far forward as possible. She'll sail faster with the transom out of the water.
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 9:46 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Just would add ditto what someone else posted, no need to add a layer of glass to the keel. Just cover over the holes.
Someone did this same job, maybe on an M15 instead of M17, in any case there was a writeup and pictures somewhere...not on MSOG Photo site originally but maybe it's there now.
Rather than drill a bunch of holes from above and pour the lead in after closing up the keel, they put the lead in from the sides with the holes still open, layer by layer from the bottom up.
For one thing that way you know it is evenly spread along the keel and is as low as possible in the keel, working from bottom up. You will have less volume of lead than there was of steel punchings since the lead weighs more per unit of volume. So there will be some extra space at the top of the keel I'd reckon.
cheers, John
On 4/28/19 10:18 AM, James Hymes wrote: I have a 1975 M17, #69. I attempted email Bob Eeg using the subcriber list, it came back no such address.... If someone can provide his or Jerrry's email address so I can email them directly with questions it would be helpful...
I'm in the middle of a project of replacing the rusty steel punchings and replacing with lead shot. I will try to post my project (with dollar and time costs) in the How to and Specs section of the website with pictures so ya'll can decide if it's a project you want to do.. I've cut out 4 holes on the port side of the keel, 3 on the starboard side, and have removed the approximately 224 or more pounds of steel puchings. (that plus the 175 pound cast iron CB total only 400 pounds, I know Jerry has posted messages or whatnot saying those old boats should have 500 pounds or so total ballast. My boat sailed very well with decent wind, pointed great, and so I will use the same amount of lead in pounds as what I removed to keep the characteristics as it was, and not worry about getting the ballast to the 500 pounds....Now that all the rusty steel has been removed, the centerboard drops again!! My question concerns the other picture which shows the forward side of the keel, with the steel punchings encased in epoxy, located under the compression post. I did a previous project where I injected epoxy into the keel after drilling a lot of 1/4" holes in order to fill any air pockets with the epoxy with the hope of preventing water from getting into the punchings. (Did have water in the keel when bought) So I can't say for sure if that steel under the compression post was loose prior to my epoxy project or if Jerry put epoxy in that area specifically to create a solid foundation under the compression post so that the post would have support -- or,as a friend believes, the hull itself above the keel is enough support for the load the compression post is under when the boat is under sail, and does not need additional foundation underneath the hull in the keel. Hopefully this makes sense to you. Also, (change in plans) I intend to repair the outer wall of the hull by sanding the existing outer wall building up a new fiberglass wall outside of the existing wall, rather than sanding, fiberglassing each individual cutout. I will build a thin layer in the cutout sections first so that I can fiberglass over and keep the void in the keel needed for the lead shot to pour into. To me this will be easier. It will make the keel wider I know, but intend on keeping a good airfoil shape. Of course it will be done vertically (don't intend on setting the boat on it's side so that the keel is horizontal (unless someone recomends that would be much easier). After the outer wall is done, I have lead shot which I will pour from holes in the cabin above into the keel.
Thanks for any input, Jim Hymes
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I thought he cast the lead pellets in resin, in layers/stages, but I may have mis-remembered. Either way would work... On 4/29/19 9:56 AM, William Campion via montgomery_boats wrote:
Just to clarify Sean Mulligan’s method. He smelted the lead and cast ingots, which he layered into the keel. This is the reason he was able to insert the full weight required without having to close up the holes. Once inserted and secured, he closed up the keel.
~Skip <Sent from my iPhone>
On Apr 29, 2019, at 11:13 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
You're probably thinking of Sean Mulligan's excellent posting on how he did the keel on his M23, Dauntless. Unfortunately, I don't think it is available online anymore. On the M17, you should consider getting the lead weight as far forward as possible. She'll sail faster with the transom out of the water.
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 9:46 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Just would add ditto what someone else posted, no need to add a layer of glass to the keel. Just cover over the holes.
Someone did this same job, maybe on an M15 instead of M17, in any case there was a writeup and pictures somewhere...not on MSOG Photo site originally but maybe it's there now.
Rather than drill a bunch of holes from above and pour the lead in after closing up the keel, they put the lead in from the sides with the holes still open, layer by layer from the bottom up.
For one thing that way you know it is evenly spread along the keel and is as low as possible in the keel, working from bottom up. You will have less volume of lead than there was of steel punchings since the lead weighs more per unit of volume. So there will be some extra space at the top of the keel I'd reckon.
cheers, John
On 4/28/19 10:18 AM, James Hymes wrote: I have a 1975 M17, #69. I attempted email Bob Eeg using the subcriber list, it came back no such address.... If someone can provide his or Jerrry's email address so I can email them directly with questions it would be helpful...
