Do you have contact information for Harry at E/P sailmakers? What about M-15 sails? Steve M-15 # 335 -----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 11:33 AM To: Mike Barnett ; For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: New M-17 owner Get your sails from Harry at E/P sailmakers. He knows the boat, he has sailed the boat and will cut you a sail that works for the boat! :: Dave Scobie On Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 12:18 PM Mike Barnett via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:

My fiance and I recently acquired a 1976 M-17 - she's rough, and her sails are old (jibs are the original Reggie Armstrongs, the main is a non M-17 mutt that happens to fit), but she came to us, on a trailer, for a 3 figure price, so we'd have been nuts to say no! I'm pretty sure I'm going to order a double reef main from Precision, though I haven't decided yet on white vs colored sailcloth. We'll be doing quite a bit of cosmetic work on her to bring her up to a reasonable look for a lady of her age, but she seems solid, except for a glaring crack in the deck from the mast step to the forward hatch. It was a mystery to me until I realized the previous owner had either raised or lowered the mast with the stays at full tension. The bottom aft end of the mast isn't radiused (yet), so instead of simply pivoting aft, it jacked up about 1.5" and put enough pressure on the deck to flex and crack it. I'll be checking the compression post for damage when I take the mast step off to repair the deck. The M-17 was the first keelboat I ever sailed on, way back when on Lake Waconia, MN, and she always impressed me, though I've been as much a multihull sailor as a keelboater. I'm looking forward to going places with our little waterborne craft, now named Destiny (no trace of a previous name on her), and I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions as time goes on. Actually, I'll start now - has anyone used a double headstay for wing on wing jibs, and if so, how did you set it up? Mike Barnetthttp://claritysailingadventures@wordpress.com

Thanx, Steve M-15 # 335 -----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 1:54 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: New M-17 owner Contact email for Harry Pattison: hp@epsails.com :: Dave Scobie On Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 1:39 PM Steve Trapp <stevetrapp@q.com> wrote:

Do you have contact information for Harry at E/P sailmakers? What about M-15 sails? Steve M-15 # 335

-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 11:33 AM To: Mike Barnett ; For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: New M-17 owner

Get your sails from Harry at E/P sailmakers. He knows the boat, he has sailed the boat and will cut you a sail that works for the boat!

:: Dave Scobie

On Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 12:18 PM Mike Barnett via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:

...

My fiance and I recently acquired a 1976 M-17 - she's rough, and her sails are old (jibs are the original Reggie Armstrongs, the main is a non M-17 mutt that happens to fit), but she came to us, on a trailer, for a 3 figure price, so we'd have been nuts to say no! I'm pretty sure I'm going to order a double reef main from Precision, though I haven't decided yet on white vs colored sailcloth. We'll be doing quite a bit of cosmetic work on her to bring her up to a reasonable look for a lady of her age, but she seems solid, except for a glaring crack in the deck from the mast step to the forward hatch. It was a mystery to me until I realized the previous owner had either raised or lowered the mast with the stays at full tension. The bottom aft end of the mast isn't radiused (yet), so instead of simply pivoting aft, it jacked up about 1.5" and put enough pressure on the deck to flex and crack it. I'll be checking the compression post for damage when I take the mast step off to repair the deck. The M-17 was the first keelboat I ever sailed on, way back when on Lake Waconia, MN, and she always impressed me, though I've been as much a multihull sailor as a keelboater. I'm looking forward to going places with our little waterborne craft, now named Destiny (no trace of a previous name on her), and I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions as time goes on. Actually, I'll start now - has anyone used a double headstay for wing on wing jibs, and if so, how did you set it up? Mike Barnetthttp://claritysailingadventures@wordpress.com

