Montypals: I am doing some re-rigging of M15 Kestrel. Just received my sails from JudyB and Hyde a few weeks ago. Sadly, the jib is too big! So, it is being remade. Just one of those things. In any event, I am going to set up a 3-1 outhaul per a previous photo supplied by one of you guys. Looks good. But I am grappling with the best way to set up a better downhaul. My current setup is a 2-1 going only through the cunningham. Basically there is an eyestrap on one side of the mast, and the line goes from there up through the cringle, and then down to a jam cleat. Not a very nice setup, and the thing is too high anyway so the purchase is not good. I want to get perhaps 4-1, but don’t want to lead it aft. I am just having a hard time visualizing the thing. A cascading system would work I think, but I just have a hard time understanding the geometry. Furthermore, easy rigging and derigging is a must. I want to use the downhaul instead, since there is a ring on my floating gooseneck for that purpose, and that should work as well or better than the cunningham. I will mount much lower on the mast. Any ideas here?? -- Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel"
Daniel: that is a lot of leverage for a cunningham ... like way way more than needed. on my M15 i needed nothing more than just a line run from the port side strap eye to a clam-cleat on the starboard side. the same holds true for my M17. the Sage 17s use a similar system ... just adding a snatch block and turning block to run the cunningham aft. never had an issue adjusting the main's luff tension. IMO a workable method to work with the M15's sliding gooseneck fitting is to find a length of line that just holds the boom to the height you want when raising the sail (need a stop to keep the gooseneck fitting to not crash down to the base of the mast when lowering the main or putting in a reef).? this 'fixed line' method is what i use on my M17. the best method for working with the M15's sliding gooseneck is to replace with a fixed gooseneck fitting. this is what i did when i built a new standing rig for the Glesser's M15. the limitations with the sliding gooseneck is why the Sage 17 has a fixed gooseneck (and why one day i'll convert my M17 to a fixed gooseneck. :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 11/16/13, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote: Montypals: I am doing some re-rigging of M15 Kestrel. Just received my sails from JudyB and Hyde a few weeks ago. Sadly, the jib is too big! So, it is being remade. Just one of those things. In any event, I am going to set up a 3-1 outhaul per a previous photo supplied by one of you guys. Looks good. But I am grappling with the best way to set up a better downhaul. My current setup is a 2-1 going only through the cunningham. Basically there is an eyestrap on one side of the mast, and the line goes from there up through the cringle, and then down to a jam cleat. Not a very nice setup, and the thing is too high anyway so the purchase is not good. I want to get perhaps 4-1, but don’t want to lead it aft. I am just having a hard time visualizing the thing. A cascading system would work I think, but I just have a hard time understanding the geometry. Furthermore, easy rigging and derigging is a must. I want to use the downhaul instead, since there is a ring on my floating gooseneck for that purpose, and that should work as well or better than the cunningham. I will mount much lower on the mast. Any ideas here?? -- Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel"
Well, perhaps what I will do is use the system as it is since it is a 2-1 basically, and just move the fittings down. They are just too high. Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com On Nov 16, 2013, at 4:54 PM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
Daniel:
that is a lot of leverage for a cunningham ... like way way more than needed. on my M15 i needed nothing more than just a line run from the port side strap eye to a clam-cleat on the starboard side. the same holds true for my M17. the Sage 17s use a similar system ... just adding a snatch block and turning block to run the cunningham aft. never had an issue adjusting the main's luff tension.
IMO a workable method to work with the M15's sliding gooseneck fitting is to find a length of line that just holds the boom to the height you want when raising the sail (need a stop to keep the gooseneck fitting to not crash down to the base of the mast when lowering the main or putting in a reef).? this 'fixed line' method is what i use on my M17.
the best method for working with the M15's sliding gooseneck is to replace with a fixed gooseneck fitting. this is what i did when i built a new standing rig for the Glesser's M15. the limitations with the sliding gooseneck is why the Sage 17 has a fixed gooseneck (and why one day i'll convert my M17 to a fixed gooseneck.
:: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
-------------------------------------------- On Sat, 11/16/13, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
I am doing some re-rigging of M15 Kestrel. Just received my sails from JudyB and Hyde a few weeks ago. Sadly, the jib is too big! So, it is being remade. Just one of those things.
In any event, I am going to set up a 3-1 outhaul per a previous photo supplied by one of you guys. Looks good.
But I am grappling with the best way to set up a better downhaul. My current setup is a 2-1 going only through the cunningham. Basically there is an eyestrap on one side of the mast, and the line goes from there up through the cringle, and then down to a jam cleat. Not a very nice setup, and the thing is too high anyway so the purchase is not good. I want to get perhaps 4-1, but don’t want to lead it aft. I am just having a hard time visualizing the thing. A cascading system would work I think, but I just have a hard time understanding the geometry. Furthermore, easy rigging and derigging is a must. I want to use the downhaul instead, since there is a ring on my floating gooseneck for that purpose, and that should work as well or better than the cunningham. I will mount much lower on the mast. Any ideas here??
-- Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel"
Dan: If you have a slug mainsail jus tie a short loop of cord thru the fwd reef grommet. You can stand up and pull the fwd part of the sail down and hook the loop on you mast cleat, then re-tension the main halyard. For the aft reef grommet, run a line from the aft part of the boom up thru the grommet, back down to a block on the other side of the aft end of the boom and fwd to a cleat that is easily reached from your position while tensioning the halyard. G M Hyde Sent from my iPad-Mini
On Nov 16, 2013, at 3:48 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
I am doing some re-rigging of M15 Kestrel. Just received my sails from JudyB and Hyde a few weeks ago. Sadly, the jib is too big! So, it is being remade. Just one of those things.
In any event, I am going to set up a 3-1 outhaul per a previous photo supplied by one of you guys. Looks good.
But I am grappling with the best way to set up a better downhaul. My current setup is a 2-1 going only through the cunningham. Basically there is an eyestrap on one side of the mast, and the line goes from there up through the cringle, and then down to a jam cleat. Not a very nice setup, and the thing is too high anyway so the purchase is not good. I want to get perhaps 4-1, but don’t want to lead it aft. I am just having a hard time visualizing the thing. A cascading system would work I think, but I just have a hard time understanding the geometry. Furthermore, easy rigging and derigging is a must. I want to use the downhaul instead, since there is a ring on my floating gooseneck for that purpose, and that should work as well or better than the cunningham. I will mount much lower on the mast. Any ideas here??
-- Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel"
I definitely have a setup that works now with a 2-1, and no need to tension the main halyard again. I have a cunningham, and usually use that for tensioning the luff. I have my reefing set up well, and it works well. I am going to change my outhaul to be more adjustable. Daniel On Nov 16, 2013, at 7:22 PM, GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
Dan: If you have a slug mainsail jus tie a short loop of cord thru the fwd reef grommet. You can stand up and pull the fwd part of the sail down and hook the loop on you mast cleat, then re-tension the main halyard. For the aft reef grommet, run a line from the aft part of the boom up thru the grommet, back down to a block on the other side of the aft end of the boom and fwd to a cleat that is easily reached from your position while tensioning the halyard.
G M Hyde Sent from my iPad-Mini
On Nov 16, 2013, at 3:48 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
I am doing some re-rigging of M15 Kestrel. Just received my sails from JudyB and Hyde a few weeks ago. Sadly, the jib is too big! So, it is being remade. Just one of those things.
In any event, I am going to set up a 3-1 outhaul per a previous photo supplied by one of you guys. Looks good.
But I am grappling with the best way to set up a better downhaul. My current setup is a 2-1 going only through the cunningham. Basically there is an eyestrap on one side of the mast, and the line goes from there up through the cringle, and then down to a jam cleat. Not a very nice setup, and the thing is too high anyway so the purchase is not good. I want to get perhaps 4-1, but don’t want to lead it aft. I am just having a hard time visualizing the thing. A cascading system would work I think, but I just have a hard time understanding the geometry. Furthermore, easy rigging and derigging is a must. I want to use the downhaul instead, since there is a ring on my floating gooseneck for that purpose, and that should work as well or better than the cunningham. I will mount much lower on the mast. Any ideas here??
-- Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel"
This is a quite timely conversation for me, as I've recently replaced the mast and boom on my M15. My old mast had the boom fixed, but the new mast has the sailfeed opening very low. I was considering using a floating boom so I don't have to cut another, higher opening for the sail above a fixed boom. David, you mention that you like the fixed boom more. Why is that? Clearly, it's worth it to you to go fixed boom... Daniel, it seems like you like your floating boom. Why? Also, does anyone have a picture of a floating boom gooseneck on their M15? It'd be great to see what one looks like. Thus far I've been envisioning a slug attached to 1/2 of the gooseneck that would ride up and down the sail slot. The stop is something I overlooked! Thanks to all for any pro/con discussion on fixed vs floating boom. I've done some reading on it and it seems to be a matter of preference... Really, I just need to make a decision on whether or not to cut a new hole in the mast to feed the sail. Good stuff! Thanks all! Chris M15 Persephone On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
I definitely have a setup that works now with a 2-1, and no need to tension the main halyard again. I have a cunningham, and usually use that for tensioning the luff. I have my reefing set up well, and it works well. I am going to change my outhaul to be more adjustable.
Daniel On Nov 16, 2013, at 7:22 PM, GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
Dan: If you have a slug mainsail jus tie a short loop of cord thru the fwd reef grommet. You can stand up and pull the fwd part of the sail down and hook the loop on you mast cleat, then re-tension the main halyard. For the aft reef grommet, run a line from the aft part of the boom up thru the grommet, back down to a block on the other side of the aft end of the boom and fwd to a cleat that is easily reached from your position while tensioning the halyard.
G M Hyde Sent from my iPad-Mini
On Nov 16, 2013, at 3:48 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
I am doing some re-rigging of M15 Kestrel. Just received my sails from JudyB and Hyde a few weeks ago. Sadly, the jib is too big! So, it is being remade. Just one of those things.
In any event, I am going to set up a 3-1 outhaul per a previous photo supplied by one of you guys. Looks good.
