Just curious what the preferred grill mount is for the m23 if you have the little round magma one. I see Dauntless had it drop out and down just a hair off the stern on starboard side. (Can see on you tube under dauntless) Can an m23 do 8 knots ... In shore costal on lake Minnetonka.... I just restored one but have never sailer her! I think according to Bones it will do about 6.5. Any other m23 owners have any thought to add here? Ps how many m23 owners are in Minnesota ... Are there more than two.?.? Fair and fresh winds to all of you. J Josh Bloom Principal B.C.R.E. | Retail Services 790 Cleveland Avenue South | Suite 206<x-apple-data-detectors://3/0> St. Paul, MN 55116<x-apple-data-detectors://3/0> T 651 315 7863<tel:651%20315%207863> | C 651 207 3157<tel:651%20207%203157> <mailto:josh@bloomcommercial.com> View My Listings<http://www.bloomcommercial.com/index.html> josh@bloomcommercial.com<mailto:josh@bloomcommercial.com> www.bloomcommercial.com<x-apple-msg-load://8D5A4CE5-4859-4560-A23C-019F595F9D3F/www.bloomcommercial.com>
Josh, I’m in White Bear Lake and just purchased an M23. Just got the mast up yesterday and washed the sails today. Hopefully, I’ll get her launched in the next week or so. Thanks, Rob On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Josh Bloom <josh@bloomcommercial.com> wrote:
Just curious what the preferred grill mount is for the m23 if you have the little round magma one. I see Dauntless had it drop out and down just a hair off the stern on starboard side. (Can see on you tube under dauntless)
Can an m23 do 8 knots ... In shore costal on lake Minnetonka.... I just restored one but have never sailer her! I think according to Bones it will do about 6.5. Any other m23 owners have any thought to add here?
Ps how many m23 owners are in Minnesota ... Are there more than two.?.?
Fair and fresh winds to all of you.
J
Josh Bloom Principal B.C.R.E. | Retail Services 790 Cleveland Avenue South | Suite 206<x-apple-data-detectors://3/0> St. Paul, MN 55116<x-apple-data-detectors://3/0> T 651 315 7863<tel:651%20315%207863> | C 651 207 3157<tel:651%20207%203157> <mailto:josh@bloomcommercial.com> View My Listings< http://www.bloomcommercial.com/index.html> josh@bloomcommercial.com<mailto:josh@bloomcommercial.com> www.bloomcommercial.com <x-apple-msg-load://8D5A4CE5-4859-4560-A23C-019F595F9D3F/ www.bloomcommercial.com>
On 7/19/2016 2:39 PM, Rob Wood wrote: Hi Josh, Maximum hull speed is a function of waterline length. The longer the waterline the faster the ship can sail. Our old 29-footer would sail at 5.5 to 6.0 knots with about 12 knots of wind, on the ocean. If the wind increased I might see the occasional 6.5 knots. Therefore I hardly think that an M23 can reach 8 knots, unless the situation is exceptional: with spinnaker; going downwind; optimum wind strength; relatively flat seas.... Connie ex M15 ex Northeast 38 ex Tripp-Lentsch 29
Josh,
I’m in White Bear Lake and just purchased an M23. Just got the mast up yesterday and washed the sails today. Hopefully, I’ll get her launched in the next week or so.
Thanks,
Rob
On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Josh Bloom <josh@bloomcommercial.com> wrote:
Just curious what the preferred grill mount is for the m23 if you have the little round magma one. I see Dauntless had it drop out and down just a hair off the stern on starboard side. (Can see on you tube under dauntless)
Can an m23 do 8 knots ... In shore costal on lake Minnetonka.... I just restored one but have never sailer her! I think according to Bones it will do about 6.5. Any other m23 owners have any thought to add here?
Ps how many m23 owners are in Minnesota ... Are there more than two.?.?
Fair and fresh winds to all of you.
J
Josh Bloom Principal B.C.R.E. | Retail Services 790 Cleveland Avenue South | Suite 206<x-apple-data-detectors://3/0> St. Paul, MN 55116<x-apple-data-detectors://3/0> T 651 315 7863<tel:651%20315%207863> | C 651 207 3157<tel:651%20207%203157> <mailto:josh@bloomcommercial.com> View My Listings< http://www.bloomcommercial.com/index.html> josh@bloomcommercial.com<mailto:josh@bloomcommercial.com> www.bloomcommercial.com <x-apple-msg-load://8D5A4CE5-4859-4560-A23C-019F595F9D3F/ www.bloomcommercial.com>
M23 waterline about 21'10". hull speed is about 6.3 kts. otherwise i'm in agreement with what Connie wrote. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7/19/2016 2:39 PM, Rob Wood wrote:
Hi Josh,
Maximum hull speed is a function of waterline length. The longer the waterline the faster the ship can sail.
