M 23 Keel ballast replacement
Well, it looks like I'm going to embark on the removal and replacement of the steel ballast in my M 23's Keel. I know I won't be the first one who has embarked on this adventure. I plan on following Sean Mulligan's photo journal of his ballast replacement. I'm going to follow his lead (thanks Shawn, don't know what I would do without your photos and written description! ) and plan on doing the following: get the boat on jack stands, cut "Windows" into the side of the keel, remove the old steel punching's, replace approximately with 1200 pounds of lead in layers (each layer encased in polyester resin), seal the whole thing back up again. What I would like to ask the group and particularly anybody else that has performed this task.... Is there any "lessons learned" you might change that would improve this process or outcome? I know from Shawn's photos and documentation that he ended up creating a lead ingots that he stood on end in order to fill the upper portion of the keel. Would it make sense to cut the windows a little higher in order to the get the lead up to a higher level? Or might this compromise the structural integrity of the keel? Shawn used pieces of landscape Bender board to create temporary dams as he built up the lead in layers. I was contemplating if it might make sense to use layers of wetted fiberglass applied on the inside of the keel to help create the dam and also adding some structural integrity back. Does anybody think this has any value or would it be just a waste of time? I found a relatively inexpensive source for the lead at a shooting range. They will sell me the reclaimed lead that has been screened. It has small bits of brass from the bullet jackets. I don't think this will create too much of a problem especially when the lead is encased in polyester resin? I am thinking about buying about thousand pounds of the reclaimed ammunition and also using some of the lead shot to sprinkle in as I go to make sure everything packs in nicely. My sailboat stands arrive in about a week. I have already spoken to the crane guy and plan on having him lift the boat so I can place the stands. Then the fun can begin ;) any advice or prayers are appreciated! Todd Bradley M-23 #86
In for a penny, in for a pound? If you are going to go to that much trouble, it is a very easy process to melt the spent lead to clean it up. I did that with about 700 pounds of old wheel weights last year. Brass, dirt and just about anything else will float on top of the molten lead and can be skimmed off. It is a very easy process. Not only will you clean it up, but you will concentrate it, so it takes up less space. Equipment needed would be an old cast iron dutch oven and an LP fish cooker burner. You can use a lot of things to make your ingots, including small bread pans or even muffin tins. Or find something that resembles the shape of your cavity and use that. And go with epoxy vs. polyester. Howard On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:48 PM, Todd Bradley wrote:
Well, it looks like I'm going to embark on the removal and replacement of the steel ballast in my M 23's Keel.
I know I won't be the first one who has embarked on this adventure. I plan on following Sean Mulligan's photo journal of his ballast replacement. I'm going to follow his lead (thanks Shawn, don't know what I would do without your photos and written description! ) and plan on doing the following: get the boat on jack stands, cut "Windows" into the side of the keel, remove the old steel punching's, replace approximately with 1200 pounds of lead in layers (each layer encased in polyester resin), seal the whole thing back up again.
What I would like to ask the group and particularly anybody else that has performed this task.... Is there any "lessons learned" you might change that would improve this process or outcome?
I know from Shawn's photos and documentation that he ended up creating a lead ingots that he stood on end in order to fill the upper portion of the keel. Would it make sense to cut the windows a little higher in order to the get the lead up to a higher level? Or might this compromise the structural integrity of the keel?
Shawn used pieces of landscape Bender board to create temporary dams as he built up the lead in layers. I was contemplating if it might make sense to use layers of wetted fiberglass applied on the inside of the keel to help create the dam and also adding some structural integrity back. Does anybody think this has any value or would it be just a waste of time?
I found a relatively inexpensive source for the lead at a shooting range. They will sell me the reclaimed lead that has been screened. It has small bits of brass from the bullet jackets. I don't think this will create too much of a problem especially when the lead is encased in polyester resin? I am thinking about buying about thousand pounds of the reclaimed ammunition and also using some of the lead shot to sprinkle in as I go to make sure everything packs in nicely.
My sailboat stands arrive in about a week. I have already spoken to the crane guy and plan on having him lift the boat so I can place the stands. Then the fun can begin ;)
any advice or prayers are appreciated!
Todd Bradley
M-23 #86
Hi Howard, I have considered melting the lead down in order to clean it and make ingots. I watched a bunch of videos and did a research and it doesn't look that complicated. I just need to determine if it worth the extra step of melted everything down. And that will depend on how clean the used ammunition is and how well I think I can get the ingots to fit in tightly as opposed to using the smaller pieces of used ammunition. The reason I was going to use a polyester resin as opposed to epoxy is the cost and for the job I want it to do. I just want to fill up the gaps between the ballast as to make it a water resistant solid mass. Do you think the polyester resin works for this application? Todd Bradley M-23 #86 -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Howard Audsley Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 10:45 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M 23 Keel ballast replacement In for a penny, in for a pound? If you are going to go to that much trouble, it is a very easy process to melt the spent lead to clean it up. I did that with about 700 pounds of old wheel weights last year. Brass, dirt and just about anything else will float on top of the molten lead and can be skimmed off. It is a very easy process. Not only will you clean it up, but you will concentrate it, so it takes up less space. Equipment needed would be an old cast iron dutch oven and an LP fish cooker burner. You can use a lot of things to make your ingots, including small bread pans or even muffin tins. Or find something that resembles the shape of your cavity and use that. And go with epoxy vs. polyester. Howard On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:48 PM, Todd Bradley wrote:
Well, it looks like I'm going to embark on the removal and replacement of the steel ballast in my M 23's Keel.