Yeah, the compression post concerns me a bit.  And yes, the twin jibs are for playing around with self steering - not that I'll need it much, but I've got enough jibs and 1x19 wire that rigging a system up won't cost me much at all, and I love to tinker. Regards,   Mike Barnett http://claritysailingadventures.wordpress.com On Friday, March 23, 2018, 2:36:36 PM EDT, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote: Sounds like you might have a compression post problem- look for dry rot. Do you mean twin jibs for self steering dead downwind?  You can rig them by putting a longer pin in the masthead so that the eyes for the headstays go on the OUTSIDE of the masthead, then work out a way to do the same thing on the bottom.  You'd need to rig up some spacers to keep things from chaffing. This will separate them by about an inch, which will make hoisting and lowering them much easier; the hanks won't hang up on each other. You might want to read Mike Mann's book about sailing a 15 to HI; he spent a lot of time under twins.  He wisely had reefing on the jibs,  reefed them most of the time, and mentioned that they would have been better a little smaller..  You don't need much sail area when going downwind unless you’re in a race, then obviously a spinnaker is the ticket.  Two intermediate jibs might be about right, or a working jib and an intermediate might work fine together. Good luck. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Barnett via montgomery_boats Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 11:17 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: New M-17 owner My fiance and I recently acquired a 1976 M-17 - she's rough, and her sails are old (jibs are the original Reggie Armstrongs, the main is a non M-17 mutt that happens to fit), but she came to us, on a trailer, for a 3 figure price, so we'd have been nuts to say no! I'm pretty sure I'm going to order a double reef main from Precision, though I haven't decided yet on white vs colored sailcloth.  We'll be doing quite a bit of cosmetic work on her to bring her up to a reasonable look for a lady of her age, but she seems solid, except for a glaring crack in the deck from the mast step to the forward hatch.  It was a mystery to me until I realized the previous owner had either raised or lowered the mast with the stays at full tension.  The bottom aft end of the mast isn't radiused (yet), so instead of simply pivoting aft, it jacked up about 1.5" and put enough pressure on the deck to flex and crack it.  I'll be checking the compression post for damage when I take the mast step off to repair the deck. The M-17 was the first keelboat I ever sailed on, way back when on Lake Waconia, MN, and she always impressed me, though I've been as much a multihull sailor as a keelboater.  I'm looking forward to going places with our little waterborne craft, now named Destiny (no trace of a previous name on her), and I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions as time goes on. Actually, I'll start now - has anyone used a double headstay for wing on wing jibs, and if so, how did you set it up? Mike Barnetthttp://claritysailingadventures@wordpress.com

Mike- after thinking about it, I believe Michael Mann only used one forestay, and raised the jibs on the same halyard. He had the hanks staggered. I helped him do all the special stuff on the boat, but it was about 35 years ago, which is beyond my time limit. -----Original Message----- From: Conbert Benneck Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 3:08 PM To: Mike Barnett via montgomery_boats Subject: Re: M_Boats: New M-17 owner Hi Mike, (Jim?)Letcher wrote a book years ago on sheet to tiller steering systems. If you aren't familiar with it I can only highly recommend it. I used his methods on a 29 footer we sailed in Europe in the late '60's - early '70's. Caio, Connie ex M15 #400 LEPPO On 3/23/2018 2:10 PM, Mike Barnett via montgomery_boats wrote:

Yeah, the compression post concerns me a bit. And yes, the twin jibs are for playing around with self steering - not that I'll need it much, but I've got enough jibs and 1x19 wire that rigging a system up won't cost me much at all, and I love to tinker.

Regards,

Mike Barnett

http://claritysailingadventures.wordpress.com

On Friday, March 23, 2018, 2:36:36 PM EDT, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote: Sounds like you might have a compression post problem- look for dry rot.

Do you mean twin jibs for self steering dead downwind? You can rig them by putting a longer pin in the masthead so that the eyes for the headstays go on the OUTSIDE of the masthead, then work out a way to do the same thing on the bottom. You'd need to rig up some spacers to keep things from chaffing. This will separate them by about an inch, which will make hoisting and lowering them much easier; the hanks won't hang up on each other.

You might want to read Mike Mann's book about sailing a 15 to HI; he spent a lot of time under twins. He wisely had reefing on the jibs, reefed them most of the time, and mentioned that they would have been better a little smaller.. You don't need much sail area when going downwind unless you’re in a race, then obviously a spinnaker is the ticket. Two intermediate jibs might be about right, or a working jib and an intermediate might work fine together.

Good luck.

