Hello all. I'm a owner of a 1984 M17, recent purchase. It's missing a few things, standing n running rigging. No spreaders, centerboard gone, rudder cut off short. Are any measures available for these items? Thanks. Also I noticed the cast iron centerboard was done away with in 87' I think. Can I make myself one of ply n epoxy glass, my question, the weight factor, metal #165 +/- , is that weight needed ? Ballast? Added inside? I'm stuck, any thoughts, thanks ever so much, Mike
I have a 1974 M17. AFAKIK the total ballast was about the same before and after the switch from heavy CB to light CB - the difference was made up in the fixed keel ballast. If you put a light CB in a pre-light-CB Monty, at the least you'll have a much more tender (probably less safe and seaworthy) boat. I'd assume you need to fabricate or find a CB of matching weight to the original. Or maybe you could add fixed ballast - beyond my knowledge if that would be reasonable, or where/how. I have my boat's original one piece slightly counterbalanced rudder, and also one of the slide-up types that I bought from another list member. I could provide pix and dimensions if you need (but not until late next week at the soonest). cheers, John S. On 05/17/2016 12:54 PM, michael beebe via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hello all. I'm a owner of a 1984 M17, recent purchase. It's missing a few things, standing n running rigging. No spreaders, centerboard gone, rudder cut off short. Are any measures available for these items? Thanks. Also I noticed the cast iron centerboard was done away with in 87' I think. Can I make myself one of ply n epoxy glass, my question, the weight factor, metal #165 +/- , is that weight needed ? Ballast? Added inside? I'm stuck, any thoughts, thanks ever so much, Mike
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Mike- on the CB, let me tell you about the history of the two different CBs in the 17. The original design was for an iron crank up/down keel that didn't work out well; hard to build and not very effective because of the wide, open trunk when the keel was down. Lyle Hess, the designer of the 17, at my request, re-drew it to the current keel/CB design and I did some re-tooling. This worked out very well and is a major part of the success of the 17. When I moved to Sacramento in '87, I had some extra money because of selling real estate and bought a bunch of 17 centerboards. When I ran out of them I called the iron foundry to find that they were out of business, and the location of the pattern was unknown. Knowing that the 17 was nearing the end of it's production life, I put together a 17 using the M-15 board, which was made of glass, and much smaller in area but quite a bit thicker. I sailed the boat and it sailed fine altho it was a bit slower than the old cb, but nobody that I knew about was racing the 17. To compensate for less weight, I made up the difference by adding enough more ballast to make up the difference plus a bit more because the vertical cb obviously went up. I had already switched to lead, mostly because I couldn't find a good source of clean steel punchings in the Sac area, but there was a trap range that used a clever little placer mining setup to mine and clean the used shot. I don't see a practical way to pt a 15 board in a 17; smaller but thicker. I'd fix the problem by making a finding some 1/2" lead plate, cut it out a bit undersized, grind the edges down to feather them, mostly the trailing edge, then cover it with glass to stiffen it and bring it up to thickness, which probably would be about 7/8", but obviously you should measure it carefully first. maybe make a plywood pattern of 3/4" material, install it, and stick some spacers up beside the ply. I suspect that this board would be as heavy as the cast iron boards, but if its 20 or 30 pounds heavier or lighter, you'd never tell it. Hope this helps. -----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 6:03 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hello - CB and rudder I have a 1974 M17. AFAKIK the total ballast was about the same before and after the switch from heavy CB to light CB - the difference was made up in the fixed keel ballast. If you put a light CB in a pre-light-CB Monty, at the least you'll have a much more tender (probably less safe and seaworthy) boat. I'd assume you need to fabricate or find a CB of matching weight to the original. Or maybe you could add fixed ballast - beyond my knowledge if that would be reasonable, or where/how. I have my boat's original one piece slightly counterbalanced rudder, and also one of the slide-up types that I bought from another list member. I could provide pix and dimensions if you need (but not until late next week at the soonest). cheers, John S. On 05/17/2016 12:54 PM, michael beebe via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hello all. I'm a owner of a 1984 M17, recent purchase. It's missing a few things, standing n running rigging. No spreaders, centerboard gone, rudder cut off short. Are any measures available for these items? Thanks. Also I noticed the cast iron centerboard was done away with in 87' I think. Can I make myself one of ply n epoxy glass, my question, the weight factor, metal #165 +/- , is that weight needed ? Ballast? Added inside? I'm stuck, any thoughts, thanks ever so much, Mike
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Jerry, When you say the iron CB "did not work out well" because the cb trunk was open when the board was down, what were you referring to? Were the expected sailing characteristics not met or was it just that water splashed up through the lanyard hole in the top of the cb housing when the board was down? When my iron board is down some of it remains in the well such that there is only a very small opening on either side of it. Any less and the board would probably hang up sooner or later. This is my second "old" Monty 17 and both sail very well against longer waterline boats in my general size. Tom B <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 1:01 PM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
