No problem Tod, We'll make the 22' hull and deck from that new composite of Oxygen, Nitrogen and Jerry-gen. the mast will be unobtanium alloy, Ballast will be Salium, dense when wet, but light when dry. Martian low cost labor will help, but shipping costs might be up there? Send your deposit to me in US dollars cash. sal M15 "Justus" '86 #361 - Jerry built In a message dated 3/16/2012 9:12:23 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, htmills@zoominternet.net writes: What we need is a boat about 22' long, weighs 500# with a mast raised by hand so light a 5 year old could manage it, costs $10,000 or less (including trailer). What is so tough about that????? Lol Tod
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of jerry montgomery Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 6:52 PM To: montgomery forum Subject: M_Boats: (no subject)
interesting that people are talking about a larger boat, but I really don;'t think it's in the cards because of economic reasons. You can almost price boats by the cube of the length, so if a 17 costs 25K, a 21 would have to sell for a whopping 46K for the manufacture to stay in business. There are too many old 20's and 22's on the market for 10K for this to work in the near future. Possibly a 19, which would only be a 17 with more elbowroom, but you would also need a mast putter- upper, a bigger truck, a stronger crew, a 4K suit of sails, etc etc.
Even so, I'm putting your comments in a folder for long-term safe keeping!
jerry
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Jerry & Sal, As much as I love my '85 M15, I think there is much to be said for the design of the old Sparrow (16). I was grateful to have an opportunity at Havasu this year sit below decks in Gary Peaslee's Sparrow, and was simply amazed at how much usable space there was in the house for a 16 footer. Gary and I could actually both sit below, opposing each other, with plenty of legroom and headroom (I am 6' tall). Yes, quarter-berth sleeping arrangements do raise the freeboard and cockpit, but I think it's an excellent compromise for a small pocket cruiser. Just imagine if such a design emerged with wrinkles all over :-) Neil Dorf ' 85 m15 "TwoCan" NorCal Sent from my iPad On Mar 17, 2012, at 12:37 PM, SALGLESSER@aol.com wrote:
No problem Tod,
We'll make the 22' hull and deck from that new composite of Oxygen, Nitrogen and Jerry-gen. the mast will be unobtanium alloy, Ballast will be Salium, dense when wet, but light when dry. Martian low cost labor will help, but shipping costs might be up there? Send your deposit to me in US dollars cash.
sal
M15 "Justus" '86 #361 - Jerry built
In a message dated 3/16/2012 9:12:23 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, htmills@zoominternet.net writes:
What we need is a boat about 22' long, weighs 500# with a mast raised by hand so light a 5 year old could manage it, costs $10,000 or less (including trailer). What is so tough about that????? Lol
Tod
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of jerry montgomery Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 6:52 PM To: montgomery forum Subject: M_Boats: (no subject)
interesting that people are talking about a larger boat, but I really don;'t think it's in the cards because of economic reasons. You can almost price boats by the cube of the length, so if a 17 costs 25K, a 21 would have to sell for a whopping 46K for the manufacture to stay in business. There are too many old 20's and 22's on the market for 10K for this to work in the near future. Possibly a 19, which would only be a 17 with more elbowroom, but you would also need a mast putter- upper, a bigger truck, a stronger crew, a 4K suit of sails, etc etc.
Even so, I'm putting your comments in a folder for long-term safe keeping!
jerry
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 6309 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
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I have a M17 and am thinking about stepping down to an M15, mainly because it takes so long to rig my boat. If I drive two hours to a launch, 45 min to rig, sail for 4 or 5 hours, another 45 min to de-rig add in time to BS with the gang, and another 2 hours home, it makes for a long day. Dick Herman can rig or de-rig his Sun Cat in 15 min. Much better. When you design the new 15, maybe you can take a look at how the ComPac folks do their rigging. ;-) Other than the time it takes to set it up, the M17 is a great boat. Pretty too. ;-) -----Original Message----- From: Neil Dorf Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 2:03 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: (no subject) Jerry & Sal, As much as I love my '85 M15, I think there is much to be said for the design of the old Sparrow (16). I was grateful to have an opportunity at Havasu this year sit below decks in Gary Peaslee's Sparrow, and was simply amazed at how much usable space there was in the house for a 16 footer. Gary and I could actually both sit below, opposing each other, with plenty of legroom and headroom (I am 6' tall). Yes, quarter-berth sleeping arrangements do raise the freeboard and cockpit, but I think it's an excellent compromise for a small pocket cruiser. Just imagine if such a design emerged with wrinkles all over :-) Neil Dorf ' 85 m15 "TwoCan" NorCal Sent from my iPad On Mar 17, 2012, at 12:37 PM, SALGLESSER@aol.com wrote:
No problem Tod,
We'll make the 22' hull and deck from that new composite of Oxygen, Nitrogen and Jerry-gen. the mast will be unobtanium alloy, Ballast will be Salium, dense when wet, but light when dry. Martian low cost labor will help, but shipping costs might be up there? Send your deposit to me in US dollars cash.
