Hello Folks, I have a leaky port window on my 1977 M17. These windows have the two-part aluminum frame with the exterior frame holding the "glass" and an inner frame which screws into the exterior frame from the inside, holding the window in place. I managed to get the window out of the hull and the "glass" out of the frame. The window glazing that holds the glass to the frame is very brittle and in one location completely gone. The exterior frame that holds the glass has a single cut in the frame that allowed the window to be removed with a little force applied to open frame. I'm looking for a replacement for the window glazing. Is there a recommended source for this? Would something like this work? https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Glazing-Vinyl-Glass-Thickness/dp/B00O8ZUM6K?th=1 I also saw this kit from Catalina. https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-25/hatches-ports/gasket... If the glazing is not a watertight seal and some sealant is still required, I don't know how I could seal it without making a huge mess, given that the window frame is a single piece with the one slit. At this point I'd like to retain the original aluminum frames and window, but I'm open to suggestions. I've seen the replacement project on Audasea on the photo site. I saw another (non-M boat) where spacers were used to push the window away from the outer edge and butyl caulk used as glazing and sealant in the space created by the spaces. (I think the spacers were temporary.) Thanks in advance for responses. Regards, Rob M17 FIN
Rob. Ronald Cleveland has completely rebuilt his M17 including the window frames. I'm not sure how closely he monitors this email list but he is active on the Facebook group. I encourage you to get in touch with him through Facebook if he doesn't respond to your question on the listproc. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 9:33 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Folks,
I have a leaky port window on my 1977 M17. These windows have the two-part aluminum frame with the exterior frame holding the "glass" and an inner frame which screws into the exterior frame from the inside, holding the window in place.
I managed to get the window out of the hull and the "glass" out of the frame. The window glazing that holds the glass to the frame is very brittle and in one location completely gone. The exterior frame that holds the glass has a single cut in the frame that allowed the window to be removed with a little force applied to open frame.
I'm looking for a replacement for the window glazing. Is there a recommended source for this? Would something like this work?
https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Glazing-Vinyl-Glass-Thickness/dp/B00O8ZUM6K?th=1
I also saw this kit from Catalina.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-25/hatches-ports/gasket...
If the glazing is not a watertight seal and some sealant is still required, I don't know how I could seal it without making a huge mess, given that the window frame is a single piece with the one slit.
At this point I'd like to retain the original aluminum frames and window, but I'm open to suggestions. I've seen the replacement project on Audasea on the photo site. I saw another (non-M boat) where spacers were used to push the window away from the outer edge and butyl caulk used as glazing and sealant in the space created by the spaces. (I think the spacers were temporary.)
Thanks in advance for responses.
Regards, Rob M17 FIN
I ditched my frames and attached new windows directly to the fiberglass using vhb tape and Dow 795. This was over 5 years ago and they have not leaked a drop.. The method is described here: https://www.boatworkstoday.com/videos/installing-new-fixed-portlights/ and here: https://www.thecoastalpassage.com/windows.html Henry Monita On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 11:33 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Folks,
I have a leaky port window on my 1977 M17. These windows have the two-part aluminum frame with the exterior frame holding the "glass" and an inner frame which screws into the exterior frame from the inside, holding the window in place.
I managed to get the window out of the hull and the "glass" out of the frame. The window glazing that holds the glass to the frame is very brittle and in one location completely gone. The exterior frame that holds the glass has a single cut in the frame that allowed the window to be removed with a little force applied to open frame.
I'm looking for a replacement for the window glazing. Is there a recommended source for this? Would something like this work?
https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Glazing-Vinyl-Glass-Thickness/dp/B00O8ZUM6K?th=1
I also saw this kit from Catalina.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-25/hatches-ports/gasket...
If the glazing is not a watertight seal and some sealant is still required, I don't know how I could seal it without making a huge mess, given that the window frame is a single piece with the one slit.
At this point I'd like to retain the original aluminum frames and window, but I'm open to suggestions. I've seen the replacement project on Audasea on the photo site. I saw another (non-M boat) where spacers were used to push the window away from the outer edge and butyl caulk used as glazing and sealant in the space created by the spaces. (I think the spacers were temporary.)
Thanks in advance for responses.
Regards, Rob M17 FIN
I posted on this a couple years back - leaking frames and crazed old plexiglass window material, my M17 from 1974. I pulled out the frames, opened them up (two small pop-rivets) and removed the old plexi and the remains of some kind of tarry black sealant on cabin opening edge and frames. I took them to a local glass shop that had some expertise on this (e.g. boat & trailer windows/ports). They recommended 3/16 tempered "safety" (laminated) glass, saying for a piece that small it was at least as strong/sturdy as any of the plastics and also would not scratch like the plastics, or haze/craze over time. I don't recall for sure but it might have even cost less than the plastics. Wasn't more by any significant amount, for sure. They cut & installed & sealed in the glass & re-riveted the frame. You could just take them the still-riveted frames with old plastic in them and they could open up and clean, would probably charge something for that though. The only complaint I had was, whoever did the sealing job the first try did a sloppy job, not a nice clean fillet/bead. I took them back and pointed it out and they re-did it no extra charge and a much better job. I reinstalled the frames, bedding/sealing with butyl tape. Not a drop comes thru since then and I have lovely crisp clear easy to clean no scratch portlights. So that's one option, and I can recommend it, I'm quite happy with it. cheers, John On 3/27/21 10:06 AM, Henry Rodriguez wrote:
I ditched my frames and attached new windows directly to the fiberglass using vhb tape and Dow 795. This was over 5 years ago and they have not leaked a drop.. The method is described here:
https://www.boatworkstoday.com/videos/installing-new-fixed-portlights/ and here:
https://www.thecoastalpassage.com/windows.html
Henry Monita
On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 11:33 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Folks,
I have a leaky port window on my 1977 M17. These windows have the two-part aluminum frame with the exterior frame holding the "glass" and an inner frame which screws into the exterior frame from the inside, holding the window in place.
I managed to get the window out of the hull and the "glass" out of the frame. The window glazing that holds the glass to the frame is very brittle and in one location completely gone. The exterior frame that holds the glass has a single cut in the frame that allowed the window to be removed with a little force applied to open frame.