Our old 29-footer would sail at 5.5 to 6.0 knots with about 12 knots of wind, on the ocean.
If the wind increased I might see the occasional 6.5 knots.
Therefore I hardly think that an M23 can reach 8 knots, unless the situation is exceptional: with spinnaker; going downwind; optimum wind strength; relatively flat seas....
Connie
ex M15 ex Northeast 38 ex Tripp-Lentsch 29
On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Josh Bloom <josh@bloomcommercial.com> wrote:
Just curious what the preferred grill mount is for the m23 if you have the
little round magma one. I see Dauntless had it drop out and down just a hair off the stern on starboard side. (Can see on you tube under dauntless)
Can an m23 do 8 knots ... In shore costal on lake Minnetonka.... I just restored one but have never sailer her! I think according to Bones it will do about 6.5. Any other m23 owners have any thought to add here?
Ps how many m23 owners are in Minnesota ... Are there more than two.?.?
Fair and fresh winds to all of you.
J
Josh Bloom
You guys are talking about theoretical hullspeed, which is more like a rule of thumb than a law of physics. Boats with displacement hulls can and do exceed their theoretical hullspeed all the time, including by heeling (which lengthens your LWL), or by surfing along the front of a wave (which turns your displacement hull into a planing hull, albeit briefly). For an M23, 6.5 kts heeled and 8 kts surfing are both very plausible. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Scobie" <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:51:22 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 1) BBQ 2) m23 speed M23 waterline about 21'10". hull speed is about 6.3 kts. otherwise i'm in agreement with what Connie wrote. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7/19/2016 2:39 PM, Rob Wood wrote:
Hi Josh,
Maximum hull speed is a function of waterline length. The longer the waterline the faster the ship can sail.
Our old 29-footer would sail at 5.5 to 6.0 knots with about 12 knots of wind, on the ocean.
If the wind increased I might see the occasional 6.5 knots.
Therefore I hardly think that an M23 can reach 8 knots, unless the situation is exceptional: with spinnaker; going downwind; optimum wind strength; relatively flat seas....
Connie
ex M15 ex Northeast 38 ex Tripp-Lentsch 29
On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Josh Bloom <josh@bloomcommercial.com> wrote:
Just curious what the preferred grill mount is for the m23 if you have the
little round magma one. I see Dauntless had it drop out and down just a hair off the stern on starboard side. (Can see on you tube under dauntless)
Can an m23 do 8 knots ... In shore costal on lake Minnetonka.... I just restored one but have never sailer her! I think according to Bones it will do about 6.5. Any other m23 owners have any thought to add here?
Ps how many m23 owners are in Minnesota ... Are there more than two.?.?
Fair and fresh winds to all of you.
J
Josh Bloom
I'll second that, theoretical hull speed is no hard upper limit, it's only the point where it starts to take a lot more sail energy to go faster due to the bow wave having a wavelength longer than the boat, and the stern falling down off the wave crest. I've often sustained 8.5-9.5 knots per GPS surfing downwind in my Catalina 22 (6.0 knot hull speed) coming back downwind from Catalina Island on a windy afternoon. The C22 rudder isn't quite powerful enough to control the boat at those speeds, and it will broach easily. This article by our list member Dr. Judy Blumhorst does a good job of explaining why this is possible: http://potter-yachters.org/manyways/hullspeed/ Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: swwheatley@comcast.net To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 9:38:21 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 1) BBQ 2) m23 speed You guys are talking about theoretical hullspeed, which is more like a rule of thumb than a law of physics. Boats with displacement hulls can and do exceed their theoretical hullspeed all the time, including by heeling (which lengthens your LWL), or by surfing along the front of a wave (which turns your displacement hull into a planing hull, albeit briefly). For an M23, 6.5 kts heeled and 8 kts surfing are both very plausible.
