Hello Monty sailors, after sailing my M-17 today, when I tried to raise the centerboard a couple of times I lost hold of it and it dropped with a big "plunk". I didn't have the knot in the centerboard line which some people mentioned here, since I guess the previous owner never had it (stupid of me, obviously). Anyway, when I pulled the boat out of the water afterwards I noticed that a piece of fiberglass about 1in x 1/2in which is the very rear bottom corner of the keel was almost completely broken off. I was able to take it off the boat, by just pulling lightly on it. It is the area behind and below the metal pin that I think is the stop for the centerboard. I assume that when the cb banged down on it a couple of times, the fiberglass around it cracked and broke. The actual metal pin stop is still in place, but the bottom half of it is now naked metal, and it feels rather wobbly. How do I fix this? I have little to no experience with fiberglass and gelcoat, although I might be able to find either a shop who knows (but would charge me an arm and a leg), or learn somehow how to do it myself. Is this a delicate job that needs someone with experience, or can the job be described in an e-mail? My first thought was to take some 5 minute epoxy and glue the piece I have back on, but I guess there's more professional ways of doing this. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks, Andrei.
Andrei: I have an idea of your problem, but can you post a picture of it? One way to do that is to join a photo hosting site like photobucket.com and store your photo there then post a link to it here. I have some thoughts on how to make the repair, but it all hinges on where it's broke and some knowledge on how it was put together in the first place. It's doable by mere mortals. Howard On Sep 27, 2008, at 11:52 PM, Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Hello Monty sailors,
after sailing my M-17 today, when I tried to raise the centerboard a couple of times I lost hold of it and it dropped with a big "plunk". I didn't have the knot in the centerboard line which some people mentioned here, since I guess the previous owner never had it (stupid of me, obviously).
Anyway, when I pulled the boat out of the water afterwards I noticed that a piece of fiberglass about 1in x 1/2in which is the very rear bottom corner of the keel was almost completely broken off. I was able to take it off the boat, by just pulling lightly on it. It is the area behind and below the metal pin that I think is the stop for the centerboard. I assume that when the cb banged down on it a couple of times, the fiberglass around it cracked and broke. The actual metal pin stop is still in place, but the bottom half of it is now naked metal, and it feels rather wobbly.
How do I fix this? I have little to no experience with fiberglass and gelcoat, although I might be able to find either a shop who knows (but would charge me an arm and a leg), or learn somehow how to do it myself. Is this a delicate job that needs someone with experience, or can the job be described in an e-mail?
My first thought was to take some 5 minute epoxy and glue the piece I have back on, but I guess there's more professional ways of doing this.
Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrei.
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Dear Howard, I'll try to go and take a photo of the damaged area tomorrow, and post it on the web. Thanks, Andrei.
Hello Andrei, I would make sure this gets fixed right, I have a 1977 M17. Shortly after I bought it and took her sailing last year I noticed we were getting water between the hull and hull liner. I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out where I had a leak, it turns out the center board had been dropped one too many times and had deformed the stop pin which compromised the seal and was causing water to enter the keel and ultimately between the hull and hull liner. I had a local yard cut the side of the keel off to let everything dry out and when they did this they found a 6 inch long crack in the fiberglass under the stop pin that was also leaking. This crack we figured was caused by dropping the keel too hard against the stop pin and wouldn't have been something I saw just looking from the outside since the crack was up in the keel trunk. They took care of fixing the problem and also re- finished my centerboard for around $900 which I didn't think was too bad. I hope this information helps. Regards, Chad On Sep 27, 2008, at 11:52 PM, Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Hello Monty sailors,
after sailing my M-17 today, when I tried to raise the centerboard a couple of times I lost hold of it and it dropped with a big "plunk". I didn't have the knot in the centerboard line which some people mentioned here, since I guess the previous owner never had it (stupid of me, obviously).
Anyway, when I pulled the boat out of the water afterwards I noticed that a piece of fiberglass about 1in x 1/2in which is the very rear bottom corner of the keel was almost completely broken off. I was able to take it off the boat, by just pulling lightly on it. It is the area behind and below the metal pin that I think is the stop for the centerboard. I assume that when the cb banged down on it a couple of times, the fiberglass around it cracked and broke. The actual metal pin stop is still in place, but the bottom half of it is now naked metal, and it feels rather wobbly.