I'm looking for a replacement for the window glazing. Is there a recommended source for this? Would something like this work?
https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Glazing-Vinyl-Glass-Thickness/dp/B00O8ZUM6K?th=1
I also saw this kit from Catalina.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-25/hatches-ports/gasket...
If the glazing is not a watertight seal and some sealant is still required, I don't know how I could seal it without making a huge mess, given that the window frame is a single piece with the one slit.
At this point I'd like to retain the original aluminum frames and window, but I'm open to suggestions. I've seen the replacement project on Audasea on the photo site. I saw another (non-M boat) where spacers were used to push the window away from the outer edge and butyl caulk used as glazing and sealant in the space created by the spaces. (I think the spacers were temporary.)
Thanks in advance for responses.
Regards, Rob M17 FIN
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hello Bob. I am looking for the same information for my 1976 M17. Sounds like we have the same windows. In fact, I just tried to post (about 45 minutes ago) fairly similar questions but, once again, received a “mail delivery failed” notice. This happens every time I try to post to this group. Did you see my post, or is this just a coincidence? I just can’t seem to send a e-mail successfully to the Montgomery Group. So I have used the reply option and got in trouble for not changing the subject. I have the address as: ‘montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com’ Do I have something wrong? I have checked out the two helpful links you provided about the window and I have also seen Dave Scobie’s reply. I will follow up on that info as well. Thanks. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Rob Bultman Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 11:33 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Window Glazing Material Hello Folks, I have a leaky port window on my 1977 M17. These windows have the two-part aluminum frame with the exterior frame holding the "glass" and an inner frame which screws into the exterior frame from the inside, holding the window in place. I managed to get the window out of the hull and the "glass" out of the frame. The window glazing that holds the glass to the frame is very brittle and in one location completely gone. The exterior frame that holds the glass has a single cut in the frame that allowed the window to be removed with a little force applied to open frame. I'm looking for a replacement for the window glazing. Is there a recommended source for this? Would something like this work? https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Glazing-Vinyl-Glass-Thickness/dp/B00O8ZUM6K?th=1 I also saw this kit from Catalina. https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-25/hatches-ports/gasket... If the glazing is not a watertight seal and some sealant is still required, I don't know how I could seal it without making a huge mess, given that the window frame is a single piece with the one slit. At this point I'd like to retain the original aluminum frames and window, but I'm open to suggestions. I've seen the replacement project on Audasea on the photo site. I saw another (non-M boat) where spacers were used to push the window away from the outer edge and butyl caulk used as glazing and sealant in the space created by the spaces. (I think the spacers were temporary.) Thanks in advance for responses. Regards, Rob M17 FIN
Gary. What email service are you using? :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 10:10 AM Gary Froeschner <msogggf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Bob.
I am looking for the same information for my 1976 M17. Sounds like we have the same windows.
In fact, I just tried to post (about 45 minutes ago) fairly similar questions but, once again, received a “mail delivery failed” notice. This happens every time I try to post to this group.
Did you see my post, or is this just a coincidence?
I just can’t seem to send a e-mail successfully to the Montgomery Group. So I have used the reply option and got in trouble for not changing the subject.
I have the address as: ‘montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com’ Do I have something wrong?
I have checked out the two helpful links you provided about the window and I have also seen Dave Scobie’s reply. I will follow up on that info as well.
Thanks.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Rob Bultman Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 11:33 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Window Glazing Material
Hello Folks,
I have a leaky port window on my 1977 M17. These windows have the two-part aluminum frame with the exterior frame holding the "glass" and an inner frame which screws into the exterior frame from the inside, holding the window in place.
I managed to get the window out of the hull and the "glass" out of the frame. The window glazing that holds the glass to the frame is very brittle and in one location completely gone. The exterior frame that holds the glass has a single cut in the frame that allowed the window to be removed with a little force applied to open frame.
I'm looking for a replacement for the window glazing. Is there a recommended source for this? Would something like this work?
https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Glazing-Vinyl-Glass-Thickness/dp/B00O8ZUM6K?th=1
I also saw this kit from Catalina.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-25/hatches-ports/gasket...
If the glazing is not a watertight seal and some sealant is still required, I don't know how I could seal it without making a huge mess, given that the window frame is a single piece with the one slit.
At this point I'd like to retain the original aluminum frames and window, but I'm open to suggestions. I've seen the replacement project on Audasea on the photo site. I saw another (non-M boat) where spacers were used to push the window away from the outer edge and butyl caulk used as glazing and sealant in the space created by the spaces. (I think the spacers were temporary.)
Thanks in advance for responses.
Regards, Rob M17 FIN
I have a Monty 17/1977. My window frames didn't leak but were a mess. I chucked them and used some 1/4 plexiglas thru bolted into a wooden frame. The exterior plastic had the edges glazed with my propane torch and relieve bolted through slightly larger holes drilled around the opening perimeter to allow for expansion. The interior wooden frames provided a handy place to fasten simple curtain bars. Monty # 258, "AS-IS". On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 12:16 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Gary.
What email service are you using?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 10:10 AM Gary Froeschner <msogggf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Bob.
I am looking for the same information for my 1976 M17. Sounds like we have the same windows.
In fact, I just tried to post (about 45 minutes ago) fairly similar questions but, once again, received a “mail delivery failed” notice. This happens every time I try to post to this group.
Did you see my post, or is this just a coincidence?
I just can’t seem to send a e-mail successfully to the Montgomery Group. So I have used the reply option and got in trouble for not changing the subject.
I have the address as: ‘montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com’ Do I have something wrong?
I have checked out the two helpful links you provided about the window and I have also seen Dave Scobie’s reply. I will follow up on that info as well.
Thanks.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Rob Bultman Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 11:33 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Window Glazing Material
Hello Folks,
I have a leaky port window on my 1977 M17. These windows have the two-part aluminum frame with the exterior frame holding the "glass" and an inner frame which screws into the exterior frame from the inside, holding the window in place.
