Shouldn't be any friction. The car runs on ball bearings. Sounds like something doesn't fit right. The end caps do shorten the track an inch or so on each side, compared to a standard cap, but I would recommend them. When you release the car to dump the wind in a gust the car will slam down to the low side very hard. The heavy duty end cap is padded with a two bolt mount, assuring that you're not going to break anything. It might seem like a two foot track isn't worth much, but it makes a real difference in sail trim just moving the car a short distance. Larry On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:36:37 -0400 Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> writes:
Larry,
Your setup is what I first had in mind. I thought of adding the turning block to keep the line low like in the Harken pictures, but your reasoning (and experience) seem to show it's not necessary. The reason I wasn't planning to use the Harken endstops is that they seem to cut several inches off the distance the car can travel. Is this a problem?
Thanks for the help. A picture's worth a lot of words.
By the way, there seems to be a lot of friction between car and track. Does this free up with use?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Wednesday, March 14, 2012, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
I will only have 2:1 - the deck block is only a direction changer so I can pull the car to windward from a seated position. The return to the becket tube is in accordance with the Harken instructions, adjusted so the car doesn't hit the other end of the track.
Larry, i want the car to be able to travel right to the end of the track. If the stop knot in the becket tube doesn't do the job I thought of glueing a heavy rubber pad to the cockpit side to take the impact. Would this work?
Rick, I have attached a picture of my rig. With this simple layout I can pull the car to windward easily in the strongest of wind conditions. No need to complicate things with extra blocks and lines. If I follow your plan correctly, you will be running the release line through a turning block near the end of the track. The problem I see with that is it will restrict your ability to yank the line up out of the cleat if you suddenly want to release the car. In gusty weather, if I have the car to windward at all, I sail with the release line in my hand instead of the mainsheet. Yanking it out of the cleat drops the car to leeward instantly, which dumps a lot of the air out of the main without destroying the sail shape like releasing the mainsheet will. Larry
I ran the car on the track again and it works fine. Don't know what I was doing wrong before. Larry, you have convinced me to lose the turning blocks and use the endcaps, so my setup is going to look a lot like yours. I appreciate all the input I've had on this. Great bunch of people, Montgomery owners! BTW, can anyone recommend a good, fast, epoxy for filling holes? Thanks, Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Thursday, March 15, 2012, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
Shouldn't be any friction. The car runs on ball bearings. Sounds like something doesn't fit right.
The end caps do shorten the track an inch or so on each side, compared to a standard cap, but I would recommend them. When you release the car to dump the wind in a gust the car will slam down to the low side very hard. The heavy duty end cap is padded with a two bolt mount, assuring that you're not going to break anything.
It might seem like a two foot track isn't worth much, but it makes a real difference in sail trim just moving the car a short distance.
Larry
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:36:37 -0400 Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> writes:
Larry,
Your setup is what I first had in mind. I thought of adding the turning block to keep the line low like in the Harken pictures, but your reasoning (and experience) seem to show it's not necessary. The reason I wasn't planning to use the Harken endstops is that they seem to cut several inches off the distance the car can travel. Is this a problem?
Thanks for the help. A picture's worth a lot of words.
By the way, there seems to be a lot of friction between car and track. Does this free up with use?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Wednesday, March 14, 2012, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
I will only have 2:1 - the deck block is only a direction changer so I can pull the car to windward from a seated position. The return to the becket tube is in accordance with the Harken instructions, adjusted so the car doesn't hit the other end of the track.
Larry, i want the car to be able to travel right to the end of the track. If the stop knot in the becket tube doesn't do the job I thought of glueing a heavy rubber pad to the cockpit side to take the impact. Would this work?
Rick, I have attached a picture of my rig. With this simple layout I can pull the car to windward easily in the strongest of wind conditions. No need to complicate things with extra blocks and lines. If I follow your plan correctly, you will be running the release line through a turning block near the end of the track. The problem I see with that is it will restrict your ability to yank the line up out of the cleat if you suddenly want to release the car. In gusty weather, if I have the car to windward at all, I sail with the release line in my hand instead of the mainsheet. Yanking it out of the cleat drops the car to leeward instantly, which dumps a lot of the air out of the main without destroying the sail shape like releasing the mainsheet will. Larry
rick: for simplicity (the pump system instead of all the measuring/weighing) i recommend West System with the 'fast' (#205) hardener. you will not need a whole lot ... so if you can find someone (or many someones) in your area that needs to do some 'resin work' you can purchase the resin/hardener/pumps together. :: Dave Scobie :: Sage Marine --- On Thu, 3/15/12, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
... can anyone recommend a good, fast, epoxy for filling holes?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
Thanks, Dave. Sure makes projects less intimidating knowing that Team Montgomery has got your back. Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Thursday, March 15, 2012, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
rick:
for simplicity (the pump system instead of all the measuring/weighing) i recommend West System with the 'fast' (#205) hardener.
you will not need a whole lot ... so if you can find someone (or many someones) in your area that needs to do some 'resin work' you can purchase the resin/hardener/pumps together.
