I was just cleaning out my M-17 for the winter and I was surprised that the bilge was about three-quarters full of water. A small amount of water may have run in after spurting through the centerboard pennant hole (I generally keep it plugged, though), but I doubt that would have been enough to nearly fill the bilge. Also, the portable hand pump I had sitting partly in the bilge had a bit of rust-colored slime on it, suggesting that maybe the water came through the keel. I had the boat's keel trunk and centerboard worked on last winter to relieve a sticking board. When the shop first cut a hole in the keel to check for rusting ballast, they mistakenly cut partly through to the bilge on the first try (about a 2.5" diameter hole). Of course they reglassed everything, but I can still feel the cut round hole at the very bottom inside of the bilge right where the keel trunk is walled off. My questions are: 1. Does anyone else get much water in their bilge? I assume a completely dry bilge is the norm. I kept my boat on its trailer during the season, with the exception of a couple four- to five-day cruises. 2. Does anyone have suggestions on how to ensure a dry bilge in this situation? I suppose I could cover that hole area with a layer of thickened epoxy, but it's a tough area to access and clean and see what you're doing. Again, I'm not certain that the water came through this previously cut area. Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Gordon M-17 #377 "Sapphire" Milwaukee
I keep reading about a "bilge" on the 17's, but Audasea doesn't have one. Just a flat extension of the cabin sole back under the cockpit. Would be interesting to see one with a bilge and to hear from Jerry if they built them different back when. One way to find out where the water gets in is to see where it seeps out. Pull her out and pump the bilge full of water and wait to see where it drips out. My guess is is will be inside the bottom of the CB trunk, where the walls of the trunk meet the edge of the CB slot. I've never heard anyone say, but I think the way it's built is the entire stub keel is layed up in the mold, and after the hull was popped from the mold and the hull turned, the slot was cut, CB trunk installed, ballast installed on both sides of the trunk and then sealed up....either on top of the ballast, leaving a bilge, or well above the ballast, level with the cabin sole, leaving a "dead space" between the top of the ballast and bottom of the now sealed off sole. Over time, the material and joint used to seal up the CB trunk walls and keel stub goes south and the joint gives out, allowing water to seep into the ballast cavity. With the steel or iron ballast, you can get rusting and swelling. With lead, not much happens, except water collects. The fix would be to clean out the crack, dry her out, fill the crack with thickened epoxy and they put a layer of glass tape over it. Sand all that smooth then put some bottom paint over it. Howard M17 #278 Audasea On Oct 19, 2008, at 11:46 AM, Gordon Gilbert wrote:
I was just cleaning out my M-17 for the winter and I was surprised that the bilge was about three-quarters full of water. A small amount of water may have run in after spurting through the centerboard pennant hole (I generally keep it plugged, though), but I doubt that would have been enough to nearly fill the bilge. Also, the portable hand pump I had sitting partly in the bilge had a bit of rust-colored slime on it, suggesting that maybe the water came through the keel.
I had the boat's keel trunk and centerboard worked on last winter to relieve a sticking board. When the shop first cut a hole in the keel to check for rusting ballast, they mistakenly cut partly through to the bilge on the first try (about a 2.5" diameter hole). Of course they reglassed everything, but I can still feel the cut round hole at the very bottom inside of the bilge right where the keel trunk is walled off.
My questions are:
1. Does anyone else get much water in their bilge? I assume a completely dry bilge is the norm. I kept my boat on its trailer during the season, with the exception of a couple four- to five-day cruises.
2. Does anyone have suggestions on how to ensure a dry bilge in this situation? I suppose I could cover that hole area with a layer of thickened epoxy, but it's a tough area to access and clean and see what you're doing. Again, I'm not certain that the water came through this previously cut area.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Gordon M-17 #377 "Sapphire" Milwaukee
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I assume by M17 "bilge" you mean the small (maybe 1-gallon capacity max?) depression under the cockpit and behind the centerboard pennant tube. Mine has always been dry when I checked it. --Gary Hyde 2005 M17 sailboat #637 'Hydeaway 2' We can't change the wind, but we can trim our sails. Sailing is like "African Queening" thru life. On Oct 19, 2008, at 10:01 AM, Howard Audsley wrote:
I keep reading about a "bilge" on the 17's, but Audasea doesn't have one. Just a flat extension of the cabin sole back under the cockpit. Would be interesting to see one with a bilge and to hear from Jerry if they built them different back when.