I managed to get the window out of the hull and the "glass" out of the frame. The window glazing that holds the glass to the frame is very brittle and in one location completely gone. The exterior frame that holds the glass has a single cut in the frame that allowed the window to be removed with a little force applied to open frame.
I'm looking for a replacement for the window glazing. Is there a recommended source for this? Would something like this work?
https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Glazing-Vinyl-Glass-Thickness/dp/B00O8ZUM6K?th=1
I also saw this kit from Catalina.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-25/hatches-ports/gasket...
If the glazing is not a watertight seal and some sealant is still
required,
I don't know how I could seal it without making a huge mess, given that the window frame is a single piece with the one slit.
At this point I'd like to retain the original aluminum frames and window, but I'm open to suggestions. I've seen the replacement project on Audasea on the photo site. I saw another (non-M boat) where spacers were used to push the window away from the outer edge and butyl caulk used as glazing and sealant in the space created by the spaces. (I think the spacers were temporary.)
Thanks in advance for responses.
Regards, Rob M17 FIN
I use the mail server that comes with Windows 10. I’m not sure what it is called. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Dave Scobie Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 12:16 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Re: Trouble posting & portlight questions Gary. What email service are you using? :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 10:10 AM Gary Froeschner <msogggf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Bob.
I am looking for the same information for my 1976 M17. Sounds like we have the same windows.
In fact, I just tried to post (about 45 minutes ago) fairly similar questions but, once again, received a “mail delivery failed” notice. This happens every time I try to post to this group.
Did you see my post, or is this just a coincidence?
I just can’t seem to send a e-mail successfully to the Montgomery Group. So I have used the reply option and got in trouble for not changing the subject.
I have the address as: ‘montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com’ Do I have something wrong?
I have checked out the two helpful links you provided about the window and I have also seen Dave Scobie’s reply. I will follow up on that info as well.
Thanks.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Rob Bultman Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 11:33 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Window Glazing Material
Hello Folks,
I have a leaky port window on my 1977 M17. These windows have the two-part aluminum frame with the exterior frame holding the "glass" and an inner frame which screws into the exterior frame from the inside, holding the window in place.
I managed to get the window out of the hull and the "glass" out of the frame. The window glazing that holds the glass to the frame is very brittle and in one location completely gone. The exterior frame that holds the glass has a single cut in the frame that allowed the window to be removed with a little force applied to open frame.
I'm looking for a replacement for the window glazing. Is there a recommended source for this? Would something like this work?
https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Glazing-Vinyl-Glass-Thickness/dp/B00O8ZUM6K?th=1
I also saw this kit from Catalina.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-25/hatches-ports/gasket...
If the glazing is not a watertight seal and some sealant is still required, I don't know how I could seal it without making a huge mess, given that the window frame is a single piece with the one slit.
At this point I'd like to retain the original aluminum frames and window, but I'm open to suggestions. I've seen the replacement project on Audasea on the photo site. I saw another (non-M boat) where spacers were used to push the window away from the outer edge and butyl caulk used as glazing and sealant in the space created by the spaces. (I think the spacers were temporary.)
Thanks in advance for responses.
Regards, Rob M17 FIN
As you have a Gmail account try sending a new message to the list using the Google web interface: mail.google.com Maybe Outlook is causing a problem? :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 10:29 AM Gary Froeschner <msogggf@gmail.com> wrote:
I use the mail server that comes with Windows 10. I’m not sure what it is called.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Dave Scobie Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 12:16 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Re: Trouble posting & portlight questions
Gary.
What email service are you using?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 10:10 AM Gary Froeschner <msogggf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Bob.
I am looking for the same information for my 1976 M17. Sounds like we have the same windows.
In fact, I just tried to post (about 45 minutes ago) fairly similar questions but, once again, received a “mail delivery failed” notice. This happens every time I try to post to this group.
Did you see my post, or is this just a coincidence?
I just can’t seem to send a e-mail successfully to the Montgomery Group. So I have used the reply option and got in trouble for not changing the subject.
I have the address as: ‘montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com’ Do I have something wrong?
I have checked out the two helpful links you provided about the window and I have also seen Dave Scobie’s reply. I will follow up on that info as well.
Thanks.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Rob Bultman Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 11:33 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Window Glazing Material
Hello Folks,
I have a leaky port window on my 1977 M17. These windows have the two-part aluminum frame with the exterior frame holding the "glass" and an inner frame which screws into the exterior frame from the inside, holding the window in place.
I managed to get the window out of the hull and the "glass" out of the frame. The window glazing that holds the glass to the frame is very brittle and in one location completely gone. The exterior frame that holds the glass has a single cut in the frame that allowed the window to be removed with a little force applied to open frame.
I'm looking for a replacement for the window glazing. Is there a recommended source for this? Would something like this work?
https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Glazing-Vinyl-Glass-Thickness/dp/B00O8ZUM6K?th=1
I also saw this kit from Catalina.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-25/hatches-ports/gasket...
If the glazing is not a watertight seal and some sealant is still
required,
I don't know how I could seal it without making a huge mess, given that the window frame is a single piece with the one slit.
At this point I'd like to retain the original aluminum frames and window, but I'm open to suggestions. I've seen the replacement project on Audasea on the photo site. I saw another (non-M boat) where spacers were used to push the window away from the outer edge and butyl caulk used as glazing and sealant in the space created by the spaces. (I think the spacers were temporary.)
Thanks in advance for responses.
Regards, Rob M17 FIN
Thanks Dave, that seems to have worked. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Dave Scobie Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 12:34 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Re: Trouble posting As you have a Gmail account try sending a new message to the list using the Google web interface: mail.google.com Maybe Outlook is causing a problem? :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 10:29 AM Gary Froeschner <msogggf@gmail.com> wrote:
I use the mail server that comes with Windows 10. I’m not sure what it is called.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Dave Scobie Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 12:16 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Re: Trouble posting & portlight questions
Gary.
What email service are you using?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 10:10 AM Gary Froeschner <msogggf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Bob.
I am looking for the same information for my 1976 M17. Sounds like we have the same windows.
