Hello, all! I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. Nice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide beam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and sail. But... My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as Tomales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 looks terrific. So, a few questions: 1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but gotta ask. 2) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, or better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as I live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before considering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and like to think I would be good company... 3) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new one. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and straightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one? Thanks so much for your help! Daniel Rich
Rich, Nice to have you aboard!! The M boats are an excellent vessel. I too was looking at the WWP before I discovered the M-15. My biggest reason for choosing the Montgomery over the WWP was stability and construction. If you look closely at the hull design of the WWP you will see a flat bottom boat with steep sides. When heeling over, you can only heel so much before you reach the point of no return and then you end up swimming. With the design of the M boats, the hull is round and can heel over much further. Shortly after I acquired my M-15 I had the chance to prove that point, by accident of course!!! My main sheet became jammed and I was unable to release it when a strong gust of wind hit. I ended up scooping up water over the combing before I was able to release the sheet. Once released, the boat popped right up and the water in the cockpit emptied quickly. Except for my feet, I stayed dry. I would not have stayed dry in a WWP. The M boats are well designed, strong, and well built. Finding a used one is a challenge and here on the east coast it's even more of a challenge. If you are looking to buy new and have the time to invest, you might consider looking into the new Sage 17. This boat is being designed by Jerry Montgomery who worked with Lyle Hess and designed and built the M-15, M-17 and M-23. There are a lot of owners here that are biting at the bit to get a look at this new boat!!! As good as the M-boats are, this boat promises to be better. I don't have all the details, but in a nut shell, you take all the quality of workmanship and design of the M-boats and you tweak it slightly making improvements over the previous design. For example, the ratio of cabin space vs cockpit space. Maybe a little more headroom in the cockpit. Jerry came to the M-boat community for suggestions for improving his previous design. I don't remember any conversations concerning major design changes. Individual owners just made suggestions on little changes that they thought would improve the creature comforts of this fine boat. Of course, everyone wanted a faster boat, and Jerry is known for going fast!!! If you are looking for more details, I'm sure there is someone here who would be willing to talk with you 'off-line' if you are interested. M-boats do become available, you just have to be patient. I was able to find a boat in less than 6 months in KY. I bought it at the end of the sailing season (October) and spent the winter 'playing' with it before I launched it in the spring. My boat was built by Jerry in 1982 and it looks as good today as it did in 1982. If I lived on the west coast I'd invite you to sail. Not to worry though, someone will take you out. This is a very friendly community and everyone is willing to share ideas and give their opinions. There is never a shortage of 'free opinions' around here!! lol. Good luck with you quest and I wish you much success. Skip Campion M-15 #201 1982 Wild Guppy -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:26 am Subject: M_Boats: Considering an M 15 Hello, all! I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. ice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide eam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and ail. But... My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as omales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 ooks terrific. So, a few questions: 1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but otta ask. ) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, r better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before onsidering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and ike to think I would be good company... ) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new ne. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and traightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one? Thanks so much for your help! Daniel Rich ______________________________________________ ttp://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Daniel, After I sold my last boat, I contacted Bob Eeg to purchase a M17. I found him very easy to deal with. He delivered a super quality product. He gave me a lot of good advice on selecting various options (some of which actually saved me money!!) The boat was completed and delivered in about 8 weeks. There were only minor time delays due to his suppliers but he kept me up to date. Plus we stayed right on budget. In the two years that I've owned SeaFrog, I've put a lot of personal touches and as a result have been over this boat from stem to stern and am always impressed with its quality and craftsmanship. I'm not the most advanced sailor out there but this boat is a real confidence builder. The folks on these user groups have provided me a wealth of information (and great stories..) Joe Seafrog M17 #651 -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:26 am Subject: M_Boats: Considering an M 15 Hello, all! I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. ice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide eam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and ail. But... My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as omales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 ooks terrific. So, a few questions: 1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but otta ask. ) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, r better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before onsidering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and ike to think I would be good company... ) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new ne. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and traightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one? Thanks so much for your help! Daniel Rich ______________________________________________ ttp://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Ya, What in God's name are you waiting for? If you have an opportunity to buy new from Bob, just DO IT. You won't go fast but you will go far. I have an old 1981 Monty and I love it. Classic lines and no fear or second thoughts about how she feels on a broad reach. The M-15 is perfectly scaled down version of the M-17 and can be towed by a smallish car. I went and had a transmission cooler installed a few years ago...mostly just for the peace of mind. When I picked up this used Monty in Ridgecrest (think Mojave Desert and Edwards Air Force area) I arrived back in Sacramento with brown transmission fluid. (also dropped the hitch off the ball on the way back, the chains held! That left a few pucker marks. Problem: The nut under the hitch had not been tightened so pay attention to that system. To continue, I have done some rehab over the years and had to have the CB replaced (normal for a used Monty) and some other cosmetic items. Easy boat to care for and easy to self launch with some practice. Take someone with you on your first outings. Ask Bob about how much rake to set into the mast. Suggest you think about running your sheets, jib halyard and a jib downhaul back to cockpit for single handing. ---Fair winds sir. ---Larry in Sacramento with Old M-15 189 (built by Jerry Montgomery) -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Murphy Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:31 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Considering an M 15 Daniel, After I sold my last boat, I contacted Bob Eeg to purchase a M17. I found him very easy to deal with. He delivered a super quality product. He gave me a lot of good advice on selecting various options (some of which actually saved me money!!) The boat was completed and delivered in about 8 weeks. There were only minor time delays due to his suppliers but he kept me up to date. Plus we stayed right on budget. In the two years that I've owned SeaFrog, I've put a lot of personal touches and as a result have been over this boat from stem to stern and am always impressed with its quality and craftsmanship. I'm not the most advanced sailor out there but this boat is a real confidence builder. The folks on these user groups have provided me a wealth of information (and great stories..) Joe Seafrog M17 #651 -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:26 am Subject: M_Boats: Considering an M 15 Hello, all! I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. ice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide eam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and ail. But... My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as omales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 ooks terrific. So, a few questions: 1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but otta ask. ) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, r better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before onsidering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and ike to think I would be good company... ) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new ne. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and traightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one? Thanks so much for your help! Daniel Rich ______________________________________________ ttp://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Great info. I can definitely buy new, and likely will when I decide about this. Thanks! Daniel On 7/14/2010 7:52 AM, Hughston, Larry wrote:
Ya, What in God's name are you waiting for? If you have an opportunity to buy new from Bob, just DO IT. You won't go fast but you will go far.
I have an old 1981 Monty and I love it. Classic lines and no fear or second thoughts about how she feels on a broad reach. The M-15 is perfectly scaled down version of the M-17 and can be towed by a smallish car. I went and had a transmission cooler installed a few years ago...mostly just for the peace of mind. When I picked up this used Monty in Ridgecrest (think Mojave Desert and Edwards Air Force area) I arrived back in Sacramento with brown transmission fluid. (also dropped the hitch off the ball on the way back, the chains held! That left a few pucker marks. Problem: The nut under the hitch had not been tightened so pay attention to that system.
To continue, I have done some rehab over the years and had to have the CB replaced (normal for a used Monty) and some other cosmetic items. Easy boat to care for and easy to self launch with some practice. Take someone with you on your first outings. Ask Bob about how much rake to set into the mast. Suggest you think about running your sheets, jib halyard and a jib downhaul back to cockpit for single handing. ---Fair winds sir.
---Larry in Sacramento with Old M-15 189 (built by Jerry Montgomery)
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Murphy Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:31 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Daniel, After I sold my last boat, I contacted Bob Eeg to purchase a M17. I found him very easy to deal with. He delivered a super quality product. He gave me a lot of good advice on selecting various options (some of which actually saved me money!!) The boat was completed and delivered in about 8 weeks. There were only minor time delays due to his suppliers but he kept me up to date. Plus we stayed right on budget. In the two years that I've owned SeaFrog, I've put a lot of personal touches and as a result have been over this boat from stem to stern and am always impressed with its quality and craftsmanship. I'm not the most advanced sailor out there but this boat is a real confidence builder. The folks on these user groups have provided me a wealth of information (and great stories..)
Joe Seafrog M17 #651
-----Original Message----- From: Daniel Rich<danielgrich@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:26 am Subject: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Hello, all! I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. ice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide eam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and ail. But... My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as omales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 ooks terrific. So, a few questions: 1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but otta ask. ) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, r better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before onsidering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and ike to think I would be good company... ) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new ne. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and traightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one? Thanks so much for your help! Daniel Rich ______________________________________________ ttp://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Thank you. That is useful information. Daniel On 7/14/2010 7:31 AM, Joe Murphy wrote:
Daniel, After I sold my last boat, I contacted Bob Eeg to purchase a M17. I found him very easy to deal with. He delivered a super quality product. He gave me a lot of good advice on selecting various options (some of which actually saved me money!!) The boat was completed and delivered in about 8 weeks. There were only minor time delays due to his suppliers but he kept me up to date. Plus we stayed right on budget. In the two years that I've owned SeaFrog, I've put a lot of personal touches and as a result have been over this boat from stem to stern and am always impressed with its quality and craftsmanship. I'm not the most advanced sailor out there but this boat is a real confidence builder. The folks on these user groups have provided me a wealth of information (and great stories..)
