I read the review from Small Craft Advisor about the M-15. Really nice review. One thing they say is that the rudder can stall. What does that mean? It is a long and thin rudder, so somebody apparently replaced theirs with a shorter broader one. Thoughts? Daniel
all rudders can stall. the 15 will have weather helm if overpowered (like all boats _should_ when overpowered). she communicates to the person holding the tiller when the sail(s) need to be reduced. i never felt the M15 has any more 'weather helm' characteristics than other craft. she is 'sporty' and light in weight so you really know how the boat is performing. the difference in 'feedback' is marked between the 15 and 17 - both sail similarly, but the 17 is more forgiving and provides less feedback (all relate to size, a few feet long and a wider, and heavier, at least 1200 pounds). i never took my 15 'to the edge'. there are other members that can discuss 'pucker moments'. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA former M15 owner visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote: I read the review from Small Craft Advisor about the M-15. Really nice review. One thing they say is that the rudder can stall. What does that mean? It is a long and thin rudder, so somebody apparently replaced theirs with a shorter broader one. Thoughts? Daniel
I guess what I am asking is, what is stalling a rudder? Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:36 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
all rudders can stall.
the 15 will have weather helm if overpowered (like all boats _should_ when overpowered). she communicates to the person holding the tiller when the sail(s) need to be reduced. i never felt the M15 has any more 'weather helm' characteristics than other craft. she is 'sporty' and light in weight so you really know how the boat is performing. the difference in 'feedback' is marked between the 15 and 17 - both sail similarly, but the 17 is more forgiving and provides less feedback (all relate to size, a few feet long and a wider, and heavier, at least 1200 pounds).
i never took my 15 'to the edge'. there are other members that can discuss 'pucker moments'.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA former M15 owner visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I read the review from Small Craft Advisor about the M-15. Really nice review. One thing they say is that the rudder can stall. What does that mean? It is a long and thin rudder, so somebody apparently replaced theirs with a shorter broader one. Thoughts?
Daniel
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Daniel, Think of the rudder as an airfoil or as a wing, a wing makes lift, a stall is the loss of lift from too high an angle of attack or too much load. A stall in an airplane is a good deal as when a wing stalls the load on the wing goes down,this is good because it keeps the wing from breaking. Same with a rudder only we have a small problem of loosing directional control, if that's not desirable then lighten the load on the foil (rudder) by letting the main out. Some boats react well to decreasing the aft rake in the mast, moving the center of effort forward and easing the load or side load on the rudder. Google wing lift to learn more. Hope this helps and doesn't cause more head scratching. Stan --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote: From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stalling the rudder To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 10:10 PM I guess what I am asking is, what is stalling a rudder? Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:36 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
all rudders can stall. the 15 will have weather helm if overpowered (like all boats _should_ when overpowered). she communicates to the person holding the tiller when the sail(s) need to be reduced. i never felt the M15 has any more 'weather helm' characteristics than other craft. she is 'sporty' and light in weight so you really know how the boat is performing. the difference in 'feedback' is marked between the 15 and 17 - both sail similarly, but the 17 is more forgiving and provides less feedback (all relate to size, a few feet long and a wider, and heavier, at least 1200 pounds). i never took my 15 'to the edge'. there are other members that can discuss 'pucker moments'. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA former M15 owner visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I read the review from Small Craft Advisor about the M-15. Really nice review. One thing they say is that the rudder can stall. What does that mean? It is a long and thin rudder, so somebody apparently replaced theirs with a shorter broader one. Thoughts?
Daniel
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OK, so I am in my Vagabond and close hauled. Blowing hard. So, under that situation the boat will try to round up as it is overpowered. So, I then have to pull the tiller to windward to compensate, but if the angle of attack becomes too high, then the rudder loses "lift", and no longer is able to overcome the tendency to round up. Is that it? So, a slender rudder will be more likely to do this. OK, I think I get it. Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:30 PM, Stan Susman wrote:
Daniel,
Think of the rudder as an airfoil or as a wing, a wing makes lift, a stall is the loss of lift from too high an angle of attack or too much load. A stall in an airplane is a good deal as when a wing stalls the load on the wing goes down,this is good because it keeps the wing from breaking. Same with a rudder only we have a small problem of loosing directional control, if that's not desirable then lighten the load on the foil (rudder) by letting the main out. Some boats react well to decreasing the aft rake in the mast, moving the center of effort forward and easing the load or side load on the rudder. Google wing lift to learn more. Hope this helps and doesn't cause more head scratching.