Mike- on the CB, let me tell you about the history of the two different CBs in the 17. The original design was for an iron crank up/down keel that didn't work out well; hard to build and not very effective because of the wide, open trunk when the keel was down. Lyle Hess, the designer of the 17, at my request, re-drew it to the current keel/CB design and I did some re-tooling. This worked out very well and is a major part of the success of the 17. When I moved to Sacramento in '87, I had some extra money because of selling real estate and bought a bunch of 17 centerboards. When I ran out of them I called the iron foundry to find that they were out of business, and the location of the pattern was unknown. Knowing that the 17 was nearing the end of it's production life, I put together a 17 using the M-15 board, which was made of glass, and much smaller in area but quite a bit thicker. I sailed the boat and it sailed fine altho it was a bit slower than the old cb, but nobody that I knew about was racing the 17. To compensate for less weight, I made up the difference by adding enough more ballast to make up the difference plus a bit more because the vertical cb obviously went up. I had already switched to lead, mostly because I couldn't find a good source of clean steel punchings in the Sac area, but there was a trap range that used a clever little placer mining setup to mine and clean the used shot.
I don't see a practical way to pt a 15 board in a 17; smaller but thicker. I'd fix the problem by making a finding some 1/2" lead plate, cut it out a bit undersized, grind the edges down to feather them, mostly the trailing edge, then cover it with glass to stiffen it and bring it up to thickness, which probably would be about 7/8", but obviously you should measure it carefully first. maybe make a plywood pattern of 3/4" material, install it, and stick some spacers up beside the ply. I suspect that this board would be as heavy as the cast iron boards, but if its 20 or 30 pounds heavier or lighter, you'd never tell it.
Hope this helps.
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 6:03 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hello - CB and rudder
I have a 1974 M17. AFAKIK the total ballast was about the same before and after the switch from heavy CB to light CB - the difference was made up in the fixed keel ballast. If you put a light CB in a pre-light-CB Monty, at the least you'll have a much more tender (probably less safe and seaworthy) boat. I'd assume you need to fabricate or find a CB of matching weight to the original. Or maybe you could add fixed ballast - beyond my knowledge if that would be reasonable, or where/how.
I have my boat's original one piece slightly counterbalanced rudder, and also one of the slide-up types that I bought from another list member. I could provide pix and dimensions if you need (but not until late next week at the soonest).
cheers, John S.
On 05/17/2016 12:54 PM, michael beebe via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hello all. I'm a owner of a 1984 M17, recent purchase. It's missing a few things, standing n running rigging. No spreaders, centerboard gone, rudder cut off short. Are any measures available for these items? Thanks. Also I noticed the cast iron centerboard was done away with in 87' I think. Can I make myself one of ply n epoxy glass, my question, the weight factor, metal #165 +/- , is that weight needed ? Ballast? Added inside? I'm stuck, any thoughts, thanks ever so much, Mike
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Tom- that was an iron KEEL, not a CB! picture a Venture or Catalina-type drop keel that operated with a crank rather than a lifting wire. -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Buzzi Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 11:22 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hello - CB and rudder Jerry, When you say the iron CB "did not work out well" because the cb trunk was open when the board was down, what were you referring to? Were the expected sailing characteristics not met or was it just that water splashed up through the lanyard hole in the top of the cb housing when the board was down? When my iron board is down some of it remains in the well such that there is only a very small opening on either side of it. Any less and the board would probably hang up sooner or later. This is my second "old" Monty 17 and both sail very well against longer waterline boats in my general size. Tom B <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 1:01 PM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
Mike- on the CB, let me tell you about the history of the two different CBs in the 17. The original design was for an iron crank up/down keel that didn't work out well; hard to build and not very effective because of the wide, open trunk when the keel was down. Lyle Hess, the designer of the 17, at my request, re-drew it to the current keel/CB design and I did some re-tooling. This worked out very well and is a major part of the success of the 17. When I moved to Sacramento in '87, I had some extra money because of selling real estate and bought a bunch of 17 centerboards. When I ran out of them I called the iron foundry to find that they were out of business, and the location of the pattern was unknown. Knowing that the 17 was nearing the end of it's production life, I put together a 17 using the M-15 board, which was made of glass, and much smaller in area but quite a bit thicker. I sailed the boat and it sailed fine altho it was a bit slower than the old cb, but nobody that I knew about was racing the 17. To compensate for less weight, I made up the difference by adding enough more ballast to make up the difference plus a bit more because the vertical cb obviously went up. I had already switched to lead, mostly because I couldn't find a good source of clean steel punchings in the Sac area, but there was a trap range that used a clever little placer mining setup to mine and clean the used shot.