One way to find out where the water gets in is to see where it seeps out. Pull her out and pump the bilge full of water and wait to see where it drips out.
My guess is is will be inside the bottom of the CB trunk, where the walls of the trunk meet the edge of the CB slot.
I've never heard anyone say, but I think the way it's built is the entire stub keel is layed up in the mold, and after the hull was popped from the mold and the hull turned, the slot was cut, CB trunk installed, ballast installed on both sides of the trunk and then sealed up....either on top of the ballast, leaving a bilge, or well above the ballast, level with the cabin sole, leaving a "dead space" between the top of the ballast and bottom of the now sealed off sole.
Over time, the material and joint used to seal up the CB trunk walls and keel stub goes south and the joint gives out, allowing water to seep into the ballast cavity. With the steel or iron ballast, you can get rusting and swelling. With lead, not much happens, except water collects. The fix would be to clean out the crack, dry her out, fill the crack with thickened epoxy and they put a layer of glass tape over it. Sand all that smooth then put some bottom paint over it.
Howard M17 #278 Audasea
On Oct 19, 2008, at 11:46 AM, Gordon Gilbert wrote:
I was just cleaning out my M-17 for the winter and I was surprised that the bilge was about three-quarters full of water. A small amount of water may have run in after spurting through the centerboard pennant hole (I generally keep it plugged, though), but I doubt that would have been enough to nearly fill the bilge. Also, the portable hand pump I had sitting partly in the bilge had a bit of rust-colored slime on it, suggesting that maybe the water came through the keel.
I had the boat's keel trunk and centerboard worked on last winter to relieve a sticking board. When the shop first cut a hole in the keel to check for rusting ballast, they mistakenly cut partly through to the bilge on the first try (about a 2.5" diameter hole). Of course they reglassed everything, but I can still feel the cut round hole at the very bottom inside of the bilge right where the keel trunk is walled off.
My questions are:
1. Does anyone else get much water in their bilge? I assume a completely dry bilge is the norm. I kept my boat on its trailer during the season, with the exception of a couple four- to five-day cruises.
2. Does anyone have suggestions on how to ensure a dry bilge in this situation? I suppose I could cover that hole area with a layer of thickened epoxy, but it's a tough area to access and clean and see what you're doing. Again, I'm not certain that the water came through this previously cut area.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Gordon M-17 #377 "Sapphire" Milwaukee
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Yes, by "bilge" I mean the hollow area in the keel below the cockpit and behind the walled-off centerboard trunk. Thanks for your suggestions, Howard. Part of the keel work I had done last winter was to epoxy-seal the gap between the keel/hull and the inner centerboard trunk. I'll inspect the repair and make sure it's in good shape. Gordon On Oct 19, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Howard Audsley wrote:
I keep reading about a "bilge" on the 17's, but Audasea doesn't have one. Just a flat extension of the cabin sole back under the cockpit. Would be interesting to see one with a bilge and to hear from Jerry if they built them different back when.
One way to find out where the water gets in is to see where it seeps out. Pull her out and pump the bilge full of water and wait to see where it drips out.
My guess is is will be inside the bottom of the CB trunk, where the walls of the trunk meet the edge of the CB slot.
I've never heard anyone say, but I think the way it's built is the entire stub keel is layed up in the mold, and after the hull was popped from the mold and the hull turned, the slot was cut, CB trunk installed, ballast installed on both sides of the trunk and then sealed up....either on top of the ballast, leaving a bilge, or well above the ballast, level with the cabin sole, leaving a "dead space" between the top of the ballast and bottom of the now sealed off sole.
Over time, the material and joint used to seal up the CB trunk walls and keel stub goes south and the joint gives out, allowing water to seep into the ballast cavity. With the steel or iron ballast, you can get rusting and swelling. With lead, not much happens, except water collects. The fix would be to clean out the crack, dry her out, fill the crack with thickened epoxy and they put a layer of glass tape over it. Sand all that smooth then put some bottom paint over it.