How do I fix this? I have little to no experience with fiberglass and gelcoat, although I might be able to find either a shop who knows (but would charge me an arm and a leg), or learn somehow how to do it myself. Is this a delicate job that needs someone with experience, or can the job be described in an e-mail?
My first thought was to take some 5 minute epoxy and glue the piece I have back on, but I guess there's more professional ways of doing this.
Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrei.
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Hi Chad, how did you figure out that you had water coming in between the hull and the hull liner? Thanks, Andrei.
The previous owner had drilled 2 holes near the base of the keel trunk in the cabin, he had stated to me that when sailing he tends to get a little water between the hull and hull liner. The holes were there so he could pump it out so it didn't freeze over the winter. I have always felt that rule #1 in boating was to keep the water out so we went about trying to get that problem taken care of right away. --Chad On Sep 29, 2008, at 9:57 AM, Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Hi Chad,
how did you figure out that you had water coming in between the hull and the hull liner?
Thanks,
Andrei.
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
I see. But how could I determine if I have water in the centerboard trunk without drilling out the holes your previous owner drilled? Andrei.
The holes in mine have since been filled in, I am assuming that the yard did a reasonable repair, however before this winter I intend to drill a hole into the hull liner to make sure there is no water in there, if there is and it freezes, that would be really bad. I am also tempted to drill a hole in the bottom of the keel and see if any water comes out. The damage that could be done by water freezing in the keel or between the hull and hull liner is a lot worse then just repairing two 1/4 inch holes, I also feel that is the only way I can be sure the repair was done and there are no more leaks. If you have a chunk missing from your keel and if your boat is out of the water, I imagine most of the water has come out. Before attempting a repair yourself you will want to make sure that the area is completely dry. If you bring your boat to a yard for the repair I am sure they will make sure everything is completely dry before repairing it. --Chad On Sep 29, 2008, at 10:26 AM, Andrei Caldararu wrote:
I see. But how could I determine if I have water in the centerboard trunk without drilling out the holes your previous owner drilled?
Andrei.
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Hello all, it appears the problem I mentioned earlier (the keel cracked at and below the centerboard stop pin) is much more difficult and serious than I thought before. I am writing to everyone in the hope that maybe someone has dealt with something similar and has some advice to give. Here is what I was able to see today at the boat yard I took my 1982 M-17 to. The stop pin is bent. On one side of the keel, a triangular piece of fiberglass has come off. It is about 1.5 x 1 in in size. On the other side of the pin the outside of the keel has a crack, about 2in long. It appears to not be just superficial, it is probably the fiberglass that is cracked. One other item that has started to concern me more is the fact that at the place where the keel (outer part, part of the hull) and the centerboard trunk come together, at the very bottom of the keel, there is no seal between them. Is that normal? Along the entire joint, along the length of the centerboard opening, there is a space about 1/16 of an inch between the two, on both sides of the cb opening. So water can go into what I assume must be the area of the keel to the left and right of the cb trunk. If that opening was sealed when the boat was new, how was it sealed? With regard to the cracks in the keel, the guy at the boat yard said I have two options. One way is to take the cb out, and repair the cb trunk where it is cracked (he said it probably is) from the inside, repair the crack in the outside hull, and lay up fiberglass where the missing piece is. Total cost would be about $3500 (ouch). Version two would be to do a repair only on the outside of the keel: grind away some of the existing fiberglass below the cb pin, and lay two or three layers of fiberglass cloth above the existing fiberglass. That would lead to having a small bulge on the keel below the cb stop pin, but he said it would probably not affect the sailing characteristics of the boat. Since this way he does not need to take out the cb, and does no repairs on the inside, the cost would be around $1300 (still quite a lot). He charges $90/hour, is this typical? My questions are: has anyone dealt with a similar problem? What is inside the keel between the cb trunk and the outer hull skin of the keel? Is it filled solid with lead? Does water getting in that area cause problems? I sail my boat from the trailer, so it doesn't have bottom paint and it would never sit in the water for more that a day at a time, perhaps a week per month if we were ever to go out on a trip somewhere. Any suggestions will be highly appreciated. Thanks, Andrei.