:: Dave Scobie :: Sage Marine
--- On Thu, 3/15/12, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
... can anyone recommend a good, fast, epoxy for filling holes?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
You might try and get WM to give you some samples. I picked up a handfull of West System samples. They came in paired packets about the size of ketchup packets at the drive thru. If they can't accomodate you, you can always get them online from West Systems but then there's the cost, about $21 for 6 packets. But if you don't do much of this type of work it may be cheaper in the long run. I used one packet to back fill 4 holes that I made on the cabin top. I had plenty left over... probably could have done a dozen. Joe SeaFrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Davies To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:46 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: epoxy for filling holes? Thanks, Dave. Sure makes projects less intimidating knowing that Team Montgomery has got your back. Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Thursday, March 15, 2012, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
rick:
for simplicity (the pump system instead of all the measuring/weighing) i recommend West System with the 'fast' (#205) hardener.
you will not need a whole lot ... so if you can find someone (or many someones) in your area that needs to do some 'resin work' you can purchase the resin/hardener/pumps together.
:: Dave Scobie :: Sage Marine
--- On Thu, 3/15/12, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
... can anyone recommend a good, fast, epoxy for filling holes?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
System Three makes a good product as well, and there are trial kits available for pretty cheap (go to their website for details...). I was just looking at West Systems products at West Marine yesterday. Man, that stuff is pricy. I used some old West Systems resin and harder I had hanging around (like for years, not months...) to fair a small area that was nicked out of my cb just last week. Worked great with one of their fillers (though it took longer to cure than I expected). t
Larry, You actually don't lose much if any travel over the original pinstop car, which was limited by the pinhole positions, not the track length. I was hoping to gain a little. Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
Shouldn't be any friction. The car runs on ball bearings. Sounds like something doesn't fit right.
The end caps do shorten the track an inch or so on each side, compared to a standard cap, but I would recommend them. When you release the car to dump the wind in a gust the car will slam down to the low side very hard. The heavy duty end cap is padded with a two bolt mount, assuring that you're not going to break anything.
It might seem like a two foot track isn't worth much, but it makes a real difference in sail trim just moving the car a short distance.
Larry
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:36:37 -0400 Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> writes:
Larry,
Your setup is what I first had in mind. I thought of adding the turning block to keep the line low like in the Harken pictures, but your reasoning (and experience) seem to show it's not necessary. The reason I wasn't planning to use the Harken endstops is that they seem to cut several inches off the distance the car can travel. Is this a problem?
Thanks for the help. A picture's worth a lot of words.
By the way, there seems to be a lot of friction between car and track. Does this free up with use?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Wednesday, March 14, 2012, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
I will only have 2:1 - the deck block is only a direction changer so I can pull the car to windward from a seated position. The return to the becket tube is in accordance with the Harken instructions, adjusted so the car doesn't hit the other end of the track.
Larry, i want the car to be able to travel right to the end of the track. If the stop knot in the becket tube doesn't do the job I thought of glueing a heavy rubber pad to the cockpit side to take the impact. Would this work?
Rick, I have attached a picture of my rig. With this simple layout I can pull the car to windward easily in the strongest of wind conditions. No need to complicate things with extra blocks and lines. If I follow your plan correctly, you will be running the release line through a turning block near the end of the track. The problem I see with that is it will restrict your ability to yank the line up out of the cleat if you suddenly want to release the car. In gusty weather, if I have the car to windward at all, I sail with the release line in my hand instead of the mainsheet. Yanking it out of the cleat drops the car to leeward instantly, which dumps a lot of the air out of the main without destroying the sail shape like releasing the mainsheet will. Larry
I'm all in favor of controllable travellers and wouldn't be without one, but in my mind the value is in being able to pull the tra\veller to weather in light and sometimes moderate air- not in the ability to letting it off off the wind, which is better done with a vang. I like to control it with a block and cleat at each end, so when you tack you can pull it UP quickly, from the weather side. If you use an endless control line you can pop it off on the other side as you tighten it. Dave- can you senmd a pic of how you do it on the Sage, which is the same as I used to do on the M -17 as an optiion? jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Davies" <jdavies104@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:36 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Harken windward sheeting traveler
Larry,
You actually don't lose much if any travel over the original pinstop car, which was limited by the pinhole positions, not the track length. I was hoping to gain a little.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
Shouldn't be any friction. The car runs on ball bearings. Sounds like something doesn't fit right.