I'm in the middle of a project of replacing the rusty steel punchings and replacing with lead shot. I will try to post my project (with dollar and time costs) in the How to and Specs section of the website with pictures so ya'll can decide if it's a project you want to do.. I've cut out 4 holes on the port side of the keel, 3 on the starboard side, and have removed the approximately 224 or more pounds of steel puchings. (that plus the 175 pound cast iron CB total only 400 pounds, I know Jerry has posted messages or whatnot saying those old boats should have 500 pounds or so total ballast. My boat sailed very well with decent wind, pointed great, and so I will use the same amount of lead in pounds as what I removed to keep the characteristics as it was, and not worry about getting the ballast to the 500 pounds....Now that all the rusty steel has been removed, the centerboard drops again!! My question concerns the other picture which shows the forward side of the keel, with the steel punchings encased in epoxy, located under the compression post. I did a previous project where I injected epoxy into the keel after drilling a lot of 1/4" holes in order to fill any air pockets with the epoxy with the hope of preventing water from getting into the punchings. (Did have water in the keel when bought) So I can't say for sure if that steel under the compression post was loose prior to my epoxy project or if Jerry put epoxy in that area specifically to create a solid foundation under the compression post so that the post would have support -- or,as a friend believes, the hull itself above the keel is enough support for the load the compression post is under when the boat is under sail, and does not need additional foundation underneath the hull in the keel. Hopefully this makes sense to you. Also, (change in plans) I intend to repair the outer wall of the hull by sanding the existing outer wall building up a new fiberglass wall outside of the existing wall, rather than sanding, fiberglassing each individual cutout. I will build a thin layer in the cutout sections first so that I can fiberglass over and keep the void in the keel needed for the lead shot to pour into. To me this will be easier. It will make the keel wider I know, but intend on keeping a good airfoil shape. Of course it will be done vertically (don't intend on setting the boat on it's side so that the keel is horizontal (unless someone recomends that would be much easier). After the outer wall is done, I have lead shot which I will pour from holes in the cabin above into the keel.
Thanks for any input, Jim Hymes
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Sean made bricks in small breadpans mixing lead BBs in resin. His www-site was a great resource. Saddened when it went away :-( :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Mon, Apr 29, 2019, 10:36 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I thought he cast the lead pellets in resin, in layers/stages, but I may have mis-remembered. Either way would work...
On 4/29/19 9:56 AM, William Campion via montgomery_boats wrote:
Just to clarify Sean Mulligan’s method. He smelted the lead and cast ingots, which he layered into the keel. This is the reason he was able to insert the full weight required without having to close up the holes. Once inserted and secured, he closed up the keel.
~Skip <Sent from my iPhone>
On Apr 29, 2019, at 11:13 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
You're probably thinking of Sean Mulligan's excellent posting on how he did the keel on his M23, Dauntless. Unfortunately, I don't think it is available online anymore. On the M17, you should consider getting the lead weight as far forward as possible. She'll sail faster with the transom out of the water.
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 9:46 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Just would add ditto what someone else posted, no need to add a layer of glass to the keel. Just cover over the holes.
Someone did this same job, maybe on an M15 instead of M17, in any case there was a writeup and pictures somewhere...not on MSOG Photo site originally but maybe it's there now.
Rather than drill a bunch of holes from above and pour the lead in after closing up the keel, they put the lead in from the sides with the holes still open, layer by layer from the bottom up.
For one thing that way you know it is evenly spread along the keel and is as low as possible in the keel, working from bottom up. You will have less volume of lead than there was of steel punchings since the lead weighs more per unit of volume. So there will be some extra space at the top of the keel I'd reckon.
cheers, John
On 4/28/19 10:18 AM, James Hymes wrote: I have a 1975 M17, #69. I attempted email Bob Eeg using the subcriber list, it came back no such address.... If someone can provide his or Jerrry's email address so I can email them directly with questions it would be helpful...
I'm in the middle of a project of replacing the rusty steel punchings and replacing with lead shot. I will try to post my project (with dollar and time costs) in the How to and Specs section of the website with pictures so ya'll can decide if it's a project you want to do.. I've cut out 4 holes on the port side of the keel, 3 on the starboard side, and have removed the approximately 224 or more pounds of steel puchings. (that plus the 175 pound cast iron CB total only 400 pounds, I know Jerry has posted messages or whatnot saying those old boats should have 500 pounds or so total ballast. My boat sailed very well with decent wind, pointed great, and so I will use the same amount of lead in pounds as what I removed to keep the characteristics as it was, and not worry about getting the ballast to the 500 pounds....Now that all the rusty steel has been removed, the centerboard drops again!! My question concerns the other picture which shows the forward side of the keel, with the steel punchings encased in epoxy, located under the compression post. I did a previous project where I injected epoxy into the keel after drilling a lot of 1/4" holes in order to fill any air pockets with the epoxy with the hope of preventing water from getting into the punchings. (Did have water in the keel when bought) So I can't say for sure if that steel under the compression post was loose prior to my epoxy project or if Jerry put epoxy in that area specifically to create a solid foundation under the compression post so that the post would have support -- or,as a friend believes, the hull itself above the keel is enough support for the load the compression post is under when the boat is under sail, and does not need additional foundation underneath the hull in the keel. Hopefully this makes sense to you. Also, (change in plans) I intend to repair the outer wall of the hull by sanding the existing outer wall building up a new fiberglass wall outside of the existing wall, rather than sanding, fiberglassing each individual cutout. I will build a thin layer in the cutout sections first so that I can fiberglass over and keep the void in the keel needed for the lead shot to pour into. To me this will be easier. It will make the keel wider I know, but intend on keeping a good airfoil shape. Of course it will be done vertically (don't intend on setting the boat on it's side so that the keel is horizontal (unless someone recomends that would be much easier). After the outer wall is done, I have lead shot which I will pour from holes in the cabin above into the keel.