I know I won't be the first one who has embarked on this adventure. I plan on following Sean Mulligan's photo journal of his ballast replacement. I'm going to follow his lead (thanks Shawn, don't know what I would do without your photos and written description! ) and plan on doing the following: get the boat on jack stands, cut "Windows" into the side of the keel, remove the old steel punching's, replace approximately with 1200 pounds of lead in layers (each layer encased in polyester resin), seal the whole thing back up again.
What I would like to ask the group and particularly anybody else that has performed this task.... Is there any "lessons learned" you might change that would improve this process or outcome?
I know from Shawn's photos and documentation that he ended up creating a lead ingots that he stood on end in order to fill the upper portion of the keel. Would it make sense to cut the windows a little higher in order to the get the lead up to a higher level? Or might this compromise the structural integrity of the keel?
Shawn used pieces of landscape Bender board to create temporary dams as he built up the lead in layers. I was contemplating if it might make sense to use layers of wetted fiberglass applied on the inside of the keel to help create the dam and also adding some structural integrity back. Does anybody think this has any value or would it be just a waste of time?
I found a relatively inexpensive source for the lead at a shooting range. They will sell me the reclaimed lead that has been screened. It has small bits of brass from the bullet jackets. I don't think this will create too much of a problem especially when the lead is encased in polyester resin? I am thinking about buying about thousand pounds of the reclaimed ammunition and also using some of the lead shot to sprinkle in as I go to make sure everything packs in nicely.
My sailboat stands arrive in about a week. I have already spoken to the crane guy and plan on having him lift the boat so I can place the stands. Then the fun can begin ;)
any advice or prayers are appreciated!
Todd Bradley
M-23 #86
When I did the wheel weights, they went from about 7 or 8 five gallon buckets of wheel weights down to lead that would probably fit into less than one full bucket. It compacts down that much when melted down. The added benefit to cleaning it up and compressing it would be you could install it lower in the keel, which I suspect will make it more effective ballast. Melting lead had me really concerned until I tried it. No big deal......EXCEPT........never ever throw anything into already hot molten lead......at least anything that might have water in it. Water will instantly turn to steam and send molten lead flying. Solution is to throw it all in the pot when cold, then fire up the burner and bring it up to temp slowly. You could have all manner of crap in there like wet rusty steel clips, air valves, valve stems, sticks, leaves, dirt, whatever. As the metal heats up, the water boils off and stuff just quietly starts floating on top. No excitement at all........a good thing. I know polyester is less expensive, which is why they use it to do the initial laminations of boats, but I've only used epoxy for repairs. No need to go to the high dollar stuff like West Systems, System 3, MAS, etc. Lessor knowns will do as well. Some I use include: http://boatbuildercentral.com/products.php?cat=41 http://www.raka.com/epoxy.html You can get your glass cloth and thickeners from them as well. Whatever you use, go slow and do several small fills at a time. A large dump of resin will heat up to the point of damaging things. On Nov 11, 2015, at 1:04 PM, Todd Bradley wrote:
Hi Howard, I have considered melting the lead down in order to clean it and make ingots. I watched a bunch of videos and did a research and it doesn't look that complicated.
I just need to determine if it worth the extra step of melted everything down. And that will depend on how clean the used ammunition is and how well I think I can get the ingots to fit in tightly as opposed to using the smaller pieces of used ammunition.
The reason I was going to use a polyester resin as opposed to epoxy is the cost and for the job I want it to do. I just want to fill up the gaps between the ballast as to make it a water resistant solid mass.
Do you think the polyester resin works for this application?
Todd Bradley
M-23 #86
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Howard Audsley Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 10:45 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M 23 Keel ballast replacement
In for a penny, in for a pound?
If you are going to go to that much trouble, it is a very easy process to melt the spent lead to clean it up. I did that with about 700 pounds of old wheel weights last year. Brass, dirt and just about anything else will float on top of the molten lead and can be skimmed off. It is a very easy process. Not only will you clean it up, but you will concentrate it, so it takes up less space.
Equipment needed would be an old cast iron dutch oven and an LP fish cooker burner. You can use a lot of things to make your ingots, including small bread pans or even muffin tins. Or find something that resembles the shape of your cavity and use that.
And go with epoxy vs. polyester.
Howard
On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:48 PM, Todd Bradley wrote:
Well, it looks like I'm going to embark on the removal and replacement of the steel ballast in my M 23's Keel.
I know I won't be the first one who has embarked on this adventure. I plan on following Sean Mulligan's photo journal of his ballast replacement. I'm going to follow his lead (thanks Shawn, don't know what I would do without your photos and written description! ) and plan on doing the following: get the boat on jack stands, cut "Windows" into the side of the keel, remove the old steel punching's, replace approximately with 1200 pounds of lead in layers (each layer encased in polyester resin), seal the whole thing back up again.