Joe Seafrog M17 #651
-----Original Message----- From: Daniel Rich<danielgrich@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:26 am Subject: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Hello, all! I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. ice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide eam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and ail. But... My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as omales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 ooks terrific. So, a few questions: 1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but otta ask. ) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, r better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before onsidering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and ike to think I would be good company... ) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new ne. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and traightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one? Thanks so much for your help! Daniel Rich ______________________________________________ ttp://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Really interesting information. Would love to see the details of the Sage 17, but I suspect it will take time for that to develop. Furthermore, I would expect a 17 footer to be just a bit outside of the weight considerations for me. I want the boat and trailer to be under 1000 lbs if I can, so that I can tow with my Honda Accord V6. Arbitrary I know, but seems good to me. I imagine the Sage 17 will weigh closer to the Montgomery 17 weight, but I am just guessing... Daniel On 7/14/2010 5:36 AM, wcampion@aol.com wrote:
Rich,
Nice to have you aboard!! The M boats are an excellent vessel. I too was looking at the WWP before I discovered the M-15. My biggest reason for choosing the Montgomery over the WWP was stability and construction. If you look closely at the hull design of the WWP you will see a flat bottom boat with steep sides. When heeling over, you can only heel so much before you reach the point of no return and then you end up swimming. With the design of the M boats, the hull is round and can heel over much further. Shortly after I acquired my M-15 I had the chance to prove that point, by accident of course!!! My main sheet became jammed and I was unable to release it when a strong gust of wind hit. I ended up scooping up water over the combing before I was able to release the sheet. Once released, the boat popped right up and the water in the cockpit emptied quickly. Except for my feet, I stayed dry. I would not have stayed dry in a WWP.
The M boats are well designed, strong, and well built. Finding a used one is a challenge and here on the east coast it's even more of a challenge. If you are looking to buy new and have the time to invest, you might consider looking into the new Sage 17. This boat is being designed by Jerry Montgomery who worked with Lyle Hess and designed and built the M-15, M-17 and M-23. There are a lot of owners here that are biting at the bit to get a look at this new boat!!! As good as the M-boats are, this boat promises to be better. I don't have all the details, but in a nut shell, you take all the quality of workmanship and design of the M-boats and you tweak it slightly making improvements over the previous design. For example, the ratio of cabin space vs cockpit space. Maybe a little more headroom in the cockpit. Jerry came to the M-boat community for suggestions for improving his previous design. I don't remember any conversations concerning major design changes. Individual owners just made suggestions on little changes that they thought would improve the creature comforts of this fine boat. Of course, everyone wanted a faster boat, and Jerry is known for going fast!!!
If you are looking for more details, I'm sure there is someone here who would be willing to talk with you 'off-line' if you are interested. M-boats do become available, you just have to be patient. I was able to find a boat in less than 6 months in KY. I bought it at the end of the sailing season (October) and spent the winter 'playing' with it before I launched it in the spring. My boat was built by Jerry in 1982 and it looks as good today as it did in 1982. If I lived on the west coast I'd invite you to sail. Not to worry though, someone will take you out. This is a very friendly community and everyone is willing to share ideas and give their opinions. There is never a shortage of 'free opinions' around here!! lol.
Good luck with you quest and I wish you much success.
Skip Campion M-15 #201 1982 Wild Guppy
-----Original Message----- From: Daniel Rich<danielgrich@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 12:26 am Subject: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Hello, all! I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. ice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide eam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and ail. But... My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as omales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 ooks terrific. So, a few questions: 1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but otta ask. ) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, r better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before onsidering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and ike to think I would be good company... ) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new ne. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and traightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one? Thanks so much for your help! Daniel Rich ______________________________________________ ttp://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Daniel, I live in Windsor and sail mostly on Lake Sonoma. I sold my M17 a year or so ago and bought M15 #128 which I have been slowly restoring. I would be glad to show you my boat, it's one of the first built, now close to 30 years old but still sails great. I also looked at the Potters and sailed a 19 before I bought the M17. There are advantages to the Potter 15 and to the M15. I would feel much more secure in the M15 on Tamales Bay. You can call me at 707-837-7564 (my home office) and we can discuss the differences and maybe set up a afternoon for a sail. My name is Ken. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:26 PM Subject: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Hello, all!
I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. Nice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide beam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and sail. But...
My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as Tomales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 looks terrific. So, a few questions:
1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but gotta ask. 2) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, or better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as I live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before considering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and like to think I would be good company... 3) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new one. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and straightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one?
Thanks so much for your help!
Daniel Rich _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Wow. That is a generous offer. I will call you soon. You are right around the block! Daniel On 7/14/2010 8:45 AM, Ken Wheeler wrote:
Daniel, I live in Windsor and sail mostly on Lake Sonoma. I sold my M17 a year or so ago and bought M15 #128 which I have been slowly restoring. I would be glad to show you my boat, it's one of the first built, now close to 30 years old but still sails great. I also looked at the Potters and sailed a 19 before I bought the M17. There are advantages to the Potter 15 and to the M15. I would feel much more secure in the M15 on Tamales Bay. You can call me at 707-837-7564 (my home office) and we can discuss the differences and maybe set up a afternoon for a sail. My name is Ken. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:26 PM Subject: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Hello, all!
I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. Nice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide beam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and sail. But...
My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as Tomales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 looks terrific. So, a few questions:
1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but gotta ask. 2) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, or better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as I live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before considering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and like to think I would be good company... 3) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new one. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and straightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one?
Thanks so much for your help!
Daniel Rich _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Ken: I'm back from vacation. Any chance we can sail in your M 15 Thursday afternoon Aug 12, 19, or 26? Would love to see the boat! Daniel Rich 479-2919 On Jul 14, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Ken Wheeler wrote:
Daniel, I live in Windsor and sail mostly on Lake Sonoma. I sold my M17 a year or so ago and bought M15 #128 which I have been slowly restoring. I would be glad to show you my boat, it's one of the first built, now close to 30 years old but still sails great. I also looked at the Potters and sailed a 19 before I bought the M17. There are advantages to the Potter 15 and to the M15. I would feel much more secure in the M15 on Tamales Bay. You can call me at 707-837-7564 (my home office) and we can discuss the differences and maybe set up a afternoon for a sail. My name is Ken. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:26 PM Subject: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Hello, all!
I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. Nice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide beam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and sail. But...
My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as Tomales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 looks terrific. So, a few questions:
1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but gotta ask. 2) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, or better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as I live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before considering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and like to think I would be good company... 3) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new one. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and straightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one?
Thanks so much for your help!
Daniel Rich _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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David, We've had some family tragedy since when last corresponded. My mother-in-law passed away on Thursday. The funeral is tomorrow. I have been off work and will need to catch up. My schedule should be back to normal in a week or so. I should be ready for a sail on Aug. 19th. We can touch bases beforehand but right now that looks like the best time for me. ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 2:04 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Ken:
I'm back from vacation. Any chance we can sail in your M 15 Thursday afternoon Aug 12, 19, or 26?
Would love to see the boat!
Daniel Rich 479-2919
On Jul 14, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Ken Wheeler wrote:
Daniel, I live in Windsor and sail mostly on Lake Sonoma. I sold my M17 a year or so ago and bought M15 #128 which I have been slowly restoring. I would be glad to show you my boat, it's one of the first built, now close to 30 years old but still sails great. I also looked at the Potters and sailed a 19 before I bought the M17. There are advantages to the Potter 15 and to the M15. I would feel much more secure in the M15 on Tamales Bay. You can call me at 707-837-7564 (my home office) and we can discuss the differences and maybe set up a afternoon for a sail. My name is Ken. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:26 PM Subject: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Hello, all!
I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. Nice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide beam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and sail. But...
My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as Tomales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 looks terrific. So, a few questions:
1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but gotta ask. 2) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, or better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as I live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before considering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and like to think I would be good company... 3) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new one. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and straightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one?
Thanks so much for your help!