But I am grappling with the best way to set up a better downhaul. My current setup is a 2-1 going only through the cunningham. Basically there is an eyestrap on one side of the mast, and the line goes from there up through the cringle, and then down to a jam cleat. Not a very nice setup, and the thing is too high anyway so the purchase is not good. I want to get perhaps 4-1, but don’t want to lead it aft. I am just having a hard time visualizing the thing. A cascading system would work I think, but I just have a hard time understanding the geometry. Furthermore, easy rigging and derigging is a must. I want to use the downhaul instead, since there is a ring on my floating gooseneck for that purpose, and that should work as well or better than the cunningham. I will mount much lower on the mast. Any ideas here??
-- Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel"
-- Chris
Chris (and others reading): to get an idea for what the sliding gooseneck fitting looks like follow this link - https://www.dwyermast.com/itemdetails.asp?itemID=30 look at item #8, the slide. (the boom side of the gooseneck is close, though not 100% the same as the boats built by Jerry.) my M15, and my M17 had the sailfeed slot's modified by prior owners just a few inches above the mast. a PITA for loading the sail and boom, in additon makes it impossible to use a bolt rope luff (can't reef) and can be problematic for reefing with slugs. this must have become a popular modification at some point as as i've purchased to M-boats that have the same change. to convert my M17 i can't re-bend where the original slot was located as the alum will break. i plan to cut out the slot location. i like the fixed gooseneck for a couple of reasons - #1 is the boom doesn't slam down onto the cabintop when lowing the sail (to take down or when reefing). i've found that using a sail stop works most of the time .. but seems to come loose and then doesn't stop the boom. #2 using a cunningham to control the main's luff tension is very easy and does not require a huge amount of leverage. to control the luff with a moving gooseneck requires a LOT of effort and, because of line stretch, requires repeated adjustment as the wind increases (that is increasingly difficult to do as the wind speed increases). :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 12/6/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote: This is a quite timely conversation for me, as I've recently replaced the mast and boom on my M15. My old mast had the boom fixed, but the new mast has the sailfeed opening very low. I was considering using a floating boom so I don't have to cut another, higher opening for the sail above a fixed boom. David, you mention that you like the fixed boom more. Why is that? Clearly, it's worth it to you to go fixed boom... Daniel, it seems like you like your floating boom. Why? Also, does anyone have a picture of a floating boom gooseneck on their M15? It'd be great to see what one looks like. Thus far I've been envisioning a slug attached to 1/2 of the gooseneck that would ride up and down the sail slot. The stop is something I overlooked! Thanks to all for any pro/con discussion on fixed vs floating boom. I've done some reading on it and it seems to be a matter of preference... Really, I just need to make a decision on whether or not to cut a new hole in the mast to feed the sail. Good stuff! Thanks all! Chris M15 Persephone
I have a floating boom and sail stops along with a Cunningham directly to the sail and they both seem to work out well. George Merry Helen II M15 #602 -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of W David Scobie Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 4:17 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Downhaul system Chris (and others reading): to get an idea for what the sliding gooseneck fitting looks like follow this link - https://www.dwyermast.com/itemdetails.asp?itemID=30 look at item #8, the slide. (the boom side of the gooseneck is close, though not 100% the same as the boats built by Jerry.) my M15, and my M17 had the sailfeed slot's modified by prior owners just a few inches above the mast. a PITA for loading the sail and boom, in additon makes it impossible to use a bolt rope luff (can't reef) and can be problematic for reefing with slugs. this must have become a popular modification at some point as as i've purchased to M-boats that have the same change. to convert my M17 i can't re-bend where the original slot was located as the alum will break. i plan to cut out the slot location. i like the fixed gooseneck for a couple of reasons - #1 is the boom doesn't slam down onto the cabintop when lowing the sail (to take down or when reefing). i've found that using a sail stop works most of the time .. but seems to come loose and then doesn't stop the boom. #2 using a cunningham to control the main's luff tension is very easy and does not require a huge amount of leverage. to control the luff with a moving gooseneck requires a LOT of effort and, because of line stretch, requires repeated adjustment as the wind increases (that is increasingly difficult to do as the wind speed increases). :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 12/6/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote: This is a quite timely conversation for me, as I've recently replaced the mast and boom on my M15. My old mast had the boom fixed, but the new mast has the sailfeed opening very low. I was considering using a floating boom so I don't have to cut another, higher opening for the sail above a fixed boom. David, you mention that you like the fixed boom more. Why is that? Clearly, it's worth it to you to go fixed boom... Daniel, it seems like you like your floating boom. Why? Also, does anyone have a picture of a floating boom gooseneck on their M15? It'd be great to see what one looks like. Thus far I've been envisioning a slug attached to 1/2 of the gooseneck that would ride up and down the sail slot. The stop is something I overlooked! Thanks to all for any pro/con discussion on fixed vs floating boom. I've done some reading on it and it seems to be a matter of preference... Really, I just need to make a decision on whether or not to cut a new hole in the mast to feed the sail. Good stuff! Thanks all! Chris M15 Persephone
participants (5)
-
Chris Smith -
Daniel Rich -
GARY M HYDE -
George R. Iemmolo -
W David Scobie