All,
There seems to a miscommunication. 

I posted a note a personal note from a friend of mine regarding the M's for sale in MO. I know firsthand how difficult it is to make a large purchase over many miles. I posted my friends comments about who I thought was the seller/representer in error. We were speaking of another individual. I have no reason to believe that the seller is of sound ethics. God know how difficult it must be to be in the boat business (ask Bob Eeg).

Out of sheer concern and helpfulness to fellow sailors we offered his time and effort to help any prospective buyer make an informed decision before investing time and travel in pursuit of a Montgomery, that is all. We are good people, good sailors. 
The downside of electronic messaging is the confusion that sometimes occurs.
My apologies.
Theo

Sent from my iPad


On Aug 18, 2013, at 2:03 PM, montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com wrote:

> Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Broken Mast Crutch on my M15! (stevetrapp)
>   2. Re: heavy air in an M15 (Bill Day)
>   3. Re: heavy air in an M15 (stevetrapp)
>   4. Re: heavy air in an M15 (Jack Zukowski)
>   5. Re: heavy air in an M15 (Daniel Rich)
>   6. Re: heavy air in an M15 (John Schinnerer)
>   7. Re: heavy air in an M15 (Daniel Rich)
>   8. Re: heavy air in an M15 (jerry montgomery)
>   9. Re: heavy air in an M15 (John Schinnerer)
>  10. intro (Chesley Sugg)
>  11. Re: Broken Mast Crutch on my M15! (Thomas Buzzi)
>  12. Re: heavy air in an M15 (Thomas Buzzi)
>  13. Re: heavy air in an M15 (Thomas Buzzi)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 20:57:02 -0700
> From: "stevetrapp" <stevetrapp@q.com>
> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats"
>    <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Broken Mast Crutch on my M15!
> Message-ID: <25511A3AFE8F4F1194D34D9A9549F297@STEVEEW>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Daniel,
>    I took my broken mast crutch and pintle into a welding shop and had it repaired for just a few $, which I think it continues to work better than whatever I might have built at home.
> Steve
> M-15 # 335
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com>
> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 4:19 PM
> Subject: M_Boats: Broken Mast Crutch on my M15!
> 
> 
> Montypals:
> 
> I got home after sailing today and noticed that my mast crutch had broken! One of the welds broke at the gudgeon. So, I need to replace it somehow. It is a metal one that came with the boat. I'm thinking that building a wood one would make some sense here. Anybody got plans for one? How would I attach some kind of pintles at the bottom? Should I just use bolts down there somehow? Any thoughts greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
> Daniel Rich
> M15 #208 "Kestrel"
> danielgrich@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 21:02:11 -0700
> From: Bill Day <bill@gotrain.org>
> To: Stan Susman <stanpfa@pacbell.net>, For and about Montgomery
>    Sailboats    <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
> Message-ID:
>    <CABVZyiMwOOrDqrJkj-3UJ-+iTy4Z3JMr34uR-jayr-RJF+T69Q@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Most of Tomales bay is pretty shallow, and has lots of seaweed and kelp to
> get tangled in, but it's a fun place to sail.
> 
> Bill Day
> M-15 363 "Gee Whiz!"
> 
> 
> On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Stan Susman <stanpfa@pacbell.net> wrote:
> 
>> Daniel,
>> Is Tomales bay as shallow as it looks?
>> Inquiring minds want to know
>> Stan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com>
>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <
>> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 8:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
>> 
>> 
>> Very interesting.
>> 
>> Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for
>> you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could
>> have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
>> 
>> Daniel
>> On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Daniel,
>>>          I have been faced with the same situation many times and have
>> tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had
>> never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change
>> under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at
>> times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef
>> the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at
>> how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but
>> that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more
>> relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph
>> on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and
>> main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it
>> refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but
>> my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it
>> out many
>> times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times
>> waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
>>> 
>>> Jack Zukowski in Connecticut
>>> Still no name...2010 M-15
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Montypals:
>>>> 
>>>> Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15
>> boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales
>> like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double
>> reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at
>> least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15
>> stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it
>> was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the
>> point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to
>> windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to
>> the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty
>> good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I
>> figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress
>> to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused
>> jib? I
>> needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I
>> don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going
>> on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't
>> heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a
>> challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so
>> that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I
>> was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have
>> anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited
>> it out.