Daniel Rich _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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So sorry to hear that. Life is messy. OK, aug 19 will be great if you can do it. We'll touch base before then. Daniel -- Sent from my Palm Pre On Aug 2, 2010 8:19 AM, Ken Wheeler <wesi@comcast.net> wrote: David, We've had some family tragedy since when last corresponded. My mother-in-law passed away on Thursday. The funeral is tomorrow. I have been off work and will need to catch up. My schedule should be back to normal in a week or so. I should be ready for a sail on Aug. 19th. We can touch bases beforehand but right now that looks like the best time for me. ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 2:04 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Considering an M 15 > Ken: > > I'm back from vacation. Any chance we can sail in your M 15 Thursday > afternoon Aug 12, 19, or 26? > > Would love to see the boat! > > Daniel Rich > 479-2919 > > On Jul 14, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Ken Wheeler wrote: > >> Daniel, >> I live in Windsor and sail mostly on Lake Sonoma. I sold my M17 a year >> or so ago and bought M15 #128 which I have been slowly restoring. I >> would be glad to show you my boat, it's one of the first built, now close >> to 30 years old but still sails great. I also looked at the Potters and >> sailed a 19 before I bought the M17. There are advantages to the Potter >> 15 and to the M15. I would feel much more secure in the M15 on Tamales >> Bay. You can call me at 707-837-7564 (my home office) and we can discuss >> the differences and maybe set up a afternoon for a sail. My name is Ken. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> >> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:26 PM >> Subject: M_Boats: Considering an M 15 >> >> >>> Hello, all! >>> >>> I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 >>> dinghy. Nice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her >>> chined hull and wide beam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and >>> she is easy to launch and sail. But... >>> >>> My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such >>> as Tomales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and >>> the M 15 looks terrific. So, a few questions: >>> >>> 1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, >>> but gotta ask. >>> 2) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me >>> their boat, or better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks >>> and premium wine as I live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see >>> one of these boats before considering buying one. I am a 50 year old >>> ophthalmologist in good shape, and like to think I would be good >>> company... >>> 3) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider >>> buying a new one. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems >>> very nice and straightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with >>> buying a new one? >>> >>> Thanks so much for your help! >>> >>> Daniel Rich >>> _______________________________________________ >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats >>> >>> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats >> >> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
in my opinion the montgomery boats are better for three reasons - quality of build sailing ability comfort for the above you have - montgomery boats cost more. a P15 of similar age is about 1/2 the cost of an M15. potters are fun to sail ... but they sail like a dog. they loose seaway, are slow, are a wet ride and pound in any sea above 1/2-a-foot. now it can be said if you just want to be sailing 'who cares'. jerry montgomery and bob build solid boats. i've never seen a discussion about a mboat being of poor finish (the limiting factor on the used market are the owners and if they keep the boats in good repair). the older m15s do have a design flaw ... steel ballast and centerboard. the centerboard in the older M15s is steel wrapped in fiberglass. issues of stuck centerboards are reported. these are RARE. these come in boats that are wet stored for LONG periods of time. these boats are also lacking in basic maintenance. my M15, which i sold last year because i purchased an M17, had steel ballast and centerboard. she was always dry stored, and like most m15s, has no problems with swelling of the skeg keel or centerboard due to rust. potters have their own centerboard issues. the board can leak water into the cabin if the seal is not securely put in place; and the board can come off the rotation pin during a knockdown. neither of these can occur in the M15. you can sleep comfortably on a M15. you have a porta potti that IS usable under sail. m15s have an amazing ability to store lots of items (to much really as you can overload the boat) ... potters have limited storage room. overall the interior of the m15 is 'spacious' (for the size of the boat) and it isn't all that bad to spend time in the cabin. the p15's cabin is VERY small and bisected by the centerboard trunk and compression post (there is no post in the M15 and the centerboard is housed below the cabin giving you SPACE). if you cruise these are important. the cockpit of the m15 is comfortable for sitting and sailing. the potter 15's is longer (nice for outdoor sleeping) but the footwell is shallow and the seatbacks are not all that comfortable. rigging the potter is a bit quicker and easier than the M15. this is because the p15 has a lighter mast that is shorter. neither is difficult. i could rig my 15 in 30-40 minutes. neither boat is heavy and both can be stored in a garage. the potter is lighter and therefore can be towed by a wider line of cars. the potter also sits lower in a trailer as she has no skeg keel (a bit easier to launch from a shallow ramp). the potter has more initial stability than a M15. the M15 is more stable when the wind comes up as she has an excellent hull shape (though designed by jerry she is heavily inspired by lyle hess's m17 design) meaning she gets to about 15 degrees and becomes very stiff. i only read about one M15 going over ... and the situation was a result of many errors by the captain. some have gone to 90 degrees, taken some water in the cockpit and rounded to the wind. the m15 has ballast and a keel. she will react like a keelboat. the potter is a centerboard boat with no significant ballast. there is a history of potter 15s going over and being turtled. BOTH boats have positive flotation. potters can't take high winds and seas. they pound in the sea (due to hull shape) and make for a wet ride (again the hull shape). M15s are a dry ride (i've been in larger boats and experienced more spray in the cockpit) that cuts the waves like a boat should. put a double reef and a storm jib an M15 will do well when the wind is in the high teens (some say a good storm jib for the M15 is a potter15's jib). so ... in the end my opinion is the m15 is the better sailing boat. now - BOTH boats are fun to sail. both are easy to rig, trailer and store. i did look seriously at the potter ... but the craft's poor sailing performance and lack of cabin lead me to the M15 (and now the M17) the final decision comes to: cost and need. save some money and buy a potter. if you want to sail (in a M15 you can put to shame many larger boats) by the montgomery. if you wish to 'mico cruise' in comfort the montgomery wins again. both boats will draw a crowd at any launch or dock (or when you are doing maintenance in your driveway). you can see more details at my old M15's www-site: http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Tue, 7/13/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote: Hello, all! I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. Nice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide beam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and sail. But... My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as Tomales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 looks terrific. So, a few questions: 1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but gotta ask. 2) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, or better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as I live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before considering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and like to think I would be good company... 3) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new one. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and straightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one? Thanks so much for your help! Daniel Rich
Nice info. I saw your old boat on the web while surfing around. All similar conclusions to what I thought without personal experience on my part. The cabin is less important, as I am more likely to day sail, but the sailing characteristics, especially where I sail, seems to make the M-15 the front runner. Daniel On 7/14/2010 9:17 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
in my opinion the montgomery boats are better for three reasons -
quality of build sailing ability comfort
for the above you have -
montgomery boats cost more. a P15 of similar age is about 1/2 the cost of an M15.
potters are fun to sail ... but they sail like a dog. they loose seaway, are slow, are a wet ride and pound in any sea above 1/2-a-foot. now it can be said if you just want to be sailing 'who cares'.
jerry montgomery and bob build solid boats. i've never seen a discussion about a mboat being of poor finish (the limiting factor on the used market are the owners and if they keep the boats in good repair).
the older m15s do have a design flaw ... steel ballast and centerboard. the centerboard in the older M15s is steel wrapped in fiberglass. issues of stuck centerboards are reported. these are RARE. these come in boats that are wet stored for LONG periods of time. these boats are also lacking in basic maintenance. my M15, which i sold last year because i purchased an M17, had steel ballast and centerboard. she was always dry stored, and like most m15s, has no problems with swelling of the skeg keel or centerboard due to rust.
potters have their own centerboard issues. the board can leak water into the cabin if the seal is not securely put in place; and the board can come off the rotation pin during a knockdown. neither of these can occur in the M15.
you can sleep comfortably on a M15. you have a porta potti that IS usable under sail. m15s have an amazing ability to store lots of items (to much really as you can overload the boat) ... potters have limited storage room. overall the interior of the m15 is 'spacious' (for the size of the boat) and it isn't all that bad to spend time in the cabin. the p15's cabin is VERY small and bisected by the centerboard trunk and compression post (there is no post in the M15 and the centerboard is housed below the cabin giving you SPACE). if you cruise these are important.
the cockpit of the m15 is comfortable for sitting and sailing. the potter 15's is longer (nice for outdoor sleeping) but the footwell is shallow and the seatbacks are not all that comfortable.
rigging the potter is a bit quicker and easier than the M15. this is because the p15 has a lighter mast that is shorter. neither is difficult. i could rig my 15 in 30-40 minutes.
neither boat is heavy and both can be stored in a garage. the potter is lighter and therefore can be towed by a wider line of cars. the potter also sits lower in a trailer as she has no skeg keel (a bit easier to launch from a shallow ramp).
the potter has more initial stability than a M15. the M15 is more stable when the wind comes up as she has an excellent hull shape (though designed by jerry she is heavily inspired by lyle hess's m17 design) meaning she gets to about 15 degrees and becomes very stiff. i only read about one M15 going over ... and the situation was a result of many errors by the captain. some have gone to 90 degrees, taken some water in the cockpit and rounded to the wind. the m15 has ballast and a keel. she will react like a keelboat. the potter is a centerboard boat with no significant ballast. there is a history of potter 15s going over and being turtled. BOTH boats have positive flotation.
potters can't take high winds and seas. they pound in the sea (due to hull shape) and make for a wet ride (again the hull shape). M15s are a dry ride (i've been in larger boats and experienced more spray in the cockpit) that cuts the waves like a boat should. put a double reef and a storm jib an M15 will do well when the wind is in the high teens (some say a good storm jib for the M15 is a potter15's jib).
so ... in the end my opinion is the m15 is the better sailing boat.
now - BOTH boats are fun to sail. both are easy to rig, trailer and store. i did look seriously at the potter ... but the craft's poor sailing performance and lack of cabin lead me to the M15 (and now the M17)
the final decision comes to: cost and need. save some money and buy a potter. if you want to sail (in a M15 you can put to shame many larger boats) by the montgomery. if you wish to 'mico cruise' in comfort the montgomery wins again. both boats will draw a crowd at any launch or dock (or when you are doing maintenance in your driveway).
you can see more details at my old M15's www-site:
http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Daniel Rich<danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello, all!
I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. Nice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide beam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and sail. But...
My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as Tomales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 looks terrific. So, a few questions:
1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but gotta ask. 2) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, or better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as I live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before considering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and like to think I would be good company... 3) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new one. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and straightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one?
Thanks so much for your help!