I don't see a practical way to pt a 15 board in a 17; smaller but thicker. I'd fix the problem by making a finding some 1/2" lead plate, cut it out a bit undersized, grind the edges down to feather them, mostly the trailing edge, then cover it with glass to stiffen it and bring it up to thickness, which probably would be about 7/8", but obviously you should measure it carefully first. maybe make a plywood pattern of 3/4" material, install it, and stick some spacers up beside the ply. I suspect that this board would be as heavy as the cast iron boards, but if its 20 or 30 pounds heavier or lighter, you'd never tell it.
Hope this helps.
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 6:03 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hello - CB and rudder
I have a 1974 M17. AFAKIK the total ballast was about the same before and after the switch from heavy CB to light CB - the difference was made up in the fixed keel ballast. If you put a light CB in a pre-light-CB Monty, at the least you'll have a much more tender (probably less safe and seaworthy) boat. I'd assume you need to fabricate or find a CB of matching weight to the original. Or maybe you could add fixed ballast - beyond my knowledge if that would be reasonable, or where/how.
I have my boat's original one piece slightly counterbalanced rudder, and also one of the slide-up types that I bought from another list member. I could provide pix and dimensions if you need (but not until late next week at the soonest).
cheers, John S.
On 05/17/2016 12:54 PM, michael beebe via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hello all. I'm a owner of a 1984 M17, recent purchase. It's missing a few things, standing n running rigging. No spreaders, centerboard gone, rudder cut off short. Are any measures available for these items? Thanks. Also I noticed the cast iron centerboard was done away with in 87' I think. Can I make myself one of ply n epoxy glass, my question, the weight factor, metal #165 +/- , is that weight needed ? Ballast? Added inside? I'm stuck, any thoughts, thanks ever so much, Mike
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thank you for the quick reply, Jerry, and for clearing up my misunderstanding. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 1:28 PM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
Tom- that was an iron KEEL, not a CB! picture a Venture or Catalina-type drop keel that operated with a crank rather than a lifting wire.
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Buzzi Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 11:22 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hello - CB and rudder
Jerry, When you say the iron CB "did not work out well" because the cb trunk was open when the board was down, what were you referring to? Were the expected sailing characteristics not met or was it just that water splashed up through the lanyard hole in the top of the cb housing when the board was down? When my iron board is down some of it remains in the well such that there is only a very small opening on either side of it. Any less and the board would probably hang up sooner or later. This is my second "old" Monty 17 and both sail very well against longer waterline boats in my general size. Tom B
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On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 1:01 PM, <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
Mike- on the CB, let me tell you about the history of the two different
CBs in the 17. The original design was for an iron crank up/down keel that didn't work out well; hard to build and not very effective because of the wide, open trunk when the keel was down. Lyle Hess, the designer of the 17, at my request, re-drew it to the current keel/CB design and I did some re-tooling. This worked out very well and is a major part of the success of the 17. When I moved to Sacramento in '87, I had some extra money because of selling real estate and bought a bunch of 17 centerboards. When I ran out of them I called the iron foundry to find that they were out of business, and the location of the pattern was unknown. Knowing that the 17 was nearing the end of it's production life, I put together a 17 using the M-15 board, which was made of glass, and much smaller in area but quite a bit thicker. I sailed the boat and it sailed fine altho it was a bit slower than the old cb, but nobody that I knew about was racing the 17. To compensate for less weight, I made up the difference by adding enough more ballast to make up the difference plus a bit more because the vertical cb obviously went up. I had already switched to lead, mostly because I couldn't find a good source of clean steel punchings in the Sac area, but there was a trap range that used a clever little placer mining setup to mine and clean the used shot.
