Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
In my opinion most modern watercooled 4-stroke outboards are just too heavy for use on sailboats. There's no way an M17 or M15 would sail properly with 65lbs hanging off the stern. I would refurb your existing motor. Buying a new motor wouldn't even save you much time because this sort of maintenance should be done frequently anyways, even on a new motor. I have an early 80s Yamaha 2hp and am really happy with it... it weighs only about 19 lbs and has never let me down. I replaced all of the wear items with brand new components, and keep a tupperware box with a full stock of replacement factory new components onboard at all times. Sincerely, Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 12:40:00 PM Subject: M_Boats: Motor for M17 Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
Andrei, I am a recent M17 owner and went through a similar delima. I opted for the 4HP Tohatsu because of the reverse and I didn't feel the need for the alternator. I'll try to attach some pictures showing my mount in subsequent emails, but I know there are size limits on pictures which might preclude sending. My M17 is from 1977 and has the "notch" in the transom for the motor. Because of the size of the motor relative to the notch, the motor is only useful for propulsion only. Steering is via the tiller. The reversing gear works well for getting the boat off of the trailer and for arresting speed when docking. I don't have much experience with outboards, but the motor is no excessively noisy, although I am happy when I can switch it off. When under way with the motor up, I didn't feel like the motor was in the way. I will say that 4HP is plenty sufficient for the lake in which I have sailed with little wind. I have no experience in larger bodies of water or windy conditions where a larger motor might be more useful. When trailering, I made a mount for the motor on the forward section of the trailer. 65 pounds is a bit, but I found it wasn't too much when using my legs for lifting. I am in my mid 50's, 170 pounds, and 6'-1" tall and don't have too much trouble at this stage move the motor from the trailer mount to the transom notch. I can't really comment on the rebuild. Regards, Rob On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:40 PM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
Transom mount 1. On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Andrei,
I am a recent M17 owner and went through a similar delima. I opted for the 4HP Tohatsu because of the reverse and I didn't feel the need for the alternator. I'll try to attach some pictures showing my mount in subsequent emails, but I know there are size limits on pictures which might preclude sending. My M17 is from 1977 and has the "notch" in the transom for the motor. Because of the size of the motor relative to the notch, the motor is only useful for propulsion only. Steering is via the tiller. The reversing gear works well for getting the boat off of the trailer and for arresting speed when docking. I don't have much experience with outboards, but the motor is no excessively noisy, although I am happy when I can switch it off.
When under way with the motor up, I didn't feel like the motor was in the way. I will say that 4HP is plenty sufficient for the lake in which I have sailed with little wind. I have no experience in larger bodies of water or windy conditions where a larger motor might be more useful. When trailering, I made a mount for the motor on the forward section of the trailer. 65 pounds is a bit, but I found it wasn't too much when using my legs for lifting. I am in my mid 50's, 170 pounds, and 6'-1" tall and don't have too much trouble at this stage move the motor from the trailer mount to the transom notch.
I can't really comment on the rebuild.
Regards, Rob
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:40 PM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
Cockpit view, motor up On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:36 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Transom mount 1.
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Andrei,
I am a recent M17 owner and went through a similar delima. I opted for the 4HP Tohatsu because of the reverse and I didn't feel the need for the alternator. I'll try to attach some pictures showing my mount in subsequent emails, but I know there are size limits on pictures which might preclude sending. My M17 is from 1977 and has the "notch" in the transom for the motor. Because of the size of the motor relative to the notch, the motor is only useful for propulsion only. Steering is via the tiller. The reversing gear works well for getting the boat off of the trailer and for arresting speed when docking. I don't have much experience with outboards, but the motor is no excessively noisy, although I am happy when I can switch it off.
When under way with the motor up, I didn't feel like the motor was in the way. I will say that 4HP is plenty sufficient for the lake in which I have sailed with little wind. I have no experience in larger bodies of water or windy conditions where a larger motor might be more useful. When trailering, I made a mount for the motor on the forward section of the trailer. 65 pounds is a bit, but I found it wasn't too much when using my legs for lifting. I am in my mid 50's, 170 pounds, and 6'-1" tall and don't have too much trouble at this stage move the motor from the trailer mount to the transom notch.
I can't really comment on the rebuild.
Regards, Rob
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:40 PM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
Motor up, external view On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:37 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Cockpit view, motor up
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:36 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Transom mount 1.
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Andrei,
I am a recent M17 owner and went through a similar delima. I opted for the 4HP Tohatsu because of the reverse and I didn't feel the need for the alternator. I'll try to attach some pictures showing my mount in subsequent emails, but I know there are size limits on pictures which might preclude sending. My M17 is from 1977 and has the "notch" in the transom for the motor. Because of the size of the motor relative to the notch, the motor is only useful for propulsion only. Steering is via the tiller. The reversing gear works well for getting the boat off of the trailer and for arresting speed when docking. I don't have much experience with outboards, but the motor is no excessively noisy, although I am happy when I can switch it off.
When under way with the motor up, I didn't feel like the motor was in the way. I will say that 4HP is plenty sufficient for the lake in which I have sailed with little wind. I have no experience in larger bodies of water or windy conditions where a larger motor might be more useful. When trailering, I made a mount for the motor on the forward section of the trailer. 65 pounds is a bit, but I found it wasn't too much when using my legs for lifting. I am in my mid 50's, 170 pounds, and 6'-1" tall and don't have too much trouble at this stage move the motor from the trailer mount to the transom notch.
I can't really comment on the rebuild.
Regards, Rob
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:40 PM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
Motor down, external view On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:37 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Motor up, external view
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:37 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Cockpit view, motor up
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:36 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Transom mount 1.
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Andrei,
I am a recent M17 owner and went through a similar delima. I opted for the 4HP Tohatsu because of the reverse and I didn't feel the need for the alternator. I'll try to attach some pictures showing my mount in subsequent emails, but I know there are size limits on pictures which might preclude sending. My M17 is from 1977 and has the "notch" in the transom for the motor. Because of the size of the motor relative to the notch, the motor is only useful for propulsion only. Steering is via the tiller. The reversing gear works well for getting the boat off of the trailer and for arresting speed when docking. I don't have much experience with outboards, but the motor is no excessively noisy, although I am happy when I can switch it off.
When under way with the motor up, I didn't feel like the motor was in the way. I will say that 4HP is plenty sufficient for the lake in which I have sailed with little wind. I have no experience in larger bodies of water or windy conditions where a larger motor might be more useful. When trailering, I made a mount for the motor on the forward section of the trailer. 65 pounds is a bit, but I found it wasn't too much when using my legs for lifting. I am in my mid 50's, 170 pounds, and 6'-1" tall and don't have too much trouble at this stage move the motor from the trailer mount to the transom notch.
I can't really comment on the rebuild.
Regards, Rob
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:40 PM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
Trailer mount On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:38 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Motor down, external view
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:37 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Motor up, external view
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:37 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Cockpit view, motor up
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:36 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Transom mount 1.
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:35 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Andrei,
I am a recent M17 owner and went through a similar delima. I opted for the 4HP Tohatsu because of the reverse and I didn't feel the need for the alternator. I'll try to attach some pictures showing my mount in subsequent emails, but I know there are size limits on pictures which might preclude sending. My M17 is from 1977 and has the "notch" in the transom for the motor. Because of the size of the motor relative to the notch, the motor is only useful for propulsion only. Steering is via the tiller. The reversing gear works well for getting the boat off of the trailer and for arresting speed when docking. I don't have much experience with outboards, but the motor is no excessively noisy, although I am happy when I can switch it off.
When under way with the motor up, I didn't feel like the motor was in the way. I will say that 4HP is plenty sufficient for the lake in which I have sailed with little wind. I have no experience in larger bodies of water or windy conditions where a larger motor might be more useful. When trailering, I made a mount for the motor on the forward section of the trailer. 65 pounds is a bit, but I found it wasn't too much when using my legs for lifting. I am in my mid 50's, 170 pounds, and 6'-1" tall and don't have too much trouble at this stage move the motor from the trailer mount to the transom notch.
I can't really comment on the rebuild.
Regards, Rob
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:40 PM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
Hi Andrei,With a name like yours, I couldn't help but respond, ha ha.I'm not a Monty owner and I've never posted on this forum before, so I have no idea if this will get through. Having said that .....I sail 2 Com-Pac catboats. A 14' Picnic Cat - 500 lb centerboarder, and a 20' Horizon Cat - 3000 lb keel/centerboarder. I swap my motor between the boats as needed. It's a 2008 2 HP Honda 4-stroke long (20) shaft weighing 30 lbs. No transmission or alternator but it has a centrifugal clutch - rotate it for reverse. Only failed to start once after 10 years - original fouled plug - replaced it and it fired right up. It's somewhat noisy but totally reliable and air cooled so no impeller.I sail on a medium sized lake (2×2 miles) so no waves to speak of, tides, or currents but I've been able to power into a 25 mph breeze in the Horizon Cat. Total overkill for the Picnic Cat. It should handle your 17.Change the engine oil and hypoid gear oil, and use gasoline additives or no-alcohol gas and it'll serve you well in my opinion.Andre Casanova(hence my opening remark)Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: 10/13/20 3:40 PM (GMT-05:00) To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Motor for M17 Hello fellow Monty owners,my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs!As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering.Three questions:a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17.c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc.Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
There's been several prior long threads on motors in the last couple years, you might look those up in the archives. They cover about all the ground there is to cover. There are a few more propane options in the last year or two. They all weigh within a pound or two of equivalent gas HP. My succinct summary: For any reasonably recent production outboard - if you want a reverse gear, you have to get a 4hp or up. No reverse on smaller ones. That will be a ~58-60 lb. motor, if Tohatsu/Mercury or Honda. Suzuki claims a handful of lbs. lighter (54-55 for the 4 or 6). For quite a while now, in 4-6 hp range, all manufacturers use same carcass (they just strangle the carb to reduce HP rating). That means same weight for 4, 5, or 6 hp. I am a gear-head and research things thoroughly (especially when they cost as much as a new outboard). After lots of study and inquiry, I ended up getting a Honda 2.3hp long shaft and I'm quite happy with it. It is simple and reliable and light (30 lbs). Sips fuel for the most part. There's also the Suzuki 2.5hp - might be a bit quieter (water cooled vs. air cooled - and, needs cooling system maintenance). It's cheaper than the Honda by ~$150. F-N gearbox instead of centrifugal clutch. Don't know how it compares for quality/reliability. Same weight. Add 10-12 lbs, and you can get a 3.5 Tohatsu/Mercury. Still no reverse gear though. Those are your options, basically, unless you find some unusual make or something used from another era that suits better. I have tested my Honda 2.3hp on my M17 in glassy water to high winds with resultant chop (20-25 and gusty). It has enough power. I lose only about half a knot of speed cruising into 15-20 mph winds vs. glassy water. At 1/3 throttle and no wind, I'm going 3.8-4.0 knots; at half throttle no wind I'm going ~4.5 knots. After that, in calm air, hull speed limitations start to kick in and I gain very little speed from more throttle. But the throttle is still there if there's headwinds and I want to maintain ~4 knots. There are no doubt situations I could get myself into where the motor would not be enough. I suspect that in most of those situations, no motor would be enough, because it's not just about the horsepower. My main wish is that there were high-thrust props available for these smaller motors. The standard props are not designed for heavy displacement hulls, so they are not as efficient as they could be (meaning we could get more push from the same moto, with a prop designed for the type of boat we have). Some of the larger (6+ hp) outboards sold as sail auxiliaries can be had with props designed for heavy displacement hulls, but I've been unable to find anything like that for smaller outboards. They work fine anyhow! Just wishing... cheers, John On 10/13/20 12:40 PM, Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi: I have a 4 hp 4 stroke Mercury that has worked well for motoring in the San Juans in currents, etc. I’m not crazy about it on my local reservoir and often leave it in the garage and use an electric motor, since it is much lighter, allows me better performance sailing. The gas motor weighs between 60 and 70 pounds. I sail all winter with the electric motor on the reservoir. I Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors "The greatest threat to our planet is the belief that someone else will save it," - — Robert Swan, Arctic explorer and climate activist
On Oct 13, 2020, at 3:55 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
There's been several prior long threads on motors in the last couple years, you might look those up in the archives. They cover about all the ground there is to cover.
There are a few more propane options in the last year or two. They all weigh within a pound or two of equivalent gas HP.
My succinct summary:
For any reasonably recent production outboard - if you want a reverse gear, you have to get a 4hp or up. No reverse on smaller ones.
That will be a ~58-60 lb. motor, if Tohatsu/Mercury or Honda. Suzuki claims a handful of lbs. lighter (54-55 for the 4 or 6). For quite a while now, in 4-6 hp range, all manufacturers use same carcass (they just strangle the carb to reduce HP rating). That means same weight for 4, 5, or 6 hp.
I am a gear-head and research things thoroughly (especially when they cost as much as a new outboard). After lots of study and inquiry, I ended up getting a Honda 2.3hp long shaft and I'm quite happy with it. It is simple and reliable and light (30 lbs). Sips fuel for the most part.
There's also the Suzuki 2.5hp - might be a bit quieter (water cooled vs. air cooled - and, needs cooling system maintenance). It's cheaper than the Honda by ~$150. F-N gearbox instead of centrifugal clutch. Don't know how it compares for quality/reliability. Same weight.
Add 10-12 lbs, and you can get a 3.5 Tohatsu/Mercury. Still no reverse gear though.
Those are your options, basically, unless you find some unusual make or something used from another era that suits better.
I have tested my Honda 2.3hp on my M17 in glassy water to high winds with resultant chop (20-25 and gusty). It has enough power. I lose only about half a knot of speed cruising into 15-20 mph winds vs. glassy water. At 1/3 throttle and no wind, I'm going 3.8-4.0 knots; at half throttle no wind I'm going ~4.5 knots.
After that, in calm air, hull speed limitations start to kick in and I gain very little speed from more throttle. But the throttle is still there if there's headwinds and I want to maintain ~4 knots.
There are no doubt situations I could get myself into where the motor would not be enough. I suspect that in most of those situations, no motor would be enough, because it's not just about the horsepower.
My main wish is that there were high-thrust props available for these smaller motors. The standard props are not designed for heavy displacement hulls, so they are not as efficient as they could be (meaning we could get more push from the same moto, with a prop designed for the type of boat we have). Some of the larger (6+ hp) outboards sold as sail auxiliaries can be had with props designed for heavy displacement hulls, but I've been unable to find anything like that for smaller outboards. They work fine anyhow! Just wishing...
cheers, John
On 10/13/20 12:40 PM, Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Ive also searched for a high thrust prop for my 35 yr old Honda 2 hp but never seen one. In these days of 3D printers/milling, strong plastics and computer designs, it would seem there might be an opportunity for someone to work up some designs that could then be made on order. On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:56 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
There's been several prior long threads on motors in the last couple years, you might look those up in the archives. They cover about all the ground there is to cover.
There are a few more propane options in the last year or two. They all weigh within a pound or two of equivalent gas HP.
My succinct summary:
For any reasonably recent production outboard - if you want a reverse gear, you have to get a 4hp or up. No reverse on smaller ones.
That will be a ~58-60 lb. motor, if Tohatsu/Mercury or Honda. Suzuki claims a handful of lbs. lighter (54-55 for the 4 or 6). For quite a while now, in 4-6 hp range, all manufacturers use same carcass (they just strangle the carb to reduce HP rating). That means same weight for 4, 5, or 6 hp.
I am a gear-head and research things thoroughly (especially when they cost as much as a new outboard). After lots of study and inquiry, I ended up getting a Honda 2.3hp long shaft and I'm quite happy with it. It is simple and reliable and light (30 lbs). Sips fuel for the most part.
There's also the Suzuki 2.5hp - might be a bit quieter (water cooled vs. air cooled - and, needs cooling system maintenance). It's cheaper than the Honda by ~$150. F-N gearbox instead of centrifugal clutch. Don't know how it compares for quality/reliability. Same weight.
Add 10-12 lbs, and you can get a 3.5 Tohatsu/Mercury. Still no reverse gear though.
Those are your options, basically, unless you find some unusual make or something used from another era that suits better.
I have tested my Honda 2.3hp on my M17 in glassy water to high winds with resultant chop (20-25 and gusty). It has enough power. I lose only about half a knot of speed cruising into 15-20 mph winds vs. glassy water. At 1/3 throttle and no wind, I'm going 3.8-4.0 knots; at half throttle no wind I'm going ~4.5 knots.
After that, in calm air, hull speed limitations start to kick in and I gain very little speed from more throttle. But the throttle is still there if there's headwinds and I want to maintain ~4 knots.
There are no doubt situations I could get myself into where the motor would not be enough. I suspect that in most of those situations, no motor would be enough, because it's not just about the horsepower.
My main wish is that there were high-thrust props available for these smaller motors. The standard props are not designed for heavy displacement hulls, so they are not as efficient as they could be (meaning we could get more push from the same moto, with a prop designed for the type of boat we have). Some of the larger (6+ hp) outboards sold as sail auxiliaries can be had with props designed for heavy displacement hulls, but I've been unable to find anything like that for smaller outboards. They work fine anyhow! Just wishing...
cheers, John
On 10/13/20 12:40 PM, Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Alex: Somewhere a few years ago I read about a person changing out the prop on the small Honda - wasn't a Mboat. I can't remember any specifics. The general consensus was the problem is the motor will likely be overstressed under the load - especially a concern with the powerhead being or cooled. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 8:03 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Ive also searched for a high thrust prop for my 35 yr old Honda 2 hp but never seen one. In these days of 3D printers/milling, strong plastics and computer designs, it would seem there might be an opportunity for someone to work up some designs that could then be made on order.
Thanks for the caution re overpropping. I guess the real solution would be to change the gear ratio to turn a larger prop slower at a given throttle setting. Then you could use more of the engines range and gain both torque at higher speeds and a slower low speed- both on my wishlist. But not a mod I can see making- it’d be a whole new lower end... It seems most of the little outboards we use on our displacement sailboats are geared to get a little inflatable zipping around; have there been attempts to make an outboard geared for small sailboats, or is it just too niche a market? I’ll plan to live with my imperfect 35 yr old motor long enough to hopefully hit the point where the range/cost ratio of the electrics makes them a good replacement.... On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 8:10 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex:
Somewhere a few years ago I read about a person changing out the prop on the small Honda - wasn't a Mboat. I can't remember any specifics.
The general consensus was the problem is the motor will likely be overstressed under the load - especially a concern with the powerhead being or cooled.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 8:03 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Ive also searched for a high thrust prop for my 35 yr old Honda 2 hp but never seen one. In these days of 3D printers/milling, strong plastics and computer designs, it would seem there might be an opportunity for someone to work up some designs that could then be made on order.
What about those electric trolling motors? Hard to figure out thrust/power/torque comparisons. What little I know, comparing them to expensive Torquedo is that they use bulky 12 volt batteries vs lithium. Any thoughts? Rimas Aukstuolis On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 11:14 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for the caution re overpropping. I guess the real solution would be to change the gear ratio to turn a larger prop slower at a given throttle setting. Then you could use more of the engines range and gain both torque at higher speeds and a slower low speed- both on my wishlist. But not a mod I can see making- it’d be a whole new lower end... It seems most of the little outboards we use on our displacement sailboats are geared to get a little inflatable zipping around; have there been attempts to make an outboard geared for small sailboats, or is it just too niche a market? I’ll plan to live with my imperfect 35 yr old motor long enough to hopefully hit the point where the range/cost ratio of the electrics makes them a good replacement....
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 8:10 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex:
Somewhere a few years ago I read about a person changing out the prop on the small Honda - wasn't a Mboat. I can't remember any specifics.
The general consensus was the problem is the motor will likely be overstressed under the load - especially a concern with the powerhead being or cooled.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 8:03 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Ive also searched for a high thrust prop for my 35 yr old Honda 2 hp but never seen one. In these days of 3D printers/milling, strong plastics and computer designs, it would seem there might be an opportunity for someone to work up some designs that could then be made on order.
I've been playing with using a 12V trolling motor on my M15 along with a cheap "Golf Cart Voltage Converter" to use a 48v electric bike battery pack with the trolling motor. It seems to work very well so far, but doesn't have quite the thrust of a gas outboard... good enough for exiting the marina, but not for motoring into a chop. The weight and runtime is comparable to a Torqueedo but at a tiny fraction of the cost. I've never ran it empty, but I suspect I can motor for 5-6 hours on the battery at about 3 knots. Here's what I have: -DPLANET 30A 360W 12v Golf Cart 48V 36V to 12V Converter ($35 on Amazon) -Watersnake T24 ASP Saltwater trolling motor - designed for Kayaks ($150 on Amazon) -2017 Rad City Battery Pack 48V, 11.6 Ah (557 Wh) (from my eBike, but $399 new) Total weight of this setup is 14.1 lbs with 7.4lbs for the battery, and 6.7lbs for the motor (converter is small and negligible). This is comparable to the lightest gas outboard I think has ever been sold- the 1.5hp Cruise'N'Carry at 12lbs. I used to have a Cruise'N'Carry, and found it to be cheaply made and extremely loud, so not really viable. A big 24v 80lb thrust trolling motor would probably push the M15 at near hull speed and into a chop, but would be much much heavier than a comparable gas outboard, and requires dual large heavy batteries. Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rimantas Aukstuolis" <raukstuolis1@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:18:41 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: changing Honda 2/2.3 prop What about those electric trolling motors? Hard to figure out thrust/power/torque comparisons. What little I know, comparing them to expensive Torquedo is that they use bulky 12 volt batteries vs lithium. Any thoughts? Rimas Aukstuolis On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 11:14 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for the caution re overpropping. I guess the real solution would be to change the gear ratio to turn a larger prop slower at a given throttle setting. Then you could use more of the engines range and gain both torque at higher speeds and a slower low speed- both on my wishlist. But not a mod I can see making- it’d be a whole new lower end... It seems most of the little outboards we use on our displacement sailboats are geared to get a little inflatable zipping around; have there been attempts to make an outboard geared for small sailboats, or is it just too niche a market? I’ll plan to live with my imperfect 35 yr old motor long enough to hopefully hit the point where the range/cost ratio of the electrics makes them a good replacement....
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 8:10 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex:
Somewhere a few years ago I read about a person changing out the prop on the small Honda - wasn't a Mboat. I can't remember any specifics.
The general consensus was the problem is the motor will likely be overstressed under the load - especially a concern with the powerhead being or cooled.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 8:03 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Ive also searched for a high thrust prop for my 35 yr old Honda 2 hp but never seen one. In these days of 3D printers/milling, strong plastics and computer designs, it would seem there might be an opportunity for someone to work up some designs that could then be made on order.
The specs for that trolling motor say minimum draw 9 amps, max draw 20 amps. So with your little 11 amp-hour battery, you'll get maybe an hour at minimum draw, and half an hour or less at max draw. Some basic electrical math: 11 AH divided by 9 A = 1.2 H. Please don't head out on a 5 hour tour (or even a "3 hour tour" :-) without other means to get back if the wind dies...at medium draw (15A) you'll get about 40 minutes of runtime at best. You can get a 50AH or 60AH or more lithium battery, and it will be much lighter than same capacity lead-acid, but it will also lighten your wallet by a whole lot more. cheers, John On 10/15/20 9:09 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I've been playing with using a 12V trolling motor on my M15 along with a cheap "Golf Cart Voltage Converter" to use a 48v electric bike battery pack with the trolling motor. It seems to work very well so far, but doesn't have quite the thrust of a gas outboard... good enough for exiting the marina, but not for motoring into a chop. The weight and runtime is comparable to a Torqueedo but at a tiny fraction of the cost. I've never ran it empty, but I suspect I can motor for 5-6 hours on the battery at about 3 knots.
Here's what I have: -DPLANET 30A 360W 12v Golf Cart 48V 36V to 12V Converter ($35 on Amazon) -Watersnake T24 ASP Saltwater trolling motor - designed for Kayaks ($150 on Amazon) -2017 Rad City Battery Pack 48V, 11.6 Ah (557 Wh) (from my eBike, but $399 new)
Total weight of this setup is 14.1 lbs with 7.4lbs for the battery, and 6.7lbs for the motor (converter is small and negligible). This is comparable to the lightest gas outboard I think has ever been sold- the 1.5hp Cruise'N'Carry at 12lbs. I used to have a Cruise'N'Carry, and found it to be cheaply made and extremely loud, so not really viable.
A big 24v 80lb thrust trolling motor would probably push the M15 at near hull speed and into a chop, but would be much much heavier than a comparable gas outboard, and requires dual large heavy batteries.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rimantas Aukstuolis" <raukstuolis1@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:18:41 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: changing Honda 2/2.3 prop
What about those electric trolling motors? Hard to figure out thrust/power/torque comparisons. What little I know, comparing them to expensive Torquedo is that they use bulky 12 volt batteries vs lithium. Any thoughts? Rimas Aukstuolis
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 11:14 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for the caution re overpropping. I guess the real solution would be to change the gear ratio to turn a larger prop slower at a given throttle setting. Then you could use more of the engines range and gain both torque at higher speeds and a slower low speed- both on my wishlist. But not a mod I can see making- it’d be a whole new lower end... It seems most of the little outboards we use on our displacement sailboats are geared to get a little inflatable zipping around; have there been attempts to make an outboard geared for small sailboats, or is it just too niche a market? I’ll plan to live with my imperfect 35 yr old motor long enough to hopefully hit the point where the range/cost ratio of the electrics makes them a good replacement....
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 8:10 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex:
Somewhere a few years ago I read about a person changing out the prop on the small Honda - wasn't a Mboat. I can't remember any specifics.
The general consensus was the problem is the motor will likely be overstressed under the load - especially a concern with the powerhead being or cooled.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 8:03 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Ive also searched for a high thrust prop for my 35 yr old Honda 2 hp but never seen one. In these days of 3D printers/milling, strong plastics and computer designs, it would seem there might be an opportunity for someone to work up some designs that could then be made on order.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi John, The motor draws 9-20 amps only max startup (stall/0 knots) at 12v on the low and high speeds respectively. This 11 aH battery is a powerful 48v battery for electric bicycles, so you have to multiply the amperage by 4x to compare with a 12v lead acid. The stepdown converter gives 1/4 the voltage and 4x the aH as output. I estimate on high speed once cruising it draws about 13amps at 12v, so that would be approx (11.6*4)/13=3.57 hours of runtime. Let's say it draws only 6 amps at cruise on low speed, that would be approx (11.6*4)/6=7.73 hours of runtime. Indeed, I did motor with it on low speed for over an hour, and the battery was still reading 100% on the built in meter it has (which only reads in 20% intervals), so it was definitely over 80% at the end. Sincerely, Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 9:29:42 AM Subject: M_Boats: Electric motor range (was Re: changing Honda 2/2.3 prop) The specs for that trolling motor say minimum draw 9 amps, max draw 20 amps. So with your little 11 amp-hour battery, you'll get maybe an hour at minimum draw, and half an hour or less at max draw. Some basic electrical math: 11 AH divided by 9 A = 1.2 H. Please don't head out on a 5 hour tour (or even a "3 hour tour" :-) without other means to get back if the wind dies...at medium draw (15A) you'll get about 40 minutes of runtime at best. You can get a 50AH or 60AH or more lithium battery, and it will be much lighter than same capacity lead-acid, but it will also lighten your wallet by a whole lot more. cheers, John On 10/15/20 9:09 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I've been playing with using a 12V trolling motor on my M15 along with a cheap "Golf Cart Voltage Converter" to use a 48v electric bike battery pack with the trolling motor. It seems to work very well so far, but doesn't have quite the thrust of a gas outboard... good enough for exiting the marina, but not for motoring into a chop. The weight and runtime is comparable to a Torqueedo but at a tiny fraction of the cost. I've never ran it empty, but I suspect I can motor for 5-6 hours on the battery at about 3 knots.
Here's what I have: -DPLANET 30A 360W 12v Golf Cart 48V 36V to 12V Converter ($35 on Amazon) -Watersnake T24 ASP Saltwater trolling motor - designed for Kayaks ($150 on Amazon) -2017 Rad City Battery Pack 48V, 11.6 Ah (557 Wh) (from my eBike, but $399 new)
Total weight of this setup is 14.1 lbs with 7.4lbs for the battery, and 6.7lbs for the motor (converter is small and negligible). This is comparable to the lightest gas outboard I think has ever been sold- the 1.5hp Cruise'N'Carry at 12lbs. I used to have a Cruise'N'Carry, and found it to be cheaply made and extremely loud, so not really viable.
A big 24v 80lb thrust trolling motor would probably push the M15 at near hull speed and into a chop, but would be much much heavier than a comparable gas outboard, and requires dual large heavy batteries.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rimantas Aukstuolis" <raukstuolis1@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:18:41 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: changing Honda 2/2.3 prop
What about those electric trolling motors? Hard to figure out thrust/power/torque comparisons. What little I know, comparing them to expensive Torquedo is that they use bulky 12 volt batteries vs lithium. Any thoughts? Rimas Aukstuolis
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 11:14 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for the caution re overpropping. I guess the real solution would be to change the gear ratio to turn a larger prop slower at a given throttle setting. Then you could use more of the engines range and gain both torque at higher speeds and a slower low speed- both on my wishlist. But not a mod I can see making- it’d be a whole new lower end... It seems most of the little outboards we use on our displacement sailboats are geared to get a little inflatable zipping around; have there been attempts to make an outboard geared for small sailboats, or is it just too niche a market? I’ll plan to live with my imperfect 35 yr old motor long enough to hopefully hit the point where the range/cost ratio of the electrics makes them a good replacement....
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 8:10 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex:
Somewhere a few years ago I read about a person changing out the prop on the small Honda - wasn't a Mboat. I can't remember any specifics.
The general consensus was the problem is the motor will likely be overstressed under the load - especially a concern with the powerhead being or cooled.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 8:03 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Ive also searched for a high thrust prop for my 35 yr old Honda 2 hp but never seen one. In these days of 3D printers/milling, strong plastics and computer designs, it would seem there might be an opportunity for someone to work up some designs that could then be made on order.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Ah, missed the battery voltage, thought it was 12v. Do it all in watts then... 48v x 11AH = 528WH Say moderate speed draws 12A, then 12A x 12.6V = 144W 528WH/144W = ~3.6H, at 12A draw, as you say. There is also some loss of efficiency in all battery powered systems, typically at least 10% and usually more like 20%, so take 20% off the theoretical math to get a safer real world estimate. Part of the efficiency loss with battery storage is in the recharging, which isn't an issue in this situation, so 10% loss might be realistic here. Not bad then for what you put into it! cheers, John On 10/15/20 10:38 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
Hi John,
The motor draws 9-20 amps only max startup (stall/0 knots) at 12v on the low and high speeds respectively. This 11 aH battery is a powerful 48v battery for electric bicycles, so you have to multiply the amperage by 4x to compare with a 12v lead acid. The stepdown converter gives 1/4 the voltage and 4x the aH as output.
I estimate on high speed once cruising it draws about 13amps at 12v, so that would be approx (11.6*4)/13=3.57 hours of runtime. Let's say it draws only 6 amps at cruise on low speed, that would be approx (11.6*4)/6=7.73 hours of runtime.
Indeed, I did motor with it on low speed for over an hour, and the battery was still reading 100% on the built in meter it has (which only reads in 20% intervals), so it was definitely over 80% at the end.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 9:29:42 AM Subject: M_Boats: Electric motor range (was Re: changing Honda 2/2.3 prop)
The specs for that trolling motor say minimum draw 9 amps, max draw 20 amps.
So with your little 11 amp-hour battery, you'll get maybe an hour at minimum draw, and half an hour or less at max draw. Some basic electrical math:
11 AH divided by 9 A = 1.2 H.
Please don't head out on a 5 hour tour (or even a "3 hour tour" :-) without other means to get back if the wind dies...at medium draw (15A) you'll get about 40 minutes of runtime at best.
You can get a 50AH or 60AH or more lithium battery, and it will be much lighter than same capacity lead-acid, but it will also lighten your wallet by a whole lot more.
cheers, John
On 10/15/20 9:09 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I've been playing with using a 12V trolling motor on my M15 along with a cheap "Golf Cart Voltage Converter" to use a 48v electric bike battery pack with the trolling motor. It seems to work very well so far, but doesn't have quite the thrust of a gas outboard... good enough for exiting the marina, but not for motoring into a chop. The weight and runtime is comparable to a Torqueedo but at a tiny fraction of the cost. I've never ran it empty, but I suspect I can motor for 5-6 hours on the battery at about 3 knots.
Here's what I have: -DPLANET 30A 360W 12v Golf Cart 48V 36V to 12V Converter ($35 on Amazon) -Watersnake T24 ASP Saltwater trolling motor - designed for Kayaks ($150 on Amazon) -2017 Rad City Battery Pack 48V, 11.6 Ah (557 Wh) (from my eBike, but $399 new)
Total weight of this setup is 14.1 lbs with 7.4lbs for the battery, and 6.7lbs for the motor (converter is small and negligible). This is comparable to the lightest gas outboard I think has ever been sold- the 1.5hp Cruise'N'Carry at 12lbs. I used to have a Cruise'N'Carry, and found it to be cheaply made and extremely loud, so not really viable.
A big 24v 80lb thrust trolling motor would probably push the M15 at near hull speed and into a chop, but would be much much heavier than a comparable gas outboard, and requires dual large heavy batteries.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rimantas Aukstuolis" <raukstuolis1@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:18:41 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: changing Honda 2/2.3 prop
What about those electric trolling motors? Hard to figure out thrust/power/torque comparisons. What little I know, comparing them to expensive Torquedo is that they use bulky 12 volt batteries vs lithium. Any thoughts? Rimas Aukstuolis
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 11:14 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for the caution re overpropping. I guess the real solution would be to change the gear ratio to turn a larger prop slower at a given throttle setting. Then you could use more of the engines range and gain both torque at higher speeds and a slower low speed- both on my wishlist. But not a mod I can see making- it’d be a whole new lower end... It seems most of the little outboards we use on our displacement sailboats are geared to get a little inflatable zipping around; have there been attempts to make an outboard geared for small sailboats, or is it just too niche a market? I’ll plan to live with my imperfect 35 yr old motor long enough to hopefully hit the point where the range/cost ratio of the electrics makes them a good replacement....
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 8:10 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex:
Somewhere a few years ago I read about a person changing out the prop on the small Honda - wasn't a Mboat. I can't remember any specifics.
The general consensus was the problem is the motor will likely be overstressed under the load - especially a concern with the powerhead being or cooled.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 8:03 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Ive also searched for a high thrust prop for my 35 yr old Honda 2 hp but never seen one. In these days of 3D printers/milling, strong plastics and computer designs, it would seem there might be an opportunity for someone to work up some designs that could then be made on order.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks all- love learning from the chat here. My brief experiments with a 36lb thrust trolling motor (a little bigger thanTyler's 24 lb thrust Watersnake) on My M15 made me conclude that while it was great for an hour or two of fishing on a still lake while waiting for the wind, when the wind came up to even 10 knots, it failed to have the power to maintain decent way and steerage (in comparison, in its toughest test, my little 2 horse honda let me tow a stranded ski boat with 5 people in it off a rough lee shore in a 20-25 knot breeze with only a little whining in the worst of the waves). A standard trolling motor setup up to the task is a heavy proposition (though in a boat designed for it, it can be impressive- look up Thomas Hruby and his St Pierre Dory Daddy's Third) - and part of what I love about my M15 is how light and responsive she is. Tyler's 48v battery idea- with multiple batteries and a more powerful trolling motor might work, but weight and price will climb quickly (see if I can find the time to and brainspace to calc out what that might look like). The Torquedos and like are really coming along- I think they'd handle all the boat needs except for the range limitation, but until the range comes along, the cost is a barrier. So right now I concur w Dave that the current electrics are largely limited to protected daysailing and not a good match for Keith's gulf island crossing and most other open water work- however, I suspect ultimately we'll see the cost of a Torquedo style motor drop a bit and come with an option for portable generator/fuel cell to act as a range extender for times when range is essential (as so many daysail most of the time, and have only a few extended outings in a year). So for now I'll keep that 1985 2 horse going, and see what's on the market in a few years... On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 12:28 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Ah, missed the battery voltage, thought it was 12v. Do it all in watts then...
48v x 11AH = 528WH
Say moderate speed draws 12A, then 12A x 12.6V = 144W
528WH/144W = ~3.6H, at 12A draw, as you say.
There is also some loss of efficiency in all battery powered systems, typically at least 10% and usually more like 20%, so take 20% off the theoretical math to get a safer real world estimate.
Part of the efficiency loss with battery storage is in the recharging, which isn't an issue in this situation, so 10% loss might be realistic here.
Not bad then for what you put into it!
cheers, John
On 10/15/20 10:38 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
Hi John,
The motor draws 9-20 amps only max startup (stall/0 knots) at 12v on the low and high speeds respectively. This 11 aH battery is a powerful 48v battery for electric bicycles, so you have to multiply the amperage by 4x to compare with a 12v lead acid. The stepdown converter gives 1/4 the voltage and 4x the aH as output.
I estimate on high speed once cruising it draws about 13amps at 12v, so that would be approx (11.6*4)/13=3.57 hours of runtime. Let's say it draws only 6 amps at cruise on low speed, that would be approx (11.6*4)/6=7.73 hours of runtime.
Indeed, I did motor with it on low speed for over an hour, and the battery was still reading 100% on the built in meter it has (which only reads in 20% intervals), so it was definitely over 80% at the end.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 9:29:42 AM Subject: M_Boats: Electric motor range (was Re: changing Honda 2/2.3 prop)
The specs for that trolling motor say minimum draw 9 amps, max draw 20 amps.
So with your little 11 amp-hour battery, you'll get maybe an hour at minimum draw, and half an hour or less at max draw. Some basic electrical math:
11 AH divided by 9 A = 1.2 H.
Please don't head out on a 5 hour tour (or even a "3 hour tour" :-) without other means to get back if the wind dies...at medium draw (15A) you'll get about 40 minutes of runtime at best.
You can get a 50AH or 60AH or more lithium battery, and it will be much lighter than same capacity lead-acid, but it will also lighten your wallet by a whole lot more.
cheers, John
On 10/15/20 9:09 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I've been playing with using a 12V trolling motor on my M15 along with a cheap "Golf Cart Voltage Converter" to use a 48v electric bike battery pack with the trolling motor. It seems to work very well so far, but doesn't have quite the thrust of a gas outboard... good enough for exiting the marina, but not for motoring into a chop. The weight and runtime is comparable to a Torqueedo but at a tiny fraction of the cost. I've never ran it empty, but I suspect I can motor for 5-6 hours on the battery at about 3 knots.
Here's what I have: -DPLANET 30A 360W 12v Golf Cart 48V 36V to 12V Converter ($35 on Amazon) -Watersnake T24 ASP Saltwater trolling motor - designed for Kayaks ($150 on Amazon) -2017 Rad City Battery Pack 48V, 11.6 Ah (557 Wh) (from my eBike, but $399 new)
Total weight of this setup is 14.1 lbs with 7.4lbs for the battery, and 6.7lbs for the motor (converter is small and negligible). This is comparable to the lightest gas outboard I think has ever been sold- the 1.5hp Cruise'N'Carry at 12lbs. I used to have a Cruise'N'Carry, and found it to be cheaply made and extremely loud, so not really viable.
A big 24v 80lb thrust trolling motor would probably push the M15 at near hull speed and into a chop, but would be much much heavier than a comparable gas outboard, and requires dual large heavy batteries.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rimantas Aukstuolis" <raukstuolis1@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:18:41 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: changing Honda 2/2.3 prop
What about those electric trolling motors? Hard to figure out thrust/power/torque comparisons. What little I know, comparing them to expensive Torquedo is that they use bulky 12 volt batteries vs lithium. Any thoughts? Rimas Aukstuolis
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 11:14 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for the caution re overpropping. I guess the real solution would be to change the gear ratio to turn a larger prop slower at a given throttle setting. Then you could use more of the engines range and gain both torque at higher speeds and a slower low speed- both on my wishlist. But not a mod I can see making- it’d be a whole new lower end... It seems most of the little outboards we use on our displacement sailboats are geared to get a little inflatable zipping around; have there been attempts to make an outboard geared for small sailboats, or is it just too niche a market? I’ll plan to live with my imperfect 35 yr old motor long enough to hopefully hit the point where the range/cost ratio of the electrics makes them a good replacement....
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 8:10 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex:
Somewhere a few years ago I read about a person changing out the prop on the small Honda - wasn't a Mboat. I can't remember any specifics.
The general consensus was the problem is the motor will likely be overstressed under the load - especially a concern with the powerhead being or cooled.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 8:03 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Ive also searched for a high thrust prop for my 35 yr old Honda 2 hp but never seen one. In these days of 3D printers/milling, strong plastics and computer designs, it would seem there might be an opportunity for someone to work up some designs that could then be made on order.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
IMO electric remains usable for entry and exit of harbor. Even with smaller batteries with greater storage capacity (maybe one day having enough capacity for a day of motoring - full day of no wind is common on the Salish Sea, in addition to the current against you half the time +) the issue for a cruiser remains recharge - unless you stop at a marina that has 120v and you stay long enough to fully charge you are stuck. Solar on a 15' and 17' boat will be limited by deck space so full recharge is counted in days. More ocean crossing sailors are converting to solar when their inboard diesel dies. These folks don't like to motor. These electric ocean crossers have solar but have simple low power draw electric systems as they cant run a generator/motor for four hours a day. So they use the electric motor getting out of harbor and have the crossing to recharge - multiple days or weeks of time. There are also a small number of day sailors that convert to solar - but they don't cruise, just go out of harbor, sail, come back in. There are a few high-end 20-30' daysailors (that big and they call them daysailors!) that are being manufactured with electric. I also believe that ComPac has made a couple of custom order sub-20' electric onboard catboats. I sold some Sage 17s with Torqeedos - in all cases boat was for daysailing and on a lake. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 9:30 AM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
The specs for that trolling motor say minimum draw 9 amps, max draw 20 amps.
So with your little 11 amp-hour battery, you'll get maybe an hour at minimum draw, and half an hour or less at max draw. Some basic electrical math:
11 AH divided by 9 A = 1.2 H.
Please don't head out on a 5 hour tour (or even a "3 hour tour" :-) without other means to get back if the wind dies...at medium draw (15A) you'll get about 40 minutes of runtime at best.
You can get a 50AH or 60AH or more lithium battery, and it will be much lighter than same capacity lead-acid, but it will also lighten your wallet by a whole lot more.
cheers, John
On 10/15/20 9:09 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I've been playing with using a 12V trolling motor on my M15 along with a cheap "Golf Cart Voltage Converter" to use a 48v electric bike battery pack with the trolling motor. It seems to work very well so far, but doesn't have quite the thrust of a gas outboard... good enough for exiting the marina, but not for motoring into a chop. The weight and runtime is comparable to a Torqueedo but at a tiny fraction of the cost. I've never ran it empty, but I suspect I can motor for 5-6 hours on the battery at about 3 knots.
Here's what I have: -DPLANET 30A 360W 12v Golf Cart 48V 36V to 12V Converter ($35 on Amazon) -Watersnake T24 ASP Saltwater trolling motor - designed for Kayaks ($150 on Amazon) -2017 Rad City Battery Pack 48V, 11.6 Ah (557 Wh) (from my eBike, but $399 new)
Total weight of this setup is 14.1 lbs with 7.4lbs for the battery, and 6.7lbs for the motor (converter is small and negligible). This is comparable to the lightest gas outboard I think has ever been sold- the 1.5hp Cruise'N'Carry at 12lbs. I used to have a Cruise'N'Carry, and found it to be cheaply made and extremely loud, so not really viable.
A big 24v 80lb thrust trolling motor would probably push the M15 at near hull speed and into a chop, but would be much much heavier than a comparable gas outboard, and requires dual large heavy batteries.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rimantas Aukstuolis" <raukstuolis1@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:18:41 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: changing Honda 2/2.3 prop
What about those electric trolling motors? Hard to figure out thrust/power/torque comparisons. What little I know, comparing them to expensive Torquedo is that they use bulky 12 volt batteries vs lithium. Any thoughts? Rimas Aukstuolis
On 10/15/20 10:40 AM, Dave Scobie wrote: ...
More ocean crossing sailors are converting to solar when their inboard diesel dies. These folks don't like to motor. These electric ocean crossers have solar but have simple low power draw electric systems as they cant run a generator/motor for four hours a day. So they use the electric motor getting out of harbor and have the crossing to recharge - multiple days or weeks of time.
There's also a regenerative charging option. They recharge while sailing, the motor becomes a generator turned by the prop. Slows down your sailing a little bit, but if the trades are going solid it's not that big a loss and as soon as batteries are full they turn off regen. Can be on or off, like in some hybrid and electric cars where regen is adjustable. I knew a guy in Hawai'i who replaced his diesel with an electric motor system with regen system, on a ~35 ft. bluewater boat...this was 10+ years ago, it's not brand new technology. Not that useful for day sailing though... cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi Dave, I met a guy with a Newport 30 that he had converted to a fairly expensive electric drive system, and he claimed it did work for him for long cruises in the SF Bay area... he used a regen feature to charge the battery off the propeller while sailing. I don't think I would want something that slows the boat down like that, but he claimed that he would always end the day with a full battery on a multi-day cruise, and would never plug it in to recharge at the dock. Compared to the Salish Sea, I think the Bay Area is quite different because you can reliably count on strong afternoon winds virtually everyday, so at worst you are motoring in the mornings and sailing in the evenings. Sincerely, Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "scoobscobie" <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: "john" <john@eco-living.net>, "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 10:40:56 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Electric motor range (was Re: changing Honda 2/2.3 prop) IMO electric remains usable for entry and exit of harbor. Even with smaller batteries with greater storage capacity (maybe one day having enough capacity for a day of motoring - full day of no wind is common on the Salish Sea, in addition to the current against you half the time +) the issue for a cruiser remains recharge - unless you stop at a marina that has 120v and you stay long enough to fully charge you are stuck. Solar on a 15' and 17' boat will be limited by deck space so full recharge is counted in days. More ocean crossing sailors are converting to solar when their inboard diesel dies. These folks don't like to motor. These electric ocean crossers have solar but have simple low power draw electric systems as they cant run a generator/motor for four hours a day. So they use the electric motor getting out of harbor and have the crossing to recharge - multiple days or weeks of time. There are also a small number of day sailors that convert to solar - but they don't cruise, just go out of harbor, sail, come back in. There are a few high-end 20-30' daysailors (that big and they call them daysailors!) that are being manufactured with electric. I also believe that ComPac has made a couple of custom order sub-20' electric onboard catboats. I sold some Sage 17s with Torqeedos - in all cases boat was for daysailing and on a lake. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 9:30 AM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
The specs for that trolling motor say minimum draw 9 amps, max draw 20 amps.
So with your little 11 amp-hour battery, you'll get maybe an hour at minimum draw, and half an hour or less at max draw. Some basic electrical math:
11 AH divided by 9 A = 1.2 H.
Please don't head out on a 5 hour tour (or even a "3 hour tour" :-) without other means to get back if the wind dies...at medium draw (15A) you'll get about 40 minutes of runtime at best.
You can get a 50AH or 60AH or more lithium battery, and it will be much lighter than same capacity lead-acid, but it will also lighten your wallet by a whole lot more.
cheers, John
On 10/15/20 9:09 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I've been playing with using a 12V trolling motor on my M15 along with a cheap "Golf Cart Voltage Converter" to use a 48v electric bike battery pack with the trolling motor. It seems to work very well so far, but doesn't have quite the thrust of a gas outboard... good enough for exiting the marina, but not for motoring into a chop. The weight and runtime is comparable to a Torqueedo but at a tiny fraction of the cost. I've never ran it empty, but I suspect I can motor for 5-6 hours on the battery at about 3 knots.
Here's what I have: -DPLANET 30A 360W 12v Golf Cart 48V 36V to 12V Converter ($35 on Amazon) -Watersnake T24 ASP Saltwater trolling motor - designed for Kayaks ($150 on Amazon) -2017 Rad City Battery Pack 48V, 11.6 Ah (557 Wh) (from my eBike, but $399 new)
Total weight of this setup is 14.1 lbs with 7.4lbs for the battery, and 6.7lbs for the motor (converter is small and negligible). This is comparable to the lightest gas outboard I think has ever been sold- the 1.5hp Cruise'N'Carry at 12lbs. I used to have a Cruise'N'Carry, and found it to be cheaply made and extremely loud, so not really viable.
A big 24v 80lb thrust trolling motor would probably push the M15 at near hull speed and into a chop, but would be much much heavier than a comparable gas outboard, and requires dual large heavy batteries.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rimantas Aukstuolis" <raukstuolis1@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:18:41 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: changing Honda 2/2.3 prop
What about those electric trolling motors? Hard to figure out thrust/power/torque comparisons. What little I know, comparing them to expensive Torquedo is that they use bulky 12 volt batteries vs lithium. Any thoughts? Rimas Aukstuolis
There are certainly electric/battery driven options for certain types of sailing with a M17/M15/Sage boats, particularly for day sailing on lakes etc. That said if you have a significant span of water to be traversed that is shared with larger craft (cargo & ferries etc..) one can get into really dicey situations if the wind dies... On one crossing of the Strait of Georgia this summer, I had that very circumstance, 7 NM out in the Strait heading for the gulf islands, the wind died to virtually nothing, and I had another 14 NM to go all the while dodging cargo vessels and ferries.. I can't imagine doing that without a gas powered engine.... Keith *Keith R. Martin* *Vancouver/Burnaby B.C.* *Serenity M17, #353* *http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=105 <http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=105>* On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 10:41, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
IMO electric remains usable for entry and exit of harbor. Even with smaller batteries with greater storage capacity (maybe one day having enough capacity for a day of motoring - full day of no wind is common on the Salish Sea, in addition to the current against you half the time +) the issue for a cruiser remains recharge - unless you stop at a marina that has 120v and you stay long enough to fully charge you are stuck. Solar on a 15' and 17' boat will be limited by deck space so full recharge is counted in days.
More ocean crossing sailors are converting to solar when their inboard diesel dies. These folks don't like to motor. These electric ocean crossers have solar but have simple low power draw electric systems as they cant run a generator/motor for four hours a day. So they use the electric motor getting out of harbor and have the crossing to recharge - multiple days or weeks of time.
There are also a small number of day sailors that convert to solar - but they don't cruise, just go out of harbor, sail, come back in. There are a few high-end 20-30' daysailors (that big and they call them daysailors!) that are being manufactured with electric. I also believe that ComPac has made a couple of custom order sub-20' electric onboard catboats.
I sold some Sage 17s with Torqeedos - in all cases boat was for daysailing and on a lake.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 9:30 AM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
The specs for that trolling motor say minimum draw 9 amps, max draw 20 amps.
So with your little 11 amp-hour battery, you'll get maybe an hour at minimum draw, and half an hour or less at max draw. Some basic electrical math:
11 AH divided by 9 A = 1.2 H.
Please don't head out on a 5 hour tour (or even a "3 hour tour" :-) without other means to get back if the wind dies...at medium draw (15A) you'll get about 40 minutes of runtime at best.
You can get a 50AH or 60AH or more lithium battery, and it will be much lighter than same capacity lead-acid, but it will also lighten your wallet by a whole lot more.
cheers, John
On 10/15/20 9:09 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I've been playing with using a 12V trolling motor on my M15 along with a cheap "Golf Cart Voltage Converter" to use a 48v electric bike battery pack with the trolling motor. It seems to work very well so far, but doesn't have quite the thrust of a gas outboard... good enough for exiting the marina, but not for motoring into a chop. The weight and runtime is comparable to a Torqueedo but at a tiny fraction of the cost. I've never ran it empty, but I suspect I can motor for 5-6 hours on the battery at about 3 knots.
Here's what I have: -DPLANET 30A 360W 12v Golf Cart 48V 36V to 12V Converter ($35 on Amazon) -Watersnake T24 ASP Saltwater trolling motor - designed for Kayaks ($150 on Amazon) -2017 Rad City Battery Pack 48V, 11.6 Ah (557 Wh) (from my eBike, but $399 new)
Total weight of this setup is 14.1 lbs with 7.4lbs for the battery, and 6.7lbs for the motor (converter is small and negligible). This is comparable to the lightest gas outboard I think has ever been sold- the 1.5hp Cruise'N'Carry at 12lbs. I used to have a Cruise'N'Carry, and found it to be cheaply made and extremely loud, so not really viable.
A big 24v 80lb thrust trolling motor would probably push the M15 at near hull speed and into a chop, but would be much much heavier than a comparable gas outboard, and requires dual large heavy batteries.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rimantas Aukstuolis" <raukstuolis1@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:18:41 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: changing Honda 2/2.3 prop
What about those electric trolling motors? Hard to figure out thrust/power/torque comparisons. What little I know, comparing them to expensive Torquedo is that they use bulky 12 volt batteries vs lithium. Any thoughts? Rimas Aukstuolis
“The best no longer available motor for the M17 was the Yamaha 4HP long, 20", shaft. All motors in the 4-6HP range are now 6HP powerheads with different carbs.” Dave, is that Yamaha 4hp the same as my Mariner (made by Yamaha) 5hp two stroke with a different carb? Henry On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:03 AM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Ive also searched for a high thrust prop for my 35 yr old Honda 2 hp but never seen one. In these days of 3D printers/milling, strong plastics and computer designs, it would seem there might be an opportunity for someone to work up some designs that could then be made on order.
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:56 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
There's been several prior long threads on motors in the last couple years, you might look those up in the archives. They cover about all the ground there is to cover.
There are a few more propane options in the last year or two. They all weigh within a pound or two of equivalent gas HP.
My succinct summary:
For any reasonably recent production outboard - if you want a reverse gear, you have to get a 4hp or up. No reverse on smaller ones.
That will be a ~58-60 lb. motor, if Tohatsu/Mercury or Honda. Suzuki claims a handful of lbs. lighter (54-55 for the 4 or 6). For quite a while now, in 4-6 hp range, all manufacturers use same carcass (they just strangle the carb to reduce HP rating). That means same weight for 4, 5, or 6 hp.
I am a gear-head and research things thoroughly (especially when they cost as much as a new outboard). After lots of study and inquiry, I ended up getting a Honda 2.3hp long shaft and I'm quite happy with it. It is simple and reliable and light (30 lbs). Sips fuel for the most part.
There's also the Suzuki 2.5hp - might be a bit quieter (water cooled vs. air cooled - and, needs cooling system maintenance). It's cheaper than the Honda by ~$150. F-N gearbox instead of centrifugal clutch. Don't know how it compares for quality/reliability. Same weight.
Add 10-12 lbs, and you can get a 3.5 Tohatsu/Mercury. Still no reverse gear though.
Those are your options, basically, unless you find some unusual make or something used from another era that suits better.
I have tested my Honda 2.3hp on my M17 in glassy water to high winds with resultant chop (20-25 and gusty). It has enough power. I lose only about half a knot of speed cruising into 15-20 mph winds vs. glassy water. At 1/3 throttle and no wind, I'm going 3.8-4.0 knots; at half throttle no wind I'm going ~4.5 knots.
After that, in calm air, hull speed limitations start to kick in and I gain very little speed from more throttle. But the throttle is still there if there's headwinds and I want to maintain ~4 knots.
There are no doubt situations I could get myself into where the motor would not be enough. I suspect that in most of those situations, no motor would be enough, because it's not just about the horsepower.
My main wish is that there were high-thrust props available for these smaller motors. The standard props are not designed for heavy displacement hulls, so they are not as efficient as they could be (meaning we could get more push from the same moto, with a prop designed for the type of boat we have). Some of the larger (6+ hp) outboards sold as sail auxiliaries can be had with props designed for heavy displacement hulls, but I've been unable to find anything like that for smaller outboards. They work fine anyhow! Just wishing...
cheers, John
On 10/13/20 12:40 PM, Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- Sent from Gmail Mobile
The best no longer available motor for the M17 was the Yamaha 4HP long, 20", shaft. All motors in the 4-6HP range are now 6HP powerheads with different carbs. A Honda 2/2.3 HP will push the M17 just fine. You will not have as much reserve for fighting wind and to an extent waves (the 17 is a displacement hull and throwing horsepower at it will not make the boat go faster - such as going against current). For perspective my 25' on deck (29' on spar) wooden full keel 8500# sailboat/home has a Honda 8. I live on and cruise the Salish Sea. I've cruised with a couple that ran a Yamaha 2.5HP on their M17 - this was on one of Larry Yake's San Juan Islands trips. They did fine though the Yamaha 2.5 only available as a short 15" shaft so they had prop cavitation issues if the waves got up. I lived aboard my M17 for 10 weeks and only had a 30watt solar panel and group 24 battery. Never needed an alternator nor hooking up to shore power. Prior to having solar gone 5 days without needing to charge the battery (again group 24) - also done the non-solar nor alternator route on multiple Jerry designs: M15, M17, Sage 17 and SageCat. M17 SWEET PEA's motor is a Suzuki 4HP long 20" shaft. No alternator or external tank. Andrei how are you using the boat? Buy a motor that fits how you sail/cruise. Only day sailing? Only one night aboard? Long multiple week trips? Lakes? Coastal? Share some details and I share my POV. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 12:40 PM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments! Andrei
I forgot to add - the fixed height motor mount mount is problematic for a 4-cycle motor. The power heads are larger than on a 2-cycle. Means you can't tilt up the motor. A spacer is needed to get enough transom clearance. Or you can install a lifting mount - best is the Garhauer OB-125. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 3:36 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
The best no longer available motor for the M17 was the Yamaha 4HP long, 20", shaft. All motors in the 4-6HP range are now 6HP powerheads with different carbs.
A Honda 2/2.3 HP will push the M17 just fine. You will not have as much reserve for fighting wind and to an extent waves (the 17 is a displacement hull and throwing horsepower at it will not make the boat go faster - such as going against current).
For perspective my 25' on deck (29' on spar) wooden full keel 8500# sailboat/home has a Honda 8. I live on and cruise the Salish Sea.
I've cruised with a couple that ran a Yamaha 2.5HP on their M17 - this was on one of Larry Yake's San Juan Islands trips. They did fine though the Yamaha 2.5 only available as a short 15" shaft so they had prop cavitation issues if the waves got up.
I lived aboard my M17 for 10 weeks and only had a 30watt solar panel and group 24 battery. Never needed an alternator nor hooking up to shore power. Prior to having solar gone 5 days without needing to charge the battery (again group 24) - also done the non-solar nor alternator route on multiple Jerry designs: M15, M17, Sage 17 and SageCat.
M17 SWEET PEA's motor is a Suzuki 4HP long 20" shaft. No alternator or external tank.
Andrei how are you using the boat? Buy a motor that fits how you sail/cruise. Only day sailing? Only one night aboard? Long multiple week trips? Lakes? Coastal? Share some details and I share my POV.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 12:40 PM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments! Andrei
Thanks all for the replies, that is quite a help already! First off, hat tip to my namesake Andre ;) To answer Dave’s question, most of my sailing is day sailing, but I did several 4-5 day long trips on Lake Michigan and Lake Superior (island hopping near shore only, or a long crossing from the north shore to Isle Royale and back). In the future I expect to do more Lake Michigan sailing, near shore in the bays around Door County, Baileys Harbor area. (Btw, any fellow Monty owners in that area?) Getting electricity is the least important requirement for me. But one thing I really don’t want is to have to take the engine off and on every time I go sailing, that would be a deal killer for me. So light weight and reliability are the most important factors. The motor must also be able to push the boat, close to hull speed, even in 25-30kts of wind. This is a safety issue I don’t want to compromise on, in big water. I don’t want to install a new mount, if possible. Based on what I’ve heard so far I guess the best option is still to refurbish my 4hp, or else to try to look for another 1980’s two stroke motor. That’s a bit of a bummer, I was really hoping to go to a four stroke motor; it always makes my heart sink when I see a thin film of oil extending on the surface of pristine water from my motor when I start up. So the moral of the story is — no perfect motor, huh? Nothing in the 4-5hp range, 4 stroke, weighing less than 40lbs and with reverse? (I don’t mind turning the motor around, but it always kinks the fuel line and I keep worrying that the motor will run out of fuel at just the wrong time... This may not be a problem on the Honda 2hp which has the fuel tank built in, but it is an issue with my motor.) Thanks, Andrei. On Oct 13, 2020, at 18:16, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: I forgot to add - the fixed height motor mount mount is problematic for a 4-cycle motor. The power heads are larger than on a 2-cycle. Means you can't tilt up the motor. A spacer is needed to get enough transom clearance. Or you can install a lifting mount - best is the Garhauer OB-125. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 3:36 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
The best no longer available motor for the M17 was the Yamaha 4HP long, 20", shaft. All motors in the 4-6HP range are now 6HP powerheads with different carbs.
A Honda 2/2.3 HP will push the M17 just fine. You will not have as much reserve for fighting wind and to an extent waves (the 17 is a displacement hull and throwing horsepower at it will not make the boat go faster - such as going against current).
For perspective my 25' on deck (29' on spar) wooden full keel 8500# sailboat/home has a Honda 8. I live on and cruise the Salish Sea.
I've cruised with a couple that ran a Yamaha 2.5HP on their M17 - this was on one of Larry Yake's San Juan Islands trips. They did fine though the Yamaha 2.5 only available as a short 15" shaft so they had prop cavitation issues if the waves got up.
I lived aboard my M17 for 10 weeks and only had a 30watt solar panel and group 24 battery. Never needed an alternator nor hooking up to shore power. Prior to having solar gone 5 days without needing to charge the battery (again group 24) - also done the non-solar nor alternator route on multiple Jerry designs: M15, M17, Sage 17 and SageCat.
M17 SWEET PEA's motor is a Suzuki 4HP long 20" shaft. No alternator or external tank.
Andrei how are you using the boat? Buy a motor that fits how you sail/cruise. Only day sailing? Only one night aboard? Long multiple week trips? Lakes? Coastal? Share some details and I share my POV.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 12:40 PM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments! Andrei
The Tohatsu/Mercury 3.5 at ~41 lbs. could work for you, IF you can live with no reverse gear. Fuel tank is built-in, so no hose to kink when spinning it 180 degrees. The extra HP over the Honda 2.3 or Suzuki 2.5 should get you what you need in really strong headwinds, if you want close to hull speed in any navigable conditions. Fuel consumption per distance is going to go up steeply as you approach & hold hull speed...just have plenty of fuel if you want to maintain that pace! I would say more HP than that is wasted and just extra weight on an M17 (since you can't get up to 4hp+ without adding ~20 more lbs, for newer 4-cycle outboards). I'm a minimalist in some aspects, so I got the Honda 2.3. If I wasn't a minimalist, I would probably have got the Tohatsu 3.5. It's a better deal per HP, at only about $50 more street price (not to mention cheaper per pound ;-). My M17 came with a nearly new Tohatsu 6hp SailPro extra long shaft. Complete overkill...dunno what the previous owners were thinking. Maybe a fast talking outboard salesman? Just idling, if I put it in gear it was more thrust than felt safe for maneuvering in confined spaces like marina docks & passages etc., and the torque it put on the mount & transom was scary to watch. I sold it early on, to someone with a Venuture 25 or something "big" like that. Best wishes for your choice, whatever it be...! cheers, John On 10/13/20 4:46 PM, Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats wrote:
Thanks all for the replies, that is quite a help already! First off, hat tip to my namesake Andre ;)
To answer Dave’s question, most of my sailing is day sailing, but I did several 4-5 day long trips on Lake Michigan and Lake Superior (island hopping near shore only, or a long crossing from the north shore to Isle Royale and back). In the future I expect to do more Lake Michigan sailing, near shore in the bays around Door County, Baileys Harbor area. (Btw, any fellow Monty owners in that area?)
Getting electricity is the least important requirement for me. But one thing I really don’t want is to have to take the engine off and on every time I go sailing, that would be a deal killer for me. So light weight and reliability are the most important factors. The motor must also be able to push the boat, close to hull speed, even in 25-30kts of wind. This is a safety issue I don’t want to compromise on, in big water. I don’t want to install a new mount, if possible.
Based on what I’ve heard so far I guess the best option is still to refurbish my 4hp, or else to try to look for another 1980’s two stroke motor. That’s a bit of a bummer, I was really hoping to go to a four stroke motor; it always makes my heart sink when I see a thin film of oil extending on the surface of pristine water from my motor when I start up.
So the moral of the story is — no perfect motor, huh? Nothing in the 4-5hp range, 4 stroke, weighing less than 40lbs and with reverse? (I don’t mind turning the motor around, but it always kinks the fuel line and I keep worrying that the motor will run out of fuel at just the wrong time... This may not be a problem on the Honda 2hp which has the fuel tank built in, but it is an issue with my motor.)
Thanks, Andrei.
On Oct 13, 2020, at 18:16, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
I forgot to add - the fixed height motor mount mount is problematic for a 4-cycle motor. The power heads are larger than on a 2-cycle. Means you can't tilt up the motor. A spacer is needed to get enough transom clearance. Or you can install a lifting mount - best is the Garhauer OB-125.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 3:36 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
The best no longer available motor for the M17 was the Yamaha 4HP long, 20", shaft. All motors in the 4-6HP range are now 6HP powerheads with different carbs.
A Honda 2/2.3 HP will push the M17 just fine. You will not have as much reserve for fighting wind and to an extent waves (the 17 is a displacement hull and throwing horsepower at it will not make the boat go faster - such as going against current).
For perspective my 25' on deck (29' on spar) wooden full keel 8500# sailboat/home has a Honda 8. I live on and cruise the Salish Sea.
I've cruised with a couple that ran a Yamaha 2.5HP on their M17 - this was on one of Larry Yake's San Juan Islands trips. They did fine though the Yamaha 2.5 only available as a short 15" shaft so they had prop cavitation issues if the waves got up.
I lived aboard my M17 for 10 weeks and only had a 30watt solar panel and group 24 battery. Never needed an alternator nor hooking up to shore power. Prior to having solar gone 5 days without needing to charge the battery (again group 24) - also done the non-solar nor alternator route on multiple Jerry designs: M15, M17, Sage 17 and SageCat.
M17 SWEET PEA's motor is a Suzuki 4HP long 20" shaft. No alternator or external tank.
Andrei how are you using the boat? Buy a motor that fits how you sail/cruise. Only day sailing? Only one night aboard? Long multiple week trips? Lakes? Coastal? Share some details and I share my POV.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 12:40 PM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments! Andrei
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On my M-17 I have the Honda 5 with generator probably 65 lbs. My boat has been one of the faster M-17's I have sailed with so the weight does not seem to be a problem. I have always trailed with the motor on the bracket (SoCal to the San Juans, Lake Havasu several times, and harbors from San Diego to Ventura CA). I know it is not recommended to tow with the motor on the bracket but I lash it down so it will not move around and with all these miles I don't seem to have any transom issues. Just had the trailer re done by Pacific and was suppose to get an outboard bracket on the trailer but that did not happen. So for now I will continue to tow with the motor on the bracket. Jim M-17 #603 Grace <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free. www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 6:07 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
The Tohatsu/Mercury 3.5 at ~41 lbs. could work for you, IF you can live with no reverse gear.
Fuel tank is built-in, so no hose to kink when spinning it 180 degrees.
The extra HP over the Honda 2.3 or Suzuki 2.5 should get you what you need in really strong headwinds, if you want close to hull speed in any navigable conditions.
Fuel consumption per distance is going to go up steeply as you approach & hold hull speed...just have plenty of fuel if you want to maintain that pace!
I would say more HP than that is wasted and just extra weight on an M17 (since you can't get up to 4hp+ without adding ~20 more lbs, for newer 4-cycle outboards).
I'm a minimalist in some aspects, so I got the Honda 2.3. If I wasn't a minimalist, I would probably have got the Tohatsu 3.5. It's a better deal per HP, at only about $50 more street price (not to mention cheaper per pound ;-).
My M17 came with a nearly new Tohatsu 6hp SailPro extra long shaft. Complete overkill...dunno what the previous owners were thinking. Maybe a fast talking outboard salesman?
Just idling, if I put it in gear it was more thrust than felt safe for maneuvering in confined spaces like marina docks & passages etc., and the torque it put on the mount & transom was scary to watch. I sold it early on, to someone with a Venuture 25 or something "big" like that.
Best wishes for your choice, whatever it be...!
cheers, John
On 10/13/20 4:46 PM, Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats wrote:
Thanks all for the replies, that is quite a help already! First off, hat tip to my namesake Andre ;)
To answer Dave’s question, most of my sailing is day sailing, but I did several 4-5 day long trips on Lake Michigan and Lake Superior (island hopping near shore only, or a long crossing from the north shore to Isle Royale and back). In the future I expect to do more Lake Michigan sailing, near shore in the bays around Door County, Baileys Harbor area. (Btw, any fellow Monty owners in that area?)
Getting electricity is the least important requirement for me. But one thing I really don’t want is to have to take the engine off and on every time I go sailing, that would be a deal killer for me. So light weight and reliability are the most important factors. The motor must also be able to push the boat, close to hull speed, even in 25-30kts of wind. This is a safety issue I don’t want to compromise on, in big water. I don’t want to install a new mount, if possible.
Based on what I’ve heard so far I guess the best option is still to refurbish my 4hp, or else to try to look for another 1980’s two stroke motor. That’s a bit of a bummer, I was really hoping to go to a four stroke motor; it always makes my heart sink when I see a thin film of oil extending on the surface of pristine water from my motor when I start up.
So the moral of the story is — no perfect motor, huh? Nothing in the 4-5hp range, 4 stroke, weighing less than 40lbs and with reverse? (I don’t mind turning the motor around, but it always kinks the fuel line and I keep worrying that the motor will run out of fuel at just the wrong time... This may not be a problem on the Honda 2hp which has the fuel tank built in, but it is an issue with my motor.)
Thanks, Andrei.
On Oct 13, 2020, at 18:16, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
I forgot to add - the fixed height motor mount mount is problematic for a 4-cycle motor. The power heads are larger than on a 2-cycle. Means you can't tilt up the motor. A spacer is needed to get enough transom clearance. Or you can install a lifting mount - best is the Garhauer OB-125.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 3:36 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
The best no longer available motor for the M17 was the Yamaha 4HP long, 20", shaft. All motors in the 4-6HP range are now 6HP powerheads with different carbs.
A Honda 2/2.3 HP will push the M17 just fine. You will not have as much reserve for fighting wind and to an extent waves (the 17 is a displacement hull and throwing horsepower at it will not make the boat go faster - such as going against current).
For perspective my 25' on deck (29' on spar) wooden full keel 8500# sailboat/home has a Honda 8. I live on and cruise the Salish Sea.
I've cruised with a couple that ran a Yamaha 2.5HP on their M17 - this was on one of Larry Yake's San Juan Islands trips. They did fine though the Yamaha 2.5 only available as a short 15" shaft so they had prop cavitation issues if the waves got up.
I lived aboard my M17 for 10 weeks and only had a 30watt solar panel and group 24 battery. Never needed an alternator nor hooking up to shore power. Prior to having solar gone 5 days without needing to charge the battery (again group 24) - also done the non-solar nor alternator route on multiple Jerry designs: M15, M17, Sage 17 and SageCat.
M17 SWEET PEA's motor is a Suzuki 4HP long 20" shaft. No alternator or external tank.
Andrei how are you using the boat? Buy a motor that fits how you sail/cruise. Only day sailing? Only one night aboard? Long multiple week trips? Lakes? Coastal? Share some details and I share my POV.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 12:40 PM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments! Andrei
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
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To tag onto that - they generally won't fit in the transom cutout either. Or they might fit, if you don't need to turn them more than a few degrees...forget the 180 spin for reverse! I can mount the Honda 2.3hp in there, but it's not usable unless I only went forward and only turned with the rudder. Luckily my boat came with an older but nice sturdy stainless/wood lifting-adjustable motor mount. Also I recommend reinforcing the transom on the motor mount side, if it's not already. cheers, John On 10/13/20 4:16 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
I forgot to add - the fixed height motor mount mount is problematic for a 4-cycle motor. The power heads are larger than on a 2-cycle. Means you can't tilt up the motor. A spacer is needed to get enough transom clearance. Or you can install a lifting mount - best is the Garhauer OB-125.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 3:36 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
The best no longer available motor for the M17 was the Yamaha 4HP long, 20", shaft. All motors in the 4-6HP range are now 6HP powerheads with different carbs.
A Honda 2/2.3 HP will push the M17 just fine. You will not have as much reserve for fighting wind and to an extent waves (the 17 is a displacement hull and throwing horsepower at it will not make the boat go faster - such as going against current).
For perspective my 25' on deck (29' on spar) wooden full keel 8500# sailboat/home has a Honda 8. I live on and cruise the Salish Sea.
I've cruised with a couple that ran a Yamaha 2.5HP on their M17 - this was on one of Larry Yake's San Juan Islands trips. They did fine though the Yamaha 2.5 only available as a short 15" shaft so they had prop cavitation issues if the waves got up.
I lived aboard my M17 for 10 weeks and only had a 30watt solar panel and group 24 battery. Never needed an alternator nor hooking up to shore power. Prior to having solar gone 5 days without needing to charge the battery (again group 24) - also done the non-solar nor alternator route on multiple Jerry designs: M15, M17, Sage 17 and SageCat.
M17 SWEET PEA's motor is a Suzuki 4HP long 20" shaft. No alternator or external tank.
Andrei how are you using the boat? Buy a motor that fits how you sail/cruise. Only day sailing? Only one night aboard? Long multiple week trips? Lakes? Coastal? Share some details and I share my POV.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 12:40 PM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments! Andrei
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I have an older 4 hp Mariner motor on my M-Boat that has a reverse gear. I have found the $ 100 + I invest each spring at the local motor shop keeps it dependable. I do not know how much the motor weighs, but I do know that it is getting heavier as I get older and remove it every season. Hadn't thought about the weight on the transom mount, more concerned about not leaving it out in the weather that occasionally freezes. Steve M-15 # 335 -----Original Message----- From: Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 12:40 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Motor for M17 Hello fellow Monty owners, my 1982 M17 came with a trusty old Evinrude 4hp, 2 cylinder version (see attached, old picture). Advantage -- lightweight (35lbs). Disadvantages -- works only sometimes, and has left me stranded a number of times in no-wind conditions; very noisy; uses smelly gasoline -- my wife complains about this a lot; no reverse; no alternator. Recently it has caused me enough troubles that I decided to try looking for another motor. One model that I was looking at was the Tohatsu Propane 5hp which seemed to do everything right. Until I looked at the weight -- well over 65 lbs! As currently set up, my boat has the original fixed motor mount, and I leave the Evinrude there all the time, including when trailering long distances. Never had a problem. After seeing the weight of the Tohatsu, I started having doubts that it would be a good idea to get it. I fear that keeping it on the mount all the time will damage my transom or my mount during trailering. Three questions: a) Does anyone have experience with keeping a heavy motor on the mount all the time?b) If the Tohatsu is not the right one, are there recommendations for a lightweight, reliable, motor for the M17 that is quiet and has reverse? I don't think the Honda 2hp is powerful enough for the M17. c) Alternatively, do people feel that I may simply be better off doing a complete refurbishing of my Evinrude? I could get it in tip top shape for about $150, I guess. I am handy with mechanicals, and I have in the past replaced points, condensers, etc. Thanks for all your comments!Andrei.
participants (14)
-
Alex Conley -
andrecas -
Andrei Caldararu -
casioqv＠usermail.com -
Dave Scobie -
Henry Rodriguez -
Jim Ellsworth -
John Schinnerer -
Keith R. Martin -
Peter Zimowsky -
Randy Sommerfeld -
Rimantas Aukstuolis -
Rob Bultman -
Steve Trapp