Daniel Rich
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Daniel, Have you visited any of the Potter user groups? I'm curious what the Potter owners have to say about us Montys.. Joe Seafrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Rich To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:33 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Considering an M 15 Nice info. I saw your old boat on the web while surfing around. All similar conclusions to what I thought without personal experience on my part. The cabin is less important, as I am more likely to day sail, but the sailing characteristics, especially where I sail, seems to make the M-15 the front runner. Daniel On 7/14/2010 9:17 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
in my opinion the montgomery boats are better for three reasons -
quality of build sailing ability comfort
for the above you have -
montgomery boats cost more. a P15 of similar age is about 1/2 the cost of an M15.
potters are fun to sail ... but they sail like a dog. they loose seaway, are slow, are a wet ride and pound in any sea above 1/2-a-foot. now it can be said if you just want to be sailing 'who cares'.
jerry montgomery and bob build solid boats. i've never seen a discussion about a mboat being of poor finish (the limiting factor on the used market are the owners and if they keep the boats in good repair).
the older m15s do have a design flaw ... steel ballast and centerboard. the centerboard in the older M15s is steel wrapped in fiberglass. issues of stuck centerboards are reported. these are RARE. these come in boats that are wet stored for LONG periods of time. these boats are also lacking in basic maintenance. my M15, which i sold last year because i purchased an M17, had steel ballast and centerboard. she was always dry stored, and like most m15s, has no problems with swelling of the skeg keel or centerboard due to rust.
potters have their own centerboard issues. the board can leak water into the cabin if the seal is not securely put in place; and the board can come off the rotation pin during a knockdown. neither of these can occur in the M15.
you can sleep comfortably on a M15. you have a porta potti that IS usable under sail. m15s have an amazing ability to store lots of items (to much really as you can overload the boat) ... potters have limited storage room. overall the interior of the m15 is 'spacious' (for the size of the boat) and it isn't all that bad to spend time in the cabin. the p15's cabin is VERY small and bisected by the centerboard trunk and compression post (there is no post in the M15 and the centerboard is housed below the cabin giving you SPACE). if you cruise these are important.
the cockpit of the m15 is comfortable for sitting and sailing. the potter 15's is longer (nice for outdoor sleeping) but the footwell is shallow and the seatbacks are not all that comfortable.
rigging the potter is a bit quicker and easier than the M15. this is because the p15 has a lighter mast that is shorter. neither is difficult. i could rig my 15 in 30-40 minutes.
neither boat is heavy and both can be stored in a garage. the potter is lighter and therefore can be towed by a wider line of cars. the potter also sits lower in a trailer as she has no skeg keel (a bit easier to launch from a shallow ramp).
the potter has more initial stability than a M15. the M15 is more stable when the wind comes up as she has an excellent hull shape (though designed by jerry she is heavily inspired by lyle hess's m17 design) meaning she gets to about 15 degrees and becomes very stiff. i only read about one M15 going over ... and the situation was a result of many errors by the captain. some have gone to 90 degrees, taken some water in the cockpit and rounded to the wind. the m15 has ballast and a keel. she will react like a keelboat. the potter is a centerboard boat with no significant ballast. there is a history of potter 15s going over and being turtled. BOTH boats have positive flotation.
potters can't take high winds and seas. they pound in the sea (due to hull shape) and make for a wet ride (again the hull shape). M15s are a dry ride (i've been in larger boats and experienced more spray in the cockpit) that cuts the waves like a boat should. put a double reef and a storm jib an M15 will do well when the wind is in the high teens (some say a good storm jib for the M15 is a potter15's jib).
so ... in the end my opinion is the m15 is the better sailing boat.
now - BOTH boats are fun to sail. both are easy to rig, trailer and store. i did look seriously at the potter ... but the craft's poor sailing performance and lack of cabin lead me to the M15 (and now the M17)
the final decision comes to: cost and need. save some money and buy a potter. if you want to sail (in a M15 you can put to shame many larger boats) by the montgomery. if you wish to 'mico cruise' in comfort the montgomery wins again. both boats will draw a crowd at any launch or dock (or when you are doing maintenance in your driveway).
you can see more details at my old M15's www-site:
http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Daniel Rich<danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello, all!
I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. Nice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide beam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and sail. But...
My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as Tomales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 looks terrific. So, a few questions:
1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but gotta ask. 2) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, or better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as I live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before considering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and like to think I would be good company... 3) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new one. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and straightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one?
Thanks so much for your help!
Daniel Rich
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I have, but did not ask that question yet. I probably will. The Potters have their pluses, but the main one really is that it is a bit smaller, beachable, and perhaps a bit easier to launch. Still, though, looks like the Monty is better in virtually every way. Just today a whole bunch of posts came through on the potter forum about problems with Potter, such as capsize problems, build quality. Really interesting. Daniel On 7/14/2010 1:40 PM, Joe Murphy wrote:
Daniel, Have you visited any of the Potter user groups? I'm curious what the Potter owners have to say about us Montys.. Joe Seafrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Rich To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:33 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Nice info. I saw your old boat on the web while surfing around. All similar conclusions to what I thought without personal experience on my part. The cabin is less important, as I am more likely to day sail, but the sailing characteristics, especially where I sail, seems to make the M-15 the front runner.
Daniel
On 7/14/2010 9:17 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
in my opinion the montgomery boats are better for three reasons -
quality of build sailing ability comfort
for the above you have -
montgomery boats cost more. a P15 of similar age is about 1/2 the cost of an M15.
potters are fun to sail ... but they sail like a dog. they loose seaway, are slow, are a wet ride and pound in any sea above 1/2-a-foot. now it can be said if you just want to be sailing 'who cares'.
jerry montgomery and bob build solid boats. i've never seen a discussion about a mboat being of poor finish (the limiting factor on the used market are the owners and if they keep the boats in good repair).
the older m15s do have a design flaw ... steel ballast and centerboard. the centerboard in the older M15s is steel wrapped in fiberglass. issues of stuck centerboards are reported. these are RARE. these come in boats that are wet stored for LONG periods of time. these boats are also lacking in basic maintenance. my M15, which i sold last year because i purchased an M17, had steel ballast and centerboard. she was always dry stored, and like most m15s, has no problems with swelling of the skeg keel or centerboard due to rust.
potters have their own centerboard issues. the board can leak water into the cabin if the seal is not securely put in place; and the board can come off the rotation pin during a knockdown. neither of these can occur in the M15.
you can sleep comfortably on a M15. you have a porta potti that IS usable under sail. m15s have an amazing ability to store lots of items (to much really as you can overload the boat) ... potters have limited storage room. overall the interior of the m15 is 'spacious' (for the size of the boat) and it isn't all that bad to spend time in the cabin. the p15's cabin is VERY small and bisected by the centerboard trunk and compression post (there is no post in the M15 and the centerboard is housed below the cabin giving you SPACE). if you cruise these are important.
the cockpit of the m15 is comfortable for sitting and sailing. the potter 15's is longer (nice for outdoor sleeping) but the footwell is shallow and the seatbacks are not all that comfortable.
rigging the potter is a bit quicker and easier than the M15. this is because the p15 has a lighter mast that is shorter. neither is difficult. i could rig my 15 in 30-40 minutes.
neither boat is heavy and both can be stored in a garage. the potter is lighter and therefore can be towed by a wider line of cars. the potter also sits lower in a trailer as she has no skeg keel (a bit easier to launch from a shallow ramp).
the potter has more initial stability than a M15. the M15 is more stable when the wind comes up as she has an excellent hull shape (though designed by jerry she is heavily inspired by lyle hess's m17 design) meaning she gets to about 15 degrees and becomes very stiff. i only read about one M15 going over ... and the situation was a result of many errors by the captain. some have gone to 90 degrees, taken some water in the cockpit and rounded to the wind. the m15 has ballast and a keel. she will react like a keelboat. the potter is a centerboard boat with no significant ballast. there is a history of potter 15s going over and being turtled. BOTH boats have positive flotation.
potters can't take high winds and seas. they pound in the sea (due to hull shape) and make for a wet ride (again the hull shape). M15s are a dry ride (i've been in larger boats and experienced more spray in the cockpit) that cuts the waves like a boat should. put a double reef and a storm jib an M15 will do well when the wind is in the high teens (some say a good storm jib for the M15 is a potter15's jib).
so ... in the end my opinion is the m15 is the better sailing boat.
now - BOTH boats are fun to sail. both are easy to rig, trailer and store. i did look seriously at the potter ... but the craft's poor sailing performance and lack of cabin lead me to the M15 (and now the M17)
the final decision comes to: cost and need. save some money and buy a potter. if you want to sail (in a M15 you can put to shame many larger boats) by the montgomery. if you wish to 'mico cruise' in comfort the montgomery wins again. both boats will draw a crowd at any launch or dock (or when you are doing maintenance in your driveway).
you can see more details at my old M15's www-site:
http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Daniel Rich<danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello, all!
I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. Nice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide beam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and sail. But...
My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as Tomales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 looks terrific. So, a few questions:
1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but gotta ask. 2) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, or better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as I live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before considering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and like to think I would be good company... 3) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new one. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and straightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one?
Thanks so much for your help!