>>>> 
>>>> I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me
>> safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring
>> more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2
>> full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an
>> important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A
>> learning experience today.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Daniel Rich
>>>> M15 #208 "Kestrel"
>>>> danielgrich@gmail.com
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 21:06:03 -0700
> From: "stevetrapp" <stevetrapp@q.com>
> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats"
>    <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
> Message-ID: <69D40B9C13F74403BC72A541DADA788F@STEVEEW>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
>    I have been told that the key to when to fly a storm jib, or when to reef the main, "If you think you should do it, it is time to do it."
> Steve
> M-15 # 335
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com>
> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 8:11 PM
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
> 
> 
> Very interesting.
> 
> Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
> 
> Daniel
> On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hello Daniel,
>>          I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and
> had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
>> 
>> Jack Zukowski in Connecticut
>> Still no name...2010 M-15
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Montypals:
>>> 
>>> Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind
> to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out. 
>>> 
>>> I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Daniel Rich
>>> M15 #208 "Kestrel"
>>> danielgrich@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 00:48:33 -0400
> From: Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com>
> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats
>    <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
> Message-ID: <0A21D015-C6A5-47DA-9D7B-4ADAE53E6D97@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> Hello again Daniel,
>             The storm jib came with the m-15 when I bought it. I believe it is from the same sail maker that did the main and working jib, but without looking I can't swear to that. From my limited experience with the storm jib I would now fly it at anything over 15 mph winds. It just makes it easier. I didn't panic as I usually do when the wind gusted up. I am not a racer, I just enjoy going out and having a good day with enough time on my hands to drink a beer or two! The storm jib gave me that time.! All in all I was able to relax a lot more and I really do feel that the boat pointed better for me and I also feel that sailing with just the main is not an issue at all. The m-15 handles wonderfully with just the main out there. I don't want to be out there when the winds are exceeding  25 mph but sometime we have no choice. At 70 years old I don't like to be fighting for my life and sometime I think I am! I'll be out there tomorrow bitchin' there ain't  enough wind, and the next
> day afraid to launch because there is too much wind!  But I aways go! I feel the m-15 is the bmw of small sailboats, they do handle so beautifully .
> 
> Jack
> 2010 m-15
> 
> 
> On Aug 17, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Very interesting.
>> 
>> Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
>> 
>> Daniel
>> On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Daniel,
>>>         I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and
> had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
>>> 
>>> Jack Zukowski in Connecticut
>>> Still no name...2010 M-15
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Montypals:
>>>> 
>>>> Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind
> to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out. 
>>>> 
>>>> I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Daniel Rich
>>>> M15 #208 "Kestrel"
>>>> danielgrich@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 22:05:13 -0700
> From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com>
> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats
>    <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
> Message-ID: <FD875C0E-C6A9-4915-9398-C372C09E53D8@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> In many parts it is quite shallow. Indeed, I have to time the tides just to launch and retrieve. Some parts are pretty deep. I don't go out the mouth into Bodega Bay. That section is really shallow, and waves break there. Every year fishermen drown there.
> 
> Daniel
> On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:40 PM, Stan Susman <stanpfa@pacbell.net> wrote:
> 
>> Daniel, 
>> Is Tomales bay as shallow as it looks?
>> Inquiring minds want to know
>> Stan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com>
>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> 
>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 8:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
>> 
>> 
>> Very interesting.
>> 
>> Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
>> 
>> Daniel
>> On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Daniel,
>>>           I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many
>> times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
>>> 
>>> Jack Zukowski in Connecticut
>>> Still no name...2010 M-15
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Montypals:
>>>> 
>>>> Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I
>> needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out. 
>>>> 
>>>> I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Daniel Rich
>>>> M15 #208 "Kestrel"
>>>> danielgrich@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 09:16:02 -0700
> From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>
> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats
>    <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
> Message-ID: <5210F342.2040206@eco-living.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Aloha,
> 
> That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15.
> Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
> 
> I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry 
> ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it 
> was wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
> 
> Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even 
> with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at 
> that point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of 
> swamping or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly 
> solid as a rock.
> 
> I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a 
> while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens 
> the forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than 
> it would otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down 
> some, which needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the 
> forestay...and so on.
>  In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to 
> drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with 
> the standard jib.
> Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this 
> problem goes away?
> 
> cheers,
> John S.
> 
> On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
>> Montypals:
>> 
>> Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in
>> M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove
>> Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I
>> eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts
>> must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were
>> quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding
>> down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I
>> definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with
>> the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I
>> needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the
>> windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel
>> pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this
>> point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to
>> make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at
>> all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so
>> pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did,
>> I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and
>> hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped
>> the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy
>> waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat
>> would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was
>> worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would
>> have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore,
>> and waited it out.
>> 
>> I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me
>> safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to
>> bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be
>> about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the
>> anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just
>> this reason. A learning experience today.
>> 
>> 
>> Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
> 
> -- 
> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
> --------------------------------------------
> - Eco-Living -
> Whole Systems Design Services
> People - Place - Learning - Integration
> john@eco-living.net
> http://eco-living.net
> http://sociocracyconsulting.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 10:17:45 -0700
> From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com>
> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats
>    <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
> Message-ID: <AFC5F864-D432-4A4F-B321-A8A542488F6D@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> I looked on Sailflow for yesterday, and at Nick's at the time of our difficulties it was blowing gusts to 24 knots. That would explain some of our problems for sure. 
> 
> Going forward I will get a tiller extension so that I can sit on the gunnel and forward, and replace the sails! Given where I sail I may want the sails cut a bit flatter than usual. I'll discuss with my sail guy.
> 
> Daniel
> On Aug 18, 2013, at 9:16 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
> 
>> Aloha,
>> 
>> That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15.
>> Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
>> 
>> I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it was wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
>> 
>> Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at that point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of swamping or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly solid as a rock.
>> 
>> I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens the forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than it would otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down some, which needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the forestay...and so on.
>> In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with the standard jib.
>> Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this problem goes away?
>> 
>> cheers,
>> John S.
>> 
>> On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
>>> Montypals:
>>> 
>>> Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in
>>> M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove
>>> Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I
>>> eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts
>>> must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were
>>> quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding
>>> down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I
>>> definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with
>>> the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I
>>> needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the
>>> windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel
>>> pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this
>>> point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to
>>> make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at
>>> all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so
>>> pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did,
>>> I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and
>>> hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped
>>> the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy
>>> waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat
>>> would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was
>>> worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would
>>> have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore,
>>> and waited it out.
>>> 
>>> I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me
>>> safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to
>>> bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be
>>> about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the
>>> anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just
>>> this reason. A learning experience today.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
>> 
>> -- 
>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
>> --------------------------------------------
>> - Eco-Living -
>> Whole Systems Design Services
>> People - Place - Learning - Integration
>> john@eco-living.net
>> http://eco-living.net
>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 10:22:20 -0700
> From: "jerry montgomery" <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org>
> To: <john@eco-living.net>, "For and about Montgomery Sailboats"
>    <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
> Message-ID: <B4BA15938B734503A9E1C26C266D0174@jerryws10>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>    reply-type=response
> 
> I think you got that figured out correctly, John.  A storm jib does't need 
> anywhere as much forestay tension to keep it from sagging, which  makes it 
> fuller.  The forestay tension comes from the mainsheet tension, so when you 
> ease the main in a puff to keep the boat from rounding up it lets the 
> forestay sag off.
> 
> Probably an intermediate jib, maybe about 60%, would be a great sail for a 
> 15 in marginal conditions- more poop than a storm jib and save a lot of wear 
> and tear on the working jib.
> 
> jerry
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net>
> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" 
> <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
> 
> 
>> Aloha,
>> 
>> That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15.
>> Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
>> 
>> I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry 
>> ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it was 
>> wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
>> 
>> Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even 
>> with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at that 
>> point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of swamping 
>> or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly solid as a 
>> rock.
