Re the raisable rudder, Ever since I got my M17 hull number 300 I have read and see photos of the raisable rudder. I'm not talking about the kick up rudder but the outfit that allows the rudder to slide upward to clear the ground while on the trailer. My M17 did not come with such a contraption. Is the hardware available from somewhere? Thanks. Fred Berthrong Dulce, M17 #300 On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:02:00 -0800 Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> writes:
This question is for Jerry or anyone who has experience with both the old style M17 rudder with the "stepped forward" leading edge below the hull, and the newer style "straight edge" raiseable rudder.
I have the older style and am in the process of refinishing and resealing it. The seam between the main body of the rudder and the attached leading edge portion (with 3 - 1/2" wood dowels) had opened and was allowing moisture into the wood. In order to reseal it, I have removed it to clean the surfaces. I am wondering if this would be a good time to convert it to the raiseable "straight edge" type. It has been an inconvenience a few times not being able to raise the rudder, but it is my understanding that the "stepped forward" rudder was the original Lyle Hess design to better balance the helm. It certain is well balanced. My question is how much balance would I lose going to the newer design?
Thanks, Larry Yake M17, #200 Tullamore
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Fred I just sent you some photos of how the system works. Fair winds Bob Eeg Frederick M Berthrong wrote:
Re the raisable rudder,
Ever since I got my M17 hull number 300 I have read and see photos of the raisable rudder. I'm not talking about the kick up rudder but the outfit that allows the rudder to slide upward to clear the ground while on the trailer. My M17 did not come with such a contraption. Is the hardware available from somewhere?
Thanks.
Fred Berthrong Dulce, M17 #300
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:02:00 -0800 Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> writes:
This question is for Jerry or anyone who has experience with both the old style M17 rudder with the "stepped forward" leading edge below the hull, and the newer style "straight edge" raiseable rudder.
I have the older style and am in the process of refinishing and resealing it. The seam between the main body of the rudder and the attached leading edge portion (with 3 - 1/2" wood dowels) had opened and was allowing moisture into the wood. In order to reseal it, I have removed it to clean the surfaces. I am wondering if this would be a good time to convert it to the raiseable "straight edge" type. It has been an inconvenience a few times not being able to raise the rudder, but it is my understanding that the "stepped forward" rudder was the original Lyle Hess design to better balance the helm. It certain is well balanced. My question is how much balance would I lose going to the newer design?
Thanks, Larry Yake M17, #200 Tullamore
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Someone on the list once suggested raising the rudder with a tiny micro block inside the rudder gudgeon instead of running the line thru a hole in the rudder. So, I did that, and mounted a cam cleat on top of the transom. Wow, what a great, easy, upgrade. Highly recommended. Tod
Tod: I've got the cam cleat on top of the transom which works great but I am having a hard time visualizing the block in the gudgeon. Can you give me more details? Thanks. Maria ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 1:20 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: M17 Rudders
Someone on the list once suggested raising the rudder with a tiny micro block inside the rudder gudgeon instead of running the line thru a hole in the rudder.
So, I did that, and mounted a cam cleat on top of the transom.
Wow, what a great, easy, upgrade. Highly recommended.
Tod
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Maria, Here is a picture showing the block. It would have been better if I had drilled the holes in the gudgeon slightly more aft (closer to the mahogany) than I did (I probably could have avoided the chafe that this picture illustrates). I had left the rudder mounted for a week or two, not raised completely and the line chafed on the transom gudgeon. I replaced the line and am careful not to leave the rudder in a position not quite fully raised and haven't had any more chafing since. www.bright.net/~htmills/BuscaRudderChafe.jpg Tod
Thanks, Tod this helps. So basically you drilled through the gudgeon and placed a block in between? What did you use to hold the block? Maria ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: M17 Rudders
Maria,
Here is a picture showing the block. It would have been better if I had drilled the holes in the gudgeon slightly more aft (closer to the mahogany) than I did (I probably could have avoided the chafe that this picture illustrates). I had left the rudder mounted for a week or two, not raised completely and the line chafed on the transom gudgeon. I replaced the line and am careful not to leave the rudder in a position not quite fully raised and haven't had any more chafing since.