Daniel Rich
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Now, I understand there is some debate about beaching this boat. I sail often in Tomales Bay, with wonderful beaches for sailing up smoothly. I beach my Vagabond easily as it is a light dinghy. How about the M-15. I know some are worried about the centerboard trunk fouling with muck. Thoughts here? Daniel On 7/14/2010 9:17 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
in my opinion the montgomery boats are better for three reasons -
quality of build sailing ability comfort
for the above you have -
montgomery boats cost more. a P15 of similar age is about 1/2 the cost of an M15.
potters are fun to sail ... but they sail like a dog. they loose seaway, are slow, are a wet ride and pound in any sea above 1/2-a-foot. now it can be said if you just want to be sailing 'who cares'.
jerry montgomery and bob build solid boats. i've never seen a discussion about a mboat being of poor finish (the limiting factor on the used market are the owners and if they keep the boats in good repair).
the older m15s do have a design flaw ... steel ballast and centerboard. the centerboard in the older M15s is steel wrapped in fiberglass. issues of stuck centerboards are reported. these are RARE. these come in boats that are wet stored for LONG periods of time. these boats are also lacking in basic maintenance. my M15, which i sold last year because i purchased an M17, had steel ballast and centerboard. she was always dry stored, and like most m15s, has no problems with swelling of the skeg keel or centerboard due to rust.
potters have their own centerboard issues. the board can leak water into the cabin if the seal is not securely put in place; and the board can come off the rotation pin during a knockdown. neither of these can occur in the M15.
you can sleep comfortably on a M15. you have a porta potti that IS usable under sail. m15s have an amazing ability to store lots of items (to much really as you can overload the boat) ... potters have limited storage room. overall the interior of the m15 is 'spacious' (for the size of the boat) and it isn't all that bad to spend time in the cabin. the p15's cabin is VERY small and bisected by the centerboard trunk and compression post (there is no post in the M15 and the centerboard is housed below the cabin giving you SPACE). if you cruise these are important.
the cockpit of the m15 is comfortable for sitting and sailing. the potter 15's is longer (nice for outdoor sleeping) but the footwell is shallow and the seatbacks are not all that comfortable.
rigging the potter is a bit quicker and easier than the M15. this is because the p15 has a lighter mast that is shorter. neither is difficult. i could rig my 15 in 30-40 minutes.
neither boat is heavy and both can be stored in a garage. the potter is lighter and therefore can be towed by a wider line of cars. the potter also sits lower in a trailer as she has no skeg keel (a bit easier to launch from a shallow ramp).
the potter has more initial stability than a M15. the M15 is more stable when the wind comes up as she has an excellent hull shape (though designed by jerry she is heavily inspired by lyle hess's m17 design) meaning she gets to about 15 degrees and becomes very stiff. i only read about one M15 going over ... and the situation was a result of many errors by the captain. some have gone to 90 degrees, taken some water in the cockpit and rounded to the wind. the m15 has ballast and a keel. she will react like a keelboat. the potter is a centerboard boat with no significant ballast. there is a history of potter 15s going over and being turtled. BOTH boats have positive flotation.
potters can't take high winds and seas. they pound in the sea (due to hull shape) and make for a wet ride (again the hull shape). M15s are a dry ride (i've been in larger boats and experienced more spray in the cockpit) that cuts the waves like a boat should. put a double reef and a storm jib an M15 will do well when the wind is in the high teens (some say a good storm jib for the M15 is a potter15's jib).
so ... in the end my opinion is the m15 is the better sailing boat.
now - BOTH boats are fun to sail. both are easy to rig, trailer and store. i did look seriously at the potter ... but the craft's poor sailing performance and lack of cabin lead me to the M15 (and now the M17)
the final decision comes to: cost and need. save some money and buy a potter. if you want to sail (in a M15 you can put to shame many larger boats) by the montgomery. if you wish to 'mico cruise' in comfort the montgomery wins again. both boats will draw a crowd at any launch or dock (or when you are doing maintenance in your driveway).
you can see more details at my old M15's www-site:
http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
Daniel, I don't beach my M15 - too hard on the gel coat. That is probably the only advantage a P15 has over the M15. ken in Windsor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 3:12 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Now, I understand there is some debate about beaching this boat. I sail often in Tomales Bay, with wonderful beaches for sailing up smoothly. I beach my Vagabond easily as it is a light dinghy. How about the M-15. I know some are worried about the centerboard trunk fouling with muck. Thoughts here?
Daniel
On 7/14/2010 9:17 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
in my opinion the montgomery boats are better for three reasons - quality of build sailing ability comfort for the above you have - montgomery boats cost more. a P15 of similar age is about 1/2 the cost of an M15. potters are fun to sail ... but they sail like a dog. they loose seaway, are slow, are a wet ride and pound in any sea above 1/2-a-foot. now it can be said if you just want to be sailing 'who cares'. jerry montgomery and bob build solid boats. i've never seen a discussion about a mboat being of poor finish (the limiting factor on the used market are the owners and if they keep the boats in good repair). the older m15s do have a design flaw ... steel ballast and centerboard. the centerboard in the older M15s is steel wrapped in fiberglass. issues of stuck centerboards are reported. these are RARE. these come in boats that are wet stored for LONG periods of time. these boats are also lacking in basic maintenance. my M15, which i sold last year because i purchased an M17, had steel ballast and centerboard. she was always dry stored, and like most m15s, has no problems with swelling of the skeg keel or centerboard due to rust. potters have their own centerboard issues. the board can leak water into the cabin if the seal is not securely put in place; and the board can come off the rotation pin during a knockdown. neither of these can occur in the M15. you can sleep comfortably on a M15. you have a porta potti that IS usable under sail. m15s have an amazing ability to store lots of items (to much really as you can overload the boat) ... potters have limited storage room. overall the interior of the m15 is 'spacious' (for the size of the boat) and it isn't all that bad to spend time in the cabin. the p15's cabin is VERY small and bisected by the centerboard trunk and compression post (there is no post in the M15 and the centerboard is housed below the cabin giving you SPACE). if you cruise these are important. the cockpit of the m15 is comfortable for sitting and sailing. the potter 15's is longer (nice for outdoor sleeping) but the footwell is shallow and the seatbacks are not all that comfortable. rigging the potter is a bit quicker and easier than the M15. this is because the p15 has a lighter mast that is shorter. neither is difficult. i could rig my 15 in 30-40 minutes. neither boat is heavy and both can be stored in a garage. the potter is lighter and therefore can be towed by a wider line of cars. the potter also sits lower in a trailer as she has no skeg keel (a bit easier to launch from a shallow ramp). the potter has more initial stability than a M15. the M15 is more stable when the wind comes up as she has an excellent hull shape (though designed by jerry she is heavily inspired by lyle hess's m17 design) meaning she gets to about 15 degrees and becomes very stiff. i only read about one M15 going over ... and the situation was a result of many errors by the captain. some have gone to 90 degrees, taken some water in the cockpit and rounded to the wind. the m15 has ballast and a keel. she will react like a keelboat. the potter is a centerboard boat with no significant ballast. there is a history of potter 15s going over and being turtled. BOTH boats have positive flotation. potters can't take high winds and seas. they pound in the sea (due to hull shape) and make for a wet ride (again the hull shape). M15s are a dry ride (i've been in larger boats and experienced more spray in the cockpit) that cuts the waves like a boat should. put a double reef and a storm jib an M15 will do well when the wind is in the high teens (some say a good storm jib for the M15 is a potter15's jib). so ... in the end my opinion is the m15 is the better sailing boat. now - BOTH boats are fun to sail. both are easy to rig, trailer and store. i did look seriously at the potter ... but the craft's poor sailing performance and lack of cabin lead me to the M15 (and now the M17) the final decision comes to: cost and need. save some money and buy a potter. if you want to sail (in a M15 you can put to shame many larger boats) by the montgomery. if you wish to 'mico cruise' in comfort the montgomery wins again. both boats will draw a crowd at any launch or dock (or when you are doing maintenance in your driveway). you can see more details at my old M15's www-site: http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
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OK, but besides the gelcoat, is it hard on the centerboard? Obviously I would hate to muck up the gelcoat, especially if I get a new one! Daniel On 7/14/2010 3:16 PM, Ken Wheeler wrote:
Daniel, I don't beach my M15 - too hard on the gel coat. That is probably the only advantage a P15 has over the M15. ken in Windsor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 3:12 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Now, I understand there is some debate about beaching this boat. I sail often in Tomales Bay, with wonderful beaches for sailing up smoothly. I beach my Vagabond easily as it is a light dinghy. How about the M-15. I know some are worried about the centerboard trunk fouling with muck. Thoughts here?