In fact, I just tried to post (about 45 minutes ago) fairly similar questions but, once again, received a “mail delivery failed” notice. This happens every time I try to post to this group.
Did you see my post, or is this just a coincidence?
I just can’t seem to send a e-mail successfully to the Montgomery Group. So I have used the reply option and got in trouble for not changing the subject.
I have the address as: ‘montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com’ Do I have something wrong?
I have checked out the two helpful links you provided about the window and I have also seen Dave Scobie’s reply. I will follow up on that info as well.
Thanks.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Rob Bultman Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 11:33 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Window Glazing Material
Hello Folks,
I have a leaky port window on my 1977 M17. These windows have the two-part aluminum frame with the exterior frame holding the "glass" and an inner frame which screws into the exterior frame from the inside, holding the window in place.
I managed to get the window out of the hull and the "glass" out of the frame. The window glazing that holds the glass to the frame is very brittle and in one location completely gone. The exterior frame that holds the glass has a single cut in the frame that allowed the window to be removed with a little force applied to open frame.
I'm looking for a replacement for the window glazing. Is there a recommended source for this? Would something like this work?
https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Glazing-Vinyl-Glass-Thickness/dp/B00O8ZUM6K?th=1
I also saw this kit from Catalina.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-25/hatches-ports/gasket...
If the glazing is not a watertight seal and some sealant is still
required,
I don't know how I could seal it without making a huge mess, given that the window frame is a single piece with the one slit.
At this point I'd like to retain the original aluminum frames and window, but I'm open to suggestions. I've seen the replacement project on Audasea on the photo site. I saw another (non-M boat) where spacers were used to push the window away from the outer edge and butyl caulk used as glazing and sealant in the space created by the spaces. (I think the spacers were temporary.)
Thanks in advance for responses.
Regards, Rob M17 FIN
I am installing a permanent, transom mounted, fold down, 4 step, SS ladder on my 1976 M-17. It mounts with 2 clips at the top & 2 round stand-offs at the bottom. The clips have 2 bolts each. The stand offs use 3 bolts each. All the fasteners are ¼”-20 bolts, lock nuts, & fender washers. I’m curious if the group feels that the transom needs to be reinforced for these attachments. My transom above the cockpit seat is 1.125” thick fiberglass and plywood (I think) core. This seems to me adequate for the clip attachments. I think the transom gets a little thinner below the seat, but I think it still should be adequate. What do you guys think? Thanks – Gary Froeschner
Can you send a link to the ladder make/model you are installing? Then we can see how it attaches, how the leverage on it will work and where the stress will be. If it's like most, when someone puts weight on the rungs there will be a pull on the upper attachment points and a push on the lower ones. In general, if you think the motor mount side needs reinforcing (it does), the ladder side all the more so needs reinforcing. On the motor side you've got 30-60+ lbs static weight (depending on what motor you have), and then whatever dynamic force comes from cranking up the throttle rapidly, pushing hard on the bottom of the lever that is the motor shaft, which pushes in on bottom of mount and pulls out on top of mount. On the ladder side, you've got a static weight of whatever you or your heaviest friend who swims from the boat weights - so 200+ lbs potentially. And, whatever dynamic force comes from them hauling whatever their weight is up (and down) the ladder - which is a push in on the bottom (feet) and a pull out on the top (arms) - like the motor, but potentially more force. The longer the step extension below the mount point, the more force. So absolutely I would reinforce it, as much or more as the motor mount side. On my 1974 M17 the transom below the cockpit seat is just hull fiberglass, however many layers were in the layup, but there was no other reinforcing. I remounted the ladder that came with the boat (just a two-step with bottom one flipping up when stowed), putting an epoxy-coated plywood backing plate that is much larger than just covering the bolt points and is epoxied to the transom. Before, when I at ~150 lbs. went up or down the ladder I could see the transom flex. More so my heavier friends. Now, basically no flex at all, solid as a rock. I had previously done same for my motor mount, which all but eliminated transom flexing on that side as well. cheers, John On 3/31/21 11:47 AM, Gary Froeschner wrote:
I am installing a permanent, transom mounted, fold down, 4 step, SS ladder on my 1976 M-17. It mounts with 2 clips at the top & 2 round stand-offs at the bottom. The clips have 2 bolts each. The stand offs use 3 bolts each. All the fasteners are ¼”-20 bolts, lock nuts, & fender washers.
I’m curious if the group feels that the transom needs to be reinforced for these attachments.
My transom above the cockpit seat is 1.125” thick fiberglass and plywood (I think) core. This seems to me adequate for the clip attachments. I think the transom gets a little thinner below the seat, but I think it still should be adequate. What do you guys think?
Thanks – Gary Froeschner
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Gary: What John writes is very detailed and covers all the bases. To add - * yes above the seats is cored and I believe plywood core. you can see that the chainplates bolt straight through this section of the transom (on the older '1st gen outboard motor cutout M17s) and are backed with some washers. I'd use large fender washers for a boarding ladder. * yes, as John wrote, you need a backing plate (in addition to fender washers) for the lower mounts. sharing a picture, or a www-link, of what you want to install would be great as folks can comment if using the same, etc. :: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 12:45 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Can you send a link to the ladder make/model you are installing?
Then we can see how it attaches, how the leverage on it will work and where the stress will be.
If it's like most, when someone puts weight on the rungs there will be a pull on the upper attachment points and a push on the lower ones.
In general, if you think the motor mount side needs reinforcing (it does), the ladder side all the more so needs reinforcing.
On the motor side you've got 30-60+ lbs static weight (depending on what motor you have), and then whatever dynamic force comes from cranking up the throttle rapidly, pushing hard on the bottom of the lever that is the motor shaft, which pushes in on bottom of mount and pulls out on top of mount.
On the ladder side, you've got a static weight of whatever you or your heaviest friend who swims from the boat weights - so 200+ lbs potentially. And, whatever dynamic force comes from them hauling whatever their weight is up (and down) the ladder - which is a push in on the bottom (feet) and a pull out on the top (arms) - like the motor, but potentially more force. The longer the step extension below the mount point, the more force.