Hi Andrei, Just out of curiosity where are you? That seems to me to be a lot of time to fix the problem, at $90 an hour the yard is basically billing you for almost 40 hours of work. To put things in perspective, I had a yard here sandblast and reinstall my centerboard in addition to fixing the crack in my keel that was caused by dropping the centerboard too hard against it. This included them attempting to repair from the outside, which didn't work, and then cutting a hole in the side of the keel and repairing it from the inside. They also repaired inside the boat where the previous owner had cut away at the joint between the hull liner and and keel trunk. The total cost for this was $900. Perhaps the work that needs to be done on your boat is more extensive then mine but it doesn't sound like it is. Perhaps you may need a second opinion. If you are anywhere near Minnesota I can recommend a good place to go. As for the seal, i would suggest sanding it a bit and then fiber glassing over it, or else you could use 3M 5200, which is what probably was sealing it in the past or something like that, but I would suggest going the fiberglass route. Regards, Chad On Sep 30, 2008, at 11:59 AM, Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Hello all,
it appears the problem I mentioned earlier (the keel cracked at and below the centerboard stop pin) is much more difficult and serious than I thought before. I am writing to everyone in the hope that maybe someone has dealt with something similar and has some advice to give.
Here is what I was able to see today at the boat yard I took my 1982 M-17 to. The stop pin is bent. On one side of the keel, a triangular piece of fiberglass has come off. It is about 1.5 x 1 in in size. On the other side of the pin the outside of the keel has a crack, about 2in long. It appears to not be just superficial, it is probably the fiberglass that is cracked.
One other item that has started to concern me more is the fact that at the place where the keel (outer part, part of the hull) and the centerboard trunk come together, at the very bottom of the keel, there is no seal between them. Is that normal? Along the entire joint, along the length of the centerboard opening, there is a space about 1/16 of an inch between the two, on both sides of the cb opening. So water can go into what I assume must be the area of the keel to the left and right of the cb trunk. If that opening was sealed when the boat was new, how was it sealed?
With regard to the cracks in the keel, the guy at the boat yard said I have two options. One way is to take the cb out, and repair the cb trunk where it is cracked (he said it probably is) from the inside, repair the crack in the outside hull, and lay up fiberglass where the missing piece is. Total cost would be about $3500 (ouch). Version two would be to do a repair only on the outside of the keel: grind away some of the existing fiberglass below the cb pin, and lay two or three layers of fiberglass cloth above the existing fiberglass. That would lead to having a small bulge on the keel below the cb stop pin, but he said it would probably not affect the sailing characteristics of the boat. Since this way he does not need to take out the cb, and does no repairs on the inside, the cost would be around $1300 (still quite a lot). He charges $90/hour, is this typical?
My questions are: has anyone dealt with a similar problem? What is inside the keel between the cb trunk and the outer hull skin of the keel? Is it filled solid with lead? Does water getting in that area cause problems? I sail my boat from the trailer, so it doesn't have bottom paint and it would never sit in the water for more that a day at a time, perhaps a week per month if we were ever to go out on a trip somewhere.
Any suggestions will be highly appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrei.
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Hi Chad, thanks for your reply. I am in Madison, WI, which is not ridiculously far from MN. Where are you located? The guy at the local yard said the work would be 3-4 days (one day grind away the existing glass, one day to lay it up, one day to gelcoat it on), so 25-30 hours of work. He mentioned about $500 in materials. All this sounds excessive to me, but I have no prior experience with boat yards. If you can recommend a good place to go to, I'd appreciate it. Perhaps when they work on this they could also fiberglass the seal also, since I have little experience with any of this. Thanks, Andrei.