The end caps do shorten the track an inch or so on each side, compared to a standard cap, but I would recommend them. When you release the car to dump the wind in a gust the car will slam down to the low side very hard. The heavy duty end cap is padded with a two bolt mount, assuring that you're not going to break anything.
It might seem like a two foot track isn't worth much, but it makes a real difference in sail trim just moving the car a short distance.
Larry
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:36:37 -0400 Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> writes:
Larry,
Your setup is what I first had in mind. I thought of adding the turning block to keep the line low like in the Harken pictures, but your reasoning (and experience) seem to show it's not necessary. The reason I wasn't planning to use the Harken endstops is that they seem to cut several inches off the distance the car can travel. Is this a problem?
Thanks for the help. A picture's worth a lot of words.
By the way, there seems to be a lot of friction between car and track. Does this free up with use?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Wednesday, March 14, 2012, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
I will only have 2:1 - the deck block is only a direction changer so I can pull the car to windward from a seated position. The return to the becket tube is in accordance with the Harken instructions, adjusted so the car doesn't hit the other end of the track.
Larry, i want the car to be able to travel right to the end of the track. If the stop knot in the becket tube doesn't do the job I thought of glueing a heavy rubber pad to the cockpit side to take the impact. Would this work?
Rick, I have attached a picture of my rig. With this simple layout I can pull the car to windward easily in the strongest of wind conditions. No need to complicate things with extra blocks and lines. If I follow your plan correctly, you will be running the release line through a turning block near the end of the track. The problem I see with that is it will restrict your ability to yank the line up out of the cleat if you suddenly want to release the car. In gusty weather, if I have the car to windward at all, I sail with the release line in my hand instead of the mainsheet. Yanking it out of the cleat drops the car to leeward instantly, which dumps a lot of the air out of the main without destroying the sail shape like releasing the mainsheet will. Larry
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 6303 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message
Continuous line on a standard car does work well as Jerry mentioned. A windward sheeting car's value is in being able to bring the car to windward without uncleating the leeward line. It is just a further development. Playing them is really the same. If you are working to windward in gusty conditions, steering up in the puffs/gusts would be my choice to depower, vs easing the traveller or mainsheet. This also gets you higher on your course and allows you to aim lower later vs. having to tack up later when you can't quite make your waypoint/target etc. If you have to hold a particular course or have no room to head up, then you will have ease something, or just heel a bit more and hang on for the moment. (or have reefed earlier). Ain't it fun? Can't wait to get back on the water. Bill On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 2:47 PM, jerry montgomery <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org
wrote:
I'm all in favor of controllable travellers and wouldn't be without one, but in my mind the value is in being able to pull the tra\veller to weather in light and sometimes moderate air- not in the ability to letting it off off the wind, which is better done with a vang.
I like to control it with a block and cleat at each end, so when you tack you can pull it UP quickly, from the weather side. If you use an endless control line you can pop it off on the other side as you tighten it.
Dave- can you senmd a pic of how you do it on the Sage, which is the same as I used to do on the M -17 as an optiion?
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Davies" <jdavies104@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.** xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:36 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Harken windward sheeting traveler
Larry,
You actually don't lose much if any travel over the original pinstop car, which was limited by the pinhole positions, not the track length. I was hoping to gain a little.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
Shouldn't be any friction. The car runs on ball bearings. Sounds like
something doesn't fit right.
The end caps do shorten the track an inch or so on each side, compared to a standard cap, but I would recommend them. When you release the car to dump the wind in a gust the car will slam down to the low side very hard. The heavy duty end cap is padded with a two bolt mount, assuring that you're not going to break anything.
It might seem like a two foot track isn't worth much, but it makes a real difference in sail trim just moving the car a short distance.
Larry
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:36:37 -0400 Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> writes:
Larry,
Your setup is what I first had in mind. I thought of adding the turning block to keep the line low like in the Harken pictures, but your reasoning (and experience) seem to show it's not necessary. The reason I wasn't planning to use the Harken endstops is that they seem to cut several inches off the distance the car can travel. Is this a problem?
Thanks for the help. A picture's worth a lot of words.
By the way, there seems to be a lot of friction between car and track. Does this free up with use?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Wednesday, March 14, 2012, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
>I will only have 2:1 - the deck block is only a direction changer so I can pull the car to windward from a seated position. The return to the becket tube is in accordance with the Harken instructions, adjusted so the car doesn't hit the other end of the track.
>Larry, i want the car to be able to travel right to the end of the track. If the stop knot in the becket tube doesn't do the job I thought of glueing a heavy rubber pad to the cockpit side to take the impact. Would this work?