So absolutely I would reinforce it, as much or more as the motor mount side.
On my 1974 M17 the transom below the cockpit seat is just hull fiberglass, however many layers were in the layup, but there was no other reinforcing.
I remounted the ladder that came with the boat (just a two-step with bottom one flipping up when stowed), putting an epoxy-coated plywood backing plate that is much larger than just covering the bolt points and is epoxied to the transom.
Before, when I at ~150 lbs. went up or down the ladder I could see the transom flex. More so my heavier friends.
Now, basically no flex at all, solid as a rock. I had previously done same for my motor mount, which all but eliminated transom flexing on that side as well.
cheers, John
On 3/31/21 11:47 AM, Gary Froeschner wrote:
I am installing a permanent, transom mounted, fold down, 4 step, SS ladder on my 1976 M-17. It mounts with 2 clips at the top & 2 round stand-offs at the bottom. The clips have 2 bolts each. The stand offs use 3 bolts each. All the fasteners are ¼”-20 bolts, lock nuts, & fender washers.
I’m curious if the group feels that the transom needs to be reinforced for these attachments.
My transom above the cockpit seat is 1.125” thick fiberglass and plywood (I think) core. This seems to me adequate for the clip attachments. I think the transom gets a little thinner below the seat, but I think it still should be adequate. What do you guys think?
Thanks – Gary Froeschner
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks John & Dave for your reply and advice. I got my ladder online, from Marine Depot, in FL. Model #B00361. This is a small (10” wide) 4 step folding ladder. It will not be my primary ladder but will be one that is always there for emergency. Just incase I take an unscheduled dip while single handling. But you have answered my questions and set me in the right direction. I didn’t realize that the plywood core did not go all the way down to the hull line. Evidently it stops at about the cockpit seat level, I’m guessing. So, I agree, reinforcement is required at the lower standoffs. I think reinforcement is also a wise idea at the top attachments. I have already created an large access panel (16”x8”) to the space under the seat. It should be relatively easy to install the required blocking. I cut the access in to rebuild the cockpit drain a few years back. Don’t regret that yet. Thanks again. This is a great site. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 3:43 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Re: Transom mounted ladder on M17 Gary: What John writes is very detailed and covers all the bases. To add - * yes above the seats is cored and I believe plywood core. you can see that the chainplates bolt straight through this section of the transom (on the older '1st gen outboard motor cutout M17s) and are backed with some washers. I'd use large fender washers for a boarding ladder. * yes, as John wrote, you need a backing plate (in addition to fender washers) for the lower mounts. sharing a picture, or a www-link, of what you want to install would be great as folks can comment if using the same, etc. :: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 12:45 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Can you send a link to the ladder make/model you are installing?
Then we can see how it attaches, how the leverage on it will work and where the stress will be.
If it's like most, when someone puts weight on the rungs there will be a pull on the upper attachment points and a push on the lower ones.
In general, if you think the motor mount side needs reinforcing (it does), the ladder side all the more so needs reinforcing.
On the motor side you've got 30-60+ lbs static weight (depending on what motor you have), and then whatever dynamic force comes from cranking up the throttle rapidly, pushing hard on the bottom of the lever that is the motor shaft, which pushes in on bottom of mount and pulls out on top of mount.
On the ladder side, you've got a static weight of whatever you or your heaviest friend who swims from the boat weights - so 200+ lbs potentially. And, whatever dynamic force comes from them hauling whatever their weight is up (and down) the ladder - which is a push in on the bottom (feet) and a pull out on the top (arms) - like the motor, but potentially more force. The longer the step extension below the mount point, the more force.
So absolutely I would reinforce it, as much or more as the motor mount side.
On my 1974 M17 the transom below the cockpit seat is just hull fiberglass, however many layers were in the layup, but there was no other reinforcing.
I remounted the ladder that came with the boat (just a two-step with bottom one flipping up when stowed), putting an epoxy-coated plywood backing plate that is much larger than just covering the bolt points and is epoxied to the transom.
Before, when I at ~150 lbs. went up or down the ladder I could see the transom flex. More so my heavier friends.
Now, basically no flex at all, solid as a rock. I had previously done same for my motor mount, which all but eliminated transom flexing on that side as well.
cheers, John
On 3/31/21 11:47 AM, Gary Froeschner wrote:
I am installing a permanent, transom mounted, fold down, 4 step, SS ladder on my 1976 M-17. It mounts with 2 clips at the top & 2 round stand-offs at the bottom. The clips have 2 bolts each. The stand offs use 3 bolts each. All the fasteners are ¼”-20 bolts, lock nuts, & fender washers.
I’m curious if the group feels that the transom needs to be reinforced for these attachments.
My transom above the cockpit seat is 1.125” thick fiberglass and plywood (I think) core. This seems to me adequate for the clip attachments. I think the transom gets a little thinner below the seat, but I think it still should be adequate. What do you guys think?
Thanks – Gary Froeschner
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Gary: Is this the ladder? https://www.marinedepotdirect.com/boat-transom-ladder-fold-up-4-step.html The one pictured doesn't seem to only have attachment points for the top. The lower part seems to just rest on some bumpers against the transom. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Thu, Apr 1, 2021, 8:08 AM Gary Froeschner <msogggf@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks John & Dave for your reply and advice.
I got my ladder online, from Marine Depot, in FL. Model #B00361. This is a small (10” wide) 4 step folding ladder. It will not be my primary ladder but will be one that is always there for emergency. Just incase I take an unscheduled dip while single handling.
But you have answered my questions and set me in the right direction. I didn’t realize that the plywood core did not go all the way down to the hull line. Evidently it stops at about the cockpit seat level, I’m guessing. So, I agree, reinforcement is required at the lower standoffs. I think reinforcement is also a wise idea at the top attachments. I have already created an large access panel (16”x8”) to the space under the seat. It should be relatively easy to install the required blocking. I cut the access in to rebuild the cockpit drain a few years back. Don’t regret that yet.
Thanks again. This is a great site.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 3:43 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Re: Transom mounted ladder on M17
Gary:
What John writes is very detailed and covers all the bases.