Stan --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stalling the rudder To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 10:10 PM
I guess what I am asking is, what is stalling a rudder?
Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:36 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
all rudders can stall.
the 15 will have weather helm if overpowered (like all boats _should_ when overpowered). she communicates to the person holding the tiller when the sail(s) need to be reduced. i never felt the M15 has any more 'weather helm' characteristics than other craft. she is 'sporty' and light in weight so you really know how the boat is performing. the difference in 'feedback' is marked between the 15 and 17 - both sail similarly, but the 17 is more forgiving and provides less feedback (all relate to size, a few feet long and a wider, and heavier, at least 1200 pounds).
i never took my 15 'to the edge'. there are other members that can discuss 'pucker moments'.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA former M15 owner visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I read the review from Small Craft Advisor about the M-15. Really nice review. One thing they say is that the rudder can stall. What does that mean? It is a long and thin rudder, so somebody apparently replaced theirs with a shorter broader one. Thoughts?
Daniel
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What do you mean by slender? I guess not fat? or tall and skinny fore and aft? --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote: From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stalling the rudder To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 10:38 PM OK, so I am in my Vagabond and close hauled. Blowing hard. So, under that situation the boat will try to round up as it is overpowered. So, I then have to pull the tiller to windward to compensate, but if the angle of attack becomes too high, then the rudder loses "lift", and no longer is able to overcome the tendency to round up. Is that it? So, a slender rudder will be more likely to do this. OK, I think I get it. Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:30 PM, Stan Susman wrote:
Daniel, Think of the rudder as an airfoil or as a wing, a wing makes lift, a stall is the loss of lift from too high an angle of attack or too much load. A stall in an airplane is a good deal as when a wing stalls the load on the wing goes down,this is good because it keeps the wing from breaking. Same with a rudder only we have a small problem of loosing directional control, if that's not desirable then lighten the load on the foil (rudder) by letting the main out. Some boats react well to decreasing the aft rake in the mast, moving the center of effort forward and easing the load or side load on the rudder. Google wing lift to learn more. Hope this helps and doesn't cause more head scratching. Stan --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stalling the rudder To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 10:10 PM
I guess what I am asking is, what is stalling a rudder?
Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:36 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
all rudders can stall. the 15 will have weather helm if overpowered (like all boats _should_ when overpowered). she communicates to the person holding the tiller when the sail(s) need to be reduced. i never felt the M15 has any more 'weather helm' characteristics than other craft. she is 'sporty' and light in weight so you really know how the boat is performing. the difference in 'feedback' is marked between the 15 and 17 - both sail similarly, but the 17 is more forgiving and provides less feedback (all relate to size, a few feet long and a wider, and heavier, at least 1200 pounds). i never took my 15 'to the edge'. there are other members that can discuss 'pucker moments'. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA former M15 owner visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I read the review from Small Craft Advisor about the M-15. Really nice review. One thing they say is that the rudder can stall. What does that mean? It is a long and thin rudder, so somebody apparently replaced theirs with a shorter broader one. Thoughts?
Daniel
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Tall and skinny fore and aft, yes. Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:47 PM, Stan Susman wrote:
What do you mean by slender? I guess not fat? or tall and skinny fore and aft?
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stalling the rudder To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 10:38 PM
OK, so I am in my Vagabond and close hauled. Blowing hard. So, under that situation the boat will try to round up as it is overpowered. So, I then have to pull the tiller to windward to compensate, but if the angle of attack becomes too high, then the rudder loses "lift", and no longer is able to overcome the tendency to round up. Is that it? So, a slender rudder will be more likely to do this. OK, I think I get it.
Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:30 PM, Stan Susman wrote:
Daniel,
Think of the rudder as an airfoil or as a wing, a wing makes lift, a stall is the loss of lift from too high an angle of attack or too much load. A stall in an airplane is a good deal as when a wing stalls the load on the wing goes down,this is good because it keeps the wing from breaking. Same with a rudder only we have a small problem of loosing directional control, if that's not desirable then lighten the load on the foil (rudder) by letting the main out. Some boats react well to decreasing the aft rake in the mast, moving the center of effort forward and easing the load or side load on the rudder. Google wing lift to learn more. Hope this helps and doesn't cause more head scratching.