www.bright.net/~htmills/BuscaRudderChafe.jpg
Tod
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Yes, I drilled a hole clear thru the bottom rudder gudgeon (both straps). Then, (actually before....I had to know what size to drill) I bought a pin at my local hardware store. If you can find a clevis pin long enough, that would work fine. I don't think I found one long enough so I bought a pin at the hardware store. A clevis pin would be useable as is, but I had to drill the little holes in my pin for the split rings. Then I vewy cawefuwwy hold the block down inside the gudgeon and thread the pin through the whole lot. You can kind of see the end of the pin in my pic. The block I used was a Harken #292, I think. That is one with a swivel on it so the pin can be parallel to the block axis (i.e. the block can be oriented so the line comes in from the port side and goes back up to the stbd side instead of coming in at the front and going back up at the back against the mahogany). I hope I haven't just muddied the waters. There's probably a better way to do it, let alone describe it! :-) Tod -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Maria Jorge Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 8:36 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Rudders Thanks, Tod this helps. So basically you drilled through the gudgeon and placed a block in between? What did you use to hold the block? Maria ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: M17 Rudders
Maria,
Here is a picture showing the block. It would have been better if I had drilled the holes in the gudgeon slightly more aft (closer to the mahogany) than I did (I probably could have avoided the chafe that this picture illustrates). I had left the rudder mounted for a week or two, not raised completely and the line chafed on the transom gudgeon. I replaced the line and am careful not to leave the rudder in a position not quite fully raised and haven't had any more chafing since.
www.bright.net/~htmills/BuscaRudderChafe.jpg
Tod
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Tod, I too use a clam cleat to hold the rudder in the raised position. However, when the boat is in the water, the bouyancy of the rudder makes it rather easy to lift for the first half of the upward movement, and a good tug on the line, starting with the first movement, adds enough momentum to bring it the rest of the way with ease. Is it really necessary for the 2:1 mechanical advantage of the moving pulley? And you are a big guy, Tod, or is it that Bilbo's teeth are failing in his old age and needs all the help he can get. Good deck hands are hard to come by. I'm learning to use the Garmin GPSMAP 296 in the air. Hope I can take some of the experience to the BlueChart area. Give Bilbo an extra pat. Clarence M-17 #604 Carpe Ventum ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: "'Maria Jorge'" <mcjorge@bellsouth.net>; "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:18 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: M17 Rudders Yes, I drilled a hole clear thru the bottom rudder gudgeon (both straps). Then, (actually before....I had to know what size to drill) I bought a pin at my local hardware store. If you can find a clevis pin long enough, that would work fine. I don't think I found one long enough so I bought a pin at the hardware store. A clevis pin would be useable as is, but I had to drill the little holes in my pin for the split rings. Then I vewy cawefuwwy hold the block down inside the gudgeon and thread the pin through the whole lot. You can kind of see the end of the pin in my pic. The block I used was a Harken #292, I think. That is one with a swivel on it so the pin can be parallel to the block axis (i.e. the block can be oriented so the line comes in from the port side and goes back up to the stbd side instead of coming in at the front and going back up at the back against the mahogany). I hope I haven't just muddied the waters. There's probably a better way to do it, let alone describe it! :-) Tod -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Maria Jorge Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 8:36 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Rudders Thanks, Tod this helps. So basically you drilled through the gudgeon and placed a block in between? What did you use to hold the block? Maria ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: M17 Rudders
Maria,
Here is a picture showing the block. It would have been better if I had drilled the holes in the gudgeon slightly more aft (closer to the mahogany) than I did (I probably could have avoided the chafe that this picture illustrates). I had left the rudder mounted for a week or two, not raised completely and the line chafed on the transom gudgeon. I replaced the line and am careful not to leave the rudder in a position not quite fully raised and haven't had any more chafing since.
