Any suggestions for fixing this cracked Pintle on my M15? I'm hoping to meet you guys in person for the first time at the Wrinkleboat Ran-Tan but can't unless I fix this. I'm in the Sacramento area. I e-mailed some TIG welders on Craigslist and nobody will reply to me- I guess they don't want the work or can't do this sort of thing. I found the patent for Kurt Pfahl who invented this type of locking pintle in 1977 but can't find any record of if he's still alive or still making them new. Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
I got ahold of RudderCraft in Idaho and they are sending me a pintle that matches the dimensions exactly, but with a cotter pin instead of the factory locking notch. See you guys next week! Tyler On Jan 9, 2015, at 10:19 AM, Tyler Backman wrote:
Any suggestions for fixing this cracked Pintle on my M15? I'm hoping to meet you guys in person for the first time at the Wrinkleboat Ran-Tan but can't unless I fix this. I'm in the Sacramento area. I e-mailed some TIG welders on Craigslist and nobody will reply to me- I guess they don't want the work or can't do this sort of thing. I found the patent for Kurt Pfahl who invented this type of locking pintle in 1977 but can't find any record of if he's still alive or still making them new.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant" <pintle.jpg>
Tyler- Kurt retired at least 20 years ago and I haven't had any contact for years. A good guy and a very smart engineer, as you would expect for a German. Wish someone was making the pintles; we'd consider using them on the upcoming Sage 15. They worked great and yours is the first one I've heard of that failed. I'm glad that RudderCraft is making something similar. See you at Lake Pleasant. Jerry -----Original Message----- From: Tyler Backman Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 10:57 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: cracked pintle I got ahold of RudderCraft in Idaho and they are sending me a pintle that matches the dimensions exactly, but with a cotter pin instead of the factory locking notch. See you guys next week! Tyler On Jan 9, 2015, at 10:19 AM, Tyler Backman wrote:
Any suggestions for fixing this cracked Pintle on my M15? I'm hoping to meet you guys in person for the first time at the Wrinkleboat Ran-Tan but can't unless I fix this. I'm in the Sacramento area. I e-mailed some TIG welders on Craigslist and nobody will reply to me- I guess they don't want the work or can't do this sort of thing. I found the patent for Kurt Pfahl who invented this type of locking pintle in 1977 but can't find any record of if he's still alive or still making them new.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant" <pintle.jpg>
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Jerry, It's a shame nobody is manufacturing his inventions anymore, this is a great pintle design. It seems unlikely to me that the pintle could have failed during actual operation- maybe it was damaged in storage by the previous owner. The specs on this pintle you used on a 15' boat are comparable to those used on the O'day 26 and many other boats with 5-10x the displacement. My Catalina 22 has a much smaller pintle and the forces on the tiller are an order of magnitude greater. Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant" On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:54 AM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
Tyler- Kurt retired at least 20 years ago and I haven't had any contact for years. A good guy and a very smart engineer, as you would expect for a German. Wish someone was making the pintles; we'd consider using them on the upcoming Sage 15. They worked great and yours is the first one I've heard of that failed. I'm glad that RudderCraft is making something similar.
See you at Lake Pleasant.
Jerry
The Wharram designs use ropes vice pintles/grudgeons. It works for them because of that skeg which allows for a good mechanical connection the length of the rudder. See: http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/rudder-lashings-instead-of-pint... Don't know if such a design would work or apply to a design like a Montgomery. Interesting nonetheless..... Jerry W On Sat, 2015-01-10 at 08:32 -0800, Tyler Backman wrote:
Jerry,
It's a shame nobody is manufacturing his inventions anymore, this is a great pintle design.
It seems unlikely to me that the pintle could have failed during actual operation- maybe it was damaged in storage by the previous owner. The specs on this pintle you used on a 15' boat are comparable to those used on the O'day 26 and many other boats with 5-10x the displacement. My Catalina 22 has a much smaller pintle and the forces on the tiller are an order of magnitude greater.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:54 AM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
Tyler- Kurt retired at least 20 years ago and I haven't had any contact for years. A good guy and a very smart engineer, as you would expect for a German. Wish someone was making the pintles; we'd consider using them on the upcoming Sage 15. They worked great and yours is the first one I've heard of that failed. I'm glad that RudderCraft is making something similar.