sal
M15 "Justus" '86 #361 - Jerry built
In a message dated 3/16/2012 9:12:23 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, htmills@zoominternet.net writes:
What we need is a boat about 22' long, weighs 500# with a mast raised by hand so light a 5 year old could manage it, costs $10,000 or less (including trailer). What is so tough about that????? Lol
Tod
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of jerry montgomery Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 6:52 PM To: montgomery forum Subject: M_Boats: (no subject)
interesting that people are talking about a larger boat, but I really don;'t think it's in the cards because of economic reasons. You can almost price boats by the cube of the length, so if a 17 costs 25K, a 21 would have to sell for a whopping 46K for the manufacture to stay in business. There are too many old 20's and 22's on the market for 10K for this to work in the near future. Possibly a 19, which would only be a 17 with more elbowroom, but you would also need a mast putter- upper, a bigger truck, a stronger crew, a 4K suit of sails, etc etc.
Even so, I'm putting your comments in a folder for long-term safe keeping!
jerry
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 6309 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
The Professional version does not have this message
Lots of good ideas out there. Given the constraints it is an interesting thought process. My version of the constraints: 15 feet or less for ease and cost of everything Definitely beachable/shallow draft - ( keel/CB have a tough time at the Texas 200, Cedar Key, Florida 120 and the outerbanks 150 getting to the beach and meeting up with the other participants. - Getting out of the boat at the big reservoirs - Lake Havasu, Lake Powell, Lake Mead is a chilling prospect with the 50 deg water temps. Definitely sitting head room. A respectable sailing boat - in its size and weight range. Think about some of the innovations of other designers, like Welsford, Bolger, Layden (previoulsy mentioned), and Oughtred.. The Sun Cat is not only easily rigged it points very well and gives the M17 a good run for it's money speed wise. In a breezy 1 week cruise on the Chesapeake it was always right up there with the M17s. How about a 15 foot boat with a cruising bias - similar to the M15 but a little more in the cabin and a little less in the cockpit size. An offset retractable keel - Off set centerboards are frequently used by Welsford, Bolger and Oughtred to open up the cabin space. I guess if you move the centerboard off center it should be called a bilge board or something. A Cat boat may allow the keel or CB to move farther forward to give more flexibility to the interior design. No space for a porta-potty but provide space for a folding dry toilet like pett's. A hinged cabin roof from Sam Rable's Titmouse to get the sitting headroom at anchor. The hinged roof may be simpler and more cost effective than a complete pop top but may not provide enough head room. If not then a pop top. Don't build up the windage/freeboard to get the sitting head room and don't lower the bunks any further than the M15. No center post for a more open interior like the M15. Stayless mast with amast tabernackle with a hinge like the SunCat. This may not be possible and still avoid a compression post. No backstay 3/4 rig for better balance under a reefed main. ( assuming it is not a cat boat or a balanced lug ) If you think about a cat boat in the 15 foot range you could simplify the rig even more and maybe go with Balance Lug. That Scamp sails like a witch :-) I have had the Sherpa out with it's balance lug and have got it to the point where it is pointing quite well. The Matt Layden infinitely reefable balanced lug has proven it's ability and flexibility on the Paradox. Confused yet? I certainly am. I think I ended up with a 15 ft, somewhat beamy, stayless mast , singular retractable bilge keel with a blanced lug and a pop top cabin. As an option, if the balance lug is not commercially viable, you could put in a boring conventional 3/4 sloop rig with stays. As to lapstrake,I do like the lapstrake cosmetics but the lapstrake chuckle with a slight chop at anchor has cost me some sleep on more than one occasion. Thanks Doug Kelch M15 G Sandpiper 565 Sherpa On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 5:03 PM, Ed <whitehead361@gmail.com> wrote:
I have a M17 and am thinking about stepping down to an M15, mainly because it takes so long to rig my boat. If I drive two hours to a launch, 45 min to rig, sail for 4 or 5 hours, another 45 min to de-rig add in time to BS with the gang, and another 2 hours home, it makes for a long day. Dick Herman can rig or de-rig his Sun Cat in 15 min. Much better. When you design the new 15, maybe you can take a look at how the ComPac folks do their rigging. ;-) Other than the time it takes to set it up, the M17 is a great boat. Pretty too. ;-)
-----Original Message----- From: Neil Dorf Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 2:03 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: (no subject)
Jerry & Sal,
As much as I love my '85 M15, I think there is much to be said for the design of the old Sparrow (16). I was grateful to have an opportunity at Havasu this year sit below decks in Gary Peaslee's Sparrow, and was simply amazed at how much usable space there was in the house for a 16 footer. Gary and I could actually both sit below, opposing each other, with plenty of legroom and headroom (I am 6' tall). Yes, quarter-berth sleeping arrangements do raise the freeboard and cockpit, but I think it's an excellent compromise for a small pocket cruiser.