I don't see a practical way to pt a 15 board in a 17; smaller but thicker. I'd fix the problem by making a finding some 1/2" lead plate, cut it out a bit undersized, grind the edges down to feather them, mostly the trailing edge, then cover it with glass to stiffen it and bring it up to thickness, which probably would be about 7/8", but obviously you should measure it carefully first. maybe make a plywood pattern of 3/4" material, install it, and stick some spacers up beside the ply. I suspect that this board would be as heavy as the cast iron boards, but if its 20 or 30 pounds heavier or lighter, you'd never tell it.
Hope this helps.
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 6:03 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hello - CB and rudder
I have a 1974 M17. AFAKIK the total ballast was about the same before and after the switch from heavy CB to light CB - the difference was made up in the fixed keel ballast. If you put a light CB in a pre-light-CB Monty, at the least you'll have a much more tender (probably less safe and seaworthy) boat. I'd assume you need to fabricate or find a CB of matching weight to the original. Or maybe you could add fixed ballast - beyond my knowledge if that would be reasonable, or where/how.
I have my boat's original one piece slightly counterbalanced rudder, and also one of the slide-up types that I bought from another list member. I could provide pix and dimensions if you need (but not until late next week at the soonest).
cheers, John S.
On 05/17/2016 12:54 PM, michael beebe via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hello all. I'm a owner of a 1984 M17, recent purchase. It's
missing a few things, standing n running rigging. No spreaders, centerboard gone, rudder cut off short. Are any measures available for these items? Thanks. Also I noticed the cast iron centerboard was done away with in 87' I think. Can I make myself one of ply n epoxy glass, my question, the weight factor, metal #165 +/- , is that weight needed ? Ballast? Added inside? I'm stuck, any thoughts, thanks ever so much, Mike
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Mike, If you are going to use a flat plate, add lead ballast to the boat, about 180#'s. I would suggest lead shot since it won't tend to slide or roll around when encased in heavy cloth bags, like cut off blue jean pants legs. RotoMetals sells used shot. Pack it along the centerline amid ships as low as possible. Welcome to the site. Tom B <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 2:54 PM, michael beebe via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello all. I'm a owner of a 1984 M17, recent purchase. It's missing a few things, standing n running rigging. No spreaders, centerboard gone, rudder cut off short. Are any measures available for these items? Thanks. Also I noticed the cast iron centerboard was done away with in 87' I think. Can I make myself one of ply n epoxy glass, my question, the weight factor, metal #165 +/- , is that weight needed ? Ballast? Added inside? I'm stuck, any thoughts, thanks ever so much, Mike
Bob Eeg the current builder can be a great source of M17 information. I used to own an M15. Just reading the messaging back and forth in the last 12 years has shown me just how much information you can get. First, get the M17 back to original as best you can. It will not be cheap but the center board has to get back to the original weight and configuration. Call Bob Eeg and see what material is used today. The originals were bronze...not sure. Ask Bob if a steel CB can be used. It will be a pain to get back into its correct position and get pinned with a stainless bolt. I am not sure that a new steel can be made at home. There is more....like the winch and cable for raising the CB back up. Look into getting a new, original rudder are a flip up type. Could save you hundreds of dollars in shallow waters. Get in touch also with Connie. This elder sailor is treasure of information and other leads. Find out what you can do yourself. Give your restoration time to do correctly the first time. Good luck with the new boat. You have a classic in your possession. Wear that PFD at all times. Larry (ex-M15 owner...I went to power for the Sacramento River) -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of michael beebe via montgomery_boats Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 12:55 PM To: Montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Hello Hello all. I'm a owner of a 1984 M17, recent purchase. It's missing a few things, standing n running rigging. No spreaders, centerboard gone, rudder cut off short. Are any measures available for these items? Thanks. Also I noticed the cast iron centerboard was done away with in 87' I think. Can I make myself one of ply n epoxy glass, my question, the weight factor, metal #165 +/- , is that weight needed ? Ballast? Added inside? I'm stuck, any thoughts, thanks ever so much, Mike