Stan --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stalling the rudder To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 10:10 PM
I guess what I am asking is, what is stalling a rudder?
Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:36 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
all rudders can stall.
the 15 will have weather helm if overpowered (like all boats _should_ when overpowered). she communicates to the person holding the tiller when the sail(s) need to be reduced. i never felt the M15 has any more 'weather helm' characteristics than other craft. she is 'sporty' and light in weight so you really know how the boat is performing. the difference in 'feedback' is marked between the 15 and 17 - both sail similarly, but the 17 is more forgiving and provides less feedback (all relate to size, a few feet long and a wider, and heavier, at least 1200 pounds).
i never took my 15 'to the edge'. there are other members that can discuss 'pucker moments'.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA former M15 owner visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I read the review from Small Craft Advisor about the M-15. Really nice review. One thing they say is that the rudder can stall. What does that mean? It is a long and thin rudder, so somebody apparently replaced theirs with a shorter broader one. Thoughts?
Daniel
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Tall and skinny or high aspect ratio shouldn't effect stall unless there's just not enough area. The vagabond is fairly wide aft so the rudder may be getting lifted mostly out of the water and loosing area as the boat heals,again ease the main to get the boat flatter in the water,both foils will work better. Don't worry about a big bubble in the mail,it will still sail just fine.. --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote: From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stalling the rudder To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 10:52 PM Tall and skinny fore and aft, yes. Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:47 PM, Stan Susman wrote:
What do you mean by slender? I guess not fat? or tall and skinny fore and aft?
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stalling the rudder To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 10:38 PM
OK, so I am in my Vagabond and close hauled. Blowing hard. So, under that situation the boat will try to round up as it is overpowered. So, I then have to pull the tiller to windward to compensate, but if the angle of attack becomes too high, then the rudder loses "lift", and no longer is able to overcome the tendency to round up. Is that it? So, a slender rudder will be more likely to do this. OK, I think I get it.
Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:30 PM, Stan Susman wrote:
Daniel, Think of the rudder as an airfoil or as a wing, a wing makes lift, a stall is the loss of lift from too high an angle of attack or too much load. A stall in an airplane is a good deal as when a wing stalls the load on the wing goes down,this is good because it keeps the wing from breaking. Same with a rudder only we have a small problem of loosing directional control, if that's not desirable then lighten the load on the foil (rudder) by letting the main out. Some boats react well to decreasing the aft rake in the mast, moving the center of effort forward and easing the load or side load on the rudder. Google wing lift to learn more. Hope this helps and doesn't cause more head scratching. Stan --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stalling the rudder To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 10:10 PM
I guess what I am asking is, what is stalling a rudder?
Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:36 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
all rudders can stall. the 15 will have weather helm if overpowered (like all boats _should_ when overpowered). she communicates to the person holding the tiller when the sail(s) need to be reduced. i never felt the M15 has any more 'weather helm' characteristics than other craft. she is 'sporty' and light in weight so you really know how the boat is performing. the difference in 'feedback' is marked between the 15 and 17 - both sail similarly, but the 17 is more forgiving and provides less feedback (all relate to size, a few feet long and a wider, and heavier, at least 1200 pounds). i never took my 15 'to the edge'. there are other members that can discuss 'pucker moments'. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA former M15 owner visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I read the review from Small Craft Advisor about the M-15. Really nice review. One thing they say is that the rudder can stall. What does that mean? It is a long and thin rudder, so somebody apparently replaced theirs with a shorter broader one. Thoughts?
Daniel
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That's main. Mail is where bill come from. --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Stan Susman <stanpfa@pacbell.net> wrote: From: Stan Susman <stanpfa@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stalling the rudder To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 11:04 PM Tall and skinny or high aspect ratio shouldn't effect stall unless there's just not enough area. The vagabond is fairly wide aft so the rudder may be getting lifted mostly out of the water and loosing area as the boat heals,again ease the main to get the boat flatter in the water,both foils will work better. Don't worry about a big bubble in the mail,it will still sail just fine.. --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote: From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stalling the rudder To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 10:52 PM Tall and skinny fore and aft, yes. Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:47 PM, Stan Susman wrote:
What do you mean by slender? I guess not fat? or tall and skinny fore and aft?