Just imagine if such a design emerged with wrinkles all over :-)
Neil Dorf ' 85 m15 "TwoCan" NorCal
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 17, 2012, at 12:37 PM, SALGLESSER@aol.com wrote:
No problem Tod,
We'll make the 22' hull and deck from that new composite of Oxygen, Nitrogen and Jerry-gen. the mast will be unobtanium alloy, Ballast will be Salium, dense when wet, but light when dry. Martian low cost labor will help, but shipping costs might be up there? Send your deposit to me in US dollars cash.
sal
M15 "Justus" '86 #361 - Jerry built
In a message dated 3/16/2012 9:12:23 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, htmills@zoominternet.net writes:
What we need is a boat about 22' long, weighs 500# with a mast raised by hand so light a 5 year old could manage it, costs $10,000 or less (including trailer). What is so tough about that????? Lol
Tod
-----Original Message-----
From: montgomery_boats-bounces@**mailman.xmission.com<montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> [mailto:montgomery_boats-**bounces@mailman.xmission.com<montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com>] On Behalf Of jerry montgomery Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 6:52 PM To: montgomery forum Subject: M_Boats: (no subject)
interesting that people are talking about a larger boat, but I really don;'t think it's in the cards because of economic reasons. You can almost price boats by the cube of the length, so if a 17 costs 25K, a 21 would have to sell for a whopping 46K for the manufacture to stay in business. There are too many old 20's and 22's on the market for 10K for this to work in the near future. Possibly a 19, which would only be a 17 with more elbowroom, but you would also need a mast putter- upper, a bigger truck, a stronger crew, a 4K suit of sails, etc etc.
Even so, I'm putting your comments in a folder for long-term safe keeping!
jerry
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 6309 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
The Professional version does not have this message
Hi Jerry, I had a thought. Dangerous, I know but . . . I don't know much about ergonomics, and this might not do the trick, here's my .02. To make a sitting area behind the bunks, reduce the length the bunks and cockpit each just a little. Raise the cabin floor just a few inches, but in the sitting area behind the bunks, curve the cabin floor on each side, aft the bunks but not the center area aft the space between the bunks, so it fits a human bottom. So the crew's bottom might actually be a bit lower than the floor, but the crew's back would fit against the curve of the hull. I find a similar position very comfortable in my Montgomery 7'11", with my legs draped over the centerboard trunk. Also, raising the floor could allow the keel/cb to intrude into the hull those few inches, reducing draft accordingly. Might be complicated to build, but could possibly solve the sitting headroom issue without raising the cabin top. My thoughts on beachablility are that it's a desirable characteristic and would ease launching, but I would not want to sacrifice more than a smidgeon of windward ability. Although a db might improve performance with it's more optimal shape, for peace of mind I'd prefer the keel/swinging cb arrangement. Bill Riker M15 - #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- From: douglas kelch Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 7:51 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: (no subject) Lots of good ideas out there. Given the constraints it is an interesting thought process. My version of the constraints: 15 feet or less for ease and cost of everything Definitely beachable/shallow draft - ( keel/CB have a tough time at the Texas 200, Cedar Key, Florida 120 and the outerbanks 150 getting to the beach and meeting up with the other participants. - Getting out of the boat at the big reservoirs - Lake Havasu, Lake Powell, Lake Mead is a chilling prospect with the 50 deg water temps. Definitely sitting head room. A respectable sailing boat - in its size and weight range. Think about some of the innovations of other designers, like Welsford, Bolger, Layden (previoulsy mentioned), and Oughtred.. The Sun Cat is not only easily rigged it points very well and gives the M17 a good run for it's money speed wise. In a breezy 1 week cruise on the Chesapeake it was always right up there with the M17s. How about a 15 foot boat with a cruising bias - similar to the M15 but a little more in the cabin and a little less in the cockpit size. An offset retractable keel - Off set centerboards are frequently used by Welsford, Bolger and Oughtred to open up the cabin space. I guess if you move the centerboard off center it should be called a bilge board or something. A Cat boat may allow the keel or CB to move farther forward to give more flexibility to the interior design. No space for a porta-potty but provide space for a folding dry toilet like pett's. A hinged cabin