until the mid-ish-80s the M17s centerboards were cast iron. when Jerry lost the casting mold when the casting company went bankrupt. as a result Jerry modified the M17s to use the M15's centerboard. the M15's centerboard is a fiberglass shell filled the about 45# of lead shot (ie, BBs). don't use stainless under the waterline. use silicon bronze for the rotation and stop pins. the best M17 rudders are a solid piece of wood, mahogany, that slide up/down on a rod (silicone bronze or aluminum bronze .... NOT stainless steel. when in the up position the rudder is just above the depth of the shoal keel. these are what Jerry delivered on most of his boats (some of the early M17 rudders were simi-balanced and could not be moved up/down; also solid mahogany). the plastic (HPDE i believe) kickup rudder that is available for the M17 isn't to Jerry's & Lyle's foil speck. the plastic rudders also warp, significantly, if not stored correctly. as Jerry recommended the best move would be to cut a new centerboard out of steel plate, clean up the edges to make a bit of a foil. the cast iron boards weigh about 180#; though i've read some were lighter as noted: 165-170# John Owens, JOWoodworks, can make you an original specification mahogany rudder & glulam tiller. Contact Dwyer Aluminum Mast company for a new standing rig & boom. Harry Pattison (E/P Custom Sails) or JudyB with Hyde Sails Direct can assist with sails. Both lofts know the M17 well. I can assist you in getting the mast/boom hardware (ie, cleat(s), blocks, strapeyes, etc.) I can also assist in the running rigging (sheets, halyards, and other sail control lines). I can also make you the shrouds (I have Jerry's swaging tool ... used to make most of his M17s and M15s shrouds). before investing i recommend you carefully inspect the shoal keel to confirm the steel ballast isn't rusting. if it is rusting a significant repair is required. also inspect the deck/cockpit for balsa core rot ... if the rot is significant the repair is also a lot of work. both issues are also costy. if you need measurements for anything, or pictures of parts, or pictures of how the boat is set up i can, again, assist ... i have an '83 M17 here at the shop. should be identical you yours as she has a cast iron keel and the 'new' deck/cockpit setup (ie, three cockpit lockers, two cockpit locker drains and a slightly different house than the original deck mold). i also have direct contact with Jerry to assist in the project. -- :: Dave Scobie :: Sage Marine - www.sagemairne.com :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Hughston, Larry@DGS < Larry.Hughston@dgs.ca.gov> wrote:
Bob Eeg the current builder can be a great source of M17 information. I used to own an M15. Just reading the messaging back and forth in the last 12 years has shown me just how much information you can get. First, get the M17 back to original as best you can. It will not be cheap but the center board has to get back to the original weight and configuration. Call Bob Eeg and see what material is used today. The originals were bronze...not sure. Ask Bob if a steel CB can be used. It will be a pain to get back into its correct position and get pinned with a stainless bolt. I am not sure that a new steel can be made at home. There is more....like the winch and cable for raising the CB back up. Look into getting a new, original rudder are a flip up type. Could save you hundreds of dollars in shallow waters. Get in touch also with Connie. This elder sailor is treasure of information and other leads. Find out what you can do yourself. Give your restoration time to do correctly the first time. Good luck with the new boat. You have a classic in your possession. Wear that PFD at all times. Larry (ex-M15 owner...I went to power for the Sacramento River)
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of michael beebe via montgomery_boats Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 12:55 PM
Hello all. I'm a owner of a 1984 M17, recent purchase. It's missing a few things, standing n running rigging. No spreaders, centerboard gone, rudder cut off short. Are any measures available for these items? Thanks. Also I noticed the cast iron centerboard was done away with in 87' I think. Can I make myself one of ply n epoxy glass, my question, the weight factor, metal #165 +/- , is that weight needed ? Ballast? Added inside? I'm stuck, any thoughts, thanks ever so much, Mike
Dave, I've had persistent warping problems with my Ruddercraft kickup plastic rudder. It took a warped set during its first season, about an inch or more out of line at at the tip. I can correct it temporarily by clamping it in a reverse curve for several days, but it always comes back. How should I be storing it? During the season I leave it on the boat. Is there something else I should be doing? Thanks, Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Thursday, May 19, 2016, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
until the mid-ish-80s the M17s centerboards were cast iron. when Jerry lost the casting mold when the casting company went bankrupt. as a result Jerry modified the M17s to use the M15's centerboard.