$500 in materials..?..LOL..more like 50 bucks. I can see 15 hours of work. The most important part would be to fix that open seam to prevent water from rusting your steel shot ballast and swelling up the trunk and pinching the centerboard. Once the board is removed and the boat is on the hoist a good glass man could grind, fill and lay a nice narrow bond around the perimeter of the trunk. Maybe 1.5 hours. As for the down-stop pin; simply remove it, (while your waiting for the seam to cure) and lay in some mat/clothe to fill the entire area. Block sand it; re-drill a new hole with a new stainless bolt. This area has no bearing on the water-tight integrity of the boat. The only difficult part is hoisting the boat in the air for the day and removing/re-installing the old centerboard. Perhaps you could move the wifes car to the street and hoist the boat with some Harbor Frieight chain-hoists in your garage....?...... While the board is out, might as well sand it and paint it with some primer and hard bottom paint. Good luck Bob (949) 489-8227
From: andreic@math.wisc.edu> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 12:44:54 -0500> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Repair needed for M-17> > Hi Chad,> > thanks for your reply. I am in Madison, WI, which is not ridiculously > far from MN. Where are you located? The guy at the local yard said the > work would be 3-4 days (one day grind away the existing glass, one day > to lay it up, one day to gelcoat it on), so 25-30 hours of work. He > mentioned about $500 in materials. All this sounds excessive to me, > but I have no prior experience with boat yards. If you can recommend a > good place to go to, I'd appreciate it.> > Perhaps when they work on this they could also fiberglass the seal > also, since I have little experience with any of this.> > Thanks,> > Andrei.> > > > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Hi Andrei, Based upon your E-mail address, it appears you are in the business of understanding numbers. When it comes to four digit repair projects, we should all be a bit analytical. You may want to see what is involved with a rapair such as this to understand first hand what either you, or a boatyard will go through to fix the problems. I will make you a better negotiator. Take a few minutes and check out the pages of similar projects, which have been documented on the Web. http://havasumontgomerys.piczo.com/?g=23004804&cr=1 As you look at these photos, think about this M23 being just like your M17, only larger. http://www.msogphotosite.com/M17MM.html This link is the album directory for lots of M-17, CB removal projects. These examples of some pretty serious repairs were completed by fellow Monty owners, none of which are in the business of repairing boats. There are examples of boat lifting in the garage and in the driveway under the Maintenance and Modifications sections which you may also find helpful. One here at: http://www.msogphotosite.com/GenMM.html And more (M-15) here: http://www.msogphotosite.com/M15MM.html I am not suggesting you do this yourself as we all have our limits when it comes to technical stuff. However, if you have a digital camera, with winter coming up, you may be able to turn this into a long project, while sending photo back and forth to one of these guys who have done this before, and could tell you where to go for information, parts, materials, etc. My first thought: Buy the book by Don Casey $22.00 "Hull and deck repair" Easy to read and understand. Had to throw in my $.02 Bill
Andrei: Bob has it right, but if you are not comfortable doing that type of work (there is some danger working under it), talk to the guys at Hoopers: http://www.hoopersyachts.com/ They have a great glass man who knows the boat and the repair you need. Howard On Sep 30, 2008, at 11:59 AM, Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Hello all,
it appears the problem I mentioned earlier (the keel cracked at and below the centerboard stop pin) is much more difficult and serious than I thought before. I am writing to everyone in the hope that maybe someone has dealt with something similar and has some advice to give.
Here is what I was able to see today at the boat yard I took my 1982 M-17 to. The stop pin is bent. On one side of the keel, a triangular piece of fiberglass has come off. It is about 1.5 x 1 in in size. On the other side of the pin the outside of the keel has a crack, about 2in long. It appears to not be just superficial, it is probably the fiberglass that is cracked.
One other item that has started to concern me more is the fact that at the place where the keel (outer part, part of the hull) and the centerboard trunk come together, at the very bottom of the keel, there is no seal between them. Is that normal? Along the entire joint, along the length of the centerboard opening, there is a space about 1/16 of an inch between the two, on both sides of the cb opening. So water can go into what I assume must be the area of the keel to the left and right of the cb trunk. If that opening was sealed when the boat was new, how was it sealed?
With regard to the cracks in the keel, the guy at the boat yard said I have two options. One way is to take the cb out, and repair the cb trunk where it is cracked (he said it probably is) from the inside, repair the crack in the outside hull, and lay up fiberglass where the missing piece is. Total cost would be about $3500 (ouch). Version two would be to do a repair only on the outside of the keel: grind away some of the existing fiberglass below the cb pin, and lay two or three layers of fiberglass cloth above the existing fiberglass. That would lead to having a small bulge on the keel below the cb stop pin, but he said it would probably not affect the sailing characteristics of the boat. Since this way he does not need to take out the cb, and does no repairs on the inside, the cost would be around $1300 (still quite a lot). He charges $90/hour, is this typical?
My questions are: has anyone dealt with a similar problem? What is inside the keel between the cb trunk and the outer hull skin of the keel? Is it filled solid with lead? Does water getting in that area cause problems? I sail my boat from the trailer, so it doesn't have bottom paint and it would never sit in the water for more that a day at a time, perhaps a week per month if we were ever to go out on a trip somewhere.