To add -
* yes above the seats is cored and I believe plywood core. you can see that the chainplates bolt straight through this section of the transom (on the older '1st gen outboard motor cutout M17s) and are backed with some washers. I'd use large fender washers for a boarding ladder.
* yes, as John wrote, you need a backing plate (in addition to fender washers) for the lower mounts.
sharing a picture, or a www-link, of what you want to install would be great as folks can comment if using the same, etc.
:: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 12:45 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Can you send a link to the ladder make/model you are installing?
Then we can see how it attaches, how the leverage on it will work and where the stress will be.
If it's like most, when someone puts weight on the rungs there will be a pull on the upper attachment points and a push on the lower ones.
In general, if you think the motor mount side needs reinforcing (it does), the ladder side all the more so needs reinforcing.
On the motor side you've got 30-60+ lbs static weight (depending on what motor you have), and then whatever dynamic force comes from cranking up the throttle rapidly, pushing hard on the bottom of the lever that is the motor shaft, which pushes in on bottom of mount and pulls out on top of mount.
On the ladder side, you've got a static weight of whatever you or your heaviest friend who swims from the boat weights - so 200+ lbs potentially. And, whatever dynamic force comes from them hauling whatever their weight is up (and down) the ladder - which is a push in on the bottom (feet) and a pull out on the top (arms) - like the motor, but potentially more force. The longer the step extension below the mount point, the more force.
So absolutely I would reinforce it, as much or more as the motor mount side.
On my 1974 M17 the transom below the cockpit seat is just hull fiberglass, however many layers were in the layup, but there was no other reinforcing.
I remounted the ladder that came with the boat (just a two-step with bottom one flipping up when stowed), putting an epoxy-coated plywood backing plate that is much larger than just covering the bolt points and is epoxied to the transom.
Before, when I at ~150 lbs. went up or down the ladder I could see the transom flex. More so my heavier friends.
Now, basically no flex at all, solid as a rock. I had previously done same for my motor mount, which all but eliminated transom flexing on that side as well.
cheers, John
On 3/31/21 11:47 AM, Gary Froeschner wrote:
I am installing a permanent, transom mounted, fold down, 4 step, SS ladder on my 1976 M-17. It mounts with 2 clips at the top & 2 round stand-offs at the bottom. The clips have 2 bolts each. The stand offs use 3 bolts each. All the fasteners are ¼”-20 bolts, lock nuts, & fender washers.
I’m curious if the group feels that the transom needs to be reinforced for these attachments.
My transom above the cockpit seat is 1.125” thick fiberglass and plywood (I think) core. This seems to me adequate for the clip attachments. I think the transom gets a little thinner below the seat, but I think it still should be adequate. What do you guys think?
Thanks – Gary Froeschner
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi: Normally I leave my 75-pound 4-stroke, 4-horse outboard on the transom all the time for the short trips to the lake (14 miles round trip; once a week). However, when I do my cruises in the San Juans, it’s 600 miles over the Blues and Cascades. I have been leaving the motor on the transom. Is that unwise? The motor is too heavy for me to put it on the motor rack on my boat trailer and keep taking it on and off. Any ideas? I’m I damaging the outboard motor rack on the transom. It seems to be tight; no damage after 5 years of this practice. I’m thinking of tradings the Merc in for a lighter motor. Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On 4/1/2021 12:38 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi: Normally I leave my 75-pound 4-stroke, 4-horse outboard on the transom all the time for the short trips to the lake (14 miles round trip; once a week). However, when I do my cruises in the San Juans, it’s 600 miles over the Blues and Cascades. I have been leaving the motor on the transom. Is that unwise? The motor is too heavy for me to put it on the motor rack on my boat trailer and keep taking it on and off. Any ideas? I’m I damaging the outboard motor rack on the transom. It seems to be tight; no damage after 5 years of this practice. I’m thinking of tradings the Merc in for a lighter motor.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
Hi Pete, My first concern is: have your beefed up the transom to support all that bouncing outboard weight as you drive? The 14 mile trip seems to have been OK till now, but 600 miles X 2?? Next problem of leaving the outboard on the transom while traveling.... With today's battery powered cutting tools, anybody that sees your engine hanging there can remove it in minutes by simply cutting away the transom holding the engine. You are much safer if the engine is in the trunk of your car - or inside the boat so that it can't be seen. Why offer someone such a juicy temptation? Connie
Yes this is the ladder I bought. I also bought two round stand offs that attach to the transom and bottom tubes, after you remove the rubber crutch tips, so that the bottom of the ladder is fixed. The standoffs have 2 set screws in each one. They are called “Stainless Round Rail Base” #6848S at the same site. I intend to reinforce the bottom attachment points from the inside, assuming I can reach everything, with ¾” lumber epoxied to the transom and fully coated with epoxy & glass. I will make the backing plate as large as practical. I haven’t opened up my access panel yet to see how that’s going to go. Thanks again Dave & John for your help on this. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, April 1, 2021 10:17 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Re: Transom mounted ladder on M17 Gary: Is this the ladder? https://www.marinedepotdirect.com/boat-transom-ladder-fold-up-4-step.html The one pictured doesn't seem to only have attachment points for the top. The lower part seems to just rest on some bumpers against the transom. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Thu, Apr 1, 2021, 8:08 AM Gary Froeschner <msogggf@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks John & Dave for your reply and advice.
I got my ladder online, from Marine Depot, in FL. Model #B00361. This is a small (10” wide) 4 step folding ladder. It will not be my primary ladder but will be one that is always there for emergency. Just incase I take an unscheduled dip while single handling.
But you have answered my questions and set me in the right direction. I didn’t realize that the plywood core did not go all the way down to the hull line. Evidently it stops at about the cockpit seat level, I’m guessing. So, I agree, reinforcement is required at the lower standoffs. I think reinforcement is also a wise idea at the top attachments. I have already created an large access panel (16”x8”) to the space under the seat. It should be relatively easy to install the required blocking. I cut the access in to rebuild the cockpit drain a few years back. Don’t regret that yet.