Rick, I have attached a picture of my rig. With this simple layout I can pull the car to windward easily in the strongest of wind conditions. No need to complicate things with extra blocks and lines. If I follow your plan correctly, you will be running the release line through a turning block near the end of the track. The problem I see with that is it will restrict your ability to yank the line up out of the cleat if you suddenly want to release the car. In gusty weather, if I have the car to windward at all, I sail with the release line in my hand instead of the mainsheet. Yanking it out of the cleat drops the car to leeward instantly, which dumps a lot of the air out of the main without destroying the sail shape like releasing the mainsheet will. Larry
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The 1978 M17 "Audasea" came to me with such a traveler system on it. I use it as Bill suggests. About 6 or 7 years ago, I was testing a self steering windvane I built and installed and was testing it on a day when winds were a steady 25 knots and gusting much higher. I was double reefed and had my 65% storm jib up and she was handling it OK, but was heeling 15 to 20 degrees and more in the gusts. In an attempt to ease the strain, I flattened the main as much as possible and let the traveler go to leeward......the so called "fishermans' reef". Again, she was handling it ok and the vane was steering with no help from me, which was a good thing, since I was videotaping the whole thing. It wasn't until I got the video tape home and was studying the action of the vane did I realize the vane was steering in response to LEE helm. She was actually falling off in the puffs and gusts. The vane was having to bring her back up, vs. countering weather helm as you normally would expect. A bad way to work your way to weather. So I'd agree, don't let the traveler off so far she fails to round up in a puff. Lastly, in normal conditions, when frequently tacking, you can set the traveler amidships and not worry about it. I sail in tight conditions and that is how I have it set most of the time. All I need is a backstay adjuster and I'd have every complication the rig has to offer! Howard 1978 M17 #278 On Mar 15, 2012, at 2:12 PM, Bill Wickett wrote:
Continuous line on a standard car does work well as Jerry mentioned. A windward sheeting car's value is in being able to bring the car to windward without uncleating the leeward line. It is just a further development. Playing them is really the same.
If you are working to windward in gusty conditions, steering up in the puffs/gusts would be my choice to depower, vs easing the traveller or mainsheet. This also gets you higher on your course and allows you to aim lower later vs. having to tack up later when you can't quite make your waypoint/target etc. If you have to hold a particular course or have no room to head up, then you will have ease something, or just heel a bit more and hang on for the moment. (or have reefed earlier).
Ain't it fun? Can't wait to get back on the water.
Bill
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 2:47 PM, jerry montgomery <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org
wrote:
I'm all in favor of controllable travellers and wouldn't be without one, but in my mind the value is in being able to pull the tra\veller to weather in light and sometimes moderate air- not in the ability to letting it off off the wind, which is better done with a vang.
I like to control it with a block and cleat at each end, so when you tack you can pull it UP quickly, from the weather side. If you use an endless control line you can pop it off on the other side as you tighten it.
Dave- can you senmd a pic of how you do it on the Sage, which is the same as I used to do on the M -17 as an optiion?
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Davies" <jdavies104@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.** xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:36 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Harken windward sheeting traveler
Larry,
You actually don't lose much if any travel over the original pinstop car, which was limited by the pinhole positions, not the track length. I was hoping to gain a little.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
Shouldn't be any friction. The car runs on ball bearings. Sounds like
something doesn't fit right.
The end caps do shorten the track an inch or so on each side, compared to a standard cap, but I would recommend them. When you release the car to dump the wind in a gust the car will slam down to the low side very hard. The heavy duty end cap is padded with a two bolt mount, assuring that you're not going to break anything.
It might seem like a two foot track isn't worth much, but it makes a real difference in sail trim just moving the car a short distance.
Larry
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:36:37 -0400 Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> writes:
Larry,
Your setup is what I first had in mind. I thought of adding the turning block to keep the line low like in the Harken pictures, but your reasoning (and experience) seem to show it's not necessary. The reason I wasn't planning to use the Harken endstops is that they seem to cut several inches off the distance the car can travel. Is this a problem?
Thanks for the help. A picture's worth a lot of words.
By the way, there seems to be a lot of friction between car and track. Does this free up with use?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Wednesday, March 14, 2012, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
>> I will only have 2:1 - the deck block is only a direction changer so I can pull the car to windward from a seated position. The return to the becket tube is in accordance with the Harken instructions, adjusted so the car doesn't hit the other end of the track.
>> Larry, i want the car to be able to travel right to the end of the track. If the stop knot in the becket tube doesn't do the job I thought of glueing a heavy rubber pad to the cockpit side to take the impact. Would this work?