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stalling the rudder To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 10:38 PM
OK, so I am in my Vagabond and close hauled. Blowing hard. So, under that situation the boat will try to round up as it is overpowered. So, I then have to pull the tiller to windward to compensate, but if the angle of attack becomes too high, then the rudder loses "lift", and no longer is able to overcome the tendency to round up. Is that it? So, a slender rudder will be more likely to do this. OK, I think I get it.
Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:30 PM, Stan Susman wrote:
Daniel, Think of the rudder as an airfoil or as a wing, a wing makes lift, a stall is the loss of lift from too high an angle of attack or too much load. A stall in an airplane is a good deal as when a wing stalls the load on the wing goes down,this is good because it keeps the wing from breaking. Same with a rudder only we have a small problem of loosing directional control, if that's not desirable then lighten the load on the foil (rudder) by letting the main out. Some boats react well to decreasing the aft rake in the mast, moving the center of effort forward and easing the load or side load on the rudder. Google wing lift to learn more. Hope this helps and doesn't cause more head scratching. Stan --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stalling the rudder To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 10:10 PM
I guess what I am asking is, what is stalling a rudder?
Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:36 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
all rudders can stall. the 15 will have weather helm if overpowered (like all boats _should_ when overpowered). she communicates to the person holding the tiller when the sail(s) need to be reduced. i never felt the M15 has any more 'weather helm' characteristics than other craft. she is 'sporty' and light in weight so you really know how the boat is performing. the difference in 'feedback' is marked between the 15 and 17 - both sail similarly, but the 17 is more forgiving and provides less feedback (all relate to size, a few feet long and a wider, and heavier, at least 1200 pounds). i never took my 15 'to the edge'. there are other members that can discuss 'pucker moments'. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA former M15 owner visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I read the review from Small Craft Advisor about the M-15. Really nice review. One thing they say is that the rudder can stall. What does that mean? It is a long and thin rudder, so somebody apparently replaced theirs with a shorter broader one. Thoughts?
Daniel
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Foils, like rudders and sails, work off pressure differentials. They are curved, so when air and water flow past them, lift is generated on one side. More suction than direct pressure. But there has to be a laminar flow past the foil, meaning the media....air or water.......has to maintain contact. When the angle of attack gets too steep, it separates and the flow is lost. It stalls and the lift is lost. Not only that, but when its severe, it creates a tremendous amount of drag, so it acts more like a brake than a foil, so too much weather helm not only makes it difficult to steer, but it also slows you down. A fat foil (full sails or fat, rounded rudder) means more curve, so it generates more lift and the flow holds together longer than say a flat plate would. But it's also speed dependent, which is why you flatten your sails when the wind gets up (and why airplanes raise the flaps once they get off the ground and gain speed and altitude). At speed, those will also generate drag and will stall. We don't get going that fast in sailboats, and our rudders are fixed, so we use a "best in most conditions design" and we live with it. If you have that much weather helm, best to start reducing or trimming sails as it will only slow you down. I don't know about anyone else, but I have more fun going fast than standing on the side of the cockpit, rail under the water, fighting with a boat that wants to round up. (And with the M17 anyway, that is also dependent on the degree of mast rake, which affects center of effort and all that jazz). On Jul 19, 2010, at 12:38 AM, Daniel Rich wrote:
OK, so I am in my Vagabond and close hauled. Blowing hard. So, under that situation the boat will try to round up as it is overpowered. So, I then have to pull the tiller to windward to compensate, but if the angle of attack becomes too high, then the rudder loses "lift", and no longer is able to overcome the tendency to round up. Is that it? So, a slender rudder will be more likely to do this. OK, I think I get it.
Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:30 PM, Stan Susman wrote:
the very VERY simple answer - the rudder no longer controls the boat. slightly more technical - the angle of attack is so great that the water flow across the foil becomes greatly disrupted and the rudder can no longer keep the boat on course. the result is rounding-up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rounding_up (not really a good description of rounding up ... but a start) on this wiki page, about aircraft wings, you can see pictures of a wing cross-section in a stall. the idea is the same - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_(flight) i'll now step away from the podium and allow those with more sailboat design and/or engineering ability to provide more information ... jerry m. maybe can give a better description/details. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I guess what I am asking is, what is stalling a rudder?
