My 2005 M17 has plain jam cleats just aft of the jib winches on the cockpit coaming. The angle makes them hard to work from the windward side. I agree that the cross sheeting is a neat idea. I'll try it. There are several forums out there where the winchers are discussed, and there are lots of opinions. The main contribution seems to be that when the turns on the winch run up against the underside of the wincher it greatly increases the effective winch friction, which makes tailing more manageable. They definitely don't work as self-tailers. Combining that with the cross sheeting might work even better. Since they only cost $35 at Defender I think I'll give them a try and provide feedback when I've done a sea trial. Thanks for the input, Rick M-17 #633 Lynne L ************** Hurry! April 15th is almost here. File your Federal taxes FREE with TaxACT. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221653545x1201423923/aol?redir=http... 102950004%26p%3D82)