On 07/20/2016 10:11 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I'll second that, theoretical hull speed is no hard upper limit, it's only the point where it starts to take a lot more sail energy to go faster due to the bow wave having a wavelength longer than the boat, and the stern falling down off the wave crest.
Maybe getting a bit OT here for a Monty list, and...for the 'big picture' enthusiasts... If you get hull length:beam ratio around 12:1 and up, the bow/hull wave drag limitation decreases dramatically. Here an article by James Wharram (Wharram catamarans) that includes that info, as well as freeboard and windage effects: http://wharram.com/site/how-we-design/freeboard-and-windage Search for 'wave drag' on the page to cut to the chase on that part (about half way down). There's a bit more on wave drag/hull speed in this article: http://wharram.com/site/how-we-design/catamaran-stability ...read starting just above Figure 1 to cut to the chase on how monohulls evolved in terms of stability. The rest is about cat stability but as he points out the formulas are not different, just the results in terms of boat design. And also as he points out, humans figured all this out hundreds to thousands of years ago... cheers, John S.
I've often sustained 8.5-9.5 knots per GPS surfing downwind in my Catalina 22 (6.0 knot hull speed) coming back downwind from Catalina Island on a windy afternoon. The C22 rudder isn't quite powerful enough to control the boat at those speeds, and it will broach easily.
This article by our list member Dr. Judy Blumhorst does a good job of explaining why this is possible: http://potter-yachters.org/manyways/hullspeed/
Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: swwheatley@comcast.net To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 9:38:21 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 1) BBQ 2) m23 speed
You guys are talking about theoretical hullspeed, which is more like a rule of thumb than a law of physics. Boats with displacement hulls can and do exceed their theoretical hullspeed all the time, including by heeling (which lengthens your LWL), or by surfing along the front of a wave (which turns your displacement hull into a planing hull, albeit briefly). For an M23, 6.5 kts heeled and 8 kts surfing are both very plausible.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I will add that at some point either Jerry or an article I was reading about the M boat hull shape points out that it is not a totally displacement hull. It has some characteristics of semi planing. Of course planing hulls like the Oday 17 are not held to hull speed. If you look at the back of the M boat hull you can see that it flattens out a bit which is similar to the Oday 17. Happy sailing! Robbin M-23 pinch me On 7/20/2016 1:11 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I'll second that, theoretical hull speed is no hard upper limit, it's only the point where it starts to take a lot more sail energy to go faster due to the bow wave having a wavelength longer than the boat, and the stern falling down off the wave crest.
I've often sustained 8.5-9.5 knots per GPS surfing downwind in my Catalina 22 (6.0 knot hull speed) coming back downwind from Catalina Island on a windy afternoon. The C22 rudder isn't quite powerful enough to control the boat at those speeds, and it will broach easily.
This article by our list member Dr. Judy Blumhorst does a good job of explaining why this is possible: http://potter-yachters.org/manyways/hullspeed/
Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: swwheatley@comcast.net To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 9:38:21 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 1) BBQ 2) m23 speed
You guys are talking about theoretical hullspeed, which is more like a rule of thumb than a law of physics. Boats with displacement hulls can and do exceed their theoretical hullspeed all the time, including by heeling (which lengthens your LWL), or by surfing along the front of a wave (which turns your displacement hull into a planing hull, albeit briefly). For an M23, 6.5 kts heeled and 8 kts surfing are both very plausible.
Robin- The m-23 IS a pure displacement hull and would have a difficult time exceeding hull speed on flat water. A 25 or 30 knot wind and a spinnaker would push things past hull speed, but not by too much. Surfing is a different story; when surfing the boat is sailing on a concave surface, and going downhill at that. Neil Clark of Tucson did the Ensenada race in his 23 in a heavy-air year, and was surfing at 12 knots. He stuck the bow and broached several times and I assume they were hanging on by the skin of their teeth. One of the guys went below and he said that they stuck the bow one time and the boat stood on end and he could see solid water out of the windows on both sides. They thought they were headed for China! We were all pretty young then. By O'Day 17 you mean the Daysailer? A good Uffa Fox design and it definitely will plane, and plane decently. It's a planing dinghy, 6 feet shorter than the M-23, but about 1/8 the weight. A displacement/length ration of 150 or less is critical for planing. A flattish bottom is helpful but the critical thing is weight. -----Original Message----- From: Robbin Roddewig Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 3:36 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: 1) BBQ 2) m23 speed I will add that at some point either Jerry or an article I was reading about the M boat hull shape points out that it is not a totally displacement hull. It has some characteristics of semi planing. Of course planing hulls like the Oday 17 are not held to hull speed. If you look at the back of the M boat hull you can see that it flattens out a bit which is similar to the Oday 17. Happy sailing! Robbin M-23 pinch me On 7/20/2016 1:11 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I'll second that, theoretical hull speed is no hard upper limit, it's only the point where it starts to take a lot more sail energy to go faster due to the bow wave having a wavelength longer than the boat, and the stern falling down off the wave crest.
