. . . thanks, Tod . . . That, indeed, clears it up . . . So to reiterate, my '84 M17 #389 did not have the gudgeon-on-rudder/gudgeon-on-transom/lifting-rod arrangement that is standard on the new M17's . . . I had three pintles on the rudder and three gudgeons on the transom . . . And my pintles would lift clear of my gudgeons every time I grounded, so imagine trying to re-seat THREE pintles in THREE gudgeons on a rudder that is offering resistance because the boat is still under sail! Made for some interesting hijinx that first season . . . Sheared the top bolt on the third pintle when I grounded in Mackinac Island's harbor . . . --Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: htmills@bright.net To: 'Craig F. Honshell' ; 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:25 PM Subject: i'm confused by the . . . A pintle is the male fitting, a gudgeon is the female. Most dinghy rudders are made using a pair of each, sometimes with pintles on the rudder, other times with them on the transom instead. M-17's are a bit unusual in that they use gudgeons on both rudder and transom with a separate pin to join them (at least that is the way Busca is made). Tod -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Craig F. Honshell Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:21 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: i'm confused by the . . . . . . terminology . . . Isn't the gudgeon the thing mounted to the transom that receives the pin, whereas the pintle is the thing on the rudder with the pin . . . This arrangement, in some cases, being reversed? Nonetheless, the photo in this link very clearly shows a rudder arrangement my '84 M17 #389 never had . . . My piece like the one shown, that I thought was the pintle, was not open to receive the lifting rod, as with Tod's Busca . . . Mine had a solid pin . . . And I had three of these solid pins that mounted through three gudgeons (or pintles) identical to the one shown bolted to Tod's transom . . . I have never seen the standard M17 rudder lifting method up close . . . But from the pics and descripts, it makes sense how it works . . . Understand my frustration my first season sailing my 17', with the rudder lifting completely free with every grounding, and in the one case mentioned earlier, shearing a pintle (gudgeon?) bolt!!! I could see that, in an accidental grounding, the lifting mechanism would not save my transom, as I'd have to be able to anticipate the shallows and raise the rudder to avoid catastrophe . . . Of course, you can point out that charts and depth-sounders could help one avoid such a problem . . . The chart DID help in Lake Huron, where I avoided trouble in the Les Chenaux, but let down my guard in Mackinac Island's harbor . . . This past summer I sailed Ontario's remote Lake Nipigon, up above Thunder Bay, Superior . . . We could find no nautical charts for Nipigon . . . A local fisherman and bait and tackle shop owner sold a land map to us and marked out shallows with a pen . . . This worked up to a point, but on the last day, anxious to get back to the launch and motoring at 3 to 4 knots, we grounded HARD on rocks . . . I sustained hull and keel damage that has since been repaired . . . But my rudder kicked up perfectly and I sustained no damage whatsoever . . . Don't know the outcome if I'd had the lifting mechanism, with the rudder extended . . . I've gotten in trouble voicing my observations lately, so please allow me to clarify: I AM NOT ADVOCATING ON BEHALF OF A KICKUP RUDDER CONFIGURATION ON AN M17, nor am I ARGUING AGAINST THE LIFTING RUDDER ON THE M17 . . . LET ME BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR: IF JERRY MONTGOMERY AND BOB EEG SAY A LIFTING SOLID MAHOGANY RUDDER IS SUPERIOR FROM THE STANDPOINTS OF SEAWORTHINESS, DURABILITY AND PERFORMANCE, YOU DARN WELL BETTER BELIEVE THAT LIFTING SOLID MAHOGANY RUDDERS ARE SUPERIOR FROM THE STANDPOINTS OF SEAWORTHINESS, DURABILITY AND PERFORMANCE!!!!! I'm just explaining what I had when I bought my 17', and the solution I've sought to accommodate the sail-camping and wilderness gunkholing I like to do . . . To each, ABSOLUTELY, his own . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: htmills@bright.net To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: M17 Rudders Maria, Here is a picture showing the block. It would have been better if I had drilled the holes in the gudgeon slightly more aft (closer to the mahogany) than I did (I probably could have avoided the chafe that this picture illustrates). I had left the rudder mounted for a week or two, not raised completely and the line chafed on the transom gudgeon. I replaced the line and am careful not to leave the rudder in a position not quite fully raised and haven't had any more chafing since. www.bright.net/~htmills/BuscaRudderChafe.jpg Tod