Daniel
On 7/14/2010 9:17 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
in my opinion the montgomery boats are better for three reasons - quality of build sailing ability comfort for the above you have - montgomery boats cost more. a P15 of similar age is about 1/2 the cost of an M15. potters are fun to sail ... but they sail like a dog. they loose seaway, are slow, are a wet ride and pound in any sea above 1/2-a-foot. now it can be said if you just want to be sailing 'who cares'. jerry montgomery and bob build solid boats. i've never seen a discussion about a mboat being of poor finish (the limiting factor on the used market are the owners and if they keep the boats in good repair). the older m15s do have a design flaw ... steel ballast and centerboard. the centerboard in the older M15s is steel wrapped in fiberglass. issues of stuck centerboards are reported. these are RARE. these come in boats that are wet stored for LONG periods of time. these boats are also lacking in basic maintenance. my M15, which i sold last year because i purchased an M17, had steel ballast and centerboard. she was always dry stored, and like most m15s, has no problems with swelling of the skeg keel or centerboard due to rust. potters have their own centerboard issues. the board can leak water into the cabin if the seal is not securely put in place; and the board can come off the rotation pin during a knockdown. neither of these can occur in the M15. you can sleep comfortably on a M15. you have a porta potti that IS usable under sail. m15s have an amazing ability to store lots of items (to much really as you can overload the boat) ... potters have limited storage room. overall the interior of the m15 is 'spacious' (for the size of the boat) and it isn't all that bad to spend time in the cabin. the p15's cabin is VERY small and bisected by the centerboard trunk and compression post (there is no post in the M15 and the centerboard is housed below the cabin giving you SPACE). if you cruise these are important. the cockpit of the m15 is comfortable for sitting and sailing. the potter 15's is longer (nice for outdoor sleeping) but the footwell is shallow and the seatbacks are not all that comfortable. rigging the potter is a bit quicker and easier than the M15. this is because the p15 has a lighter mast that is shorter. neither is difficult. i could rig my 15 in 30-40 minutes. neither boat is heavy and both can be stored in a garage. the potter is lighter and therefore can be towed by a wider line of cars. the potter also sits lower in a trailer as she has no skeg keel (a bit easier to launch from a shallow ramp). the potter has more initial stability than a M15. the M15 is more stable when the wind comes up as she has an excellent hull shape (though designed by jerry she is heavily inspired by lyle hess's m17 design) meaning she gets to about 15 degrees and becomes very stiff. i only read about one M15 going over ... and the situation was a result of many errors by the captain. some have gone to 90 degrees, taken some water in the cockpit and rounded to the wind. the m15 has ballast and a keel. she will react like a keelboat. the potter is a centerboard boat with no significant ballast. there is a history of potter 15s going over and being turtled. BOTH boats have positive flotation. potters can't take high winds and seas. they pound in the sea (due to hull shape) and make for a wet ride (again the hull shape). M15s are a dry ride (i've been in larger boats and experienced more spray in the cockpit) that cuts the waves like a boat should. put a double reef and a storm jib an M15 will do well when the wind is in the high teens (some say a good storm jib for the M15 is a potter15's jib). so ... in the end my opinion is the m15 is the better sailing boat. now - BOTH boats are fun to sail. both are easy to rig, trailer and store. i did look seriously at the potter ... but the craft's poor sailing performance and lack of cabin lead me to the M15 (and now the M17) the final decision comes to: cost and need. save some money and buy a potter. if you want to sail (in a M15 you can put to shame many larger boats) by the montgomery. if you wish to 'mico cruise' in comfort the montgomery wins again. both boats will draw a crowd at any launch or dock (or when you are doing maintenance in your driveway). you can see more details at my old M15's www-site: http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Daniel, When we take the M15s and the M17 to Tomales, we take inflatables to go ashore when spending the night. Even some of the Potters do too. You can land a M-15 on Marshall Beach out on and just inside of the point end of the beach with out many problems. The Santa Rosa Club land their Catalinas there, talk to the guys at Wind Toys about that. You will love sailing a M15 there, be prepared to shorten sail occasionally. When you are ready, you can sail with us any time we visit the bay. Brad, M15 Jakki, Vagabond 17, Mosey On 7/14/2010 3:17 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
OK, but besides the gelcoat, is it hard on the centerboard? Obviously I would hate to muck up the gelcoat, especially if I get a new one!
Daniel
On 7/14/2010 3:16 PM, Ken Wheeler wrote:
Daniel, I don't beach my M15 - too hard on the gel coat. That is probably the only advantage a P15 has over the M15. ken in Windsor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 3:12 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Now, I understand there is some debate about beaching this boat. I sail often in Tomales Bay, with wonderful beaches for sailing up smoothly. I beach my Vagabond easily as it is a light dinghy. How about the M-15. I know some are worried about the centerboard trunk fouling with muck. Thoughts here?
Daniel
On 7/14/2010 9:17 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
in my opinion the montgomery boats are better for three reasons - quality of build sailing ability comfort for the above you have - montgomery boats cost more. a P15 of similar age is about 1/2 the cost of an M15. potters are fun to sail ... but they sail like a dog. they loose seaway, are slow, are a wet ride and pound in any sea above 1/2-a-foot. now it can be said if you just want to be sailing 'who cares'. jerry montgomery and bob build solid boats. i've never seen a discussion about a mboat being of poor finish (the limiting factor on the used market are the owners and if they keep the boats in good repair). the older m15s do have a design flaw ... steel ballast and centerboard. the centerboard in the older M15s is steel wrapped in fiberglass. issues of stuck centerboards are reported. these are RARE. these come in boats that are wet stored for LONG periods of time. these boats are also lacking in basic maintenance. my M15, which i sold last year because i purchased an M17, had steel ballast and centerboard. she was always dry stored, and like most m15s, has no problems with swelling of the skeg keel or centerboard due to rust. potters have their own centerboard issues. the board can leak water into the cabin if the seal is not securely put in place; and the board can come off the rotation pin during a knockdown. neither of these can occur in the M15. you can sleep comfortably on a M15. you have a porta potti that IS usable under sail. m15s have an amazing ability to store lots of items (to much really as you can overload the boat) ... potters have limited storage room. overall the interior of the m15 is 'spacious' (for the size of the boat) and it isn't all that bad to spend time in the cabin. the p15's cabin is VERY small and bisected by the centerboard trunk and compression post (there is no post in the M15 and the centerboard is housed below the cabin giving you SPACE). if you cruise these are important. the cockpit of the m15 is comfortable for sitting and sailing. the potter 15's is longer (nice for outdoor sleeping) but the footwell is shallow and the seatbacks are not all that comfortable. rigging the potter is a bit quicker and easier than the M15. this is because the p15 has a lighter mast that is shorter. neither is difficult. i could rig my 15 in 30-40 minutes. neither boat is heavy and both can be stored in a garage. the potter is lighter and therefore can be towed by a wider line of cars. the potter also sits lower in a trailer as she has no skeg keel (a bit easier to launch from a shallow ramp). the potter has more initial stability than a M15. the M15 is more stable when the wind comes up as she has an excellent hull shape (though designed by jerry she is heavily inspired by lyle hess's m17 design) meaning she gets to about 15 degrees and becomes very stiff. i only read about one M15 going over ... and the situation was a result of many errors by the captain. some have gone to 90 degrees, taken some water in the cockpit and rounded to the wind. the m15 has ballast and a keel. she will react like a keelboat. the potter is a centerboard boat with no significant ballast. there is a history of potter 15s going over and being turtled. BOTH boats have positive flotation. potters can't take high winds and seas. they pound in the sea (due to hull shape) and make for a wet ride (again the hull shape). M15s are a dry ride (i've been in larger boats and experienced more spray in the cockpit) that cuts the waves like a boat should. put a double reef and a storm jib an M15 will do well when the wind is in the high teens (some say a good storm jib for the M15 is a potter15's jib). so ... in the end my opinion is the m15 is the better sailing boat. now - BOTH boats are fun to sail. both are easy to rig, trailer and store. i did look seriously at the potter ... but the craft's poor sailing performance and lack of cabin lead me to the M15 (and now the M17) the final decision comes to: cost and need. save some money and buy a potter. if you want to sail (in a M15 you can put to shame many larger boats) by the montgomery. if you wish to 'mico cruise' in comfort the montgomery wins again. both boats will draw a crowd at any launch or dock (or when you are doing maintenance in your driveway). you can see more details at my old M15's www-site: http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
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Sounds great. I would love to sail with you. I will let you know about this process, and see what develops. There is a fellow in Windsor with an m-15 he is willing to show me and sail with me, and another guy down in Alameda. Once I have had a chance to check it out, I suspect I will buy one. Now, delivery will take quite a while after I order one, but I can continue to sail my little Vagabond until then. Daniel On Jul 14, 2010, at 4:09 PM, Brad & Jackie Evans wrote:
Daniel, When we take the M15s and the M17 to Tomales, we take inflatables to go ashore when spending the night. Even some of the Potters do too. You can land a M-15 on Marshall Beach out on and just inside of the point end of the beach with out many problems. The Santa Rosa Club land their Catalinas there, talk to the guys at Wind Toys about that. You will love sailing a M15 there, be prepared to shorten sail occasionally. When you are ready, you can sail with us any time we visit the bay. Brad, M15 Jakki, Vagabond 17, Mosey
On 7/14/2010 3:17 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
OK, but besides the gelcoat, is it hard on the centerboard? Obviously I would hate to muck up the gelcoat, especially if I get a new one!