See you at Lake Pleasant.
Jerry
It's actually not specifically to do with the skeg. It's the distribution of force across multiple figure eight lashings, and multiple loops in each lashing, instead of concentrated in two very small area of contact as with a pair of pintle & gudgeon connections. There could simply be more lashings on the upper area of the connection, if there were not a skeg forward of the lower part of the rudder to lash to. On a flat transom boat like a Monty, one would have to attach a vertical piece the thickness of the rudder to the transom, to stitch the rudder itself to. But it wouldn't need to extend below the hull like the skeg on a Wharram. cheers, John S. On 01/10/2015 08:38 AM, Gerald Wolczanski wrote:
The Wharram designs use ropes vice pintles/grudgeons. It works for them because of that skeg which allows for a good mechanical connection the length of the rudder. See: http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/rudder-lashings-instead-of-pint...
Don't know if such a design would work or apply to a design like a Montgomery. Interesting nonetheless.....
Jerry W
On Sat, 2015-01-10 at 08:32 -0800, Tyler Backman wrote:
Jerry,
It's a shame nobody is manufacturing his inventions anymore, this is a great pintle design.
It seems unlikely to me that the pintle could have failed during actual operation- maybe it was damaged in storage by the previous owner. The specs on this pintle you used on a 15' boat are comparable to those used on the O'day 26 and many other boats with 5-10x the displacement. My Catalina 22 has a much smaller pintle and the forces on the tiller are an order of magnitude greater.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:54 AM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
Tyler- Kurt retired at least 20 years ago and I haven't had any contact for years. A good guy and a very smart engineer, as you would expect for a German. Wish someone was making the pintles; we'd consider using them on the upcoming Sage 15. They worked great and yours is the first one I've heard of that failed. I'm glad that RudderCraft is making something similar.
See you at Lake Pleasant.
Jerry
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Does someone have a picture or link to pictures of these pintles? I've seen them, but it has been a while. I don't remember them being anything more than a stock item. I ask as I'm currently working on another project that is going to require some custom pintles and gudgeons and if I'm missing something, I'd like to know. On Jan 10, 2015, at 10:32 AM, Tyler Backman wrote:
Jerry,
It's a shame nobody is manufacturing his inventions anymore, this is a great pintle design.
It seems unlikely to me that the pintle could have failed during actual operation- maybe it was damaged in storage by the previous owner. The specs on this pintle you used on a 15' boat are comparable to those used on the O'day 26 and many other boats with 5-10x the displacement. My Catalina 22 has a much smaller pintle and the forces on the tiller are an order of magnitude greater.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:54 AM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
Tyler- Kurt retired at least 20 years ago and I haven't had any contact for years. A good guy and a very smart engineer, as you would expect for a German. Wish someone was making the pintles; we'd consider using them on the upcoming Sage 15. They worked great and yours is the first one I've heard of that failed. I'm glad that RudderCraft is making something similar.
See you at Lake Pleasant.
Jerry
There was a photo in my first e-mail, yesterday. The pintle has a machined groove, and there is a piece of spring stainless on the transom that locks into the groove when the rudder is seated, to keep it from popping out. If you're making custom pintles and gudgeons you could probably get a groove like this machined into the pintle, and add a stainless lock spring of some kind to the gudgeon. Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant" On Jan 10, 2015, at 8:54 AM, Howard Audsley wrote:
Does someone have a picture or link to pictures of these pintles? I've seen them, but it has been a while. I don't remember them being anything more than a stock item.
I ask as I'm currently working on another project that is going to require some custom pintles and gudgeons and if I'm missing something, I'd like to know.
On Jan 10, 2015, at 10:32 AM, Tyler Backman wrote:
Jerry,
It's a shame nobody is manufacturing his inventions anymore, this is a great pintle design.