Howard M17 #278 Audasea
On Oct 19, 2008, at 11:46 AM, Gordon Gilbert wrote:
I was just cleaning out my M-17 for the winter and I was surprised that the bilge was about three-quarters full of water. A small amount of water may have run in after spurting through the centerboard pennant hole (I generally keep it plugged, though), but I doubt that would have been enough to nearly fill the bilge. Also, the portable hand pump I had sitting partly in the bilge had a bit of rust-colored slime on it, suggesting that maybe the water came through the keel.
I had the boat's keel trunk and centerboard worked on last winter to relieve a sticking board. When the shop first cut a hole in the keel to check for rusting ballast, they mistakenly cut partly through to the bilge on the first try (about a 2.5" diameter hole). Of course they reglassed everything, but I can still feel the cut round hole at the very bottom inside of the bilge right where the keel trunk is walled off.
My questions are:
1. Does anyone else get much water in their bilge? I assume a completely dry bilge is the norm. I kept my boat on its trailer during the season, with the exception of a couple four- to five-day cruises.
2. Does anyone have suggestions on how to ensure a dry bilge in this situation? I suppose I could cover that hole area with a layer of thickened epoxy, but it's a tough area to access and clean and see what you're doing. Again, I'm not certain that the water came through this previously cut area.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Gordon M-17 #377 "Sapphire" Milwaukee
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Yes, we did them both ways, depending on the density of the steel punchings. jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 10:01 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bilge full of water
I keep reading about a "bilge" on the 17's, but Audasea doesn't have one. Just a flat extension of the cabin sole back under the cockpit. Would be interesting to see one with a bilge and to hear from Jerry if they built them different back when.
One way to find out where the water gets in is to see where it seeps out. Pull her out and pump the bilge full of water and wait to see where it drips out.
My guess is is will be inside the bottom of the CB trunk, where the walls of the trunk meet the edge of the CB slot.
I've never heard anyone say, but I think the way it's built is the entire stub keel is layed up in the mold, and after the hull was popped from the mold and the hull turned, the slot was cut, CB trunk installed, ballast installed on both sides of the trunk and then sealed up....either on top of the ballast, leaving a bilge, or well above the ballast, level with the cabin sole, leaving a "dead space" between the top of the ballast and bottom of the now sealed off sole.
Over time, the material and joint used to seal up the CB trunk walls and keel stub goes south and the joint gives out, allowing water to seep into the ballast cavity. With the steel or iron ballast, you can get rusting and swelling. With lead, not much happens, except water collects. The fix would be to clean out the crack, dry her out, fill the crack with thickened epoxy and they put a layer of glass tape over it. Sand all that smooth then put some bottom paint over it.
Howard M17 #278 Audasea
On Oct 19, 2008, at 11:46 AM, Gordon Gilbert wrote:
I was just cleaning out my M-17 for the winter and I was surprised that the bilge was about three-quarters full of water. A small amount of water may have run in after spurting through the centerboard pennant hole (I generally keep it plugged, though), but I doubt that would have been enough to nearly fill the bilge. Also, the portable hand pump I had sitting partly in the bilge had a bit of rust-colored slime on it, suggesting that maybe the water came through the keel.
I had the boat's keel trunk and centerboard worked on last winter to relieve a sticking board. When the shop first cut a hole in the keel to check for rusting ballast, they mistakenly cut partly through to the bilge on the first try (about a 2.5" diameter hole). Of course they reglassed everything, but I can still feel the cut round hole at the very bottom inside of the bilge right where the keel trunk is walled off.
My questions are:
1. Does anyone else get much water in their bilge? I assume a completely dry bilge is the norm. I kept my boat on its trailer during the season, with the exception of a couple four- to five-day cruises.