Thanks again. This is a great site.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 3:43 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Re: Transom mounted ladder on M17
Gary:
What John writes is very detailed and covers all the bases.
To add -
* yes above the seats is cored and I believe plywood core. you can see that the chainplates bolt straight through this section of the transom (on the older '1st gen outboard motor cutout M17s) and are backed with some washers. I'd use large fender washers for a boarding ladder.
* yes, as John wrote, you need a backing plate (in addition to fender washers) for the lower mounts.
sharing a picture, or a www-link, of what you want to install would be great as folks can comment if using the same, etc.
:: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 12:45 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Can you send a link to the ladder make/model you are installing?
Then we can see how it attaches, how the leverage on it will work and where the stress will be.
If it's like most, when someone puts weight on the rungs there will be a pull on the upper attachment points and a push on the lower ones.
In general, if you think the motor mount side needs reinforcing (it does), the ladder side all the more so needs reinforcing.
On the motor side you've got 30-60+ lbs static weight (depending on what motor you have), and then whatever dynamic force comes from cranking up the throttle rapidly, pushing hard on the bottom of the lever that is the motor shaft, which pushes in on bottom of mount and pulls out on top of mount.
On the ladder side, you've got a static weight of whatever you or your heaviest friend who swims from the boat weights - so 200+ lbs potentially. And, whatever dynamic force comes from them hauling whatever their weight is up (and down) the ladder - which is a push in on the bottom (feet) and a pull out on the top (arms) - like the motor, but potentially more force. The longer the step extension below the mount point, the more force.
So absolutely I would reinforce it, as much or more as the motor mount side.
On my 1974 M17 the transom below the cockpit seat is just hull fiberglass, however many layers were in the layup, but there was no other reinforcing.
I remounted the ladder that came with the boat (just a two-step with bottom one flipping up when stowed), putting an epoxy-coated plywood backing plate that is much larger than just covering the bolt points and is epoxied to the transom.
Before, when I at ~150 lbs. went up or down the ladder I could see the transom flex. More so my heavier friends.
Now, basically no flex at all, solid as a rock. I had previously done same for my motor mount, which all but eliminated transom flexing on that side as well.
cheers, John
On 3/31/21 11:47 AM, Gary Froeschner wrote:
I am installing a permanent, transom mounted, fold down, 4 step, SS ladder on my 1976 M-17. It mounts with 2 clips at the top & 2 round stand-offs at the bottom. The clips have 2 bolts each. The stand offs use 3 bolts each. All the fasteners are ¼”-20 bolts, lock nuts, & fender washers.
I’m curious if the group feels that the transom needs to be reinforced for these attachments.
My transom above the cockpit seat is 1.125” thick fiberglass and plywood (I think) core. This seems to me adequate for the clip attachments. I think the transom gets a little thinner below the seat, but I think it still should be adequate. What do you guys think?
Thanks – Gary Froeschner
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Dave – I’m just checking something. I replied to your message of 4/2/21. It shows that it sent, but I don’t see it on the site. Maybe I can’t see my reply? Can you verify that you received a message from me on 4/2/21? Thanks. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 3:43 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Re: Transom mounted ladder on M17 Gary: What John writes is very detailed and covers all the bases. To add - * yes above the seats is cored and I believe plywood core. you can see that the chainplates bolt straight through this section of the transom (on the older '1st gen outboard motor cutout M17s) and are backed with some washers. I'd use large fender washers for a boarding ladder. * yes, as John wrote, you need a backing plate (in addition to fender washers) for the lower mounts. sharing a picture, or a www-link, of what you want to install would be great as folks can comment if using the same, etc. :: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 12:45 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Can you send a link to the ladder make/model you are installing?
Then we can see how it attaches, how the leverage on it will work and where the stress will be.
If it's like most, when someone puts weight on the rungs there will be a pull on the upper attachment points and a push on the lower ones.
In general, if you think the motor mount side needs reinforcing (it does), the ladder side all the more so needs reinforcing.
On the motor side you've got 30-60+ lbs static weight (depending on what motor you have), and then whatever dynamic force comes from cranking up the throttle rapidly, pushing hard on the bottom of the lever that is the motor shaft, which pushes in on bottom of mount and pulls out on top of mount.
On the ladder side, you've got a static weight of whatever you or your heaviest friend who swims from the boat weights - so 200+ lbs potentially. And, whatever dynamic force comes from them hauling whatever their weight is up (and down) the ladder - which is a push in on the bottom (feet) and a pull out on the top (arms) - like the motor, but potentially more force. The longer the step extension below the mount point, the more force.
So absolutely I would reinforce it, as much or more as the motor mount side.
On my 1974 M17 the transom below the cockpit seat is just hull fiberglass, however many layers were in the layup, but there was no other reinforcing.
I remounted the ladder that came with the boat (just a two-step with bottom one flipping up when stowed), putting an epoxy-coated plywood backing plate that is much larger than just covering the bolt points and is epoxied to the transom.
Before, when I at ~150 lbs. went up or down the ladder I could see the transom flex. More so my heavier friends.
Now, basically no flex at all, solid as a rock. I had previously done same for my motor mount, which all but eliminated transom flexing on that side as well.
cheers, John
On 3/31/21 11:47 AM, Gary Froeschner wrote:
I am installing a permanent, transom mounted, fold down, 4 step, SS ladder on my 1976 M-17. It mounts with 2 clips at the top & 2 round stand-offs at the bottom. The clips have 2 bolts each. The stand offs use 3 bolts each. All the fasteners are ¼”-20 bolts, lock nuts, & fender washers.
I’m curious if the group feels that the transom needs to be reinforced for these attachments.
My transom above the cockpit seat is 1.125” thick fiberglass and plywood (I think) core. This seems to me adequate for the clip attachments. I think the transom gets a little thinner below the seat, but I think it still should be adequate. What do you guys think?
Thanks – Gary Froeschner
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi Gary. Yep, the email from 4/2/21 was received. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Sun, Apr 4, 2021, 8:58 AM Gary Froeschner <msogggf@gmail.com> wrote:
Dave – I’m just checking something. I replied to your message of 4/2/21. It shows that it sent, but I don’t see it on the site. Maybe I can’t see my reply? Can you verify that you received a message from me on 4/2/21? Thanks.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 3:43 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Re: Transom mounted ladder on M17
Gary:
What John writes is very detailed and covers all the bases.