-----Original Message----- From: Mike Barnett via montgomery_boats Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 11:17 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: New M-17 owner

My fiance and I recently acquired a 1976 M-17 - she's rough, and her sails are old (jibs are the original Reggie Armstrongs, the main is a non M-17 mutt that happens to fit), but she came to us, on a trailer, for a 3 figure price, so we'd have been nuts to say no! I'm pretty sure I'm going to order a double reef main from Precision, though I haven't decided yet on white vs colored sailcloth. We'll be doing quite a bit of cosmetic work on her to bring her up to a reasonable look for a lady of her age, but she seems solid, except for a glaring crack in the deck from the mast step to the forward hatch. It was a mystery to me until I realized the previous owner had either raised or lowered the mast with the stays at full tension. The bottom aft end of the mast isn't radiused (yet), so instead of simply pivoting aft, it jacked up about 1.5" and put enough pressure on the deck to flex and crack it. I'll be checking the compression post for damage when I take the mast step off to repair the deck. The M-17 was the first keelboat I ever sailed on, way back when on Lake Waconia, MN, and she always impressed me, though I've been as much a multihull sailor as a keelboater. I'm looking forward to going places with our little waterborne craft, now named Destiny (no trace of a previous name on her), and I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions as time goes on. Actually, I'll start now - has anyone used a double headstay for wing on wing jibs, and if so, how did you set it up? Mike Barnetthttp://claritysailingadventures@wordpress.com

David, My eyeballing shows about 3/4" of interference without the mast heel being radiused.  My mast step has a vertical slot for the retaining bolt, but no horizontal slot at the bottom, like I've seen on some other boats (not specifically M-17's).  I've radiused masts before, and haven't had any issues, so I'm comfortable with maintaining rig integrity (I start the radiusing about 1/4" behind the retaining bolt which keeps the compression load over the bolt the same as before, and usually use the for and aft measurement of the mast cross section as the radius for the curve. Regards,   Mike Barnett http://claritysailingadventures.wordpress.com On Friday, March 23, 2018, 2:58:55 PM EDT, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote: On Mar 23, 2018, 11:19 AM -0700, Mike Barnett via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, wrote: My fiance and I recently acquired a 1976 M-17 - she's rough, and her sails are old (jibs are the original Reggie Armstrongs, the main is a non M-17 mutt that happens to fit), but she came to us, on a trailer, for a 3 figure price, so we'd have been nuts to say no! I'm pretty sure I'm going to order a double reef main from Precision, though I haven't decided yet on white vs colored sailcloth.  We'll be doing quite a bit of cosmetic work on her to bring her up to a reasonable look for a lady of her age, but she seems solid, except for a glaring crack in the deck from the mast step to the forward hatch.  It was a mystery to me until I realized the previous owner had either raised or lowered the mast with the stays at full tension.  The bottom aft end of the mast isn't radiused (yet), so instead of simply pivoting aft, it jacked up about 1.5" and put enough pressure on the deck to flex and crack it.  I'll be checking the compression post for damage when I take the mast step off to repair the deck. There's been some contention about radiusing the mast. My claim is that, even if the bottom of the mast were dead square, the stretching in the shrouds (I assume you mean shrouds) would be only a couple hundredths of an inch. I'd take Jerry's advice and look at the deck supports. I finally got around to wondering why radiusing the mast makes raising it easier--in case I'm not the only one who didn't see it. It's because the sole of the mast has to slide backward on the base of the tabernacle for the last 20 degrees or so, with the shrouds under tension. So I tried waxing it, which helps, and will look into cleaning up the somewhat rough and scarred surfaces.

On 03/23/2018 04:18 PM, David Rifkind wrote: ...

You're not stretching the shrouds or anything when you raise the mast. But if you radius it, the shrouds are _undertensioned_ until the last moment when it rocks onto the high spot. The tradeoff for that is significant reduction in the footprint of the mast, i.e. higher pressure.

My tabernacle is a stainless "U" with vertical slot for bolt. Aluminum mast base rests on large stainless plate that is the bottom of the "U" shape. So whatever part of the mast base contacts the plate, the plate spreads the pressure somewhat. The total pressure exerted is what it is. Question is, how concentrated or spread out is that pressure (over how much/how little surface area does it pressure the cabin top)? Anyone ever tested how much of their mast base (and where) actually contacts their tabernacle base when raised and static? When in use sailing? Some thin automotive feeler gauges or just a strip of paper would do. Altering mast rake would shift the pressure point...if my mast base is flat on tabernacle plate at 1 deg. rake and I go to 2 deg. rake then that is going to increase pressure exerted at aft edge of mast base. My hunch is that for our small boats, the forces involved are not a problem in the vast majority of cases. cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com