the M15's centerboard is a fiberglass shell filled the about 45# of lead shot (ie, BBs).
don't use stainless under the waterline. use silicon bronze for the rotation and stop pins.
the best M17 rudders are a solid piece of wood, mahogany, that slide up/down on a rod (silicone bronze or aluminum bronze .... NOT stainless steel. when in the up position the rudder is just above the depth of the shoal keel. these are what Jerry delivered on most of his boats (some of the early M17 rudders were simi-balanced and could not be moved up/down; also solid mahogany).
the plastic (HPDE i believe) kickup rudder that is available for the M17 isn't to Jerry's & Lyle's foil speck. the plastic rudders also warp, significantly, if not stored correctly.
as Jerry recommended the best move would be to cut a new centerboard out of steel plate, clean up the edges to make a bit of a foil. the cast iron boards weigh about 180#; though i've read some were lighter as noted: 165-170#
John Owens, JOWoodworks, can make you an original specification mahogany rudder & glulam tiller.
Contact Dwyer Aluminum Mast company for a new standing rig & boom.
Harry Pattison (E/P Custom Sails) or JudyB with Hyde Sails Direct can assist with sails. Both lofts know the M17 well.
I can assist you in getting the mast/boom hardware (ie, cleat(s), blocks, strapeyes, etc.)
I can also assist in the running rigging (sheets, halyards, and other sail control lines).
I can also make you the shrouds (I have Jerry's swaging tool ... used to make most of his M17s and M15s shrouds).
before investing i recommend you carefully inspect the shoal keel to confirm the steel ballast isn't rusting. if it is rusting a significant repair is required. also inspect the deck/cockpit for balsa core rot ... if the rot is significant the repair is also a lot of work. both issues are also costy.
if you need measurements for anything, or pictures of parts, or pictures of how the boat is set up i can, again, assist ... i have an '83 M17 here at the shop. should be identical you yours as she has a cast iron keel and the 'new' deck/cockpit setup (ie, three cockpit lockers, two cockpit locker drains and a slightly different house than the original deck mold). i also have direct contact with Jerry to assist in the project.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: Sage Marine - www.sagemairne.com :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Hughston, Larry@DGS < Larry.Hughston@dgs.ca.gov <javascript:;>> wrote:
Bob Eeg the current builder can be a great source of M17 information. I used to own an M15. Just reading the messaging back and forth in the last 12 years has shown me just how much information you can get. First, get the M17 back to original as best you can. It will not be cheap but the center board has to get back to the original weight and configuration. Call Bob Eeg and see what material is used today. The originals were bronze...not sure. Ask Bob if a steel CB can be used. It will be a pain to get back into its correct position and get pinned with a stainless bolt. I am not sure that a new steel can be made at home. There is more....like the winch and cable for raising the CB back up. Look into getting a new, original rudder are a flip up type. Could save you hundreds of dollars in shallow waters. Get in touch also with Connie. This elder sailor is treasure of information and other leads. Find out what you can do yourself. Give your restoration time to do correctly the first time. Good luck with the new boat. You have a classic in your possession. Wear that PFD at all times. Larry (ex-M15 owner...I went to power for the Sacramento River)
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com <javascript:;>] On Behalf Of michael beebe via montgomery_boats Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 12:55 PM
Hello all. I'm a owner of a 1984 M17, recent purchase. It's missing a few things, standing n running rigging. No spreaders, centerboard gone, rudder cut off short. Are any measures available for these items? Thanks. Also I noticed the cast iron centerboard was done away with in 87' I think. Can I make myself one of ply n epoxy glass, my question, the weight factor, metal #165 +/- , is that weight needed ? Ballast? Added inside? I'm stuck, any thoughts, thanks ever so much, Mike
participants (7)
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Dave Scobie -
Hughston, Larry＠DGS -
jerry＠jerrymontgomery.org -
John Schinnerer -
michael beebe -
Rick Davies -
Thomas Buzzi