www.bright.net/~htmills/BuscaRudderChafe.jpg
Tod
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_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Well, that's a good point, Clarence. Perhaps the 2:1 isn't really needed. Maybe the thing for anyone contemplating the mod is to first tie the line to the rudder gudgeon and see if that works acceptably. Could maybe save a few dollars. One thing to watch: lines have been known to pop out of cam cleats on occasion, so when on the ramp it may be a good thing to fasten it more securely. It would be a bummer if the rudder should drop on the ramp. Thanks, Tod
Very nice installation Todd, I'm going to add it to my rudder. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: "'Maria Jorge'" <mcjorge@bellsouth.net>; "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 8:18 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: M17 Rudders Yes, I drilled a hole clear thru the bottom rudder gudgeon (both straps). Then, (actually before....I had to know what size to drill) I bought a pin at my local hardware store. If you can find a clevis pin long enough, that would work fine. I don't think I found one long enough so I bought a pin at the hardware store. A clevis pin would be useable as is, but I had to drill the little holes in my pin for the split rings. Then I vewy cawefuwwy hold the block down inside the gudgeon and thread the pin through the whole lot. You can kind of see the end of the pin in my pic. The block I used was a Harken #292, I think. That is one with a swivel on it so the pin can be parallel to the block axis (i.e. the block can be oriented so the line comes in from the port side and goes back up to the stbd side instead of coming in at the front and going back up at the back against the mahogany). I hope I haven't just muddied the waters. There's probably a better way to do it, let alone describe it! :-) Tod -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Maria Jorge Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 8:36 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Rudders Thanks, Tod this helps. So basically you drilled through the gudgeon and placed a block in between? What did you use to hold the block? Maria ----- Original Message ----- From: <htmills@bright.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: M17 Rudders
Maria,
Here is a picture showing the block. It would have been better if I had drilled the holes in the gudgeon slightly more aft (closer to the mahogany) than I did (I probably could have avoided the chafe that this picture illustrates). I had left the rudder mounted for a week or two, not raised completely and the line chafed on the transom gudgeon. I replaced the line and am careful not to leave the rudder in a position not quite fully raised and haven't had any more chafing since.
www.bright.net/~htmills/BuscaRudderChafe.jpg
Tod
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_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
. . . terminology . . . Isn't the gudgeon the thing mounted to the transom that receives the pin, whereas the pintle is the thing on the rudder with the pin . . . This arrangement, in some cases, being reversed? Nonetheless, the photo in this link very clearly shows a rudder arrangement my '84 M17 #389 never had . . . My piece like the one shown, that I thought was the pintle, was not open to receive the lifting rod, as with Tod's Busca . . . Mine had a solid pin . . . And I had three of these solid pins that mounted through three gudgeons (or pintles) identical to the one shown bolted to Tod's transom . . . I have never seen the standard M17 rudder lifting method up close . . . But from the pics and descripts, it makes sense how it works . . . Understand my frustration my first season sailing my 17', with the rudder lifting completely free with every grounding, and in the one case mentioned early, shearing a pintle (gudgeon?) bolt!!! I could see that, in an accidental grounding, the lifting mechanism would not save my transom, as I've have to be able to anticipate the shallows and raise the rudder to avoid catastrophe . . . Of course, you can point out that charts and depth-sounders could help one avoid such a problem . . . The chart DID help in Lake Huron, where I avoided trouble in the Les Chenaux, but let down my guard in Mackinac Island's harbor . . . This past summer I sailed Ontario's remote Lake Nipigon, up above Thunder Bay, Superior . . . We could find no nautical charts for Nipigon . . . A local fisherman and bait and tackle shop owner sold a land map to us and marked out shallows with a pen . . . This worked up to a point, but on the last day, anxious to get back to the launch and motoring at 3 to 4 knots, we grounded HARD on rocks . . . I sustained hull and keel damage that has since been repaired . . . But my rudder kicked up perfectly and I sustained no damage whatsoever . . . Don't know the outcome if I'd had the lifting mechanism, with the rudder extended . . . I've gotten in trouble voicing my observations lately, so please allow me to clarify: I AM NOT ADVOCATING ON BEHALF OF A KICKUP RUDDER CONFIGURATION ON AN M17, nor am I ARGUING AGAINST THE LIFTING RUDDER ON THE M17 . . . LET ME BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR: IF JERRY MONTGOMERY AND BOB EEG SAY A LIFTING SOLID MAHOGANY RUDDER IS SUPERIOR FROM THE STANDPOINTS OF SEAWORTHINESS, DURABILITY AND PERFORMANCE, YOU DARN WELL BETTER BELIEVE THAT LIFTING SOLID MAHOGANY RUDDERS ARE SUPERIOR FROM THE STANDPOINTS OF SEAWORTHINESS, DURABILITY AND PERFORMANCE!!!!! I'm just explaining what I had when I bought my 17', and the solution I've sought to accommodate the sail-camping and wilderness gunkholing I like to do . . . To each, ABSOLUTELY, his own . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: htmills@bright.net To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: M17 Rudders Maria, Here is a picture showing the block. It would have been better if I had drilled the holes in the gudgeon slightly more aft (closer to the mahogany) than I did (I probably could have avoided the chafe that this picture illustrates). I had left the rudder mounted for a week or two, not raised completely and the line chafed on the transom gudgeon. I replaced the line and am careful not to leave the rudder in a position not quite fully raised and haven't had any more chafing since. www.bright.net/~htmills/BuscaRudderChafe.jpg Tod
A pintle is the male fitting, a gudgeon is the female. Most dinghy rudders are made using a pair of each, sometimes with pintles on the rudder, other times with them on the transom instead. M-17's are a bit unusual in that they use gudeons on both rudder and transom with a separate pin to join them (at least that is the way Busca is made). Tod -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Craig F. Honshell Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:21 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: i'm confused by the . . . . . . terminology . . . Isn't the gudgeon the thing mounted to the transom that receives the pin, whereas the pintle is the thing on the rudder with the pin . . . This arrangement, in some cases, being reversed? Nonetheless, the photo in this link very clearly shows a rudder arrangement my '84 M17 #389 never had . . . My piece like the one shown, that I thought was the pintle, was not open to receive the lifting rod, as with Tod's Busca . . . Mine had a solid pin . . . And I had three of these solid pins that mounted through three gudgeons (or pintles) identical to the one shown bolted to Tod's transom . . . I have never seen the standard M17 rudder lifting method up close . . . But from the pics and descripts, it makes sense how it works . . . Understand my frustration my first season sailing my 17', with the rudder lifting completely free with every grounding, and in the one case mentioned early, shearing a pintle (gudgeon?) bolt!!! I could see that, in an accidental grounding, the lifting mechanism would not save my transom, as I've have to be able to anticipate the shallows and raise the rudder to avoid catastrophe . . . Of course, you can point out that charts and depth-sounders could help one avoid such a problem . . . The chart DID help in Lake Huron, where I avoided trouble in the Les Chenaux, but let down my guard in Mackinac Island's harbor . . . This past summer I sailed Ontario's remote Lake Nipigon, up above Thunder Bay, Superior . . . We could find no nautical charts for Nipigon . . . A local fisherman and bait and tackle shop owner sold a land map to us and marked out shallows with a pen . . . This worked up to a point, but on the last day, anxious to get back to the launch and motoring at 3 to 4 knots, we grounded HARD on rocks . . . I sustained hull and keel damage that has since been repaired . . . But my rudder kicked up perfectly and I sustained no damage whatsoever . . . Don't know the outcome if I'd had the lifting mechanism, with the rudder extended . . . I've gotten in trouble voicing my observations lately, so please allow me to clarify: I AM NOT ADVOCATING ON BEHALF OF A KICKUP RUDDER CONFIGURATION ON AN M17, nor am I ARGUING AGAINST THE LIFTING RUDDER ON THE M17 . . . LET ME BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR: IF JERRY MONTGOMERY AND BOB EEG SAY A LIFTING SOLID MAHOGANY RUDDER IS SUPERIOR FROM THE STANDPOINTS OF SEAWORTHINESS, DURABILITY AND PERFORMANCE, YOU DARN WELL BETTER BELIEVE THAT LIFTING SOLID MAHOGANY RUDDERS ARE SUPERIOR FROM THE STANDPOINTS OF SEAWORTHINESS, DURABILITY AND PERFORMANCE!!!!! I'm just explaining what I had when I bought my 17', and the solution I've sought to accommodate the sail-camping and wilderness gunkholing I like to do . . . To each, ABSOLUTELY, his own . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: htmills@bright.net To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: M17 Rudders Maria, Here is a picture showing the block. It would have been better if I had drilled the holes in the gudgeon slightly more aft (closer to the mahogany) than I did (I probably could have avoided the chafe that this picture illustrates). I had left the rudder mounted for a week or two, not raised completely and the line chafed on the transom gudgeon. I replaced the line and am careful not to leave the rudder in a position not quite fully raised and haven't had any more chafing since. www.bright.net/~htmills/BuscaRudderChafe.jpg Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Hi Craig I have the standard lifting rudder on mt 17 and a kick up rudder I made. I like the option of being able to choose which to use, and more often use the kick up version. (Shallow Bays and Lakes) As a question for Bob, why doesn't the factory offer a kick up for the 17? Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig F. Honshell" <chonshell@ia4u.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:21 PM Subject: M_Boats: i'm confused by the . . .