Any suggestions will be highly appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrei.
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Hi Howard, Hoopers is just who I used to repair my boat which is a lot like Andrei's situation. I just sent him (off list) my recommendation of them as well. They used to be a dealer for Montgomery boats and I believe they know the boat very well. --Chad On Sep 30, 2008, at 1:53 PM, Howard Audsley wrote:
Andrei:
Bob has it right, but if you are not comfortable doing that type of work (there is some danger working under it), talk to the guys at Hoopers:
They have a great glass man who knows the boat and the repair you need.
Howard
On Sep 30, 2008, at 11:59 AM, Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Hello all,
it appears the problem I mentioned earlier (the keel cracked at and below the centerboard stop pin) is much more difficult and serious than I thought before. I am writing to everyone in the hope that maybe someone has dealt with something similar and has some advice to give.
Here is what I was able to see today at the boat yard I took my 1982 M-17 to. The stop pin is bent. On one side of the keel, a triangular piece of fiberglass has come off. It is about 1.5 x 1 in in size. On the other side of the pin the outside of the keel has a crack, about 2in long. It appears to not be just superficial, it is probably the fiberglass that is cracked.
One other item that has started to concern me more is the fact that at the place where the keel (outer part, part of the hull) and the centerboard trunk come together, at the very bottom of the keel, there is no seal between them. Is that normal? Along the entire joint, along the length of the centerboard opening, there is a space about 1/16 of an inch between the two, on both sides of the cb opening. So water can go into what I assume must be the area of the keel to the left and right of the cb trunk. If that opening was sealed when the boat was new, how was it sealed?
With regard to the cracks in the keel, the guy at the boat yard said I have two options. One way is to take the cb out, and repair the cb trunk where it is cracked (he said it probably is) from the inside, repair the crack in the outside hull, and lay up fiberglass where the missing piece is. Total cost would be about $3500 (ouch). Version two would be to do a repair only on the outside of the keel: grind away some of the existing fiberglass below the cb pin, and lay two or three layers of fiberglass cloth above the existing fiberglass. That would lead to having a small bulge on the keel below the cb stop pin, but he said it would probably not affect the sailing characteristics of the boat. Since this way he does not need to take out the cb, and does no repairs on the inside, the cost would be around $1300 (still quite a lot). He charges $90/hour, is this typical?
My questions are: has anyone dealt with a similar problem? What is inside the keel between the cb trunk and the outer hull skin of the keel? Is it filled solid with lead? Does water getting in that area cause problems? I sail my boat from the trailer, so it doesn't have bottom paint and it would never sit in the water for more that a day at a time, perhaps a week per month if we were ever to go out on a trip somewhere.
Any suggestions will be highly appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrei.
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Two more questions: a) How can I determine if water has entered the steel ballast area? If it has, what is the best way to remove it? b) If the damage is not only to the outer skin, but also to the centerboard trunk, around the stop pin, will fixing only the outer hull layer of the keel not compromise the water tightness of the steel ballast area? Or is the entire ballast area higher than the stop pin? Andrei.
Water has more then likely entered your metal ballast, but since it sounds like you have a hole in the bottom of the keel excess water should have been able to drain. Hoopers will probably drill a few holes in the side of the keel and put some heat lamps and fans on it for awhile to dry everything out. Thats what they did with mine and is why I didn't have my boat from the last week in June through the end of August. I made the decision to just leave the iron ballast in place at this time since it had already started to rust and I could see if there was to be any expansion it had plenty of room to expand. I also figured that it wouldn't continue to rust since hoopers was able to dry everything out and then make my keel waterproof again. This is what they had recommended. They seemed happy leaving the ballast in place and willing to guide me towards solutions that saved me money which I always appreciate a good yard to do. --Chad On Sep 30, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Two more questions:
a) How can I determine if water has entered the steel ballast area? If it has, what is the best way to remove it?
b) If the damage is not only to the outer skin, but also to the centerboard trunk, around the stop pin, will fixing only the outer hull layer of the keel not compromise the water tightness of the steel ballast area? Or is the entire ballast area higher than the stop pin?
Andrei.
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participants (5)
-
Andrei Caldararu -
Bill Lamica -
Bob From California -
Chad Parrish -
Howard Audsley