Rick, I have attached a picture of my rig. With this simple layout I can pull the car to windward easily in the strongest of wind conditions. No need to complicate things with extra blocks and lines. If I follow your plan correctly, you will be running the release line through a turning block near the end of the track. The problem I see with that is it will restrict your ability to yank the line up out of the cleat if you suddenly want to release the car. In gusty weather, if I have the car to windward at all, I sail with the release line in my hand instead of the mainsheet. Yanking it out of the cleat drops the car to leeward instantly, which dumps a lot of the air out of the main without destroying the sail shape like releasing the mainsheet will. Larry
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Hi Attached per discussion. cheers, Shawn Boles Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) Still for sale...Price is firm. Yar. Jerry can sure build 'em. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:13 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Harken windward sheeting traveler Continuous line on a standard car does work well as Jerry mentioned. A windward sheeting car's value is in being able to bring the car to windward without uncleating the leeward line. It is just a further development. Playing them is really the same. If you are working to windward in gusty conditions, steering up in the puffs/gusts would be my choice to depower, vs easing the traveller or mainsheet. This also gets you higher on your course and allows you to aim lower later vs. having to tack up later when you can't quite make your waypoint/target etc. If you have to hold a particular course or have no room to head up, then you will have ease something, or just heel a bit more and hang on for the moment. (or have reefed earlier). Ain't it fun? Can't wait to get back on the water. Bill On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 2:47 PM, jerry montgomery <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org
wrote:
I'm all in favor of controllable travellers and wouldn't be without one, but in my mind the value is in being able to pull the tra\veller to weather in light and sometimes moderate air- not in the ability to letting it off off the wind, which is better done with a vang.
I like to control it with a block and cleat at each end, so when you tack you can pull it UP quickly, from the weather side. If you use an endless control line you can pop it off on the other side as you tighten it.
Dave- can you senmd a pic of how you do it on the Sage, which is the same as I used to do on the M -17 as an optiion?
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Davies" <jdavies104@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.** xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:36 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Harken windward sheeting traveler
Larry,
You actually don't lose much if any travel over the original pinstop car, which was limited by the pinhole positions, not the track length. I was hoping to gain a little.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
Shouldn't be any friction. The car runs on ball bearings. Sounds like
something doesn't fit right.
The end caps do shorten the track an inch or so on each side, compared to a standard cap, but I would recommend them. When you release the car to dump the wind in a gust the car will slam down to the low side very hard. The heavy duty end cap is padded with a two bolt mount, assuring that you're not going to break anything.
It might seem like a two foot track isn't worth much, but it makes a real difference in sail trim just moving the car a short distance.
Larry
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:36:37 -0400 Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> writes:
Larry,
Your setup is what I first had in mind. I thought of adding the turning block to keep the line low like in the Harken pictures, but your reasoning (and experience) seem to show it's not necessary. The reason I wasn't planning to use the Harken endstops is that they seem to cut several inches off the distance the car can travel. Is this a problem?
Thanks for the help. A picture's worth a lot of words.
By the way, there seems to be a lot of friction between car and track. Does this free up with use?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Wednesday, March 14, 2012, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
>I will only have 2:1 - the deck block is only a direction changer so I can pull the car to windward from a seated position. The return to the becket tube is in accordance with the Harken instructions, adjusted so the car doesn't hit the other end of the track.
>Larry, i want the car to be able to travel right to the end of the track. If the stop knot in the becket tube doesn't do the job I thought of glueing a heavy rubber pad to the cockpit side to take the impact. Would this work?
Rick, I have attached a picture of my rig. With this simple layout I can pull the car to windward easily in the strongest of wind conditions. No need to complicate things with extra blocks and lines. If I follow your plan correctly, you will be running the release line through a turning block near the end of the track. The problem I see with that is it will restrict your ability to yank the line up out of the cleat if you suddenly want to release the car. In gusty weather, if I have the car to windward at all, I sail with the release line in my hand instead of the mainsheet. Yanking it out of the cleat drops the car to leeward instantly, which dumps a lot of the air out of the main without destroying the sail shape like releasing the mainsheet will. Larry
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Hey Shawn, Would like to see a pic of your companion way doors. Just a teaser showing in your traveller pic. Also notice your traveller is right forward in the cockpit. Did you also move the boom attachment point forward? Thanks. Bill On 3/15/12, Shawn Boles <shawn@ori.org> wrote:
Hi
Attached per discussion.
cheers, Shawn Boles Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) Still for sale...Price is firm. Yar. Jerry can sure build 'em.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:13 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Harken windward sheeting traveler
Continuous line on a standard car does work well as Jerry mentioned. A windward sheeting car's value is in being able to bring the car to windward without uncleating the leeward line. It is just a further development. Playing them is really the same.
If you are working to windward in gusty conditions, steering up in the puffs/gusts would be my choice to depower, vs easing the traveller or mainsheet. This also gets you higher on your course and allows you to aim lower later vs. having to tack up later when you can't quite make your waypoint/target etc. If you have to hold a particular course or have no room to head up, then you will have ease something, or just heel a bit more and hang on for the moment. (or have reefed earlier).