>> 
>> I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a while, 
>> regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens the 
>> forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than it 
>> would otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down some, 
>> which needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the 
>> forestay...and so on.
>> In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to 
>> drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with 
>> the standard jib.
>> Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this problem 
>> goes away?
>> 
>> cheers,
>> John S.
>> 
>> On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
>>> Montypals:
>>> 
>>> Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in
>>> M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove
>>> Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I
>>> eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts
>>> must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were
>>> quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding
>>> down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I
>>> definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with
>>> the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I
>>> needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the
>>> windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel
>>> pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this
>>> point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to
>>> make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at
>>> all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so
>>> pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did,
>>> I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and
>>> hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped
>>> the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy
>>> waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat
>>> would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was
>>> worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would
>>> have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore,
>>> and waited it out.
>>> 
>>> I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me
>>> safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to
>>> bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be
>>> about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the
>>> anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just
>>> this reason. A learning experience today.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
>> 
>> -- 
>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
>> --------------------------------------------
>> - Eco-Living -
>> Whole Systems Design Services
>> People - Place - Learning - Integration
>> john@eco-living.net
>> http://eco-living.net
>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 12:31:06 -0700
> From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>
> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats
>    <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
> Message-ID: <521120FA.3010706@eco-living.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Woo hoo!
> No wonder my hat brim was flapping... :-)
> 
> Also want to give props to Daniel for being well prepared, knowing his
> boat and its capabilities and knowing the typical and potential ups and 
> downs and gotchas of the location (Tomales Bay).
> 
> cheers,
> John S.
> 
> 
> On 08/18/2013 10:17 AM, Daniel Rich wrote:
>> I looked on Sailflow for yesterday, and at Nick's at the time of our
>> difficulties it was blowing gusts to 24 knots. That would explain
>> some of our problems for sure.
>> 
>> Going forward I will get a tiller extension so that I can sit on the
>> gunnel and forward, and replace the sails! Given where I sail I may
>> want the sails cut a bit flatter than usual. I'll discuss with my
>> sail guy.
>> 
>> Daniel On Aug 18, 2013, at 9:16 AM, John Schinnerer
>> <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Aloha,
>>> 
>>> That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an
>>> M15. Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
>>> 
>>> I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly
>>> dry ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got
>>> splashed it was wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
>>> 
>>> Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts
>>> even with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much
>>> sail at that point), I was never actually worried that the boat was
>>> at risk of swamping or capsizing, and the hull (and deck)
>>> construction was clearly solid as a rock.
>>> 
>>> I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a
>>> while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust
>>> softens the forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches
>>> more wind than it would otherwise when falling off, which leads to
>>> getting blown down some, which needs rounding up to avoid more
>>> blow-down, which softens the forestay...and so on. In the windiest
>>> part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to drop sails
>>> and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with the
>>> standard jib. Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough
>>> sail that this problem goes away?
>>> 
>>> cheers, John S.
>>> 
>>> On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
>>>> Montypals:
>>>> 
>>>> Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested
>>>> in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of
>>>> Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as
>>>> it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working
>>>> jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the
>>>> wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry
>>>> despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was
>>>> really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got
>>>> to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make
>>>> progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I
>>>> was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to
>>>> point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move
>>>> forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could
>>>> douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward
>>>> that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused
>>>> jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was
>>>> important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would
>>>> not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting
>>>> it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the
>>>> sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy
>>>> waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the
>>>> boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I
>>>> was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I
>>>> would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on
>>>> the shore, and waited it out.
>>>> 
>>>> I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep
>>>> me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make
>>>> sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and
>>>> noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about
>>>> it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on
>>>> board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
>>> -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole
>>> Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration
>>> john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net
>>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com
> 
> -- 
> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
> --------------------------------------------
> - Eco-Living -
> Whole Systems Design Services
> People - Place - Learning - Integration
> john@eco-living.net
> http://eco-living.net
> http://sociocracyconsulting.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 10
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 16:46:10 -0400
> From: Chesley Sugg <csugg@mindspring.com>
> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats
>    <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Subject: M_Boats: intro
> Message-ID: <BA44C13E-9E88-4DF6-AA87-9BF3D8B65D4A@mindspring.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> I'm Chesley Sugg from Raleigh, NC.  I'm coming from about 20 years of power boating. Mainly a small trawler. I just lost joy in motoring around and decided that I need to pull some strings to keep things interesting.