2. Does anyone have suggestions on how to ensure a dry bilge in this situation? I suppose I could cover that hole area with a layer of thickened epoxy, but it's a tough area to access and clean and see what you're doing. Again, I'm not certain that the water came through this previously cut area.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Gordon M-17 #377 "Sapphire" Milwaukee
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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-- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1732 - Release Date: 10/18/2008 6:01 PM
Howard, you are welcome to drive west to see Osprey IIs bilge. She is at Perry Lake, north of Lawrence. Thomas Howe Mailto:Thomas@TEHowe.com O --------(\ ---------- ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Howard Audsley Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 12:01 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bilge full of water I keep reading about a "bilge" on the 17's, but Audasea doesn't have one. Just a flat extension of the cabin sole back under the cockpit. Would be interesting to see one with a bilge and to hear from Jerry if they built them different back when. One way to find out where the water gets in is to see where it seeps out. Pull her out and pump the bilge full of water and wait to see where it drips out. My guess is is will be inside the bottom of the CB trunk, where the walls of the trunk meet the edge of the CB slot. I've never heard anyone say, but I think the way it's built is the entire stub keel is layed up in the mold, and after the hull was popped from the mold and the hull turned, the slot was cut, CB trunk installed, ballast installed on both sides of the trunk and then sealed up....either on top of the ballast, leaving a bilge, or well above the ballast, level with the cabin sole, leaving a "dead space" between the top of the ballast and bottom of the now sealed off sole. Over time, the material and joint used to seal up the CB trunk walls and keel stub goes south and the joint gives out, allowing water to seep into the ballast cavity. With the steel or iron ballast, you can get rusting and swelling. With lead, not much happens, except water collects. The fix would be to clean out the crack, dry her out, fill the crack with thickened epoxy and they put a layer of glass tape over it. Sand all that smooth then put some bottom paint over it. Howard M17 #278 Audasea On Oct 19, 2008, at 11:46 AM, Gordon Gilbert wrote:
I was just cleaning out my M-17 for the winter and I was surprised that the bilge was about three-quarters full of water. A small amount of water may have run in after spurting through the centerboard pennant hole (I generally keep it plugged, though), but I doubt that would have been enough to nearly fill the bilge. Also, the portable hand pump I had sitting partly in the bilge had a bit of rust-colored slime on it, suggesting that maybe the water came through the keel.
I had the boat's keel trunk and centerboard worked on last winter to relieve a sticking board. When the shop first cut a hole in the keel to check for rusting ballast, they mistakenly cut partly through to the bilge on the first try (about a 2.5" diameter hole). Of course they reglassed everything, but I can still feel the cut round hole at the very bottom inside of the bilge right where the keel trunk is walled off.
My questions are:
1. Does anyone else get much water in their bilge? I assume a completely dry bilge is the norm. I kept my boat on its trailer during the season, with the exception of a couple four- to five-day cruises.
2. Does anyone have suggestions on how to ensure a dry bilge in this situation? I suppose I could cover that hole area with a layer of thickened epoxy, but it's a tough area to access and clean and see what you're doing. Again, I'm not certain that the water came through this previously cut area.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Gordon M-17 #377 "Sapphire" Milwaukee
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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One important area to check when there is mystery water in the M17 bilge is the cockpit drain hoses and more particularly the through hulls to which they attach. When I first purchased my M17 I had unexplained water in the bilge. I wriggled back under the cockpit with a flashlight to investigate with the boat at the dock. I found a tiny bit of water dripping at the outlet end of one of the cockpit drain hoses and when I grabbed it to check more closely I stuck my thumb right through the metal nipple that was glassed into the hull as the attachment point for the drain hose! I quickly got the boat on the trailer and home for repairs. Since those outlets on the M17s are below the waterline a failure far from shore could be a disaster. The repair involved cutting out the old through hulls and glassing in some new 1-1/2" stainless steel tubing in their place. I was a total fiberglass repair novice at the time but it was doable with a little research and slow steady work. It was especially helpful that it didn't have to be cosmetically perfect, just strong. Check it out closely now, and make it an annual winter maintenance procedure to check those. You'll be glad you know the condition of the darkest recesses of your