Thanks for any input, Jim Hymes
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John, Now that you mention it....I think you’re right. I must be the one with the feeble memory. ~Skip <Sent from my iPhone>
On Apr 29, 2019, at 1:36 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I thought he cast the lead pellets in resin, in layers/stages, but I may have mis-remembered. Either way would work...
On 4/29/19 9:56 AM, William Campion via montgomery_boats wrote: Just to clarify Sean Mulligan’s method. He smelted the lead and cast ingots, which he layered into the keel. This is the reason he was able to insert the full weight required without having to close up the holes. Once inserted and secured, he closed up the keel. ~Skip <Sent from my iPhone>
On Apr 29, 2019, at 11:13 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
You're probably thinking of Sean Mulligan's excellent posting on how he did the keel on his M23, Dauntless. Unfortunately, I don't think it is available online anymore. On the M17, you should consider getting the lead weight as far forward as possible. She'll sail faster with the transom out of the water.
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 9:46 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Just would add ditto what someone else posted, no need to add a layer of glass to the keel. Just cover over the holes.
Someone did this same job, maybe on an M15 instead of M17, in any case there was a writeup and pictures somewhere...not on MSOG Photo site originally but maybe it's there now.
Rather than drill a bunch of holes from above and pour the lead in after closing up the keel, they put the lead in from the sides with the holes still open, layer by layer from the bottom up.
For one thing that way you know it is evenly spread along the keel and is as low as possible in the keel, working from bottom up. You will have less volume of lead than there was of steel punchings since the lead weighs more per unit of volume. So there will be some extra space at the top of the keel I'd reckon.
cheers, John
On 4/28/19 10:18 AM, James Hymes wrote: I have a 1975 M17, #69. I attempted email Bob Eeg using the subcriber list, it came back no such address.... If someone can provide his or Jerrry's email address so I can email them directly with questions it would be helpful...
I'm in the middle of a project of replacing the rusty steel punchings and replacing with lead shot. I will try to post my project (with dollar and time costs) in the How to and Specs section of the website with pictures so ya'll can decide if it's a project you want to do.. I've cut out 4 holes on the port side of the keel, 3 on the starboard side, and have removed the approximately 224 or more pounds of steel puchings. (that plus the 175 pound cast iron CB total only 400 pounds, I know Jerry has posted messages or whatnot saying those old boats should have 500 pounds or so total ballast. My boat sailed very well with decent wind, pointed great, and so I will use the same amount of lead in pounds as what I removed to keep the characteristics as it was, and not worry about getting the ballast to the 500 pounds....Now that all the rusty steel has been removed, the centerboard drops again!! My question concerns the other picture which shows the forward side of the keel, with the steel punchings encased in epoxy, located under the compression post. I did a previous project where I injected epoxy into the keel after drilling a lot of 1/4" holes in order to fill any air pockets with the epoxy with the hope of preventing water from getting into the punchings. (Did have water in the keel when bought) So I can't say for sure if that steel under the compression post was loose prior to my epoxy project or if Jerry put epoxy in that area specifically to create a solid foundation under the compression post so that the post would have support -- or,as a friend believes, the hull itself above the keel is enough support for the load the compression post is under when the boat is under sail, and does not need additional foundation underneath the hull in the keel. Hopefully this makes sense to you. Also, (change in plans) I intend to repair the outer wall of the hull by sanding the existing outer wall building up a new fiberglass wall outside of the existing wall, rather than sanding, fiberglassing each individual cutout. I will build a thin layer in the cutout sections first so that I can fiberglass over and keep the void in the keel needed for the lead shot to pour into. To me this will be easier. It will make the keel wider I know, but intend on keeping a good airfoil shape. Of course it will be done vertically (don't intend on setting the boat on it's side so that the keel is horizontal (unless someone recomends that would be much easier). After the outer wall is done, I have lead shot which I will pour from holes in the cabin above into the keel.
Thanks for any input, Jim Hymes
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (6)
-
Bob Eeg -
Dave Scobie -
James Hymes -
John Schinnerer -
Larry Yake -
William Campion