What I would like to ask the group and particularly anybody else that has performed this task.... Is there any "lessons learned" you might change that would improve this process or outcome?
I know from Shawn's photos and documentation that he ended up creating a lead ingots that he stood on end in order to fill the upper portion of the keel. Would it make sense to cut the windows a little higher in order to the get the lead up to a higher level? Or might this compromise the structural integrity of the keel?
Shawn used pieces of landscape Bender board to create temporary dams as he built up the lead in layers. I was contemplating if it might make sense to use layers of wetted fiberglass applied on the inside of the keel to help create the dam and also adding some structural integrity back. Does anybody think this has any value or would it be just a waste of time?
I found a relatively inexpensive source for the lead at a shooting range. They will sell me the reclaimed lead that has been screened. It has small bits of brass from the bullet jackets. I don't think this will create too much of a problem especially when the lead is encased in polyester resin? I am thinking about buying about thousand pounds of the reclaimed ammunition and also using some of the lead shot to sprinkle in as I go to make sure everything packs in nicely.
My sailboat stands arrive in about a week. I have already spoken to the crane guy and plan on having him lift the boat so I can place the stands. Then the fun can begin ;)
any advice or prayers are appreciated!
Todd Bradley
M-23 #86
On 11/11/2015 11:52 AM, Howard Audsley wrote: ...
I know polyester is less expensive, which is why they use it to do the initial laminations of boats, but I've only used epoxy for repairs.
Historically, polyester resin (and the usual MEKP catalys) is nasty nasty toxic. Skin contact, vapor, everything; you'd want to wear tyvek suit, serious gloves, and a serious respirator rated for the nasty vapors polyester resin puts off. I see there are some "low VOC" marketed products now; here's the MSDS for what appears to be a major brand for surfboards: http://solarez.com/product_images/msds/MSDS_Solarez.pdf ...see section VI and IX for 'health hazard data' and 'special protection information' - sounds like it's still pretty nasty, even if "low VOC." Generally polyester is cheaper, more prone to linear shrinkage, and way more toxic to work with; epoxy is more expensive, less prone to any shrinkage, and most modern quality brands (West, Sys. III, etc.) are essentially zero VOC and (relatively!) safe to work with (you don't want it on you, inside or out, but respirator not needed, etc.). Either one will get hot enough to cause damage when curing if you're using it as a space-filler and pour too much volume at once. There may be some very sloooow cure flavors available for those purposes. You could presumably use filler material (microballons, etc.) in your batches that are just for filling extra space and cut down on amount of resin needed for fill. cheers, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi Todd, I have not seen any of the background of why you are replacing the ballast. I can tell you that my steel M-23 center board was not coming down early in my ownership of the boat and it turned out to be scaling from the rust of the center board. Once I removed, soda blasted, faired, coated and painted the board all has been well for many years. If you plan on removing the board I have done the twice myself and may be able to offer some suggestions. All the best, Robbin M-23 Pinch me On 11/5/2015 11:48 PM, Todd Bradley wrote:
Well, it looks like I'm going to embark on the removal and replacement of the steel ballast in my M 23's Keel.
I know I won't be the first one who has embarked on this adventure. I plan on following Sean Mulligan's photo journal of his ballast replacement. I'm going to follow his lead (thanks Shawn, don't know what I would do without your photos and written description! ) and plan on doing the following: get the boat on jack stands, cut "Windows" into the side of the keel, remove the old steel punching's, replace approximately with 1200 pounds of lead in layers (each layer encased in polyester resin), seal the whole thing back up again.
What I would like to ask the group and particularly anybody else that has performed this task.... Is there any "lessons learned" you might change that would improve this process or outcome?
I know from Shawn's photos and documentation that he ended up creating a lead ingots that he stood on end in order to fill the upper portion of the keel. Would it make sense to cut the windows a little higher in order to the get the lead up to a higher level? Or might this compromise the structural integrity of the keel?
Shawn used pieces of landscape Bender board to create temporary dams as he built up the lead in layers. I was contemplating if it might make sense to use layers of wetted fiberglass applied on the inside of the keel to help create the dam and also adding some structural integrity back. Does anybody think this has any value or would it be just a waste of time?
I found a relatively inexpensive source for the lead at a shooting range. They will sell me the reclaimed lead that has been screened. It has small bits of brass from the bullet jackets. I don't think this will create too much of a problem especially when the lead is encased in polyester resin? I am thinking about buying about thousand pounds of the reclaimed ammunition and also using some of the lead shot to sprinkle in as I go to make sure everything packs in nicely.
My sailboat stands arrive in about a week. I have already spoken to the crane guy and plan on having him lift the boat so I can place the stands. Then the fun can begin ;)
any advice or prayers are appreciated!
Todd Bradley
M-23 #86
participants (4)
-
Howard Audsley -
John Schinnerer -
Robbin Roddewig -
Todd Bradley