> 
> I just purchased M-15 #153. It's kept at Blackbeard Sailing Club on the Neuse River down in New Bern, NC.  It's been my great luck to have been able to contact Mike Murphy, a M15 owner who lives in New Bern. Mike has been MORE that gracious in his help.  If all, or even most, of M boat owners are that way, I have found a wonderful home. Thanks Mike!
> 
> I can relate to the overpowering of the boat. When I first sailed her, now named "Mouse", It was blowing at least 12 with gust to 17. The boat scared me. I used the standard jib and had no reefing capability. Man, I could barely control the boat. I had a huge amount of Lee helm. I could only tack by backing the jib. The rig was set up very lose. Since them, Mike has helped to adjust the rig and I'm added reefing lines.
> 
> It's going well but I have a problem that I hope someone can help with. My rudder assembly had no way to raise the rudder. I have replicated Mike's internal raising system with a 13" rod (hole to hole) and two fittings as per his rudder. I can only get the rudder to raise to about 45 deg. The rod then hits the upper pintle bolt and won't go further. Is this normal?
> 
> Thanks for such a useful forum. I hope to be here for a time to come.
> 
> Best,
> Chesley Sugg
> M-15 "Mouse"
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 11
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 15:48:36 -0500
> From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com>
> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats
>    <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Broken Mast Crutch on my M15!
> Message-ID:
>    <CA+TbpAUKLqtzsd9GkvdBSKtQoaSaLD+r8LwMQ76cPB8cVhn0BQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> I used a piece of 2x4. I didn't gussy it up any and it still worked. Just
> cut a v-notch in the top of it and used a couple of "L" shaped bolts such
> that the end of the "L" that didn't have screw type threads on it pointed
> downwards. Those slipped into the existing gudgeons on the transom.  The
> mast rested in the v cut and was held down by some shock cord. Worked for
> all the time I had the boat, about 4 years back then. Never did get to
> making it look pretty.
> Tom B
> M17 #258
> 
> 
> On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Montypals:
>> 
>> I got home after sailing today and noticed that my mast crutch had broken!
>> One of the welds broke at the gudgeon. So, I need to replace it somehow. It
>> is a metal one that came with the boat. I'm thinking that building a wood
>> one would make some sense here. Anybody got plans for one? How would I
>> attach some kind of pintles at the bottom? Should I just use bolts down
>> there somehow? Any thoughts greatly appreciated!
>> 
>> 
>> Daniel Rich
>> M15 #208 "Kestrel"
>> danielgrich@gmail.com
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 12
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 15:56:31 -0500
> From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com>
> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats
>    <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
> Message-ID:
>    <CA+TbpAUvhtAp=RskQZQFnduBbcNKX5CxLyCY916D_j0MOzXnPA@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Guess I better check to make sure I do have a storm jib for my 17'. All the
> time I have had it I did not think that perhaps a storm jib would be the
> ticket for beating to windward in 25+ knot headwinds. Interesting.
> Tom B
> M-17 #258
> 
> 
> On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hello again Daniel,
>>             The storm jib came with the m-15 when I bought it. I believe
>> it is from the same sail maker that did the main and working jib, but
>> without looking I can't swear to that. From my limited experience with the
>> storm jib I would now fly it at anything over 15 mph winds. It just makes
>> it easier. I didn't panic as I usually do when the wind gusted up. I am not
>> a racer, I just enjoy going out and having a good day with enough time on
>> my hands to drink a beer or two! The storm jib gave me that time.! All in
>> all I was able to relax a lot more and I really do feel that the boat
>> pointed better for me and I also feel that sailing with just the main is
>> not an issue at all. The m-15 handles wonderfully with just the main out
>> there. I don't want to be out there when the winds are exceeding  25 mph
>> but sometime we have no choice. At 70 years old I don't like to be fighting
>> for my life and sometime I think I am! I'll be out there tomorrow bitchin'
>> there ain't  enough wind, and the next day afraid to launch because there
>> is too much wind!  But I aways go! I feel the m-15 is the bmw of small
>> sailboats, they do handle so beautifully .