I've often sustained 8.5-9.5 knots per GPS surfing downwind in my Catalina 22 (6.0 knot hull speed) coming back downwind from Catalina Island on a windy afternoon. The C22 rudder isn't quite powerful enough to control the boat at those speeds, and it will broach easily.
This article by our list member Dr. Judy Blumhorst does a good job of explaining why this is possible: http://potter-yachters.org/manyways/hullspeed/
Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: swwheatley@comcast.net To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 9:38:21 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 1) BBQ 2) m23 speed
You guys are talking about theoretical hullspeed, which is more like a rule of thumb than a law of physics. Boats with displacement hulls can and do exceed their theoretical hullspeed all the time, including by heeling (which lengthens your LWL), or by surfing along the front of a wave (which turns your displacement hull into a planing hull, albeit briefly). For an M23, 6.5 kts heeled and 8 kts surfing are both very plausible.
Thanks for the correction Jerry! Sent from Robbin's phone
On Jul 29, 2016, at 3:48 PM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
Robin- The m-23 IS a pure displacement hull and would have a difficult time exceeding hull speed on flat water. A 25 or 30 knot wind and a spinnaker would push things past hull speed, but not by too much. Surfing is a different story; when surfing the boat is sailing on a concave surface, and going downhill at that. Neil Clark of Tucson did the Ensenada race in his 23 in a heavy-air year, and was surfing at 12 knots. He stuck the bow and broached several times and I assume they were hanging on by the skin of their teeth. One of the guys went below and he said that they stuck the bow one time and the boat stood on end and he could see solid water out of the windows on both sides. They thought they were headed for China! We were all pretty young then.
By O'Day 17 you mean the Daysailer? A good Uffa Fox design and it definitely will plane, and plane decently. It's a planing dinghy, 6 feet shorter than the M-23, but about 1/8 the weight. A displacement/length ration of 150 or less is critical for planing. A flattish bottom is helpful but the critical thing is weight.
-----Original Message----- From: Robbin Roddewig Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 3:36 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: 1) BBQ 2) m23 speed
I will add that at some point either Jerry or an article I was reading about the M boat hull shape points out that it is not a totally displacement hull. It has some characteristics of semi planing. Of course planing hulls like the Oday 17 are not held to hull speed. If you look at the back of the M boat hull you can see that it flattens out a bit which is similar to the Oday 17.
Happy sailing!
Robbin
M-23 pinch me
On 7/20/2016 1:11 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: I'll second that, theoretical hull speed is no hard upper limit, it's only the point where it starts to take a lot more sail energy to go faster due to the bow wave having a wavelength longer than the boat, and the stern falling down off the wave crest.
I've often sustained 8.5-9.5 knots per GPS surfing downwind in my Catalina 22 (6.0 knot hull speed) coming back downwind from Catalina Island on a windy afternoon. The C22 rudder isn't quite powerful enough to control the boat at those speeds, and it will broach easily.
This article by our list member Dr. Judy Blumhorst does a good job of explaining why this is possible: http://potter-yachters.org/manyways/hullspeed/
Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: swwheatley@comcast.net To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 9:38:21 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 1) BBQ 2) m23 speed
You guys are talking about theoretical hullspeed, which is more like a rule of thumb than a law of physics. Boats with displacement hulls can and do exceed their theoretical hullspeed all the time, including by heeling (which lengthens your LWL), or by surfing along the front of a wave (which turns your displacement hull into a planing hull, albeit briefly). For an M23, 6.5 kts heeled and 8 kts surfing are both very plausible.
participants (9)
-
casioqv＠usermail.com -
Conbert Benneck -
Dave Scobie -
jerry＠jerrymontgomery.org -
John Schinnerer -
Josh Bloom -
Rob Wood -
Robbin Roddewig -
swwheatley＠comcast.net