Ain't it fun? Can't wait to get back on the water.
Bill
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 2:47 PM, jerry montgomery <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org
wrote:
I'm all in favor of controllable travellers and wouldn't be without one, but in my mind the value is in being able to pull the tra\veller to weather in light and sometimes moderate air- not in the ability to letting it off off the wind, which is better done with a vang.
I like to control it with a block and cleat at each end, so when you tack you can pull it UP quickly, from the weather side. If you use an endless control line you can pop it off on the other side as you tighten it.
Dave- can you senmd a pic of how you do it on the Sage, which is the same as I used to do on the M -17 as an optiion?
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Davies" <jdavies104@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.** xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:36 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Harken windward sheeting traveler
Larry,
You actually don't lose much if any travel over the original pinstop car, which was limited by the pinhole positions, not the track length. I was hoping to gain a little.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
Shouldn't be any friction. The car runs on ball bearings. Sounds like
something doesn't fit right.
The end caps do shorten the track an inch or so on each side, compared to a standard cap, but I would recommend them. When you release the car to dump the wind in a gust the car will slam down to the low side very hard. The heavy duty end cap is padded with a two bolt mount, assuring that you're not going to break anything.
It might seem like a two foot track isn't worth much, but it makes a real difference in sail trim just moving the car a short distance.
Larry
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:36:37 -0400 Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> writes:
Larry,
Your setup is what I first had in mind. I thought of adding the turning block to keep the line low like in the Harken pictures, but your reasoning (and experience) seem to show it's not necessary. The reason I wasn't planning to use the Harken endstops is that they seem to cut several inches off the distance the car can travel. Is this a problem?
Thanks for the help. A picture's worth a lot of words.
By the way, there seems to be a lot of friction between car and track. Does this free up with use?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Wednesday, March 14, 2012, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
>>I will only have 2:1 - the deck block is only a direction changer so I can pull the car to windward from a seated position. The return to the becket tube is in accordance with the Harken instructions, adjusted so the car doesn't hit the other end of the track.
>>Larry, i want the car to be able to travel right to the end of the track. If the stop knot in the becket tube doesn't do the job I thought of glueing a heavy rubber pad to the cockpit side to take the impact. Would this work?
Rick, I have attached a picture of my rig. With this simple layout I can pull the car to windward easily in the strongest of wind conditions. No need to complicate things with extra blocks and lines. If I follow your plan correctly, you will be running the release line through a turning block near the end of the track. The problem I see with that is it will restrict your ability to yank the line up out of the cleat if you suddenly want to release the car. In gusty weather, if I have the car to windward at all, I sail with the release line in my hand instead of the mainsheet. Yanking it out of the cleat drops the car to leeward instantly, which dumps a lot of the air out of the main without destroying the sail shape like releasing the mainsheet will. Larry
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The travelers in the older M17s were installed at this forward location... t On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Bill Wickett <billwick@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey Shawn,
Would like to see a pic of your companion way doors. Just a teaser showing in your traveller pic. Also notice your traveller is right forward in the cockpit. Did you also move the boom attachment point forward? Thanks. Bill
On 3/15/12, Shawn Boles <shawn@ori.org> wrote:
Hi
Attached per discussion.
cheers, Shawn Boles Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) Still for sale...Price is firm. Yar. Jerry can sure build 'em.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:13 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Harken windward sheeting traveler
Continuous line on a standard car does work well as Jerry mentioned. A windward sheeting car's value is in being able to bring the car to windward without uncleating the leeward line. It is just a further development. Playing them is really the same.
If you are working to windward in gusty conditions, steering up in the puffs/gusts would be my choice to depower, vs easing the traveller or mainsheet. This also gets you higher on your course and allows you to aim lower later vs. having to tack up later when you can't quite make your waypoint/target etc. If you have to hold a particular course or have no room to head up, then you will have ease something, or just heel a bit more and hang on for the moment. (or have reefed earlier).
Ain't it fun? Can't wait to get back on the water.
Bill
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 2:47 PM, jerry montgomery <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org
wrote:
I'm all in favor of controllable travellers and wouldn't be without one, but in my mind the value is in being able to pull the tra\veller to weather in light and sometimes moderate air- not in the ability to letting it off off the wind, which is better done with a vang.
I like to control it with a block and cleat at each end, so when you tack you can pull it UP quickly, from the weather side. If you use an endless control line you can pop it off on the other side as you tighten it.
Dave- can you senmd a pic of how you do it on the Sage, which is the same as I used to do on the M -17 as an optiion?