roof from Sam Rable's Titmouse to get the sitting headroom at anchor. The hinged roof may be simpler and more cost effective than a complete pop top but may not provide enough head room. If not then a pop top. Don't build up the windage/freeboard to get the sitting head room and don't lower the bunks any further than the M15. No center post for a more open interior like the M15. Stayless mast with amast tabernackle with a hinge like the SunCat. This may not be possible and still avoid a compression post. No backstay 3/4 rig for better balance under a reefed main. ( assuming it is not a cat boat or a balanced lug ) If you think about a cat boat in the 15 foot range you could simplify the rig even more and maybe go with Balance Lug. That Scamp sails like a witch :-) I have had the Sherpa out with it's balance lug and have got it to the point where it is pointing quite well. The Matt Layden infinitely reefable balanced lug has proven it's ability and flexibility on the Paradox. Confused yet? I certainly am. I think I ended up with a 15 ft, somewhat beamy, stayless mast , singular retractable bilge keel with a blanced lug and a pop top cabin. As an option, if the balance lug is not commercially viable, you could put in a boring conventional 3/4 sloop rig with stays. As to lapstrake,I do like the lapstrake cosmetics but the lapstrake chuckle with a slight chop at anchor has cost me some sleep on more than one occasion. Thanks Doug Kelch M15 G Sandpiper 565 Sherpa On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 5:03 PM, Ed <whitehead361@gmail.com> wrote:
I have a M17 and am thinking about stepping down to an M15, mainly because it takes so long to rig my boat. If I drive two hours to a launch, 45 min to rig, sail for 4 or 5 hours, another 45 min to de-rig add in time to BS with the gang, and another 2 hours home, it makes for a long day. Dick Herman can rig or de-rig his Sun Cat in 15 min. Much better. When you design the new 15, maybe you can take a look at how the ComPac folks do their rigging. ;-) Other than the time it takes to set it up, the M17 is a great boat. Pretty too. ;-)
-----Original Message----- From: Neil Dorf Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 2:03 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: (no subject)
Jerry & Sal,
As much as I love my '85 M15, I think there is much to be said for the design of the old Sparrow (16). I was grateful to have an opportunity at Havasu this year sit below decks in Gary Peaslee's Sparrow, and was simply amazed at how much usable space there was in the house for a 16 footer. Gary and I could actually both sit below, opposing each other, with plenty of legroom and headroom (I am 6' tall). Yes, quarter-berth sleeping arrangements do raise the freeboard and cockpit, but I think it's an excellent compromise for a small pocket cruiser.
Just imagine if such a design emerged with wrinkles all over :-)
Neil Dorf ' 85 m15 "TwoCan" NorCal
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 17, 2012, at 12:37 PM, SALGLESSER@aol.com wrote:
No problem Tod,
We'll make the 22' hull and deck from that new composite of Oxygen, Nitrogen and Jerry-gen. the mast will be unobtanium alloy, Ballast will be Salium, dense when wet, but light when dry. Martian low cost labor will help, but shipping costs might be up there? Send your deposit to me in US dollars cash.
sal
M15 "Justus" '86 #361 - Jerry built
In a message dated 3/16/2012 9:12:23 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, htmills@zoominternet.net writes:
What we need is a boat about 22' long, weighs 500# with a mast raised by hand so light a 5 year old could manage it, costs $10,000 or less (including trailer). What is so tough about that????? Lol
Tod
-----Original Message-----
From: montgomery_boats-bounces@**mailman.xmission.com<montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> [mailto:montgomery_boats-**bounces@mailman.xmission.com<montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com>] On Behalf Of jerry montgomery Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 6:52 PM To: montgomery forum Subject: M_Boats: (no subject)
interesting that people are talking about a larger boat, but I really don;'t think it's in the cards because of economic reasons. You can almost price boats by the cube of the length, so if a 17 costs 25K, a 21 would have to sell for a whopping 46K for the manufacture to stay in business. There are too many old 20's and 22's on the market for 10K for this to work in the near future. Possibly a 19, which would only be a 17 with more elbowroom, but you would also need a mast putter- upper, a bigger truck, a stronger crew, a 4K suit of sails, etc etc.
Even so, I'm putting your comments in a folder for long-term safe keeping!
jerry
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 6309 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
The Professional version does not have this message
participants (5)
-
douglas kelch -
Ed -
Neil Dorf -
SALGLESSER＠aol.com -
William B Riker