It seems unlikely to me that the pintle could have failed during actual operation- maybe it was damaged in storage by the previous owner. The specs on this pintle you used on a 15' boat are comparable to those used on the O'day 26 and many other boats with 5-10x the displacement. My Catalina 22 has a much smaller pintle and the forces on the tiller are an order of magnitude greater.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:54 AM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
Tyler- Kurt retired at least 20 years ago and I haven't had any contact for years. A good guy and a very smart engineer, as you would expect for a German. Wish someone was making the pintles; we'd consider using them on the upcoming Sage 15. They worked great and yours is the first one I've heard of that failed. I'm glad that RudderCraft is making something similar.
See you at Lake Pleasant.
Jerry
Sorry about missing the photo. For some reason, my spam filter put it in the junk folder. I don't remember seeing that on the M15's. Something I missed. Certainly not a stock item to be found everywhere. The pintle / gudgeon arrangement I'm working with is more like that found on the M17, except I'm using 1/2" stainless bolts instead of the rudder pin, and also, mine is going to kick up like the M15 does. I've always been intrigued by the lifting design of the M15 rudder. Never have understood how it worked. The other design change that most folks do not appear to have trouble with is the pivoting or kick up rudders. All the side leverage exerted on the rudder transfers to the rudder box and on to the transom to steer the boat. We have come a long way from full keel rudders that had to attach at several places along the keel to be deemed strong enough, to spade rudders and now to these kickup rudders. You would not think them strong enough to take on all that leverage and torque, but apparently, they are. On Jan 10, 2015, at 11:01 AM, Tyler Backman wrote:
There was a photo in my first e-mail, yesterday. The pintle has a machined groove, and there is a piece of spring stainless on the transom that locks into the groove when the rudder is seated, to keep it from popping out.
If you're making custom pintles and gudgeons you could probably get a groove like this machined into the pintle, and add a stainless lock spring of some kind to the gudgeon.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Jan 10, 2015, at 8:54 AM, Howard Audsley wrote:
Does someone have a picture or link to pictures of these pintles? I've seen them, but it has been a while. I don't remember them being anything more than a stock item.
I ask as I'm currently working on another project that is going to require some custom pintles and gudgeons and if I'm missing something, I'd like to know.
On Jan 10, 2015, at 10:32 AM, Tyler Backman wrote:
Jerry,
It's a shame nobody is manufacturing his inventions anymore, this is a great pintle design.
It seems unlikely to me that the pintle could have failed during actual operation- maybe it was damaged in storage by the previous owner. The specs on this pintle you used on a 15' boat are comparable to those used on the O'day 26 and many other boats with 5-10x the displacement. My Catalina 22 has a much smaller pintle and the forces on the tiller are an order of magnitude greater.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:54 AM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
Tyler- Kurt retired at least 20 years ago and I haven't had any contact for years. A good guy and a very smart engineer, as you would expect for a German. Wish someone was making the pintles; we'd consider using them on the upcoming Sage 15. They worked great and yours is the first one I've heard of that failed. I'm glad that RudderCraft is making something similar.
See you at Lake Pleasant.
Jerry
On 1/9/2015 12:57 PM, Tyler Backman wrote: Hi Tyler, My suggestion would be to find a vendor that does work for the aircraft industry. There should be plenty in your area. If they do welding on any of their parts, they'll have the capability of repairing your S/S pintle. Another thought would be to call a High School or Trade School that has a welding class. They probably have TIG or MIG welding equipment and can do the repair. It would be a nice project for one of the students. Ciao, Connie
I got ahold of RudderCraft in Idaho and they are sending me a pintle that matches the dimensions exactly, but with a cotter pin instead of the factory locking notch. See you guys next week!
Tyler
On Jan 9, 2015, at 10:19 AM, Tyler Backman wrote:
Any suggestions for fixing this cracked Pintle on my M15? I'm hoping to meet you guys in person for the first time at the Wrinkleboat Ran-Tan but can't unless I fix this. I'm in the Sacramento area. I e-mailed some TIG welders on Craigslist and nobody will reply to me- I guess they don't want the work or can't do this sort of thing. I found the patent for Kurt Pfahl who invented this type of locking pintle in 1977 but can't find any record of if he's still alive or still making them new.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant" <pintle.jpg>
participants (6)
-
Conbert Benneck -
Gerald Wolczanski -
Howard Audsley -
jerry＠jerrymontgomery.org -
John Schinnerer -
Tyler Backman