RE: M_Boats: Yamaha Outboard motor problem (Honda)
Yep, you always want the motor 'correct side up' when on the mount out of the water - I have a fixed mount and found this out the hard way - cheers- Shawn Boles Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+shawn=ori.org@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+shawn=ori.org@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Rachel Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 5:01 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Yamaha Outboard motor problem (Honda) (I haven't been following this thread, so pardon any duplication) Don, I had a similar episode with a Honda 2hp but since mine wasn't from laying it down on the wrong side, I thought I might mention it because what happened to me could potentially happen with it on an M-boat as well. In my case I was using the motor on an 8-foot inflatable dinghy. The dinghy was in the slip next to the "big" boat (30' sailboat) and the motor was on the dinghy, tilted in the "up" position to keep the prop out of the water. One morning I took the motor off the dinghy (hadn't used it for a couple of days) and mounted it on the stern rail of the big boat in preparation for departure. At that point I noticed that something was dripping from the motor and making rainbows on the water. Hmm, not good. Fuel cap was closed, vent was closed, gas lever was in "off" position.... Further investigation showed that oil and gas had gotten mixed together inside the motor. After a call to the dealer (the motor was relatively new) and some head-scratching, what we figured out was that when the motor was tilted up - and if it happened to be "flopped" to the side on the side most resembling the "wrong" side, then when the dinghy rocked on the occasional wake in the marina it caused things to happen inside the motor just as if it were laid down on the wrong side. Luckily we had caught it before trying to start the motor. I could easily see this happening on a boat as small as an M-15, as it moved around in a seaway or even in a slip. At that time we took care of the problem by only flopping the motor over to the "better" side when it was tilted up, and then securing it with a bungee cord so it wouldn't flop the other way. At that time (2001) I didn't see any mention of this possible problem in the owner's manual. FWIW, --- Rachel Fatty Knees 7' #302 Former owner, M-17 #334 Former owner, M-15 #517 On Aug 14, 2006, at 6:07 AM, LUDLOWD2@aol.com wrote:
Tim: the other day I laid my Honda 4-stroke on the dock on the wrong side. I noticed it immediately and turned it over but in the 8 seconds or so, oil leaked into the cylinder. I stood it up and found there was no oil showing in
the sightglass. Oops! .....
I will be a lot more careful in the future when laying the motor down to make sure
that it is on the correct side.
Don Ludlow M-15 #620 Sweet Dream
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Outboard motors that leak oil into the cylinder in certain positions and consequently won't start are in my view fatally flawed because they will inevitably end up on the incorrect side occasionally. Sounds like Honda didn't think things through when making the transition from 2 to 4 cycle. I wonder what the company has to say for itself. Have they fixed the flaw? Someone who owns one should write the company on behalf of the group. As it is, they are getting a lot of really bad publicity among Montgomery fans. Don't you just hate things that don't work? bob s. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+bobsmith=ag.arizona.edu@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+bobsmith=ag.arizona.edu@mailman.xmission.co m] On Behalf Of Shawn Boles Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 6:43 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: RE: M_Boats: Yamaha Outboard motor problem (Honda) Yep, you always want the motor 'correct side up' when on the mount out of the water - I have a fixed mount and found this out the hard way - cheers- Shawn Boles Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+shawn=ori.org@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+shawn=ori.org@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Rachel Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 5:01 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Yamaha Outboard motor problem (Honda) (I haven't been following this thread, so pardon any duplication) Don, I had a similar episode with a Honda 2hp but since mine wasn't from laying it down on the wrong side, I thought I might mention it because what happened to me could potentially happen with it on an M-boat as well. In my case I was using the motor on an 8-foot inflatable dinghy. The dinghy was in the slip next to the "big" boat (30' sailboat) and the motor was on the dinghy, tilted in the "up" position to keep the prop out of the water. One morning I took the motor off the dinghy (hadn't used it for a couple of days) and mounted it on the stern rail of the big boat in preparation for departure. At that point I noticed that something was dripping from the motor and making rainbows on the water. Hmm, not good. Fuel cap was closed, vent was closed, gas lever was in "off" position.... Further investigation showed that oil and gas had gotten mixed together inside the motor. After a call to the dealer (the motor was relatively new) and some head-scratching, what we figured out was that when the motor was tilted up - and if it happened to be "flopped" to the side on the side most resembling the "wrong" side, then when the dinghy rocked on the occasional wake in the marina it caused things to happen inside the motor just as if it were laid down on the wrong side. Luckily we had caught it before trying to start the motor. I could easily see this happening on a boat as small as an M-15, as it moved around in a seaway or even in a slip. At that time we took care of the problem by only flopping the motor over to the "better" side when it was tilted up, and then securing it with a bungee cord so it wouldn't flop the other way. At that time (2001) I didn't see any mention of this possible problem in the owner's manual. FWIW, --- Rachel Fatty Knees 7' #302 Former owner, M-17 #334 Former owner, M-15 #517 On Aug 14, 2006, at 6:07 AM, LUDLOWD2@aol.com wrote:
Tim: the other day I laid my Honda 4-stroke on the dock on the wrong side. I noticed it immediately and turned it over but in the 8 seconds or so, oil leaked into the cylinder. I stood it up and found there was no oil showing in
the sightglass. Oops! .....