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Davies" <jdavies104@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.** xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:36 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Harken windward sheeting traveler
Larry,
You actually don't lose much if any travel over the original pinstop car, which was limited by the pinhole positions, not the track length. I was hoping to gain a little.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
Shouldn't be any friction. The car runs on ball bearings. Sounds like
something doesn't fit right.
The end caps do shorten the track an inch or so on each side, compared to a standard cap, but I would recommend them. When you release the car to dump the wind in a gust the car will slam down to the low side very hard. The heavy duty end cap is padded with a two bolt mount, assuring that you're not going to break anything.
It might seem like a two foot track isn't worth much, but it makes a real difference in sail trim just moving the car a short distance.
Larry
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:36:37 -0400 Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> writes:
Larry,
Your setup is what I first had in mind. I thought of adding the turning block to keep the line low like in the Harken pictures, but your reasoning (and experience) seem to show it's not necessary. The reason I wasn't planning to use the Harken endstops is that they seem to cut several inches off the distance the car can travel. Is this a problem?
Thanks for the help. A picture's worth a lot of words.
By the way, there seems to be a lot of friction between car and track. Does this free up with use?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Wednesday, March 14, 2012, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote: >>>I will only have 2:1 - the deck block is only a direction changer so I > can > pull the car to windward from a seated position. The return to the > becket > tube is in accordance with the Harken instructions, adjusted so the car > doesn't hit the other end of the track. > >>>Larry, i want the car to be able to travel right to the end of the > track. > If the stop knot in the becket tube doesn't do the job I thought of > glueing a heavy rubber pad to the cockpit side to take the impact. Would > this work? > > Rick, > I have attached a picture of my rig. With this simple layout I can pull > the car to windward easily in the strongest of wind conditions. No need > to complicate things with extra blocks and lines. If I follow your plan > correctly, you will be running the release line through a turning block > near the end of the track. The problem I see with that is it will > restrict your ability to yank the line up out of the cleat if you > suddenly want to release the car. In gusty weather, if I have the car to > windward at all, I sail with the release line in my hand instead of the > mainsheet. Yanking it out of the cleat drops the car to leeward > instantly, which dumps a lot of the air out of the main without > destroying the sail shape like releasing the mainsheet will. > Larry
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Hi Bill: No did not change boom point. This link should work for pics of boat including companion way doors. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150297389677141.354244.593022140&... Cheers, Shawn -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:13 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Harken windward sheeting traveler Hey Shawn, Would like to see a pic of your companion way doors. Just a teaser showing in your traveller pic. Also notice your traveller is right forward in the cockpit. Did you also move the boom attachment point forward? Thanks. Bill On 3/15/12, Shawn Boles <shawn@ori.org> wrote:
Hi
Attached per discussion.
cheers, Shawn Boles Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) Still for sale...Price is firm. Yar. Jerry can sure build 'em.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:13 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Harken windward sheeting traveler
Continuous line on a standard car does work well as Jerry mentioned. A windward sheeting car's value is in being able to bring the car to windward without uncleating the leeward line. It is just a further development. Playing them is really the same.
If you are working to windward in gusty conditions, steering up in the puffs/gusts would be my choice to depower, vs easing the traveller or mainsheet. This also gets you higher on your course and allows you to aim lower later vs. having to tack up later when you can't quite make your waypoint/target etc. If you have to hold a particular course or have no room to head up, then you will have ease something, or just heel a bit more and hang on for the moment. (or have reefed earlier).
Ain't it fun? Can't wait to get back on the water.
Bill
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 2:47 PM, jerry montgomery <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org
wrote:
I'm all in favor of controllable travellers and wouldn't be without one, but in my mind the value is in being able to pull the tra\veller to weather in light and sometimes moderate air- not in the ability to letting it off off the wind, which is better done with a vang.
I like to control it with a block and cleat at each end, so when you tack you can pull it UP quickly, from the weather side. If you use an endless control line you can pop it off on the other side as you tighten it.
Dave- can you senmd a pic of how you do it on the Sage, which is the same as I used to do on the M -17 as an optiion?
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Davies" <jdavies104@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.** xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:36 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Harken windward sheeting traveler
Larry,
You actually don't lose much if any travel over the original pinstop car, which was limited by the pinhole positions, not the track length. I was hoping to gain a little.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
Shouldn't be any friction. The car runs on ball bearings. Sounds like
something doesn't fit right.
The end caps do shorten the track an inch or so on each side, compared to a standard cap, but I would recommend them. When you release the car to dump the wind in a gust the car will slam down to the low side very hard. The heavy duty end cap is padded with a two bolt mount, assuring that you're not going to break anything.
It might seem like a two foot track isn't worth much, but it makes a real difference in sail trim just moving the car a short distance.