vessel. Mark Dvorscak Former M17 owner -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Gilbert Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 9:46 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Bilge full of water I was just cleaning out my M-17 for the winter and I was surprised that the bilge was about three-quarters full of water. A small amount of water may have run in after spurting through the centerboard pennant hole (I generally keep it plugged, though), but I doubt that would have been enough to nearly fill the bilge. Also, the portable hand pump I had sitting partly in the bilge had a bit of rust-colored slime on it, suggesting that maybe the water came through the keel. I had the boat's keel trunk and centerboard worked on last winter to relieve a sticking board. When the shop first cut a hole in the keel to check for rusting ballast, they mistakenly cut partly through to the bilge on the first try (about a 2.5" diameter hole). Of course they reglassed everything, but I can still feel the cut round hole at the very bottom inside of the bilge right where the keel trunk is walled off. My questions are: 1. Does anyone else get much water in their bilge? I assume a completely dry bilge is the norm. I kept my boat on its trailer during the season, with the exception of a couple four- to five-day cruises. 2. Does anyone have suggestions on how to ensure a dry bilge in this situation? I suppose I could cover that hole area with a layer of thickened epoxy, but it's a tough area to access and clean and see what you're doing. Again, I'm not certain that the water came through this previously cut area. Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Gordon M-17 #377 "Sapphire" Milwaukee _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1732 - Release Date: 10/18/2008 6:01 PM
Good point, Mark. I squeezed back in that space yesterday to unbolt and remove my original fixed motor mount. It's definitely a tight fit! I'll get in there again and check out Sapphire's cockpit drain fittings and signs of leakage. Thanks! Gordon On Oct 20, 2008, at 10:50 PM, Roberta Dvorscak wrote:
One important area to check when there is mystery water in the M17 bilge is the cockpit drain hoses and more particularly the through hulls to which they attach. When I first purchased my M17 I had unexplained water in the bilge. I wriggled back under the cockpit with a flashlight to investigate with the boat at the dock. I found a tiny bit of water dripping at the outlet end of one of the cockpit drain hoses and when I grabbed it to check more closely I stuck my thumb right through the metal nipple that was glassed into the hull as the attachment point for the drain hose! I quickly got the boat on the trailer and home for repairs. Since those outlets on the M17s are below the waterline a failure far from shore could be a disaster. The repair involved cutting out the old through hulls and glassing in some new 1-1/2" stainless steel tubing in their place. I was a total fiberglass repair novice at the time but it was doable with a little research and slow steady work. It was especially helpful that it didn't have to be cosmetically perfect, just strong. Check it out closely now, and make it an annual winter maintenance procedure to check those. You'll be glad you know the condition of the darkest recesses of your vessel. Mark Dvorscak Former M17 owner
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Gilbert Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 9:46 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Bilge full of water
I was just cleaning out my M-17 for the winter and I was surprised that the bilge was about three-quarters full of water. A small amount of water may have run in after spurting through the centerboard pennant hole (I generally keep it plugged, though), but I doubt that would have been enough to nearly fill the bilge. Also, the portable hand pump I had sitting partly in the bilge had a bit of rust-colored slime on it, suggesting that maybe the water came through the keel.
I had the boat's keel trunk and centerboard worked on last winter to relieve a sticking board. When the shop first cut a hole in the keel to check for rusting ballast, they mistakenly cut partly through to the bilge on the first try (about a 2.5" diameter hole). Of course they reglassed everything, but I can still feel the cut round hole at the very bottom inside of the bilge right where the keel trunk is walled off.
My questions are:
1. Does anyone else get much water in their bilge? I assume a completely dry bilge is the norm. I kept my boat on its trailer during the season, with the exception of a couple four- to five-day cruises.
2. Does anyone have suggestions on how to ensure a dry bilge in this situation? I suppose I could cover that hole area with a layer of thickened epoxy, but it's a tough area to access and clean and see what you're doing. Again, I'm not certain that the water came through this previously cut area.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Gordon M-17 #377 "Sapphire" Milwaukee
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1732 - Release Date: 10/18/2008 6:01 PM
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participants (6)
-
Gary M Hyde -
Gordon Gilbert -
Howard Audsley -
jerry -
Roberta Dvorscak -
Thomas Howe