I will be a lot more careful in the future when laying the motor down to make sure
that it is on the correct side.
Don Ludlow M-15 #620 Sweet Dream
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Bob, I'm no engineer, but there is certainly a good reason for not sealing the crankcase on a four-stroke outboard. Maybe heat-induced expansion. Maybe something else. But it couldn't have been an oversight. After viewing the amazing Honda video, I would never question their engineering. (see the email and link below - even if you don't have broadband, it's worth the download time.) Bill Riker M15 - #184 Storm Petrel ============================================================= -- Kenneth G Murphy <kgmurphy@comcast.net> wrote: Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 10:38:30 -0400 To: Shallow Water Sailor Membership kgmurphy@comcast.net> From: Kenneth G Murphy <kgmurphy@comcast.net> Subject: Fwd: Honda Commercial Dear SWSers, I just had to forward to you this email from my son. Ken From: bryan murphy To: kgmurphy@comcast.net Subject: Honda Commercial Dad, This is the ad I was telling you about: There are no computer graphics or digital tricks in the film. Everything you see really happened in real time exactly as you see it. The film took 606 takes. On the first 605 takes, something, usually very minor, didn't work. They would then have to set the whole thing up again. The crew spent weeks shooting night and day. By the time it was over, they were ready to change professions. The film cost six million dollars and took three months to complete including full engineering of the sequence. In addition, it's two minutes long, so every time Honda airs the film on British television, they're shelling out big bucks. However, it is fast becoming the most downloaded advertisement in Internet history. Honda executives figure the ad will soon pay for itself simply in "free viewings." (Honda isn't paying a dime to have you watch this commercial!). When the ad was pitched to senior executives, they signed off on it immediately without any hesitation - including the costs. There are six and only six hand-made Accords in the world. To the horror of Honda engineers, the filmmakers disassembled two of them to make the film. Everything you see in the film (aside from the walls, floor, ramp, and complete Honda Accord) are parts from those two cars. The voiceover is Garrison Keillor. When the ad was shown to Honda executives, they liked it and commented on how amazing computer graphics have gotten. They fell off their chairs when they found out it was for real. Oh, and about those funky windshield wipers. On the new Accords, the windshield wipers have water sensors and are designed to start doing their thing automatically as soon as they become wet. http://www.steelcitysfinest.com/HondaAccordAd.htm =============================================================== -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Smith Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:05 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Yamaha Outboard motor problem (Honda) Outboard motors that leak oil into the cylinder in certain positions and consequently won't start are in my view fatally flawed because they will inevitably end up on the incorrect side occasionally. Sounds like Honda didn't think things through when making the transition from 2 to 4 cycle. I wonder what the company has to say for itself. Have they fixed the flaw? Someone who owns one should write the company on behalf of the group. As it is, they are getting a lot of really bad publicity among Montgomery fans. Don't you just hate things that don't work? bob s.