Daniel
On 7/14/2010 3:16 PM, Ken Wheeler wrote:
Daniel, I don't beach my M15 - too hard on the gel coat. That is probably the only advantage a P15 has over the M15. ken in Windsor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 3:12 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Considering an M 15
Now, I understand there is some debate about beaching this boat. I sail often in Tomales Bay, with wonderful beaches for sailing up smoothly. I beach my Vagabond easily as it is a light dinghy. How about the M-15. I know some are worried about the centerboard trunk fouling with muck. Thoughts here?
Daniel
On 7/14/2010 9:17 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
in my opinion the montgomery boats are better for three reasons - quality of build sailing ability comfort for the above you have - montgomery boats cost more. a P15 of similar age is about 1/2 the cost of an M15. potters are fun to sail ... but they sail like a dog. they loose seaway, are slow, are a wet ride and pound in any sea above 1/2-a-foot. now it can be said if you just want to be sailing 'who cares'. jerry montgomery and bob build solid boats. i've never seen a discussion about a mboat being of poor finish (the limiting factor on the used market are the owners and if they keep the boats in good repair). the older m15s do have a design flaw ... steel ballast and centerboard. the centerboard in the older M15s is steel wrapped in fiberglass. issues of stuck centerboards are reported. these are RARE. these come in boats that are wet stored for LONG periods of time. these boats are also lacking in basic maintenance. my M15, which i sold last year because i purchased an M17, had steel ballast and centerboard. she was always dry stored, and like most m15s, has no problems with swelling of the skeg keel or centerboard due to rust. potters have their own centerboard issues. the board can leak water into the cabin if the seal is not securely put in place; and the board can come off the rotation pin during a knockdown. neither of these can occur in the M15. you can sleep comfortably on a M15. you have a porta potti that IS usable under sail. m15s have an amazing ability to store lots of items (to much really as you can overload the boat) ... potters have limited storage room. overall the interior of the m15 is 'spacious' (for the size of the boat) and it isn't all that bad to spend time in the cabin. the p15's cabin is VERY small and bisected by the centerboard trunk and compression post (there is no post in the M15 and the centerboard is housed below the cabin giving you SPACE). if you cruise these are important. the cockpit of the m15 is comfortable for sitting and sailing. the potter 15's is longer (nice for outdoor sleeping) but the footwell is shallow and the seatbacks are not all that comfortable. rigging the potter is a bit quicker and easier than the M15. this is because the p15 has a lighter mast that is shorter. neither is difficult. i could rig my 15 in 30-40 minutes. neither boat is heavy and both can be stored in a garage. the potter is lighter and therefore can be towed by a wider line of cars. the potter also sits lower in a trailer as she has no skeg keel (a bit easier to launch from a shallow ramp). the potter has more initial stability than a M15. the M15 is more stable when the wind comes up as she has an excellent hull shape (though designed by jerry she is heavily inspired by lyle hess's m17 design) meaning she gets to about 15 degrees and becomes very stiff. i only read about one M15 going over ... and the situation was a result of many errors by the captain. some have gone to 90 degrees, taken some water in the cockpit and rounded to the wind. the m15 has ballast and a keel. she will react like a keelboat. the potter is a centerboard boat with no significant ballast. there is a history of potter 15s going over and being turtled. BOTH boats have positive flotation. potters can't take high winds and seas. they pound in the sea (due to hull shape) and make for a wet ride (again the hull shape). M15s are a dry ride (i've been in larger boats and experienced more spray in the cockpit) that cuts the waves like a boat should. put a double reef and a storm jib an M15 will do well when the wind is in the high teens (some say a good storm jib for the M15 is a potter15's jib). so ... in the end my opinion is the m15 is the better sailing boat. now - BOTH boats are fun to sail. both are easy to rig, trailer and store. i did look seriously at the potter ... but the craft's poor sailing performance and lack of cabin lead me to the M15 (and now the M17) the final decision comes to: cost and need. save some money and buy a potter. if you want to sail (in a M15 you can put to shame many larger boats) by the montgomery. if you wish to 'mico cruise' in comfort the montgomery wins again. both boats will draw a crowd at any launch or dock (or when you are doing maintenance in your driveway). you can see more details at my old M15's www-site: http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
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Good Morning! I too have been researching your fine Montgomery 15 boats and have enjoyed reading the questions and responses in the Thread titled "Considering an M 15" very much. So informative! Many of my same considerations have been met with these exchanges. A resident of the upper Midwest, and a sailor of Wisconsin's inland lakes, I have no doubt about the quality of the M-15. You can feel that just from seeing her. Still, my particulars may not be well suited for this honorable boat, as much as I want them to be! I have a few unanswered questions which perhaps this knowledgeable and sharing group will consider; 1. I've read about M-15 sailors with supplies and provisions mounting up in weight for longer treks and the boat handling fine; what of four adult passengers totally 600 lbs with a bare minimum of supplies on a day sale? Dose this weight make her sluggish? 2. How detrimental to a fine craft such as the M-15 is winter storing outside, well covered by appropriate tarps? This is Wisconsin I am talking about. What are the necessary precautions of outdoor storage in freezing conditions? Thank you for your patient attention. Best Regards, Martha
Dear Martha, first of all, where are you located? I am in Madison, WI, and I have an M-17, if you are somewhere near I'd be glad to take you along for a sail someday. I did the same kind of research that you are interested in and the unanimous opinion was that 4 people do not fit in an M-15, the cockpit is too small. I was interested in sailing myself, my wife, and two young boys and everyone on the list agreed that it will be too cramped. In an M-17 4 people fit very comfortably for a day sail. Secondly I don't know about storing outside: around Madison (within a 30 mile radius) there are many farmers which offer in the winter their barns to store boats, sports cars, etc. This is a well established business and it's easy to find such people on craigslist. The cost is very reasonable, around $150 for the whole winter, and the boat sits inside. With my M-17 the only thing I do before putting her in storage is drain the water tank. Good luck, Andrei.
Dear Andrei! Thank you so much for your response! I am situated on that giant yet shallow swelling of the Rock River known as Lake Koshkonong; 10,000 acres but with an average depth of six feet! Thank you for your offer to take me aboard your boat! Sitting in a dry docked M-15 it seemed as though four agile adults (that were fond of one another) might fit just fine, especially since the boom clearance was so high! I was concerned about the weight factor especially. Truth is, I am not sure how frequently I'll have the pleasure of three eager sailors; more often I expect to sail singly, or at best with one other crew member. The small size is attractive to me for ease of trailering in and out of Lake K, or elsewhere, should I get the hankering to take her on the road! Thank you too for reminding me of the availability of barn storage. I have utilized the option of kind local farmers in the past. How long have you been an M-17-er? Are you sailing right there in Madison? Martha -----Original Message----- From: Andrei Caldararu <andreic@math.wisc.edu> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 11:00 am Subject: Re: M_Boats: Also Considering an M 15! Dear Martha, first of all, where are you located? I am in Madison, WI, and I have an M-17, if you are somewhere near I'd be glad to take you along for a sail someday. I did the same kind of research that you are interested in and the unanimous opinion was that 4 people do not fit in an M-15, the cockpit is too small. I was interested in sailing myself, my wife, and two young boys and everyone on the list agreed that it will be too cramped. In an M-17 4 people fit very comfortably for a day sail. Secondly I don't know about storing outside: around Madison (within a 30 mile radius) there are many farmers which offer in the winter their barns to store boats, sports cars, etc. This is a well established business and it's easy to find such people on craigslist. The cost is very reasonable, around $150 for the whole winter, and the boat sits inside. With my M-17 the only thing I do before putting her in storage is drain the water tank. Good luck, Andrei. _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Martha, I'm not sure about the 600lbs of cargo, but simply from a space standpoint it seems like a square peg in a round hole problem. It's possible, but I actually try to avoid that many people in my boat. In my opinion, it's too cramped while sailing to easily do what you need to be doing (tacking, gybing, hoisting, lowering, adjusting, etc.) with 4 adult bodies. My bias is primarily that I prefer the lively, nimble, aspects of the boat and freedom of movement. Winter storage? I'm from Oregon, so I can offer nothing useful on that. These boats fit in a standard sized garage pretty well though. Good luck! Jason Hood River, OR M-15 #411 -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of marthaekwurtzel@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 8:50 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Also Considering an M 15! Good Morning! I too have been researching your fine Montgomery 15 boats and have enjoyed reading the questions and responses in the Thread titled "Considering an M 15" very much. So informative! Many of my same considerations have been met with these exchanges. A resident of the upper Midwest, and a sailor of Wisconsin's inland lakes, I have no doubt about the quality of the M-15. You can feel that just from seeing her. Still, my particulars may not be well suited for this honorable boat, as much as I want them to be! I have a few unanswered questions which perhaps this knowledgeable and sharing group will consider; 1. I've read about M-15 sailors with supplies and provisions mounting up in weight for longer treks and the boat handling fine; what of four adult passengers totally 600 lbs with a bare minimum of supplies on a day sale? Dose this weight make her sluggish? 2. How detrimental to a fine craft such as the M-15 is winter storing outside, well covered by appropriate tarps? This is Wisconsin I am talking about. What are the necessary precautions of outdoor storage in freezing conditions? Thank you for your patient attention. Best Regards, Martha _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