Larry
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:36:37 -0400 Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> writes:
Larry,
Your setup is what I first had in mind. I thought of adding the turning block to keep the line low like in the Harken pictures, but your reasoning (and experience) seem to show it's not necessary. The reason I wasn't planning to use the Harken endstops is that they seem to cut several inches off the distance the car can travel. Is this a problem?
Thanks for the help. A picture's worth a lot of words.
By the way, there seems to be a lot of friction between car and track. Does this free up with use?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Wednesday, March 14, 2012, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
>>I will only have 2:1 - the deck block is only a direction changer so I can pull the car to windward from a seated position. The return to the becket tube is in accordance with the Harken instructions, adjusted so the car doesn't hit the other end of the track.
>>Larry, i want the car to be able to travel right to the end of the track. If the stop knot in the becket tube doesn't do the job I thought of glueing a heavy rubber pad to the cockpit side to take the impact. Would this work?
Rick, I have attached a picture of my rig. With this simple layout I can pull the car to windward easily in the strongest of wind conditions. No need to complicate things with extra blocks and lines. If I follow your plan correctly, you will be running the release line through a turning block near the end of the track. The problem I see with that is it will restrict your ability to yank the line up out of the cleat if you suddenly want to release the car. In gusty weather, if I have the car to windward at all, I sail with the release line in my hand instead of the mainsheet. Yanking it out of the cleat drops the car to leeward instantly, which dumps a lot of the air out of the main without destroying the sail shape like releasing the mainsheet will. Larry
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I like to keep the genny driving at full power as long as possible in a gust, holding course until the lee rail is almost submerged, depowering with the mainsheet (since I have a pinstop traveler) and only heading up as a last resort, since that seems to lose speed. I'm not sure that a racing pro would consider this the best tactic, but it sure is fun! Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Thursday, March 15, 2012, jerry montgomery <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
I'm all in favor of controllable travellers and wouldn't be without one, but in my mind the value is in being able to pull the tra\veller to weather in light and sometimes moderate air- not in the ability to letting it off off the wind, which is better done with a vang.
I like to control it with a block and cleat at each end, so when you tack you can pull it UP quickly, from the weather side. If you use an endless control line you can pop it off on the other side as you tighten it.
Dave- can you senmd a pic of how you do it on the Sage, which is the same as I used to do on the M -17 as an optiion?
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Davies" <jdavies104@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:36 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Harken windward sheeting traveler
Larry,
You actually don't lose much if any travel over the original pinstop car, which was limited by the pinhole positions, not the track length. I was hoping to gain a little.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
Shouldn't be any friction. The car runs on ball bearings. Sounds like something doesn't fit right.
The end caps do shorten the track an inch or so on each side, compared to a standard cap, but I would recommend them. When you release the car to dump the wind in a gust the car will slam down to the low side very hard. The heavy duty end cap is padded with a two bolt mount, assuring that you're not going to break anything.
It might seem like a two foot track isn't worth much, but it makes a real difference in sail trim just moving the car a short distance.
Larry
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:36:37 -0400 Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> writes:
Larry,
Your setup is what I first had in mind. I thought of adding the turning block to keep the line low like in the Harken pictures, but your reasoning (and experience) seem to show it's not necessary. The reason I wasn't planning to use the Harken endstops is that they seem to cut several inches off the distance the car can travel. Is this a problem?
Thanks for the help. A picture's worth a lot of words.
By the way, there seems to be a lot of friction between car and track. Does this free up with use?
Thanks,
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Wednesday, March 14, 2012, Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> wrote:
>I will only have 2:1 - the deck block is only a direction changer so I can pull the car to windward from a seated position. The return to the becket tube is in accordance with the Harken instructions, adjusted so the car doesn't hit the other end of the track.
>Larry, i want the car to be able to travel right to the end of the track. If the stop knot in the becket tube doesn't do the job I thought of glueing a heavy rubber pad to the cockpit side to take the impact. Would this work?
Rick, I have attached a picture of my rig. With this simple layout I can pull the car to windward easily in the strongest of wind conditions. No need to complicate things with extra blocks and lines. If I follow your plan correctly, you will be running the release line through a turning block near the end of the track. The problem I see with that is it will restrict your ability to yank the line up out of the cleat if you suddenly want to release the car. In gusty weather, if I have the car to windward at all, I sail with the release line in my hand instead of the mainsheet. Yanking it out of the cleat drops the car to leeward instantly, which dumps a lot of the air out of the main without destroying the sail shape like releasing the mainsheet will. Larry
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 6303 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
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participants (9)
-
Bill Wickett -
Howard Audsley -
jerry montgomery -
Joe Murphy -
Larry E Yake -
Rick Davies -
Shawn Boles -
Tom Smith -
W David Scobie