"And lastly, I'd be curious to see if you can steer with the rudder kicked up. As in what happens when you find yourself sailing in 20 inches of water? Will it still steer the boat without damaging the rudder?" The answer is "yes" with my rudder design http://www.msog.org/how-to/rudders/honshell.cfm , Howard . . . It'll steer, and the loads won't damage the rudder . . . But having to steer with the blade up for a long period of time could definitely damage the helmsman . . . Holding that horizontal "barn-door" steady, especially in a strong breeze or under significant outboard power, requires Herculean effort . . . "Offhand, I can't imagine how a line through a cleat is going to release on it's own, but I'm sure it must. I'd like to see how that works. The concept of a line releasing from a cleat on it's own just doesn't seem right." The secret is shock-cord . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: Howard Audsley To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:09 AM Subject: M17 Kick-up rudder Offhand, I can't imagine how a line through a cleat is going to release on it's own, but I'm sure it must. I'd like to see how that works. The concept of a line releasing from a cleat on it's own just doesn't seem right. I'm aware of one such kick-up rudder design, where the rudder blade pivots on a bolt or pin at the aft edge of the rudder. On the forward edge of the rudder is a spring loaded pin that has enough friction/force to hold the rudder in place during normal loads. The pin is on the top half of the rudder. Right above that is cam on the bottom half...the part in the water. In this design, an impact has enough leverage aft to force the small cam on the rudders blade to push the pin out and release the rudder blade to pivot out of the water . You then use a line like you describe to reset it forward. Normally, there isn't any tension on the line, which just hangs loose. For those who frequently encounter shallow water and groundings, this could be a really good deal, as a severe grounding with a stock rudder can damage the rudder, the rudder pin and if bad enough, the transom too. I also notice the foil of the new rudder extends forward under the skeg, giving a more balanced rudder design. Curious to see how this is going to affect weather helm and the "feel" of the tiller. Hopefully, it is only partially balanced and not "dead". Also curious to see how that small notch at the aft end of the skeg affects drag, if any. It is below the waterline and in a turbulent flow area. It may turn out to be a great improvement. Just curious to see how it turns out. And lastly, I'd be curious to see if you can steer with the rudder kicked up. As in what happens when you find yourself sailing in 20 inches of water? Will it still steer the boat without damaging the rudder? Howard M17, #278 ------ Forwarded Message From: Larry E Yake <leyake@juno.com> Reply-To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:24:50 -0800 To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M17 Kick-up rudder The rudder blade is held down by cinching up and cleating off the line on the front of the rudder. On impact, the cleat releases and allows the blade to pivot on the bolt. You then just tighten that line back up to pull the blade back down, cleat it, on you're on your way. Larry

. . . And I like the, what looks to be, very NACA foil blade shape . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig F. Honshell To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:51 PM Subject: M17 Kick-up rudder Sweet rudder, Larry . . . How is the bottom pintle attached to the cheekplates? The blade has to pivot between the pintle bolts, doesn't it? Yours looks like a better-thought-out setup than mine, depicted on the MSOG site . . . My biggest problem is that I don't have a really effective "uphaul" system, as you describe below . . . As I've told Dick Straubel, my current uphaul system works, but is a rather "Rube-Goldberg-esque" contrivance, rather than a well-thought-out process engineered into the design. --Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry E Yake To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:24 AM Subject: M17 Kick-up rudder The rudder blade is held down by cinching up and cleating off the line on the front of the rudder. On impact, the cleat releases and allows the blade to pivot on the bolt. You then just tighten that line back up to pull the blade back down, cleat it, on you're on your way. Larry On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:11:55 -0600 "Gilbert Landin" <gilbert@mindgame.com> writes: Randys pictures sure look good. It just seems the one tension bolt would make it hard for the bottom part to stay horizontal on a good sail. gil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry E Yake" <leyake@juno.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:20 PM Subject: M17 Kick-up rudder My new kick-up rudder from Ida Sailor arrived this week. I'm impressed. It fits perfect and the workmanship is top notch. Can't wait for spring to try it out. All I have to do is drill the tiller pivot bolt hole, since I'm using my old tiller. Randy Graves added some pictures of it to his website at http://sailing.gravesfam.us . It has some custom modifications to fit my non-standard gudgeons, and I had the optional releasing jam cleat added, but the basic design will be the same for the standard M17 setup. Larry Yake M17 #200 Tullamore "In a power boat you get there faster. In a sailboat you're already there."