. . . terminology . . . Isn't the gudgeon the thing mounted to the transom that receives the pin, whereas the pintle is the thing on the rudder with the pin . . . This arrangement, in some cases, being reversed?
Nonetheless, the photo in this link very clearly shows a rudder arrangement my '84 M17 #389 never had . . .
My piece like the one shown, that I thought was the pintle, was not open to receive the lifting rod, as with Tod's Busca . . . Mine had a solid pin . . . And I had three of these solid pins that mounted through three gudgeons (or pintles) identical to the one shown bolted to Tod's transom . . .
I have never seen the standard M17 rudder lifting method up close . . . But from the pics and descripts, it makes sense how it works . . .
Understand my frustration my first season sailing my 17', with the rudder lifting completely free with every grounding, and in the one case mentioned early, shearing a pintle (gudgeon?) bolt!!!
I could see that, in an accidental grounding, the lifting mechanism would not save my transom, as I've have to be able to anticipate the shallows and raise the rudder to avoid catastrophe . . .
Of course, you can point out that charts and depth-sounders could help one avoid such a problem . . . The chart DID help in Lake Huron, where I avoided trouble in the Les Chenaux, but let down my guard in Mackinac Island's harbor . . .
This past summer I sailed Ontario's remote Lake Nipigon, up above Thunder Bay, Superior . . .
We could find no nautical charts for Nipigon . . .
A local fisherman and bait and tackle shop owner sold a land map to us and marked out shallows with a pen . . .
This worked up to a point, but on the last day, anxious to get back to the launch and motoring at 3 to 4 knots, we grounded HARD on rocks . . .
I sustained hull and keel damage that has since been repaired . . .
But my rudder kicked up perfectly and I sustained no damage whatsoever . . .
Don't know the outcome if I'd had the lifting mechanism, with the rudder extended . . .
I've gotten in trouble voicing my observations lately, so please allow me to clarify: I AM NOT ADVOCATING ON BEHALF OF A KICKUP RUDDER CONFIGURATION ON AN M17, nor am I ARGUING AGAINST THE LIFTING RUDDER ON THE M17 . . .
LET ME BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR: IF JERRY MONTGOMERY AND BOB EEG SAY A LIFTING SOLID MAHOGANY RUDDER IS SUPERIOR FROM THE STANDPOINTS OF SEAWORTHINESS, DURABILITY AND PERFORMANCE, YOU DARN WELL BETTER BELIEVE THAT LIFTING SOLID MAHOGANY RUDDERS ARE SUPERIOR FROM THE STANDPOINTS OF SEAWORTHINESS, DURABILITY AND PERFORMANCE!!!!!
I'm just explaining what I had when I bought my 17', and the solution I've sought to accommodate the sail-camping and wilderness gunkholing I like to do . . .
To each, ABSOLUTELY, his own . . .
----- Original Message ----- From: htmills@bright.net To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: M17 Rudders
Maria,
Here is a picture showing the block. It would have been better if I had drilled the holes in the gudgeon slightly more aft (closer to the mahogany) than I did (I probably could have avoided the chafe that this picture illustrates). I had left the rudder mounted for a week or two, not raised completely and the line chafed on the transom gudgeon. I replaced the line and am careful not to leave the rudder in a position not quite fully raised and haven't had any more chafing since.
www.bright.net/~htmills/BuscaRudderChafe.jpg
Tod _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
participants (7)
-
Bob -
Clarence Andrews -
Craig F. Honshell -
Frederick M Berthrong -
htmills＠bright.net -
Maria Jorge -
Wayne Yeargain