Hi All, There is an option worth considering instead of using metal. Bill Sylvester page on the Photo SIte: http://www.msogphotosite.com/M17thruhul.html Bill On 6/25/08, John Fleming <jfleming1231@earthlink.net> wrote:

Michael Ray Wisely wrote:

...

Hey Jim,

Now:

Here's a question for everyone out there. My M-17 #383 has the drains that are attached to hoses and exit thru and under the waterline. This concerned me when I first saw it, but they have appeared to work fine in the relatively calm conditions that I have been in so far. Any reason to think it is not good the way it is?

I read a lot of info on changing/re-working cockpit drains. Is there any reason to?

Any thoughts?

If you keep the boat on the trailer and sail in fresh water, the glassed -in aluminum tubes are probably OK for many years. My concern was extended time in salt water. All the books I have say that bronze is the best below-water-line metal, and that bwl through-hull should only be bronze. My wife and I talked about putting our M-17 in a mooring, and before I do that, I would want to change the thru-hull arrangement. Aluminum will corrode in salt water, pit corrosion leading to eventual failure.

John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd"

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We know that a cockpit full of people will squat the boat so we offer an upgrade with positive shut off capabilites. What we do offer are 2 Forespar 1.5 inch Marelon Ball Valves that can simply be levered to the off position to prevent any water at all coming thru the cockpit drains. A photo of this option is here: http://www.montgomeryboats.com/photodym.php?startIdx=96 It is in the aft locker. For others who sail with several people and gear (icechest. fuel tank, heavy outboard) I think having a couple of rubber plugs shoved in the cockpit wall drain holes works well. We offer this option (the Forespar ball valve) to everyone. I think the design elevation of the cockpit floor is good; but nothing is going to keep water from backwashing or seeking it's own level when the boat is loaded with people and the associated weight of the outboard, fuel, anchor/rode, mother-inlaw and the dog. Once the cockit floor is below the waterline you will have a backwash situation. Even if the drains were in the floor and went straight down (below the waterline) it wouldn't keep an aft loaded boats cockpit dry. That's why I prefer to simply raise the seat on the fuel tank locker and lever the marelon ball valves to the off position. No water can enter at all. Fair winds Bob (949) 489-8227

From: picfo@comcast.net> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:01:05 -0700> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: SF Bay Sail, and Cockpit drain config.> > A trip to Angel Island would make the perfect overnight shakedown > cruise for Spirit. It will force me to install that Seacook stove I > bought a month ago (I hate drilling holes in new boats).> > And a tip on Whale one-way valves if you are considering them: They > don't work - at least not on the newer M-17s with the drain hoses > running through the transom. Spirit's cockpit is constantly awash in > backed-up seawater. Singlehanding draws only a cup of water (I'm > 6'4" 220# and there's a 60# 4hp Merc hanging off the stern bracket). > With three full-sized adults in the cockpit the amount of water > sloshing around on the cockpit sole gets ankle deep on the leeward > side when beating to windward. I'd call this a design flaw but the > current drain configuration is NOT how Lyle Hess originally designed it.> > My advice is that If your below-the-waterline through-hull > configuration keeps the water out then stick with the basic design, > but upgrade the materials it if they are suspect.> > And, if anyone out there is contemplating ordering a new M-17, work > out a cockpit drainage solution that obeys the laws of physics.> > Jim> M-17 "Spirit"> > On Jun 23, 2008, at 11:09 PM, Michael Ray Wisely wrote:> > > Hey Jim,> >> > I'm sailing in my front yard right now. I hope to get "Meg" ready > > by late> > July, early August. I'm going to pull the CB and I'm replacing all > > the> > exterior teak. Just got back from buying the wood...Teak is at a > > whopping> > $26 a board ft. yikes...decided to bite the bullet, so I guess I > > can't> > complain.> > I want to do the Angel Island overnight as one of my first sails > > when we are> > shipshape, but I will get up with you when we get her ready.> >> > Now:> >> > Here's a question for everyone out there. My M-17 #383 has the > > drains that> > are attached to hoses and exit thru and under the waterline. This > > concerned> > me when I first saw it, but they have appeared to work fine in the> > relatively calm conditions that I have been in so far. Any reason > > to think> > it is not good the way it is?> >> > I read a lot of info on changing/re-working cockpit drains. Is > > there any> > reason to?> >> >> > Any thoughts?> >> > Wish I was sailing right now.> >> > Soon.> >> > Michael Ray> > M17 The "MEG"> > SF Bay> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Joe....I will install them on Monday. It's a good choice if your sailing a crowd. Bob