>> 
>> Jack
>> 2010 m-15
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 17, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Very interesting.
>>> 
>>> Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for
>> you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could
>> have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
>>> 
>>> Daniel
>>> On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello Daniel,
>>>>         I have been faced with the same situation many times and have
>> tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had
>> never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change
>> under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at
>> times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef
>> the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at
>> how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but
>> that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more
>> relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph
>> on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and
>> main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it
>> refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but
>> my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it
>> out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many
>> times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
>>>> 
>>>> Jack Zukowski in Connecticut
>>>> Still no name...2010 M-15
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Montypals:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15
>> boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales
>> like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double
>> reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at
>> least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15
>> stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it
>> was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the
>> point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to
>> windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to
>> the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty
>> good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I
>> figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress
>> to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused
>> jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important.
>> I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going
>> on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't
>> heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a
>> challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so
>> that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I
>> was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have
>> anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited
>> it out.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me
>> safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring
>> more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2
>> full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an
>> important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A
>> learning experience today.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Daniel Rich
>>>>> M15 #208 "Kestrel"
>>>>> danielgrich@gmail.com
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 13
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 16:02:08 -0500
> From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com>
> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats
>    <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
> Message-ID:
>    <CA+TbpAWY+3zpyrpYDnJASz7v4d9Jjm3kQ++Zoe=2=GRHc9AsUQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Jerry,
> Would you advise a 60% jib for a 17 or does the backstay setup change the
> requirements. I sail in 18+ knot winds a lot. Would flatter sails be of use
> in an M17? Would they not have enough power in lighter air at that point?
> Fair winds,
> Tom B
> #258
> 
> 
> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 12:22 PM, jerry montgomery <
> jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
> 
>> I think you got that figured out correctly, John.  A storm jib does't need
>> anywhere as much forestay tension to keep it from sagging, which  makes it
>> fuller.  The forestay tension comes from the mainsheet tension, so when you
>> ease the main in a puff to keep the boat from rounding up it lets the
>> forestay sag off.
>> 
>> Probably an intermediate jib, maybe about 60%, would be a great sail for a
>> 15 in marginal conditions- more poop than a storm jib and save a lot of
>> wear and tear on the working jib.
>> 
>> jerry
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net>
>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.**
>> xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
>> 
>> 
>> Aloha,
>>> 
>>> That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15.
>>> Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
>>> 
>>> I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry
>>> ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it was
>>> wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
>>> 
>>> Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even
>>> with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at that
>>> point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of swamping
>>> or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly solid as a
>>> rock.
>>> 
>>> I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a
>>> while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens the
>>> forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than it would
>>> otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down some, which
>>> needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the forestay...and
>>> so on.
>>> In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to
>>> drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with
>>> the standard jib.
>>> Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this
>>> problem goes away?
>>> 
>>> cheers,
>>> John S.
>>> 
>>> On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Montypals:
>>>> 
>>>> Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in
>>>> M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove
>>>> Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I
>>>> eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts
>>>> must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were
>>>> quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding
>>>> down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I
>>>> definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with
>>>> the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I
>>>> needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the
>>>> windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel
>>>> pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this
>>>> point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to
>>>> make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at
>>>> all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so
>>>> pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did,
>>>> I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and
>>>> hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped
>>>> the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy
>>>> waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat
>>>> would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was
>>>> worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would
>>>> have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore,
>>>> and waited it out.
>>>> 
>>>> I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me
>>>> safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to
>>>> bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be
>>>> about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the
>>>> anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just
>>>> this reason. A learning experience today.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
>>> --
>>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
>>> ------------------------------**--------------
>>> - Eco-Living -
>>> Whole Systems Design Services
>>> People - Place - Learning - Integration
>>> john@eco-living.net
>>> http://eco-living.net
>>> http://sociocracyconsulting.**com <http://sociocracyconsulting.com>
> 
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> End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 126, Issue 7
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