Wow, very cool! Rube Goldberg take note. Who ever set up that stunt should be able to come up with a solution to the outboard oil problem. Bill I am no engineer either, and I agree that the crankcase can't be sealed; however there could be a reservoir to catch the oil when the motor is placed on its side as inevitably happens with small light outboards. After the engine is righted or mounted for use, the oil could gravity drain from the reservoir back into the crankcase. Cheers, bob -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+bobsmith=ag.arizona.edu@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+bobsmith=ag.arizona.edu@mailman.xmission.co m] On Behalf Of William B. Riker Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 6:25 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Yamaha Outboard motor problem (Honda) Bob, I'm no engineer, but there is certainly a good reason for not sealing the crankcase on a four-stroke outboard. Maybe heat-induced expansion. Maybe something else. But it couldn't have been an oversight. After viewing the amazing Honda video, I would never question their engineering. (see the email and link below - even if you don't have broadband, it's worth the download time.) Bill Riker M15 - #184 Storm Petrel ============================================================= -- Kenneth G Murphy <kgmurphy@comcast.net> wrote: Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 10:38:30 -0400 To: Shallow Water Sailor Membership kgmurphy@comcast.net> From: Kenneth G Murphy <kgmurphy@comcast.net> Subject: Fwd: Honda Commercial Dear SWSers, I just had to forward to you this email from my son. Ken From: bryan murphy To: kgmurphy@comcast.net Subject: Honda Commercial Dad, This is the ad I was telling you about: There are no computer graphics or digital tricks in the film. Everything you see really happened in real time exactly as you see it. The film took 606 takes. On the first 605 takes, something, usually very minor, didn't work. They would then have to set the whole thing up again. The crew spent weeks shooting night and day. By the time it was over, they were ready to change professions. The film cost six million dollars and took three months to complete including full engineering of the sequence. In addition, it's two minutes long, so every time Honda airs the film on British television, they're shelling out big bucks. However, it is fast becoming the most downloaded advertisement in Internet history. Honda executives figure the ad will soon pay for itself simply in "free viewings." (Honda isn't paying a dime to have you watch this commercial!). When the ad was pitched to senior executives, they signed off on it immediately without any hesitation - including the costs. There are six and only six hand-made Accords in the world. To the horror of Honda engineers, the filmmakers disassembled two of them to make the film. Everything you see in the film (aside from the walls, floor, ramp, and complete Honda Accord) are parts from those two cars. The voiceover is Garrison Keillor. When the ad was shown to Honda executives, they liked it and commented on how amazing computer graphics have gotten. They fell off their chairs when they found out it was for real. Oh, and about those funky windshield wipers. On the new Accords, the windshield wipers have water sensors and are designed to start doing their thing automatically as soon as they become wet. http://www.steelcitysfinest.com/HondaAccordAd.htm =============================================================== -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Smith Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:05 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Yamaha Outboard motor problem (Honda) Outboard motors that leak oil into the cylinder in certain positions and consequently won't start are in my view fatally flawed because they will inevitably end up on the incorrect side occasionally. Sounds like Honda didn't think things through when making the transition from 2 to 4 cycle. I wonder what the company has to say for itself. Have they fixed the flaw? Someone who owns one should write the company on behalf of the group. As it is, they are getting a lot of really bad publicity among Montgomery fans. Don't you just hate things that don't work? bob s. _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
4-stroke engines of any sort in my experience will leak oil of tipped on the wrong side. The crank case venting goes to the intake manifold so that crankcase fumes will be burned in the engine and so pollute the air less. The crankcase must be vented to allow for piston displacement, especially in a one-cylinder engine, but in all of them because of combustion gasses that blow past the piston rings, among other reasons. So follow the instructions! --Gary Hyde Pullman, WA gmhyde1@mac.com M17 #637 'Hydeaway 2' "...There's nothing quite like messing about in boats..." On Aug 14, 2006, at 6:25 PM, William B. Riker wrote:
Bob,
I'm no engineer, but there is certainly a good reason for not sealing the crankcase on a four-stroke outboard. Maybe heat-induced expansion. Maybe something else. But it couldn't have been an oversight.
After viewing the amazing Honda video, I would never question their engineering. (see the email and link below - even if you don't have broadband, it's worth the download time.)
Bill Riker M15 - #184 Storm Petrel
============================================================= -- Kenneth G Murphy <kgmurphy@comcast.net> wrote:
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 10:38:30 -0400 To: Shallow Water Sailor Membership kgmurphy@comcast.net> From: Kenneth G Murphy <kgmurphy@comcast.net> Subject: Fwd: Honda Commercial
Dear SWSers, I just had to forward to you this email from my son. Ken
From: bryan murphy To: kgmurphy@comcast.net Subject: Honda Commercial
Dad, This is the ad I was telling you about:
There are no computer graphics or digital tricks in the film. Everything you see really happened in real time exactly as you see it. The film took 606 takes. On the first 605 takes, something, usually very minor, didn't work.