From: seagray@embarqmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:27:45 -0400> Subject: Re: M_Boats: SF Bay Sail, and Cockpit drain config.> > Bob,> I wasn't aware of this situation. Is the option for the 2 valves too late > for Sea Frog??> Joe> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob From California" <ocean37@hotmail.com>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 11:59 AM> Subject: Re: M_Boats: SF Bay Sail, and Cockpit drain config.> > > >> > We know that a cockpit full of people will squat the boat so we offer an > > upgrade with positive> > shut off capabilites. What we do offer are 2 Forespar 1.5 inch Marelon > > Ball Valves that can simply be levered to the off position to prevent any > > water at all coming thru the cockpit drains. A photo of this option is > > here:> >> > http://www.montgomeryboats.com/photodym.php?startIdx=96> >> > It is in the aft locker. For others who sail with several people and gear > > (icechest. fuel tank, heavy outboard) I think having a couple of rubber > > plugs shoved in the cockpit wall drain holes works well.> >> > We offer this option (the Forespar ball valve) to everyone.> >> > I think the design elevation of the cockpit floor is good; but nothing is > > going to keep water from backwashing or seeking it's own level when the > > boat is loaded with people and the associated weight of> > the outboard, fuel, anchor/rode, mother-inlaw and the dog. Once the cockit > > floor is below the waterline> > you will have a backwash situation.> >> > Even if the drains were in the floor and went straight down (below the > > waterline) it wouldn't keep an aft> > loaded boats cockpit dry. That's why I prefer to simply raise the seat on > > the fuel tank locker and lever> > the marelon ball valves to the off position. No water can enter at all.> >> > Fair winds> > Bob> > (949) 489-8227> >> >> >> >> >> From: picfo@comcast.net> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:01:05 -0700> To: > >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: SF Bay Sail, > >> and Cockpit drain config.> > A trip to Angel Island would make the > >> perfect overnight shakedown > cruise for Spirit. It will force me to > >> install that Seacook stove I > bought a month ago (I hate drilling holes > >> in new boats).> > And a tip on Whale one-way valves if you are > >> considering them: They > don't work - at least not on the newer M-17s > >> with the drain hoses > running through the transom. Spirit's cockpit is > >> constantly awash in > backed-up seawater. Singlehanding draws only a cup > >> of water (I'm > 6'4" 220# and there's a 60# 4hp Merc hanging off the > >> stern bracket). > With three full-sized adults in the cockpit the amount > >> of water > sloshing around on the cockpit sole gets ankle deep on the > >> leeward > side when beating to windward. I'd call this a design flaw but > >> the > current drain configuration is NOT how Lyle Hess originally > >> designed it.> > My advice is that If your below-the-waterline > >> through-hull > configuration keeps the water out then stick with the > >> basic design, > but upgrade the materials it if they are suspect.> > And, > >> if anyone out there is contemplating ordering a new M-17, work > out a > >> cockpit drainage solution that obeys the laws of physics.> > Jim> M-17 > >> "Spirit"> > On Jun 23, 2008, at 11:09 PM, Michael Ray Wisely wrote:> > > > >> Hey Jim,> >> > I'm sailing in my front yard right now. I hope to get > >> "Meg" ready > > by late> > July, early August. I'm going to pull the CB > >> and I'm replacing all > > the> > exterior teak. Just got back from buying > >> the wood...Teak is at a > > whopping> > $26 a board ft. yikes...decided > >> to bite the bullet, so I guess I > > can't> > complain.> > I want to do > >> the Angel Island overnight as one of my first sails > > when we are> > > >> shipshape, but I will get up with you when we get her ready.> >> > Now:> > >> >> > Here's a question for everyone out there. My M-17 #383 has the > > > >> drains that> > are attached to hoses and exit thru and under the > >> waterline. This > > concerned> > me when I first saw it, but they have > >> appeared to work fine in the> > relatively calm conditions that I have > >> been in so far. Any reason > > to think> > it is not good the way it is?> > >> >> > I read a lot of info on changing/re-working cockpit drains. Is > > > >> there any> > reason to?> >> >> > Any thoughts?> >> > Wish I was sailing > >> right now.> >> > Soon.> >> > Michael Ray> > M17 The "MEG"> > SF Bay> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________> > > >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> > > >> > _______________________________________________> > >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> > _______________________________________________> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> > > > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats