I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. I found that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the fluky winds where I am sailing) can hang the boom in the backstay if the main is single- reefed. I generally pull the boom across by hand to cushion the shock of a gybe, so the boom does not ride up, but big gusts can be unpredictable if they are not touching the lake surface. Anyway, a vang seemed unnecessary with the mainsheet in mid-cockpit, but now think a small four-part might hold the boom down enough to keep it clear of the backstay under unusual conditions. Any thoughts? On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a height that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from the masthead. I tried raising the main to the top of the slot, but the roach in my (presumably stock) Elliot-Pattison main puts a good chunk of the sail--and the upper batten--a few inches outside the backstay. Has anyone had a broken batten or a hung sail during tacking with this configuration? I prefer not to learn the hard way. Thanks, Tom Jenkins 2004 M17 Scintilla
Tom, This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I think you said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the aluminum boom extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the end fittings). The newer boom extrusions are over 8' long and can hang up on the backstay. This is with the gooseneck correctly positioned at 19" off the deck (per Bob Eeg). My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it to barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut it down to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short to accommodate the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison mainsail. This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek block. I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the boom end fitting. I actually like this better because it gives me more control over the foot tension and is stronger and simpler. A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of trouble as well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway and I find that more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less time (and energy) for sailing. Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later rigs. So far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in light winds. Jim On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. I found that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the fluky winds where I am sailing) can hang the boom in the backstay if the main is single- reefed. I generally pull the boom across by hand to cushion the shock of a gybe, so the boom does not ride up, but big gusts can be unpredictable if they are not touching the lake surface. Anyway, a vang seemed unnecessary with the mainsheet in mid-cockpit, but now think a small four-part might hold the boom down enough to keep it clear of the backstay under unusual conditions. Any thoughts?
On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a height that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from the masthead. I tried raising the main to the top of the slot, but the roach in my (presumably stock) Elliot-Pattison main puts a good chunk of the sail--and the upper batten--a few inches outside the backstay. Has anyone had a broken batten or a hung sail during tacking with this configuration? I prefer not to learn the hard way.
Thanks,
Tom Jenkins 2004 M17 Scintilla
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Jim, Thanks for the excellent information. I did not known how high the boom should be set, but with trial and error I coincidentally came up with exactly 19" above the tabernacle base. My boom measures 8' 2.5" long from the mast to the end of the aft fitting, or about 8' even without fittings. This setup overlaps the backstay about an inch if the boom rises, so trimming off 2.25" would be perfect, with no drawbacks that I can foresee. I too prefer to dispense with a vang if I can help it. Incidentally, what is a "bow shackle" ? Your solution sounds elegant, but I can't visualize a shackle that adjusts tension. Maybe a small turnbuckle would also work. Tom Jenkins On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I think you said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the aluminum boom extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the end fittings). The newer boom extrusions are over 8' long and can hang up on the backstay. This is with the gooseneck correctly positioned at 19" off the deck (per Bob Eeg).
My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it to barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut it down to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short to accommodate the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison mainsail.
This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek block. I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the boom end fitting. I actually like this better because it gives me more control over the foot tension and is stronger and simpler.
A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of trouble as well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway and I find that more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less time (and energy) for sailing.
Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later rigs. So far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in light winds.
Jim
On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. I found that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the fluky winds where I am sailing) can hang the boom in the backstay if the main is single-reefed. I generally pull the boom across by hand to cushion the shock of a gybe, so the boom does not ride up, but big gusts can be unpredictable if they are not touching the lake surface. Anyway, a vang seemed unnecessary with the mainsheet in mid-cockpit, but now think a small four-part might hold the boom down enough to keep it clear of the backstay under unusual conditions. Any thoughts?
On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a height that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from the masthead. I tried raising the main to the top of the slot, but the roach in my (presumably stock) Elliot-Pattison main puts a good chunk of the sail--and the upper batten--a few inches outside the backstay. Has anyone had a broken batten or a hung sail during tacking with this configuration? I prefer not to learn the hard way.
Thanks,
Tom Jenkins 2004 M17 Scintilla
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Tom, A bow shackle is just like a U-shaped pin shackle except it is more rounded - like a horseshoe (I'll email you a picture of my setup tomorrow). The bow shackle itself doesn't do anything to adjust tension, it simply provides a "loop" to pass a few turns of 3/16" line through. The line runs through the bow shackle and the sail clew grommet a few times to give a purchase so it can be easily pulled taut (unlike the stock setup). It is then tied off in a reef knot. There's really nothing elegant about it. In fact, its the kind of simple, strong rigging that would look right at home on a 19th century fishing boat. With the boom extrusion cut down to about 7'10" there simply isn't room for fancy outhaul fittings (not even a cheek block). The thing to consider carefully is the foot of YOUR particular sail. Pulled drum-taut, the clew of my stock EP main is left with over an inch to spare for old age stretch (Jerry M. recommended 1/2"). The actual surgery is really simple, but I went through a measure... think... measure... think... process that lasted over a month before I finally got the courage to cut into my brand-new boom. I'm happy with the result. Jim On Sep 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Thanks for the excellent information. I did not known how high the boom should be set, but with trial and error I coincidentally came up with exactly 19" above the tabernacle base. My boom measures 8' 2.5" long from the mast to the end of the aft fitting, or about 8' even without fittings. This setup overlaps the backstay about an inch if the boom rises, so trimming off 2.25" would be perfect, with no drawbacks that I can foresee. I too prefer to dispense with a vang if I can help it. Incidentally, what is a "bow shackle" ? Your solution sounds elegant, but I can't visualize a shackle that adjusts tension. Maybe a small turnbuckle would also work.
Tom Jenkins
On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I think you said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the aluminum boom extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the end fittings). The newer boom extrusions are over 8' long and can hang up on the backstay. This is with the gooseneck correctly positioned at 19" off the deck (per Bob Eeg).
My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it to barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut it down to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short to accommodate the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison mainsail.
This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek block. I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the boom end fitting. I actually like this better because it gives me more control over the foot tension and is stronger and simpler.
A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of trouble as well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway and I find that more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less time (and energy) for sailing.
Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later rigs. So far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in light winds.
Jim
On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. I found that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the fluky winds where I am sailing) can hang the boom in the backstay if the main is single-reefed. I generally pull the boom across by hand to cushion the shock of a gybe, so the boom does not ride up, but big gusts can be unpredictable if they are not touching the lake surface. Anyway, a vang seemed unnecessary with the mainsheet in mid-cockpit, but now think a small four-part might hold the boom down enough to keep it clear of the backstay under unusual conditions. Any thoughts?
On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a height that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from the masthead. I tried raising the main to the top of the slot, but the roach in my (presumably stock) Elliot-Pattison main puts a good chunk of the sail--and the upper batten--a few inches outside the backstay. Has anyone had a broken batten or a hung sail during tacking with this configuration? I prefer not to learn the hard way.
Thanks,
Tom Jenkins 2004 M17 Scintilla
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Jim, Your verbal description did the trick. There they are in catalogs and in my can of stainless fittings, but I never knew they had a special name. I will need a new location for the topping lift shackle, but your solution will work for me. I will even get a free block for my reefing system. Thanks again for your advice. Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:17 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
A bow shackle is just like a U-shaped pin shackle except it is more rounded - like a horseshoe (I'll email you a picture of my setup tomorrow). The bow shackle itself doesn't do anything to adjust tension, it simply provides a "loop" to pass a few turns of 3/16" line through. The line runs through the bow shackle and the sail clew grommet a few times to give a purchase so it can be easily pulled taut (unlike the stock setup). It is then tied off in a reef knot. There's really nothing elegant about it. In fact, its the kind of simple, strong rigging that would look right at home on a 19th century fishing boat.
With the boom extrusion cut down to about 7'10" there simply isn't room for fancy outhaul fittings (not even a cheek block). The thing to consider carefully is the foot of YOUR particular sail. Pulled drum-taut, the clew of my stock EP main is left with over an inch to spare for old age stretch (Jerry M. recommended 1/2").
The actual surgery is really simple, but I went through a measure... think... measure... think... process that lasted over a month before I finally got the courage to cut into my brand-new boom. I'm happy with the result.
Jim
On Sep 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Thanks for the excellent information. I did not known how high the boom should be set, but with trial and error I coincidentally came up with exactly 19" above the tabernacle base. My boom measures 8' 2.5" long from the mast to the end of the aft fitting, or about 8' even without fittings. This setup overlaps the backstay about an inch if the boom rises, so trimming off 2.25" would be perfect, with no drawbacks that I can foresee. I too prefer to dispense with a vang if I can help it. Incidentally, what is a "bow shackle" ? Your solution sounds elegant, but I can't visualize a shackle that adjusts tension. Maybe a small turnbuckle would also work.
Tom Jenkins
On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I think you said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the aluminum boom extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the end fittings). The newer boom extrusions are over 8' long and can hang up on the backstay. This is with the gooseneck correctly positioned at 19" off the deck (per Bob Eeg).
My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it to barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut it down to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short to accommodate the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison mainsail.
This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek block. I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the boom end fitting. I actually like this better because it gives me more control over the foot tension and is stronger and simpler.
A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of trouble as well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway and I find that more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less time (and energy) for sailing.
Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later rigs. So far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in light winds.
Jim
On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. I found that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the fluky winds where I am sailing) can hang the boom in the backstay if the main is single-reefed. I generally pull the boom across by hand to cushion the shock of a gybe, so the boom does not ride up, but big gusts can be unpredictable if they are not touching the lake surface. Anyway, a vang seemed unnecessary with the mainsheet in mid-cockpit, but now think a small four-part might hold the boom down enough to keep it clear of the backstay under unusual conditions. Any thoughts?
On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a height that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from the masthead. I tried raising the main to the top of the slot, but the roach in my (presumably stock) Elliot-Pattison main puts a good chunk of the sail--and the upper batten--a few inches outside the backstay. Has anyone had a broken batten or a hung sail during tacking with this configuration? I prefer not to learn the hard way.
Thanks,
Tom Jenkins 2004 M17 Scintilla
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Tom, Just for reference: After surgery my final boom extrusion length came out to exactly 93.75". Again, this is just the aluminum extrusion without ANY end fittings on it. In retrospect, it could have been cut down to Jerry's 93" (7'9"). But in my case, that would have been a little too close for comfort. Your mainsail foot length may be different from mine. By the way, that is exactly how I used my extra cheek block. Jim On Sep 13, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Your verbal description did the trick. There they are in catalogs and in my can of stainless fittings, but I never knew they had a special name. I will need a new location for the topping lift shackle, but your solution will work for me. I will even get a free block for my reefing system. Thanks again for your advice.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:17 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
A bow shackle is just like a U-shaped pin shackle except it is more rounded - like a horseshoe (I'll email you a picture of my setup tomorrow). The bow shackle itself doesn't do anything to adjust tension, it simply provides a "loop" to pass a few turns of 3/16" line through. The line runs through the bow shackle and the sail clew grommet a few times to give a purchase so it can be easily pulled taut (unlike the stock setup). It is then tied off in a reef knot. There's really nothing elegant about it. In fact, its the kind of simple, strong rigging that would look right at home on a 19th century fishing boat.
With the boom extrusion cut down to about 7'10" there simply isn't room for fancy outhaul fittings (not even a cheek block). The thing to consider carefully is the foot of YOUR particular sail. Pulled drum-taut, the clew of my stock EP main is left with over an inch to spare for old age stretch (Jerry M. recommended 1/2").
The actual surgery is really simple, but I went through a measure... think... measure... think... process that lasted over a month before I finally got the courage to cut into my brand-new boom. I'm happy with the result.
Jim
On Sep 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Thanks for the excellent information. I did not known how high the boom should be set, but with trial and error I coincidentally came up with exactly 19" above the tabernacle base. My boom measures 8' 2.5" long from the mast to the end of the aft fitting, or about 8' even without fittings. This setup overlaps the backstay about an inch if the boom rises, so trimming off 2.25" would be perfect, with no drawbacks that I can foresee. I too prefer to dispense with a vang if I can help it. Incidentally, what is a "bow shackle" ? Your solution sounds elegant, but I can't visualize a shackle that adjusts tension. Maybe a small turnbuckle would also work.
Tom Jenkins
On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I think you said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the aluminum boom extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the end fittings). The newer boom extrusions are over 8' long and can hang up on the backstay. This is with the gooseneck correctly positioned at 19" off the deck (per Bob Eeg).
My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it to barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut it down to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short to accommodate the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison mainsail.
This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek block. I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the boom end fitting. I actually like this better because it gives me more control over the foot tension and is stronger and simpler.
A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of trouble as well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway and I find that more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less time (and energy) for sailing.
Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later rigs. So far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in light winds.
Jim
On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. I found that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the fluky winds where I am sailing) can hang the boom in the backstay if the main is single-reefed. I generally pull the boom across by hand to cushion the shock of a gybe, so the boom does not ride up, but big gusts can be unpredictable if they are not touching the lake surface. Anyway, a vang seemed unnecessary with the mainsheet in mid-cockpit, but now think a small four-part might hold the boom down enough to keep it clear of the backstay under unusual conditions. Any thoughts?
On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a height that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from the masthead. I tried raising the main to the top of the slot, but the roach in my (presumably stock) Elliot-Pattison main puts a good chunk of the sail--and the upper batten--a few inches outside the backstay. Has anyone had a broken batten or a hung sail during tacking with this configuration? I prefer not to learn the hard way.
Thanks,
Tom Jenkins 2004 M17 Scintilla
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Jim, Within tolerances at E/P, we probably have the same sail. I will measure it today if the wind doesn't blow me off the boat. Mind if I ask how you secure your reefing lines? I like cam cleats, but the boom is pretty small and roundy even for a Harken micro. I have also considered medium Ronstan V-cleats with leads, and 4" Schaefer jam cleats. Any could be made to work after a fashion, but I don't know if I have considered all the angles. Frankly, it is fun to do these mods, because little things can make the boats so user-friendly. The "big one" will be gating the cutout on the mast so I won't have to get on the deck and feed the sail slugs across it by hand. Tom On Sep 13, 2009, at 11:18 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
Just for reference: After surgery my final boom extrusion length came out to exactly 93.75". Again, this is just the aluminum extrusion without ANY end fittings on it. In retrospect, it could have been cut down to Jerry's 93" (7'9"). But in my case, that would have been a little too close for comfort. Your mainsail foot length may be different from mine.
By the way, that is exactly how I used my extra cheek block.
Jim
On Sep 13, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Your verbal description did the trick. There they are in catalogs and in my can of stainless fittings, but I never knew they had a special name. I will need a new location for the topping lift shackle, but your solution will work for me. I will even get a free block for my reefing system. Thanks again for your advice.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:17 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
A bow shackle is just like a U-shaped pin shackle except it is more rounded - like a horseshoe (I'll email you a picture of my setup tomorrow). The bow shackle itself doesn't do anything to adjust tension, it simply provides a "loop" to pass a few turns of 3/16" line through. The line runs through the bow shackle and the sail clew grommet a few times to give a purchase so it can be easily pulled taut (unlike the stock setup). It is then tied off in a reef knot. There's really nothing elegant about it. In fact, its the kind of simple, strong rigging that would look right at home on a 19th century fishing boat.
With the boom extrusion cut down to about 7'10" there simply isn't room for fancy outhaul fittings (not even a cheek block). The thing to consider carefully is the foot of YOUR particular sail. Pulled drum-taut, the clew of my stock EP main is left with over an inch to spare for old age stretch (Jerry M. recommended 1/2").
The actual surgery is really simple, but I went through a measure... think... measure... think... process that lasted over a month before I finally got the courage to cut into my brand-new boom. I'm happy with the result.
Jim
On Sep 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Thanks for the excellent information. I did not known how high the boom should be set, but with trial and error I coincidentally came up with exactly 19" above the tabernacle base. My boom measures 8' 2.5" long from the mast to the end of the aft fitting, or about 8' even without fittings. This setup overlaps the backstay about an inch if the boom rises, so trimming off 2.25" would be perfect, with no drawbacks that I can foresee. I too prefer to dispense with a vang if I can help it. Incidentally, what is a "bow shackle" ? Your solution sounds elegant, but I can't visualize a shackle that adjusts tension. Maybe a small turnbuckle would also work.
Tom Jenkins
On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I think you said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the aluminum boom extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the end fittings). The newer boom extrusions are over 8' long and can hang up on the backstay. This is with the gooseneck correctly positioned at 19" off the deck (per Bob Eeg).
My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it to barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut it down to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short to accommodate the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison mainsail.
This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek block. I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the boom end fitting. I actually like this better because it gives me more control over the foot tension and is stronger and simpler.
A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of trouble as well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway and I find that more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less time (and energy) for sailing.
Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later rigs. So far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in light winds.
Jim
On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. I found that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the fluky winds where I am sailing) can hang the boom in the backstay if the main is single-reefed. I generally pull the boom across by hand to cushion the shock of a gybe, so the boom does not ride up, but big gusts can be unpredictable if they are not touching the lake surface. Anyway, a vang seemed unnecessary with the mainsheet in mid-cockpit, but now think a small four- part might hold the boom down enough to keep it clear of the backstay under unusual conditions. Any thoughts?
On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a height that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from the masthead. I tried raising the main to the top of the slot, but the roach in my (presumably stock) Elliot-Pattison main puts a good chunk of the sail--and the upper batten--a few inches outside the backstay. Has anyone had a broken batten or a hung sail during tacking with this configuration? I prefer not to learn the hard way.
Thanks,
Tom Jenkins 2004 M17 Scintilla
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Tom, The jiffy reefing system I use is pretty standard at the clew: The 1st reef starts at an eye on the starboard side of the boom - runs through the clew cringle on the sail - drops down to that salvaged cheek block on the port side of the boom - then goes forward to a plastic horn cleat - also on the port side of the boom. When snugged down, the line pulls the clew down (and out) at about a 45 degree angle. The second reef is a mirror image - just placed a little further forward on the boom. I like the simplicity of horn cleats on the boom for reefing lines. The line can't shake free and they give you a place to tie off the coil of excess line. My cleats are located on the boom so I can stand near the center of the boat surrounded by plenty of cockpit and high combing. That also keeps them far enough inboard so that they will not interfere with the shrouds when the boom is let out. I'm not a fan of plastic horn cleats but I had a couple that were the perfect size. Besides, I figure they wont hurt as much when I bang my head on them. For the tack I have an eye (with line attached) on the port side of the mast and a horn cleat on the starboard side of the mast (near the gooseneck). To reef, the main halyard is given some slack and tied off. Then the reefing tack line is threaded up through the tack cringle, pulled down (giving a 2:1 purchase), and tied off on the starboard mast cleat. A permanently fastened slide stop in the mast groove prevents the boom from falling to the deck. All hardware is fastened with 10-24 machine screws and blue Locktite. I checked with Dwyer and they insist that 10-24 machine screws or pop-rivets are equally suitable in this application. This is my attempt to strike a balance between strong, quick reefing, and rapid set up at the launch ramp. Certainly a system where everything is lead back to the cabin top would be more yachty. But Spirit's boom must be mounted/removed for each sail and I wanted to avoid having to thread a bunch of fancy rigging. I also experimented with tack hooks but couldn't get them to work with my current sail and boom. Mast gate: I made one of these out of "Sea-Board". It works great. Pictures and more info to follow... If you're interested I can get measurements and sizes for all this stuff. But right now a social commitment is imminent and my g/f is giving me that "Don't you think you should be getting ready?" look. Buh-bye Jim On Sep 13, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Within tolerances at E/P, we probably have the same sail. I will measure it today if the wind doesn't blow me off the boat.
Mind if I ask how you secure your reefing lines? I like cam cleats, but the boom is pretty small and roundy even for a Harken micro. I have also considered medium Ronstan V-cleats with leads, and 4" Schaefer jam cleats. Any could be made to work after a fashion, but I don't know if I have considered all the angles. Frankly, it is fun to do these mods, because little things can make the boats so user-friendly. The "big one" will be gating the cutout on the mast so I won't have to get on the deck and feed the sail slugs across it by hand.
Tom
On Sep 13, 2009, at 11:18 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
Just for reference: After surgery my final boom extrusion length came out to exactly 93.75". Again, this is just the aluminum extrusion without ANY end fittings on it. In retrospect, it could have been cut down to Jerry's 93" (7'9"). But in my case, that would have been a little too close for comfort. Your mainsail foot length may be different from mine.
By the way, that is exactly how I used my extra cheek block.
Jim
On Sep 13, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Your verbal description did the trick. There they are in catalogs and in my can of stainless fittings, but I never knew they had a special name. I will need a new location for the topping lift shackle, but your solution will work for me. I will even get a free block for my reefing system. Thanks again for your advice.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:17 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
A bow shackle is just like a U-shaped pin shackle except it is more rounded - like a horseshoe (I'll email you a picture of my setup tomorrow). The bow shackle itself doesn't do anything to adjust tension, it simply provides a "loop" to pass a few turns of 3/16" line through. The line runs through the bow shackle and the sail clew grommet a few times to give a purchase so it can be easily pulled taut (unlike the stock setup). It is then tied off in a reef knot. There's really nothing elegant about it. In fact, its the kind of simple, strong rigging that would look right at home on a 19th century fishing boat.
With the boom extrusion cut down to about 7'10" there simply isn't room for fancy outhaul fittings (not even a cheek block). The thing to consider carefully is the foot of YOUR particular sail. Pulled drum-taut, the clew of my stock EP main is left with over an inch to spare for old age stretch (Jerry M. recommended 1/2").
The actual surgery is really simple, but I went through a measure... think... measure... think... process that lasted over a month before I finally got the courage to cut into my brand- new boom. I'm happy with the result.
Jim
On Sep 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Thanks for the excellent information. I did not known how high the boom should be set, but with trial and error I coincidentally came up with exactly 19" above the tabernacle base. My boom measures 8' 2.5" long from the mast to the end of the aft fitting, or about 8' even without fittings. This setup overlaps the backstay about an inch if the boom rises, so trimming off 2.25" would be perfect, with no drawbacks that I can foresee. I too prefer to dispense with a vang if I can help it. Incidentally, what is a "bow shackle" ? Your solution sounds elegant, but I can't visualize a shackle that adjusts tension. Maybe a small turnbuckle would also work.
Tom Jenkins
On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I think you said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the aluminum boom extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the end fittings). The newer boom extrusions are over 8' long and can hang up on the backstay. This is with the gooseneck correctly positioned at 19" off the deck (per Bob Eeg).
My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it to barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut it down to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short to accommodate the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison mainsail.
This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek block. I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the boom end fitting. I actually like this better because it gives me more control over the foot tension and is stronger and simpler.
A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of trouble as well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway and I find that more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less time (and energy) for sailing.
Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later rigs. So far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in light winds.
Jim
On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
> I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. I > found that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the fluky > winds where I am sailing) can hang the boom in the backstay > if the main is single-reefed. I generally pull the boom > across by hand to cushion the shock of a gybe, so the boom > does not ride up, but big gusts can be unpredictable if they > are not touching the lake surface. Anyway, a vang seemed > unnecessary with the mainsheet in mid-cockpit, but now think > a small four-part might hold the boom down enough to keep it > clear of the backstay under unusual conditions. Any thoughts? > > On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a > height that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from the > masthead. I tried raising the main to the top of the slot, > but the roach in my (presumably stock) Elliot-Pattison main > puts a good chunk of the sail--and the upper batten--a few > inches outside the backstay. Has anyone had a broken batten > or a hung sail during tacking with this configuration? I > prefer not to learn the hard way. > > Thanks, > > Tom Jenkins > 2004 M17 Scintilla > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Jim, "...Mast gate: I made one of these out of "Sea-Board". It works great. Pictures and more info to follow..." definitely caught my interest. Could you please email (seagray@embarqmail.com) me some pics. Thanks much, Joe Seafrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 5:59 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: boom vang
Tom,
The jiffy reefing system I use is pretty standard at the clew: The 1st reef starts at an eye on the starboard side of the boom - runs through the clew cringle on the sail - drops down to that salvaged cheek block on the port side of the boom - then goes forward to a plastic horn cleat - also on the port side of the boom. When snugged down, the line pulls the clew down (and out) at about a 45 degree angle. The second reef is a mirror image - just placed a little further forward on the boom.
I like the simplicity of horn cleats on the boom for reefing lines. The line can't shake free and they give you a place to tie off the coil of excess line. My cleats are located on the boom so I can stand near the center of the boat surrounded by plenty of cockpit and high combing. That also keeps them far enough inboard so that they will not interfere with the shrouds when the boom is let out. I'm not a fan of plastic horn cleats but I had a couple that were the perfect size. Besides, I figure they wont hurt as much when I bang my head on them.
For the tack I have an eye (with line attached) on the port side of the mast and a horn cleat on the starboard side of the mast (near the gooseneck). To reef, the main halyard is given some slack and tied off. Then the reefing tack line is threaded up through the tack cringle, pulled down (giving a 2:1 purchase), and tied off on the starboard mast cleat. A permanently fastened slide stop in the mast groove prevents the boom from falling to the deck.
All hardware is fastened with 10-24 machine screws and blue Locktite. I checked with Dwyer and they insist that 10-24 machine screws or pop-rivets are equally suitable in this application.
This is my attempt to strike a balance between strong, quick reefing, and rapid set up at the launch ramp. Certainly a system where everything is lead back to the cabin top would be more yachty. But Spirit's boom must be mounted/removed for each sail and I wanted to avoid having to thread a bunch of fancy rigging.
I also experimented with tack hooks but couldn't get them to work with my current sail and boom.
Mast gate: I made one of these out of "Sea-Board". It works great. Pictures and more info to follow...
If you're interested I can get measurements and sizes for all this stuff. But right now a social commitment is imminent and my g/f is giving me that "Don't you think you should be getting ready?" look.
Buh-bye
Jim
On Sep 13, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Within tolerances at E/P, we probably have the same sail. I will measure it today if the wind doesn't blow me off the boat.
Mind if I ask how you secure your reefing lines? I like cam cleats, but the boom is pretty small and roundy even for a Harken micro. I have also considered medium Ronstan V-cleats with leads, and 4" Schaefer jam cleats. Any could be made to work after a fashion, but I don't know if I have considered all the angles. Frankly, it is fun to do these mods, because little things can make the boats so user-friendly. The "big one" will be gating the cutout on the mast so I won't have to get on the deck and feed the sail slugs across it by hand.
Tom
On Sep 13, 2009, at 11:18 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
Just for reference: After surgery my final boom extrusion length came out to exactly 93.75". Again, this is just the aluminum extrusion without ANY end fittings on it. In retrospect, it could have been cut down to Jerry's 93" (7'9"). But in my case, that would have been a little too close for comfort. Your mainsail foot length may be different from mine.
By the way, that is exactly how I used my extra cheek block.
Jim
On Sep 13, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Your verbal description did the trick. There they are in catalogs and in my can of stainless fittings, but I never knew they had a special name. I will need a new location for the topping lift shackle, but your solution will work for me. I will even get a free block for my reefing system. Thanks again for your advice.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:17 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
A bow shackle is just like a U-shaped pin shackle except it is more rounded - like a horseshoe (I'll email you a picture of my setup tomorrow). The bow shackle itself doesn't do anything to adjust tension, it simply provides a "loop" to pass a few turns of 3/16" line through. The line runs through the bow shackle and the sail clew grommet a few times to give a purchase so it can be easily pulled taut (unlike the stock setup). It is then tied off in a reef knot. There's really nothing elegant about it. In fact, its the kind of simple, strong rigging that would look right at home on a 19th century fishing boat.
With the boom extrusion cut down to about 7'10" there simply isn't room for fancy outhaul fittings (not even a cheek block). The thing to consider carefully is the foot of YOUR particular sail. Pulled drum-taut, the clew of my stock EP main is left with over an inch to spare for old age stretch (Jerry M. recommended 1/2").
The actual surgery is really simple, but I went through a measure... think... measure... think... process that lasted over a month before I finally got the courage to cut into my brand- new boom. I'm happy with the result.
Jim
On Sep 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Thanks for the excellent information. I did not known how high the boom should be set, but with trial and error I coincidentally came up with exactly 19" above the tabernacle base. My boom measures 8' 2.5" long from the mast to the end of the aft fitting, or about 8' even without fittings. This setup overlaps the backstay about an inch if the boom rises, so trimming off 2.25" would be perfect, with no drawbacks that I can foresee. I too prefer to dispense with a vang if I can help it. Incidentally, what is a "bow shackle" ? Your solution sounds elegant, but I can't visualize a shackle that adjusts tension. Maybe a small turnbuckle would also work.
Tom Jenkins
On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
> Tom, > > This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I think you > said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the aluminum boom > extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the end fittings). The > newer boom extrusions are over 8' long and can hang up on the > backstay. This is with the gooseneck correctly positioned at 19" > off the deck (per Bob Eeg). > > My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it to > barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut it down > to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short to accommodate > the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison mainsail. > > This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek block. > I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the boom end > fitting. I actually like this better because it gives me more > control over the foot tension and is stronger and simpler. > > A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of trouble as > well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway and I find that > more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less time (and energy) for > sailing. > > Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later rigs. So > far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in light winds. > > Jim > > On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote: > >> I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. I found >> that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the fluky winds where I >> am sailing) can hang the boom in the backstay if the main is >> single-reefed. I generally pull the boom across by hand to >> cushion the shock of a gybe, so the boom does not ride up, but big >> gusts can be unpredictable if they are not touching the lake >> surface. Anyway, a vang seemed unnecessary with the mainsheet in >> mid-cockpit, but now think a small four-part might hold the boom >> down enough to keep it clear of the backstay under unusual >> conditions. Any thoughts? >> >> On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a height >> that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from the masthead. I >> tried raising the main to the top of the slot, but the roach in my >> (presumably stock) Elliot-Pattison main puts a good chunk of the >> sail--and the upper batten--a few inches outside the backstay. >> Has anyone had a broken batten or a hung sail during tacking with >> this configuration? I prefer not to learn the hard way. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Tom Jenkins >> 2004 M17 Scintilla >> >> _______________________________________________ >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >> montgomery_boats >> >> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Jim, Perfect. I don't know if all your techniques will work for me, but it's great to have all these alternate approaches. I eagerly anticipate hearing about your "Sea-Board" solution. Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla 2004 On Sep 13, 2009, at 2:59 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
The jiffy reefing system I use is pretty standard at the clew: The 1st reef starts at an eye on the starboard side of the boom - runs through the clew cringle on the sail - drops down to that salvaged cheek block on the port side of the boom - then goes forward to a plastic horn cleat - also on the port side of the boom. When snugged down, the line pulls the clew down (and out) at about a 45 degree angle. The second reef is a mirror image - just placed a little further forward on the boom.
I like the simplicity of horn cleats on the boom for reefing lines. The line can't shake free and they give you a place to tie off the coil of excess line. My cleats are located on the boom so I can stand near the center of the boat surrounded by plenty of cockpit and high combing. That also keeps them far enough inboard so that they will not interfere with the shrouds when the boom is let out. I'm not a fan of plastic horn cleats but I had a couple that were the perfect size. Besides, I figure they wont hurt as much when I bang my head on them.
For the tack I have an eye (with line attached) on the port side of the mast and a horn cleat on the starboard side of the mast (near the gooseneck). To reef, the main halyard is given some slack and tied off. Then the reefing tack line is threaded up through the tack cringle, pulled down (giving a 2:1 purchase), and tied off on the starboard mast cleat. A permanently fastened slide stop in the mast groove prevents the boom from falling to the deck.
All hardware is fastened with 10-24 machine screws and blue Locktite. I checked with Dwyer and they insist that 10-24 machine screws or pop-rivets are equally suitable in this application.
This is my attempt to strike a balance between strong, quick reefing, and rapid set up at the launch ramp. Certainly a system where everything is lead back to the cabin top would be more yachty. But Spirit's boom must be mounted/removed for each sail and I wanted to avoid having to thread a bunch of fancy rigging.
I also experimented with tack hooks but couldn't get them to work with my current sail and boom.
Mast gate: I made one of these out of "Sea-Board". It works great. Pictures and more info to follow...
If you're interested I can get measurements and sizes for all this stuff. But right now a social commitment is imminent and my g/f is giving me that "Don't you think you should be getting ready?" look.
Buh-bye
Jim
On Sep 13, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Within tolerances at E/P, we probably have the same sail. I will measure it today if the wind doesn't blow me off the boat.
Mind if I ask how you secure your reefing lines? I like cam cleats, but the boom is pretty small and roundy even for a Harken micro. I have also considered medium Ronstan V-cleats with leads, and 4" Schaefer jam cleats. Any could be made to work after a fashion, but I don't know if I have considered all the angles. Frankly, it is fun to do these mods, because little things can make the boats so user-friendly. The "big one" will be gating the cutout on the mast so I won't have to get on the deck and feed the sail slugs across it by hand.
Tom
On Sep 13, 2009, at 11:18 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
Just for reference: After surgery my final boom extrusion length came out to exactly 93.75". Again, this is just the aluminum extrusion without ANY end fittings on it. In retrospect, it could have been cut down to Jerry's 93" (7'9"). But in my case, that would have been a little too close for comfort. Your mainsail foot length may be different from mine.
By the way, that is exactly how I used my extra cheek block.
Jim
On Sep 13, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Your verbal description did the trick. There they are in catalogs and in my can of stainless fittings, but I never knew they had a special name. I will need a new location for the topping lift shackle, but your solution will work for me. I will even get a free block for my reefing system. Thanks again for your advice.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:17 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
A bow shackle is just like a U-shaped pin shackle except it is more rounded - like a horseshoe (I'll email you a picture of my setup tomorrow). The bow shackle itself doesn't do anything to adjust tension, it simply provides a "loop" to pass a few turns of 3/16" line through. The line runs through the bow shackle and the sail clew grommet a few times to give a purchase so it can be easily pulled taut (unlike the stock setup). It is then tied off in a reef knot. There's really nothing elegant about it. In fact, its the kind of simple, strong rigging that would look right at home on a 19th century fishing boat.
With the boom extrusion cut down to about 7'10" there simply isn't room for fancy outhaul fittings (not even a cheek block). The thing to consider carefully is the foot of YOUR particular sail. Pulled drum-taut, the clew of my stock EP main is left with over an inch to spare for old age stretch (Jerry M. recommended 1/2").
The actual surgery is really simple, but I went through a measure... think... measure... think... process that lasted over a month before I finally got the courage to cut into my brand-new boom. I'm happy with the result.
Jim
On Sep 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Thanks for the excellent information. I did not known how high the boom should be set, but with trial and error I coincidentally came up with exactly 19" above the tabernacle base. My boom measures 8' 2.5" long from the mast to the end of the aft fitting, or about 8' even without fittings. This setup overlaps the backstay about an inch if the boom rises, so trimming off 2.25" would be perfect, with no drawbacks that I can foresee. I too prefer to dispense with a vang if I can help it. Incidentally, what is a "bow shackle" ? Your solution sounds elegant, but I can't visualize a shackle that adjusts tension. Maybe a small turnbuckle would also work.
Tom Jenkins
On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
> Tom, > > This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I think > you said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the > aluminum boom extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the > end fittings). The newer boom extrusions are over 8' long > and can hang up on the backstay. This is with the gooseneck > correctly positioned at 19" off the deck (per Bob Eeg). > > My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it > to barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut > it down to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short to > accommodate the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison mainsail. > > This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek > block. I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the > boom end fitting. I actually like this better because it > gives me more control over the foot tension and is stronger > and simpler. > > A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of trouble > as well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway and I find > that more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less time (and > energy) for sailing. > > Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later > rigs. So far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in > light winds. > > Jim > > On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote: > >> I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. I >> found that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the fluky >> winds where I am sailing) can hang the boom in the backstay >> if the main is single-reefed. I generally pull the boom >> across by hand to cushion the shock of a gybe, so the boom >> does not ride up, but big gusts can be unpredictable if they >> are not touching the lake surface. Anyway, a vang seemed >> unnecessary with the mainsheet in mid-cockpit, but now think >> a small four-part might hold the boom down enough to keep it >> clear of the backstay under unusual conditions. Any thoughts? >> >> On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a >> height that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from the >> masthead. I tried raising the main to the top of the slot, >> but the roach in my (presumably stock) Elliot-Pattison main >> puts a good chunk of the sail--and the upper batten--a few >> inches outside the backstay. Has anyone had a broken batten >> or a hung sail during tacking with this configuration? I >> prefer not to learn the hard way. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Tom Jenkins >> 2004 M17 Scintilla >> >> _______________________________________________ >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >> montgomery_boats >> >> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Tom, When you find the solution for coming up with a gate to fill that %$#& cutout PLEAASE let me know. I just finished a 4 day 120 mile trip. I made a real simple reefing system that I could do completely from the cockpit but I had to go to the mast every time to futz around with the slot and the slugs. If that cutout had a gate I wouldn't have had any problems. But the way it is set up now, I procrastinate on making reefing changes. And heaven help me when I have to reef from the first to second. It's a strange design. I still can't figure out why the cut out is so high. Must be a bolt rope thing. Joe Seafrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 3:05 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: boom vang
Jim,
Within tolerances at E/P, we probably have the same sail. I will measure it today if the wind doesn't blow me off the boat.
Mind if I ask how you secure your reefing lines? I like cam cleats, but the boom is pretty small and roundy even for a Harken micro. I have also considered medium Ronstan V-cleats with leads, and 4" Schaefer jam cleats. Any could be made to work after a fashion, but I don't know if I have considered all the angles. Frankly, it is fun to do these mods, because little things can make the boats so user-friendly. The "big one" will be gating the cutout on the mast so I won't have to get on the deck and feed the sail slugs across it by hand.
Tom
On Sep 13, 2009, at 11:18 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
Just for reference: After surgery my final boom extrusion length came out to exactly 93.75". Again, this is just the aluminum extrusion without ANY end fittings on it. In retrospect, it could have been cut down to Jerry's 93" (7'9"). But in my case, that would have been a little too close for comfort. Your mainsail foot length may be different from mine.
By the way, that is exactly how I used my extra cheek block.
Jim
On Sep 13, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Your verbal description did the trick. There they are in catalogs and in my can of stainless fittings, but I never knew they had a special name. I will need a new location for the topping lift shackle, but your solution will work for me. I will even get a free block for my reefing system. Thanks again for your advice.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:17 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
A bow shackle is just like a U-shaped pin shackle except it is more rounded - like a horseshoe (I'll email you a picture of my setup tomorrow). The bow shackle itself doesn't do anything to adjust tension, it simply provides a "loop" to pass a few turns of 3/16" line through. The line runs through the bow shackle and the sail clew grommet a few times to give a purchase so it can be easily pulled taut (unlike the stock setup). It is then tied off in a reef knot. There's really nothing elegant about it. In fact, its the kind of simple, strong rigging that would look right at home on a 19th century fishing boat.
With the boom extrusion cut down to about 7'10" there simply isn't room for fancy outhaul fittings (not even a cheek block). The thing to consider carefully is the foot of YOUR particular sail. Pulled drum-taut, the clew of my stock EP main is left with over an inch to spare for old age stretch (Jerry M. recommended 1/2").
The actual surgery is really simple, but I went through a measure... think... measure... think... process that lasted over a month before I finally got the courage to cut into my brand-new boom. I'm happy with the result.
Jim
On Sep 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Thanks for the excellent information. I did not known how high the boom should be set, but with trial and error I coincidentally came up with exactly 19" above the tabernacle base. My boom measures 8' 2.5" long from the mast to the end of the aft fitting, or about 8' even without fittings. This setup overlaps the backstay about an inch if the boom rises, so trimming off 2.25" would be perfect, with no drawbacks that I can foresee. I too prefer to dispense with a vang if I can help it. Incidentally, what is a "bow shackle" ? Your solution sounds elegant, but I can't visualize a shackle that adjusts tension. Maybe a small turnbuckle would also work.
Tom Jenkins
On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I think you said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the aluminum boom extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the end fittings). The newer boom extrusions are over 8' long and can hang up on the backstay. This is with the gooseneck correctly positioned at 19" off the deck (per Bob Eeg).
My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it to barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut it down to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short to accommodate the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison mainsail.
This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek block. I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the boom end fitting. I actually like this better because it gives me more control over the foot tension and is stronger and simpler.
A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of trouble as well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway and I find that more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less time (and energy) for sailing.
Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later rigs. So far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in light winds.
Jim
On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
> I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. I found > that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the fluky winds where I > am sailing) can hang the boom in the backstay if the main is > single-reefed. I generally pull the boom across by hand to cushion > the shock of a gybe, so the boom does not ride up, but big gusts > can be unpredictable if they are not touching the lake surface. > Anyway, a vang seemed unnecessary with the mainsheet in > mid-cockpit, but now think a small four- part might hold the boom > down enough to keep it clear of the backstay under unusual > conditions. Any thoughts? > > On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a height > that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from the masthead. I > tried raising the main to the top of the slot, but the roach in my > (presumably stock) Elliot-Pattison main puts a good chunk of the > sail--and the upper batten--a few inches outside the backstay. Has > anyone had a broken batten or a hung sail during tacking with this > configuration? I prefer not to learn the hard way. > > Thanks, > > Tom Jenkins > 2004 M17 Scintilla > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Joe, I feel your pain! Yesterday I started out with two reefs, and delayed going down to one when the wind abated because it was too much trouble dealing with the dreaded cutout. I have a foot of mast extrusion from Dwyer and plan to cut out a chunk that exactly fits the hole. I will presumably bond it to a larger curved piece of extrusion, and hold the assembly in place with nylon screws (so the hole will not enlarge with use). Jim Poulakis and others have different variations, so I am waiting to see how they did it. As nearly as I can tell, the cutout position is perfect for a boltrope, so this stock setup is versatile if one can gate the high opening. If I were ordering a new boat, however, I think I would opt for a custom opening below where I ride the boom. I cannot safely do mast surgery on a mooring without dropping more tools overboard, but I will certainly pass along my experiences when I pull the boat for its winter rest and rehab (which is early at 7500') . Tom Jenkins On Sep 14, 2009, at 6:51 PM, Joe Murphy wrote:
Tom, When you find the solution for coming up with a gate to fill that % $#& cutout PLEAASE let me know. I just finished a 4 day 120 mile trip. I made a real simple reefing system that I could do completely from the cockpit but I had to go to the mast every time to futz around with the slot and the slugs. If that cutout had a gate I wouldn't have had any problems. But the way it is set up now, I procrastinate on making reefing changes. And heaven help me when I have to reef from the first to second. It's a strange design. I still can't figure out why the cut out is so high. Must be a bolt rope thing. Joe Seafrog M17
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 3:05 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: boom vang
Jim,
Within tolerances at E/P, we probably have the same sail. I will measure it today if the wind doesn't blow me off the boat.
Mind if I ask how you secure your reefing lines? I like cam cleats, but the boom is pretty small and roundy even for a Harken micro. I have also considered medium Ronstan V-cleats with leads, and 4" Schaefer jam cleats. Any could be made to work after a fashion, but I don't know if I have considered all the angles. Frankly, it is fun to do these mods, because little things can make the boats so user-friendly. The "big one" will be gating the cutout on the mast so I won't have to get on the deck and feed the sail slugs across it by hand.
Tom
On Sep 13, 2009, at 11:18 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
Just for reference: After surgery my final boom extrusion length came out to exactly 93.75". Again, this is just the aluminum extrusion without ANY end fittings on it. In retrospect, it could have been cut down to Jerry's 93" (7'9"). But in my case, that would have been a little too close for comfort. Your mainsail foot length may be different from mine.
By the way, that is exactly how I used my extra cheek block.
Jim
On Sep 13, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Your verbal description did the trick. There they are in catalogs and in my can of stainless fittings, but I never knew they had a special name. I will need a new location for the topping lift shackle, but your solution will work for me. I will even get a free block for my reefing system. Thanks again for your advice.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:17 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
A bow shackle is just like a U-shaped pin shackle except it is more rounded - like a horseshoe (I'll email you a picture of my setup tomorrow). The bow shackle itself doesn't do anything to adjust tension, it simply provides a "loop" to pass a few turns of 3/16" line through. The line runs through the bow shackle and the sail clew grommet a few times to give a purchase so it can be easily pulled taut (unlike the stock setup). It is then tied off in a reef knot. There's really nothing elegant about it. In fact, its the kind of simple, strong rigging that would look right at home on a 19th century fishing boat.
With the boom extrusion cut down to about 7'10" there simply isn't room for fancy outhaul fittings (not even a cheek block). The thing to consider carefully is the foot of YOUR particular sail. Pulled drum-taut, the clew of my stock EP main is left with over an inch to spare for old age stretch (Jerry M. recommended 1/2").
The actual surgery is really simple, but I went through a measure... think... measure... think... process that lasted over a month before I finally got the courage to cut into my brand-new boom. I'm happy with the result.
Jim
On Sep 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Thanks for the excellent information. I did not known how high the boom should be set, but with trial and error I coincidentally came up with exactly 19" above the tabernacle base. My boom measures 8' 2.5" long from the mast to the end of the aft fitting, or about 8' even without fittings. This setup overlaps the backstay about an inch if the boom rises, so trimming off 2.25" would be perfect, with no drawbacks that I can foresee. I too prefer to dispense with a vang if I can help it. Incidentally, what is a "bow shackle" ? Your solution sounds elegant, but I can't visualize a shackle that adjusts tension. Maybe a small turnbuckle would also work.
Tom Jenkins
On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
> Tom, > > This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I > think you said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the > aluminum boom extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the > end fittings). The newer boom extrusions are over 8' long > and can hang up on the backstay. This is with the gooseneck > correctly positioned at 19" off the deck (per Bob Eeg). > > My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it > to barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut > it down to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short > to accommodate the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison > mainsail. > > This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek > block. I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the > boom end fitting. I actually like this better because it > gives me more control over the foot tension and is stronger > and simpler. > > A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of > trouble as well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway > and I find that more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less > time (and energy) for sailing. > > Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later > rigs. So far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in > light winds. > > Jim > > On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote: > >> I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. >> I found that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the >> fluky winds where I am sailing) can hang the boom in the >> backstay if the main is single-reefed. I generally pull >> the boom across by hand to cushion the shock of a gybe, so >> the boom does not ride up, but big gusts can be >> unpredictable if they are not touching the lake surface. >> Anyway, a vang seemed unnecessary with the mainsheet in mid- >> cockpit, but now think a small four- part might hold the >> boom down enough to keep it clear of the backstay under >> unusual conditions. Any thoughts? >> >> On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a >> height that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from >> the masthead. I tried raising the main to the top of the >> slot, but the roach in my (presumably stock) Elliot- >> Pattison main puts a good chunk of the sail--and the upper >> batten--a few inches outside the backstay. Has anyone had >> a broken batten or a hung sail during tacking with this >> configuration? I prefer not to learn the hard way. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Tom Jenkins >> 2004 M17 Scintilla >> >> _______________________________________________ >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >> montgomery_boats >> >> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Hey Tom, Have you checked out how Jim Poulakis on "Spirit" made his mast gate out of "Seaboard"? He did a really neat job. I'm probably going to follow suit. Thanks for the followup. Joe Seafrog ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 12:12 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: boom vang
Joe,
I feel your pain! Yesterday I started out with two reefs, and delayed going down to one when the wind abated because it was too much trouble dealing with the dreaded cutout. I have a foot of mast extrusion from Dwyer and plan to cut out a chunk that exactly fits the hole. I will presumably bond it to a larger curved piece of extrusion, and hold the assembly in place with nylon screws (so the hole will not enlarge with use). Jim Poulakis and others have different variations, so I am waiting to see how they did it. As nearly as I can tell, the cutout position is perfect for a boltrope, so this stock setup is versatile if one can gate the high opening. If I were ordering a new boat, however, I think I would opt for a custom opening below where I ride the boom.
I cannot safely do mast surgery on a mooring without dropping more tools overboard, but I will certainly pass along my experiences when I pull the boat for its winter rest and rehab (which is early at 7500') .
Tom Jenkins
On Sep 14, 2009, at 6:51 PM, Joe Murphy wrote:
Tom, When you find the solution for coming up with a gate to fill that % $#& cutout PLEAASE let me know. I just finished a 4 day 120 mile trip. I made a real simple reefing system that I could do completely from the cockpit but I had to go to the mast every time to futz around with the slot and the slugs. If that cutout had a gate I wouldn't have had any problems. But the way it is set up now, I procrastinate on making reefing changes. And heaven help me when I have to reef from the first to second. It's a strange design. I still can't figure out why the cut out is so high. Must be a bolt rope thing. Joe Seafrog M17
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 3:05 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: boom vang
Jim,
Within tolerances at E/P, we probably have the same sail. I will measure it today if the wind doesn't blow me off the boat.
Mind if I ask how you secure your reefing lines? I like cam cleats, but the boom is pretty small and roundy even for a Harken micro. I have also considered medium Ronstan V-cleats with leads, and 4" Schaefer jam cleats. Any could be made to work after a fashion, but I don't know if I have considered all the angles. Frankly, it is fun to do these mods, because little things can make the boats so user-friendly. The "big one" will be gating the cutout on the mast so I won't have to get on the deck and feed the sail slugs across it by hand.
Tom
On Sep 13, 2009, at 11:18 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
Just for reference: After surgery my final boom extrusion length came out to exactly 93.75". Again, this is just the aluminum extrusion without ANY end fittings on it. In retrospect, it could have been cut down to Jerry's 93" (7'9"). But in my case, that would have been a little too close for comfort. Your mainsail foot length may be different from mine.
By the way, that is exactly how I used my extra cheek block.
Jim
On Sep 13, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Your verbal description did the trick. There they are in catalogs and in my can of stainless fittings, but I never knew they had a special name. I will need a new location for the topping lift shackle, but your solution will work for me. I will even get a free block for my reefing system. Thanks again for your advice.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:17 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
A bow shackle is just like a U-shaped pin shackle except it is more rounded - like a horseshoe (I'll email you a picture of my setup tomorrow). The bow shackle itself doesn't do anything to adjust tension, it simply provides a "loop" to pass a few turns of 3/16" line through. The line runs through the bow shackle and the sail clew grommet a few times to give a purchase so it can be easily pulled taut (unlike the stock setup). It is then tied off in a reef knot. There's really nothing elegant about it. In fact, its the kind of simple, strong rigging that would look right at home on a 19th century fishing boat.
With the boom extrusion cut down to about 7'10" there simply isn't room for fancy outhaul fittings (not even a cheek block). The thing to consider carefully is the foot of YOUR particular sail. Pulled drum-taut, the clew of my stock EP main is left with over an inch to spare for old age stretch (Jerry M. recommended 1/2").
The actual surgery is really simple, but I went through a measure... think... measure... think... process that lasted over a month before I finally got the courage to cut into my brand-new boom. I'm happy with the result.
Jim
On Sep 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
> Jim, > > Thanks for the excellent information. > I did not known how high the boom should be set, but with > trial and error I coincidentally came up with exactly 19" > above the tabernacle base. My boom measures 8' 2.5" long from > the mast to the end of the aft fitting, or about 8' even > without fittings. This setup overlaps the backstay about an > inch if the boom rises, so trimming off 2.25" would be > perfect, with no drawbacks that I can foresee. I too prefer > to dispense with a vang if I can help it. > Incidentally, what is a "bow shackle" ? Your solution sounds > elegant, but I can't visualize a shackle that adjusts > tension. Maybe a small turnbuckle would also work. > > Tom Jenkins > > > > On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26 PM, James Poulakis wrote: > >> Tom, >> >> This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I >> think you said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the >> aluminum boom extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the >> end fittings). The newer boom extrusions are over 8' long >> and can hang up on the backstay. This is with the gooseneck >> correctly positioned at 19" off the deck (per Bob Eeg). >> >> My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it >> to barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut >> it down to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short >> to accommodate the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison >> mainsail. >> >> This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek >> block. I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the >> boom end fitting. I actually like this better because it >> gives me more control over the foot tension and is stronger >> and simpler. >> >> A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of >> trouble as well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway >> and I find that more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less >> time (and energy) for sailing. >> >> Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later >> rigs. So far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in >> light winds. >> >> Jim >> >> On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote: >> >>> I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. >>> I found that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the >>> fluky winds where I am sailing) can hang the boom in the >>> backstay if the main is single-reefed. I generally pull >>> the boom across by hand to cushion the shock of a gybe, so >>> the boom does not ride up, but big gusts can be >>> unpredictable if they are not touching the lake surface. >>> Anyway, a vang seemed unnecessary with the mainsheet in mid- >>> cockpit, but now think a small four- part might hold the >>> boom down enough to keep it clear of the backstay under >>> unusual conditions. Any thoughts? >>> >>> On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a >>> height that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from >>> the masthead. I tried raising the main to the top of the >>> slot, but the roach in my (presumably stock) Elliot- >>> Pattison main puts a good chunk of the sail--and the upper >>> batten--a few inches outside the backstay. Has anyone had >>> a broken batten or a hung sail during tacking with this >>> configuration? I prefer not to learn the hard way. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Tom Jenkins >>> 2004 M17 Scintilla >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >>> montgomery_boats >>> >>> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >> montgomery_boats >> >> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Joe I did indeed see the excellent photos. Since I am not much of a router guy, and already have a piece of the Dwyer extrusion with enough material for several plugs, I will probably try something with that first. The polyethylene material might be similar to "Marine Lumber" I bought from WM to mount a cleat. Unfortunately, if you don't need it for some other project, a chunk would cost more than the foot of extrusion I bought from Dwyer. Judgement call. Tom On Sep 16, 2009, at 2:14 PM, Joe Murphy wrote:
Hey Tom, Have you checked out how Jim Poulakis on "Spirit" made his mast gate out of "Seaboard"? He did a really neat job. I'm probably going to follow suit. Thanks for the followup. Joe Seafrog
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 12:12 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: boom vang
Joe,
I feel your pain! Yesterday I started out with two reefs, and delayed going down to one when the wind abated because it was too much trouble dealing with the dreaded cutout. I have a foot of mast extrusion from Dwyer and plan to cut out a chunk that exactly fits the hole. I will presumably bond it to a larger curved piece of extrusion, and hold the assembly in place with nylon screws (so the hole will not enlarge with use). Jim Poulakis and others have different variations, so I am waiting to see how they did it. As nearly as I can tell, the cutout position is perfect for a boltrope, so this stock setup is versatile if one can gate the high opening. If I were ordering a new boat, however, I think I would opt for a custom opening below where I ride the boom.
I cannot safely do mast surgery on a mooring without dropping more tools overboard, but I will certainly pass along my experiences when I pull the boat for its winter rest and rehab (which is early at 7500') .
Tom Jenkins
On Sep 14, 2009, at 6:51 PM, Joe Murphy wrote:
Tom, When you find the solution for coming up with a gate to fill that % $#& cutout PLEAASE let me know. I just finished a 4 day 120 mile trip. I made a real simple reefing system that I could do completely from the cockpit but I had to go to the mast every time to futz around with the slot and the slugs. If that cutout had a gate I wouldn't have had any problems. But the way it is set up now, I procrastinate on making reefing changes. And heaven help me when I have to reef from the first to second. It's a strange design. I still can't figure out why the cut out is so high. Must be a bolt rope thing. Joe Seafrog M17
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 3:05 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: boom vang
Jim,
Within tolerances at E/P, we probably have the same sail. I will measure it today if the wind doesn't blow me off the boat.
Mind if I ask how you secure your reefing lines? I like cam cleats, but the boom is pretty small and roundy even for a Harken micro. I have also considered medium Ronstan V-cleats with leads, and 4" Schaefer jam cleats. Any could be made to work after a fashion, but I don't know if I have considered all the angles. Frankly, it is fun to do these mods, because little things can make the boats so user-friendly. The "big one" will be gating the cutout on the mast so I won't have to get on the deck and feed the sail slugs across it by hand.
Tom
On Sep 13, 2009, at 11:18 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
Just for reference: After surgery my final boom extrusion length came out to exactly 93.75". Again, this is just the aluminum extrusion without ANY end fittings on it. In retrospect, it could have been cut down to Jerry's 93" (7'9"). But in my case, that would have been a little too close for comfort. Your mainsail foot length may be different from mine.
By the way, that is exactly how I used my extra cheek block.
Jim
On Sep 13, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Your verbal description did the trick. There they are in catalogs and in my can of stainless fittings, but I never knew they had a special name. I will need a new location for the topping lift shackle, but your solution will work for me. I will even get a free block for my reefing system. Thanks again for your advice.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:17 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
> Tom, > > A bow shackle is just like a U-shaped pin shackle except it is > more rounded - like a horseshoe (I'll email you a picture of > my setup tomorrow). The bow shackle itself doesn't do > anything to adjust tension, it simply provides a "loop" to > pass a few turns of 3/16" line through. The line runs through > the bow shackle and the sail clew grommet a few times to give > a purchase so it can be easily pulled taut (unlike the stock > setup). It is then tied off in a reef knot. There's really > nothing elegant about it. In fact, its the kind of simple, > strong rigging that would look right at home on a 19th century > fishing boat. > > With the boom extrusion cut down to about 7'10" there simply > isn't room for fancy outhaul fittings (not even a cheek > block). The thing to consider carefully is the foot of YOUR > particular sail. Pulled drum-taut, the clew of my stock EP > main is left with over an inch to spare for old age stretch > (Jerry M. recommended 1/2"). > > The actual surgery is really simple, but I went through a > measure... think... measure... think... process that lasted > over a month before I finally got the courage to cut into my > brand-new boom. I'm happy with the result. > > Jim > > On Sep 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote: > >> Jim, >> >> Thanks for the excellent information. >> I did not known how high the boom should be set, but with >> trial and error I coincidentally came up with exactly 19" >> above the tabernacle base. My boom measures 8' 2.5" long from >> the mast to the end of the aft fitting, or about 8' even >> without fittings. This setup overlaps the backstay about an >> inch if the boom rises, so trimming off 2.25" would be >> perfect, with no drawbacks that I can foresee. I too prefer >> to dispense with a vang if I can help it. >> Incidentally, what is a "bow shackle" ? Your solution sounds >> elegant, but I can't visualize a shackle that adjusts >> tension. Maybe a small turnbuckle would also work. >> >> Tom Jenkins >> >> >> >> On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26 PM, James Poulakis wrote: >> >>> Tom, >>> >>> This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I >>> think you said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the >>> aluminum boom extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the >>> end fittings). The newer boom extrusions are over 8' long >>> and can hang up on the backstay. This is with the gooseneck >>> correctly positioned at 19" off the deck (per Bob Eeg). >>> >>> My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it >>> to barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut >>> it down to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short >>> to accommodate the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison >>> mainsail. >>> >>> This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek >>> block. I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the >>> boom end fitting. I actually like this better because it >>> gives me more control over the foot tension and is stronger >>> and simpler. >>> >>> A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of >>> trouble as well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway >>> and I find that more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less >>> time (and energy) for sailing. >>> >>> Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later >>> rigs. So far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in >>> light winds. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote: >>> >>>> I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. >>>> I found that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the >>>> fluky winds where I am sailing) can hang the boom in the >>>> backstay if the main is single-reefed. I generally pull >>>> the boom across by hand to cushion the shock of a gybe, so >>>> the boom does not ride up, but big gusts can be >>>> unpredictable if they are not touching the lake surface. >>>> Anyway, a vang seemed unnecessary with the mainsheet in mid- >>>> cockpit, but now think a small four- part might hold the >>>> boom down enough to keep it clear of the backstay under >>>> unusual conditions. Any thoughts? >>>> >>>> On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a >>>> height that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from >>>> the masthead. I tried raising the main to the top of the >>>> slot, but the roach in my (presumably stock) Elliot- >>>> Pattison main puts a good chunk of the sail--and the upper >>>> batten--a few inches outside the backstay. Has anyone had >>>> a broken batten or a hung sail during tacking with this >>>> configuration? I prefer not to learn the hard way. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Tom Jenkins >>>> 2004 M17 Scintilla >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >>>> montgomery_boats >>>> >>>> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >>> montgomery_boats >>> >>> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >> montgomery_boats >> >> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Hello to M-boaters with this mast gate problem/solution. I am lucky to have a raw materials source here in Sacramento. It is called "Blue Collar Supply". Lots of things like Delrin and nylon sections of many shapes and sizes. Could something like a light color of Delrin work as a mast gate solution? I only occasionally see Teflon in the stacks. All the materials at this source are sold by the pound. Some stainless too, mostly nuts, bolts, washers. I use "NevaSeize" grease on 1/4" 20 bolts to prevent galling and seizing of the threads. ----LH. M-15 Sacramento. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Jenkins Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 5:34 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: boom vang Joe I did indeed see the excellent photos. Since I am not much of a router guy, and already have a piece of the Dwyer extrusion with enough material for several plugs, I will probably try something with that first. The polyethylene material might be similar to "Marine Lumber" I bought from WM to mount a cleat. Unfortunately, if you don't need it for some other project, a chunk would cost more than the foot of extrusion I bought from Dwyer. Judgement call. Tom On Sep 16, 2009, at 2:14 PM, Joe Murphy wrote:
Hey Tom, Have you checked out how Jim Poulakis on "Spirit" made his mast gate out of "Seaboard"? He did a really neat job. I'm probably going to follow suit. Thanks for the followup. Joe Seafrog
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 12:12 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: boom vang
Joe,
I feel your pain! Yesterday I started out with two reefs, and delayed going down to one when the wind abated because it was too much trouble dealing with the dreaded cutout. I have a foot of mast extrusion from Dwyer and plan to cut out a chunk that exactly fits the hole. I will presumably bond it to a larger curved piece of extrusion, and hold the assembly in place with nylon screws (so the hole will not enlarge with use). Jim Poulakis and others have different variations, so I am waiting to see how they did it. As nearly as I can tell, the cutout position is perfect for a boltrope, so this stock setup is versatile if one can gate the high opening. If I were ordering a new boat, however, I think I would opt
for a custom opening below where I ride the boom.
I cannot safely do mast surgery on a mooring without dropping more tools overboard, but I will certainly pass along my experiences when I pull the boat for its winter rest and rehab (which is early at 7500') .
Tom Jenkins
On Sep 14, 2009, at 6:51 PM, Joe Murphy wrote:
Tom, When you find the solution for coming up with a gate to fill that % $#& cutout PLEAASE let me know. I just finished a 4 day 120 mile trip. I made a real simple reefing system that I could do completely from the cockpit but I had to go to the mast every time to futz around with the slot and the slugs. If that cutout had a gate I wouldn't have had any problems. But the way it is set up now, I procrastinate on making reefing changes. And heaven help me when I have to reef from the first to second. It's a strange design. I still can't figure out why the cut out is so high. Must be a bolt rope thing. Joe Seafrog M17
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 3:05 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: boom vang
Jim,
Within tolerances at E/P, we probably have the same sail. I will measure it today if the wind doesn't blow me off the boat.
Mind if I ask how you secure your reefing lines? I like cam cleats, but the boom is pretty small and roundy even for a Harken micro. I have also considered medium Ronstan V-cleats with leads,
and 4" Schaefer jam cleats. Any could be made to work after a fashion, but I don't know if I have considered all the angles. Frankly, it is fun to do these mods, because little things can make
the boats so user-friendly. The "big one" will be gating the cutout on the mast so I won't have to get on the deck and feed the
sail slugs across it by hand.
Tom
On Sep 13, 2009, at 11:18 AM, James Poulakis wrote:
Tom,
Just for reference: After surgery my final boom extrusion length came out to exactly 93.75". Again, this is just the aluminum extrusion without ANY end fittings on it. In retrospect, it could have been cut down to
Jerry's 93" (7'9"). But in my case, that would have been a little
too close for comfort. Your mainsail foot length may be different
from mine.
By the way, that is exactly how I used my extra cheek block.
Jim
On Sep 13, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Your verbal description did the trick. There they are in catalogs and in my can of stainless fittings, but I never knew they had a special name. I will need a new location for the topping lift shackle, but your
solution will work for me. I will even get a free block for my reefing system. Thanks again for your advice.
Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:17 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
> Tom, > > A bow shackle is just like a U-shaped pin shackle except it is > more rounded - like a horseshoe (I'll email you a picture of my
> setup tomorrow). The bow shackle itself doesn't do anything to
> adjust tension, it simply provides a "loop" to pass a few turns
> of 3/16" line through. The line runs through the bow shackle and
> the sail clew grommet a few times to give a purchase so it can > be easily pulled taut (unlike the stock setup). It is then > tied off in a reef knot. There's really nothing elegant about > it. In fact, its the kind of simple, strong rigging that would
> look right at home on a 19th century fishing boat. > > With the boom extrusion cut down to about 7'10" there simply > isn't room for fancy outhaul fittings (not even a cheek > block). The thing to consider carefully is the foot of YOUR > particular sail. Pulled drum-taut, the clew of my stock EP > main is left with over an inch to spare for old age stretch > (Jerry M. recommended 1/2"). > > The actual surgery is really simple, but I went through a > measure... think... measure... think... process that lasted over
> a month before I finally got the courage to cut into my > brand-new boom. I'm happy with the result. > > Jim > > On Sep 12, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote: > >> Jim, >> >> Thanks for the excellent information. >> I did not known how high the boom should be set, but with trial
>> and error I coincidentally came up with exactly 19" >> above the tabernacle base. My boom measures 8' 2.5" long from >> the mast to the end of the aft fitting, or about 8' even >> without fittings. This setup overlaps the backstay about an >> inch if the boom rises, so trimming off 2.25" would be >> perfect, with no drawbacks that I can foresee. I too prefer >> to dispense with a vang if I can help it. >> Incidentally, what is a "bow shackle" ? Your solution sounds >> elegant, but I can't visualize a shackle that adjusts >> tension. Maybe a small turnbuckle would also work. >> >> Tom Jenkins >> >> >> >> On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26 PM, James Poulakis wrote: >> >>> Tom, >>> >>> This is another rigging oddity with late model M-17s (I think
>>> you said yours was a 2004). According to Jerry M. the >>> aluminum boom extrusions should be about 7'9" (without the >>> end fittings). The newer boom extrusions are over 8' long >>> and can hang up on the backstay. This is with the gooseneck >>> correctly positioned at 19" off the deck (per Bob Eeg). >>> >>> My solution was to cut 2-1/4" off the boom, which allows it to
>>> barely clear the backstay at all angles. I would have cut it
>>> down to Jerry's 7'9" but that would have been too short to >>> accommodate the foot of the now stock Elliot Pattison >>> mainsail. >>> >>> This mod also means doing away with the clew outhaul cheek >>> block. I now lash the clew to a bow shackle attached to the >>> boom end fitting. I actually like this better because it gives
>>> me more control over the foot tension and is stronger and >>> simpler. >>> >>> A properly tensioned boom vang should keep you out of trouble
>>> as well. However, Spirit is docked in my driveway and I find
>>> that more stuff to rig at the launch ramp = less time (and >>> energy) for sailing. >>> >>> Batten hang-ups are another common issue with the later >>> rigs. So far this has just been a minor annoyance for me in >>> light winds. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> On Sep 10, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Thomas Jenkins wrote: >>> >>>> I'm just a learner with my 17, so surprises still abound. >>>> I found that an accidental gybe (always a risk in the fluky
>>>> winds where I am sailing) can hang the boom in the backstay >>>> if the main is single-reefed. I generally pull the boom >>>> across by hand to cushion the shock of a gybe, so the boom >>>> does not ride up, but big gusts can be unpredictable if they
>>>> are not touching the lake surface. >>>> Anyway, a vang seemed unnecessary with the mainsheet in mid-
>>>> cockpit, but now think a small four- part might hold the boom
>>>> down enough to keep it clear of the backstay under unusual >>>> conditions. Any thoughts? >>>> >>>> On another sail subject, I arbitrarily set the boom at a >>>> height that put the head of the main maybe 6 inches from the
>>>> masthead. I tried raising the main to the top of the slot, >>>> but the roach in my (presumably stock) Elliot- Pattison main
>>>> puts a good chunk of the sail--and the upper batten--a few >>>> inches outside the backstay. Has anyone had a broken batten
>>>> or a hung sail during tacking with this configuration? I >>>> prefer not to learn the hard way. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Tom Jenkins >>>> 2004 M17 Scintilla >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >>>> montgomery_boats >>>> >>>> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >>> montgomery_boats >>> >>> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >> montgomery_boats >> >> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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participants (4)
-
Hughston, Larry -
James Poulakis -
Joe Murphy -
Thomas Jenkins