Daniel
On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:36 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
all rudders can stall. the 15 will have weather helm if overpowered (like all boats _should_ when overpowered). she communicates to the person holding the tiller when the sail(s) need to be reduced. i never felt the M15 has any more 'weather helm' characteristics than other craft. she is 'sporty' and light in weight so you really know how the boat is performing. the difference in 'feedback' is marked between the 15 and 17 - both sail similarly, but the 17 is more forgiving and provides less feedback (all relate to size, a few feet long and a wider, and heavier, at least 1200 pounds). i never took my 15 'to the edge'. there are other members that can discuss 'pucker moments'.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA former M15 owner visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I read the review from Small Craft Advisor about the M-15. Really nice review. One thing they say is that the rudder can stall. What does that mean? It is a long and thin rudder, so somebody apparently replaced theirs with a shorter >>>broader one. Thoughts?
Daniel
You might look at http://www.sailcenter.nl/v2/zeiltips.php?nr=7 for a nice definition of rudder stall. Bill Day M-15, 363, "Gee Whiz!" On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 10:33 PM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
the very VERY simple answer -
the rudder no longer controls the boat.
slightly more technical -
the angle of attack is so great that the water flow across the foil becomes greatly disrupted and the rudder can no longer keep the boat on course. the result is rounding-up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rounding_up (not really a good description of rounding up ... but a start)
on this wiki page, about aircraft wings, you can see pictures of a wing cross-section in a stall. the idea is the same -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_(flight)<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_%28flight%29>
i'll now step away from the podium and allow those with more sailboat design and/or engineering ability to provide more information ... jerry m. maybe can give a better description/details.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I guess what I am asking is, what is stalling a rudder?
Daniel
On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:36 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
all rudders can stall.
the 15 will have weather helm if overpowered (like all boats _should_ when overpowered). she communicates to the person holding the tiller when the sail(s) need to be reduced. i never felt the M15 has any more 'weather helm' characteristics than other craft. she is 'sporty' and light in weight so you really know how the boat is performing. the difference in 'feedback' is marked between the 15 and 17 - both sail similarly, but the 17 is more forgiving and provides less feedback (all relate to size, a few feet long and a wider, and heavier, at least 1200 pounds).
i never took my 15 'to the edge'. there are other members that can discuss 'pucker moments'.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA former M15 owner visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I read the review from Small Craft Advisor about the M-15. Really nice review. One thing they say is that the rudder can stall. What does that mean? It is a long and thin rudder, so somebody apparently replaced theirs with a shorter >>>broader one. Thoughts?
Daniel
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OK, I think I got it now. Looks good. Today I sailed in winds that were a bit too high for my boat. I don't have reefing, and the boat is not a nice Montgomery! So, it was dicey. But, stayed in control. Daniel On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:33 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
the very VERY simple answer -
the rudder no longer controls the boat.
slightly more technical -
the angle of attack is so great that the water flow across the foil becomes greatly disrupted and the rudder can no longer keep the boat on course. the result is rounding-up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rounding_up (not really a good description of rounding up ... but a start)
on this wiki page, about aircraft wings, you can see pictures of a wing cross-section in a stall. the idea is the same -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_(flight)
i'll now step away from the podium and allow those with more sailboat design and/or engineering ability to provide more information ... jerry m. maybe can give a better description/details.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I guess what I am asking is, what is stalling a rudder?
Daniel
On Jul 18, 2010, at 9:36 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
all rudders can stall.
the 15 will have weather helm if overpowered (like all boats _should_ when overpowered). she communicates to the person holding the tiller when the sail(s) need to be reduced. i never felt the M15 has any more 'weather helm' characteristics than other craft. she is 'sporty' and light in weight so you really know how the boat is performing. the difference in 'feedback' is marked between the 15 and 17 - both sail similarly, but the 17 is more forgiving and provides less feedback (all relate to size, a few feet long and a wider, and heavier, at least 1200 pounds).
i never took my 15 'to the edge'. there are other members that can discuss 'pucker moments'.
dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA former M15 owner visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com
--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I read the review from Small Craft Advisor about the M-15. Really nice review. One thing they say is that the rudder can stall. What does that mean? It is a long and thin rudder, so somebody apparently replaced theirs with a shorter >>>broader one. Thoughts?
Daniel
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
participants (5)
-
Bill Day -
Daniel Rich -
Howard Audsley -
Stan Susman -
W David Scobie