To add -
* yes above the seats is cored and I believe plywood core. you can see that the chainplates bolt straight through this section of the transom (on the older '1st gen outboard motor cutout M17s) and are backed with some washers. I'd use large fender washers for a boarding ladder.
* yes, as John wrote, you need a backing plate (in addition to fender washers) for the lower mounts.
sharing a picture, or a www-link, of what you want to install would be great as folks can comment if using the same, etc.
:: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 12:45 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Can you send a link to the ladder make/model you are installing?
Then we can see how it attaches, how the leverage on it will work and where the stress will be.
If it's like most, when someone puts weight on the rungs there will be a pull on the upper attachment points and a push on the lower ones.
In general, if you think the motor mount side needs reinforcing (it does), the ladder side all the more so needs reinforcing.
On the motor side you've got 30-60+ lbs static weight (depending on what motor you have), and then whatever dynamic force comes from cranking up the throttle rapidly, pushing hard on the bottom of the lever that is the motor shaft, which pushes in on bottom of mount and pulls out on top of mount.
On the ladder side, you've got a static weight of whatever you or your heaviest friend who swims from the boat weights - so 200+ lbs potentially. And, whatever dynamic force comes from them hauling whatever their weight is up (and down) the ladder - which is a push in on the bottom (feet) and a pull out on the top (arms) - like the motor, but potentially more force. The longer the step extension below the mount point, the more force.
So absolutely I would reinforce it, as much or more as the motor mount side.
On my 1974 M17 the transom below the cockpit seat is just hull fiberglass, however many layers were in the layup, but there was no other reinforcing.
I remounted the ladder that came with the boat (just a two-step with bottom one flipping up when stowed), putting an epoxy-coated plywood backing plate that is much larger than just covering the bolt points and is epoxied to the transom.
Before, when I at ~150 lbs. went up or down the ladder I could see the transom flex. More so my heavier friends.
Now, basically no flex at all, solid as a rock. I had previously done same for my motor mount, which all but eliminated transom flexing on that side as well.
cheers, John
On 3/31/21 11:47 AM, Gary Froeschner wrote:
I am installing a permanent, transom mounted, fold down, 4 step, SS ladder on my 1976 M-17. It mounts with 2 clips at the top & 2 round stand-offs at the bottom. The clips have 2 bolts each. The stand offs use 3 bolts each. All the fasteners are ¼”-20 bolts, lock nuts, & fender washers.
I’m curious if the group feels that the transom needs to be reinforced for these attachments.
My transom above the cockpit seat is 1.125” thick fiberglass and plywood (I think) core. This seems to me adequate for the clip attachments. I think the transom gets a little thinner below the seat, but I think it still should be adequate. What do you guys think?
Thanks – Gary Froeschner
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I haven't done this yet myself, but that Catalina kit is the right stuff. The kit is expensive though and you might be able to source the materials on your own for less. From what I've read on this, the vinyl glazing alone is not watertight; you must use the sealant too. Also from what I've read, this is a pretty fussy job and it is not unusual for it to take more than one try to get rid of all the leaks. -----Original Message----- From: Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 12:33 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Window Glazing Material Hello Folks, I have a leaky port window on my 1977 M17. These windows have the two-part aluminum frame with the exterior frame holding the "glass" and an inner frame which screws into the exterior frame from the inside, holding the window in place. I managed to get the window out of the hull and the "glass" out of the frame. The window glazing that holds the glass to the frame is very brittle and in one location completely gone. The exterior frame that holds the glass has a single cut in the frame that allowed the window to be removed with a little force applied to open frame. I'm looking for a replacement for the window glazing. Is there a recommended source for this? Would something like this work? https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Glazing-Vinyl-Glass-Thickness/dp/B00O8ZUM6K?th=1 I also saw this kit from Catalina. https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-25/hatches-ports/gasket... If the glazing is not a watertight seal and some sealant is still required, I don't know how I could seal it without making a huge mess, given that the window frame is a single piece with the one slit. At this point I'd like to retain the original aluminum frames and window, but I'm open to suggestions. I've seen the replacement project on Audasea on the photo site. I saw another (non-M boat) where spacers were used to push the window away from the outer edge and butyl caulk used as glazing and sealant in the space created by the spaces. (I think the spacers were temporary.) Thanks in advance for responses. Regards, Rob M17 FIN
I second the recommendation for butyl tape. On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 8:33 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Folks,
I have a leaky port window on my 1977 M17. These windows have the two-part aluminum frame with the exterior frame holding the "glass" and an inner frame which screws into the exterior frame from the inside, holding the window in place.
I managed to get the window out of the hull and the "glass" out of the frame. The window glazing that holds the glass to the frame is very brittle and in one location completely gone. The exterior frame that holds the glass has a single cut in the frame that allowed the window to be removed with a little force applied to open frame.
I'm looking for a replacement for the window glazing. Is there a recommended source for this? Would something like this work?
https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Glazing-Vinyl-Glass-Thickness/dp/B00O8ZUM6K?th=1
I also saw this kit from Catalina.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-25/hatches-ports/gasket...
If the glazing is not a watertight seal and some sealant is still required, I don't know how I could seal it without making a huge mess, given that the window frame is a single piece with the one slit.
At this point I'd like to retain the original aluminum frames and window, but I'm open to suggestions. I've seen the replacement project on Audasea on the photo site. I saw another (non-M boat) where spacers were used to push the window away from the outer edge and butyl caulk used as glazing and sealant in the space created by the spaces. (I think the spacers were temporary.)
Thanks in advance for responses.
Regards, Rob M17 FIN
participants (10)
-
Conbert Benneck -
Dave Scobie -
Gary Froeschner -
Henry Rodriguez -
John Schinnerer -
michael garcia -
Peter Zimowsky -
Rob Bultman -
swwheatley＠comcast.net -
Thomas Buzzi