four adults in an M15 will make her squat at the stern and sail like a dog. best sailing in a 15 is one or two people. she will sail VERY well with two as you have a good amount of movable ballast. you can sail three, but need to keep the weight forward in the cockpit, or have one person 'sit' in the cabin. a cover of some sort is best for winter storage. my M15 had a nice custom canvas full-boat cover (pictures at http://www.msogphotosite.com/boatcovers.html ). washington isn't midwest sub-zero cold (i lived for three years in MN, and through the 'famous '96-'97 winter') ... but in WA we know how to RAIN. make sure the boat is set to drain water out the cockpit/centerboard line hole (slight bow down). make sure she is clean or the mold will grow (inside and out). make sure the cabintop hardware isn't leaking as the balsa core will ROT. as already stated remove all things that can freeze and food items. my practice was to remove the cabin cushions and porta-potti. make sure no water is in the small bilge ... this could freeze and case damage. my old M15's www-site - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Thu, 7/15/10, marthaekwurtzel@aol.com <marthaekwurtzel@aol.com> wrote: Good Morning! I too have been researching your fine Montgomery 15 boats and have enjoyed reading the questions and responses in the Thread titled "Considering an M 15" very much. So informative! Many of my same considerations have been met with these exchanges. A resident of the upper Midwest, and a sailor of Wisconsin's inland lakes, I have no doubt about the quality of the M-15. You can feel that just from seeing her. Still, my particulars may not be well suited for this honorable boat, as much as I want them to be! I have a few unanswered questions which perhaps this knowledgeable and sharing group will consider; 1. I've read about M-15 sailors with supplies and provisions mounting up in weight for longer treks and the boat handling fine; what of four adult passengers totally 600 lbs with a bare minimum of supplies on a day sale? Dose this weight make her sluggish? 2. How detrimental to a fine craft such as the M-15 is winter storing outside, well covered by appropriate tarps? This is Wisconsin I am talking about. What are the necessary precautions of outdoor storage in freezing conditions? Thank you for your patient attention. Best Regards, Martha
Thanks Dave! I had visited your site while researching. I think that might have been where I first considered the issue of how many passengers. I remember the winnter of 96-97! I recall being stuck at the Mnpls airport for about 12 hours! Thanks for the good information, Martha -----Original Message----- From: W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 2:25 pm Subject: Re: M_Boats: Also Considering an M 15! four adults in an M15 will make her squat at the stern and sail like a dog. best sailing in a 15 is one or two people. she will sail VERY well with two as you have a good amount of movable ballast. you can sail three, but need to keep the weight forward in the cockpit, or have one person 'sit' in the cabin. a cover of some sort is best for winter storage. my M15 had a nice custom canvas full-boat cover (pictures at http://www.msogphotosite.com/boatcovers.html ). washington isn't midwest sub-zero cold (i lived for three years in MN, and through the 'famous '96-'97 winter') ... but in WA we know how to RAIN. make sure the boat is set to drain water out the cockpit/centerboard line hole (slight bow down). make sure she is clean or the mold will grow (inside and out). make sure the cabintop hardware isn't leaking as the balsa core will ROT. as already stated remove all things that can freeze and food items. my practice was to remove the cabin cushions and porta-potti. make sure no water is in the small bilge ... this could freeze and case damage. my old M15's www-site - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Thu, 7/15/10, marthaekwurtzel@aol.com <marthaekwurtzel@aol.com> wrote: Good Morning! I too have been researching your fine Montgomery 15 boats and have enjoyed reading the questions and responses in the Thread titled "Considering an M 15" very much. So informative! Many of my same considerations have been met with these exchanges. A resident of the upper Midwest, and a sailor of Wisconsin's inland lakes, I have no doubt about the quality of the M-15. You can feel that just from seeing her. Still, my particulars may not be well suited for this honorable boat, as much as I want them to be! I have a few unanswered questions which perhaps this knowledgeable and sharing group will consider; 1. I've read about M-15 sailors with supplies and provisions mounting up in weight for longer treks and the boat handling fine; what of four adult passengers totally 600 lbs with a bare minimum of supplies on a day sale? Dose this weight make her sluggish? 2. How detrimental to a fine craft such as the M-15 is winter storing outside, well covered by appropriate tarps? This is Wisconsin I am talking about. What are the necessary precautions of outdoor storage in freezing conditions? Thank you for your patient attention. Best Regards, Martha _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
in my opinion the montgomery boats are better for three reasons - quality of build sailing ability comfort for the above you have - montgomery boats cost more. a P15 of similar age is about 1/2 the cost of an M15. potters are fun to sail ... but they sail like a dog. they loose seaway, are slow, are a wet ride and pound in any sea above 1/2-a-foot. now it can be said if you just want to be sailing 'who cares'. jerry montgomery and bob build solid boats. i've never seen a discussion about a mboat being of poor finish (the limiting factor on the used market are the owners and if they keep the boats in good repair). the older m15s do have a design flaw ... steel ballast and centerboard. the centerboard in the older M15s is steel wrapped in fiberglass. issues of stuck centerboards are reported. these are RARE. these come in boats that are wet stored for LONG periods of time. these boats are also lacking in basic maintenance. my M15, which i sold last year because i purchased an M17, had steel ballast and centerboard. she was always dry stored, and like most m15s, has no problems with swelling of the skeg keel or centerboard due to rust. potters have their own centerboard issues. the board can leak water into the cabin if the seal is not securely put in place; and the board can come off the rotation pin during a knockdown. neither of these can occur in the M15. you can sleep comfortably on a M15. you have a porta potti that IS usable under sail. m15s have an amazing ability to store lots of items (to much really as you can overload the boat) ... potters have limited storage room. overall the interior of the m15 is 'spacious' (for the size of the boat) and it isn't all that bad to spend time in the cabin. the p15's cabin is VERY small and bisected by the centerboard trunk and compression post (there is no post in the M15 and the centerboard is housed below the cabin giving you SPACE). if you cruise these are important. the cockpit of the m15 is comfortable for sitting and sailing. the potter 15's is longer (nice for outdoor sleeping) but the footwell is shallow and the seatbacks are not all that comfortable. rigging the potter is a bit quicker and easier than the M15. this is because the p15 has a lighter mast that is shorter. neither is difficult. i could rig my 15 in 30-40 minutes. neither boat is heavy and both can be stored in a garage. the potter is lighter and therefore can be towed by a wider line of cars. the potter also sits lower in a trailer as she has no skeg keel (a bit easier to launch from a shallow ramp). the potter has more initial stability than a M15. the M15 is more stable when the wind comes up as she has an excellent hull shape (though designed by jerry she is heavily inspired by lyle hess's m17 design) meaning she gets to about 15 degrees and becomes very stiff. i only read about one M15 going over ... and the situation was a result of many errors by the captain. some have gone to 90 degrees, taken some water in the cockpit and rounded to the wind. the m15 has ballast and a keel. she will react like a keelboat. the potter is a centerboard boat with no significant ballast. there is a history of potter 15s going over and being turtled. BOTH boats have positive flotation. potters can't take high winds and seas. they pound in the sea (due to hull shape) and make for a wet ride (again the hull shape). M15s are a dry ride (i've been in larger boats and experienced more spray in the cockpit) that cuts the waves like a boat should. put a double reef and a storm jib an M15 will do well when the wind is in the high teens (some say a good storm jib for the M15 is a potter15's jib). so ... in the end my opinion is the m15 is the better sailing boat. now - BOTH boats are fun to sail. both are easy to rig, trailer and store. i did look seriously at the potter ... but the craft's poor sailing performance and lack of cabin lead me to the M15 (and now the M17) the final decision comes to: cost and need. save some money and buy a potter. if you want to sail (in a M15 you can put to shame many larger boats) by the montgomery. if you wish to 'mico cruise' in comfort the montgomery wins again. both boats will draw a crowd at any launch or dock (or when you are doing maintenance in your driveway). you can see more details at my old M15's www-site: http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Tue, 7/13/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote: Hello, all! I just joined, but do not own a M 15. I currently sail a Vagabond 14 dinghy. Nice little boat, and for a dinghy, pretty stable with her chined hull and wide beam. I have her rigged nicely to single hand, and she is easy to launch and sail. But... My wife just doesn't feel too safe in it when I sail in good wind, such as Tomales Bay in California. So, I am considering a pocket cruiser, and the M 15 looks terrific. So, a few questions: 1) Why the M 15 over the WW Potter 15? The M 15 looks much better to me, but gotta ask. 2) Anybody in Northern California near Santa Rosa willing to show me their boat, or better yet, take me out for a demo? I will supply snacks and premium wine as I live in Sonoma County! I would really like to see one of these boats before considering buying one. I am a 50 year old ophthalmologist in good shape, and like to think I would be good company... 3) I figure finding a used one will be tough. So, I would consider buying a new one. Had a few emails with Bob Eeg of NorSea, and he seems very nice and straightforward. Any words of wisdom when dealing with buying a new one? Thanks so much for your help! Daniel Rich
participants (10)
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Andrei Caldararu -
Brad & Jackie Evans -
Daniel Rich -
Hughston, Larry -
Jason A. Smith -
Joe Murphy -
Ken Wheeler -
marthaekwurtzel＠aol.com -
W David Scobie -
wcampion＠aol.com