They would then have to set the whole thing up again. The crew spent weeks shooting night and day. By the time it was over, they were ready to change professions. The film cost six million dollars and took three months to complete including full engineering of the sequence.
In addition, it's two minutes long, so every time Honda airs the film on British television, they're shelling out big bucks.
However, it is fast becoming the most downloaded advertisement in Internet history.
Honda executives figure the ad will soon pay for itself simply in "free viewings." (Honda isn't paying a dime to have you watch this commercial!). When the ad was pitched to senior executives, they signed off on it immediately without any hesitation - including the costs.
There are six and only six hand-made Accords in the world. To the horror of Honda engineers, the filmmakers disassembled two of them to make the film.
Everything you see in the film (aside from the walls, floor, ramp, and complete Honda Accord) are parts from those two cars. The voiceover is Garrison Keillor. When the ad was shown to Honda executives, they liked it and commented on how amazing computer graphics have gotten. They fell off their chairs when they found out it was for real.
Oh, and about those funky windshield wipers. On the new Accords, the windshield wipers have water sensors and are designed to start doing their thing automatically as soon as they become wet.
http://www.steelcitysfinest.com/HondaAccordAd.htm
=============================================================== -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces +wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces +wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Smith Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:05 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Yamaha Outboard motor problem (Honda)
Outboard motors that leak oil into the cylinder in certain positions and consequently won't start are in my view fatally flawed because they will inevitably end up on the incorrect side occasionally. Sounds like Honda didn't think things through when making the transition from 2 to 4 cycle. I wonder what the company has to say for itself. Have they fixed the flaw? Someone who owns one should write the company on behalf of the group. As it is, they are getting a lot of really bad publicity among Montgomery fans.
Don't you just hate things that don't work?
bob s.
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
You all (or is it all you all?) have nearly convinced me to stick with 2 strokes! On Aug 14, 2006, at 8:43 AM, Shawn Boles wrote:
Yep, you always want the motor 'correct side up' when on the mount out of the water - I have a fixed mount and found this out the hard way -
cheers- Shawn Boles Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978)
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+shawn=ori.org@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+shawn=ori.org@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Rachel Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 5:01 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Yamaha Outboard motor problem (Honda)
(I haven't been following this thread, so pardon any duplication)
Don,
I had a similar episode with a Honda 2hp but since mine wasn't from laying it down on the wrong side, I thought I might mention it because what happened to me could potentially happen with it on an M-boat as well.
In my case I was using the motor on an 8-foot inflatable dinghy. The dinghy was in the slip next to the "big" boat (30' sailboat) and the motor was on the dinghy, tilted in the "up" position to keep the prop out of the water. One morning I took the motor off the dinghy (hadn't used it for a couple of days) and mounted it on the stern rail of the big boat in preparation for departure. At that point I noticed that something was dripping from the motor and making rainbows on the water. Hmm, not good. Fuel cap was closed, vent was closed, gas lever was in "off" position....
Further investigation showed that oil and gas had gotten mixed together inside the motor. After a call to the dealer (the motor was relatively new) and some head-scratching, what we figured out was that when the motor was tilted up - and if it happened to be "flopped" to the side on the side most resembling the "wrong" side, then when the dinghy rocked on the occasional wake in the marina it caused things to happen inside the motor just as if it were laid down on the wrong side. Luckily we had caught it before trying to start the motor. I could easily see this happening on a boat as small as an M-15, as it moved around in a seaway or even in a slip.
At that time we took care of the problem by only flopping the motor over to the "better" side when it was tilted up, and then securing it with a bungee cord so it wouldn't flop the other way. At that time (2001) I didn't see any mention of this possible problem in the owner's manual.
FWIW,
--- Rachel
Fatty Knees 7' #302 Former owner, M-17 #334 Former owner, M-15 #517
On Aug 14, 2006, at 6:07 AM, LUDLOWD2@aol.com wrote:
Tim: the other day I laid my Honda 4-stroke on the dock on the wrong side. I noticed it immediately and turned it over but in the 8 seconds or so, oil leaked into the cylinder. I stood it up and found there was no oil showing in
the sightglass. Oops! .....
I will be a lot more careful in the future when laying the motor down to make sure
that it is on the correct side.
Don Ludlow M-15 #620 Sweet Dream
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
participants (5)
-
Gary M Hyde -
Howard Audsley -
Robert L. Smith -
Shawn Boles -
William B. Riker