Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ? Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts? Thanks Kevin
The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up). If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
What is the best way to place and hold the mahogany rudder in its UP position? Bill M-17 Robbin Windsor, CA -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 7:20 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up). If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
Bill. A line should be there at the transom that goes through a hole in the rudder. Line on the second generation decks goes through the hull deck joint (held there with an 8-knot) down through the rudder and up to a cleat on the transom. On the original decks the line is dead-ended on an eye bolt on the transom; cleat the same. Pull line up to pull up rudder and secure in cleat. simple and easy. A picture attached just taken here at Washington State Fort Flagler State Park where I am on a buoy. You can also see a transom picture that shows the system on my BLOG linked below (it is the top banner picture on the site). Need more details let me know. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:57 AM Bill Dixon <bill@miralee.com> wrote:
What is the best way to place and hold the mahogany rudder in its UP position?
Bill M-17 Robbin Windsor, CA
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 7:20 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up).
If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
The rudder on my M-23, "Robin's Nest" was considerably deeper than the keel with the CB up. Mercifully, the Chesapeake has a sandy bottom, and my few groundings resulted in no damage. The Mahogany rudder could not be raised because of the protruding stainless steel boomkin. So I made a constant chord NACA0012 foil just a few inches shorter than the keel. I also put a Phil Bolger "end-plate" on the new rudder. The new rudder is 720 square inches (underwater) and the old rudder was 540 square inches (underwater). The performance difference was dramatic. That old Mahogany high-aspect rudder looked cool, but performance-wise, it was no match for the new rudder. Before, when pressed, the boat would want to naturally round-up. This is a rare occurrence now....I guess the new rudder (and the end-plate) may provide more lateral resistance than the high-aspect rudder. The new rudder really shines in slow speed maneuvering (docking). The high-aspect rudder was ineffectual. I made a template, as suggested by Scobie. The rudder center was 1/2" ply and I just epoxied wood strips vertical and shaped it with a planer. I coated the rudder with epoxy, paint, and then ablative paint. Judging by comments on other forums, the idea of an end-plate is controversial, but I think for shallow rudders (and airplane wings!), it works fine. YMMV Jerry Wolczanski "Robin's Nest" Flag Harbor Marina St. Leonard, MD On Tue, 2018-06-12 at 07:57 -0700, Bill Dixon wrote:
What is the best way to place and hold the mahogany rudder in its UP position?
Bill M-17 Robbin Windsor, CA
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 7:20 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up).
If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
Endplates on some fast boat rudders is common - seen this in many multihulls. Same idea as on wing keeled boats such as the ever popular Catalina 22. I believe the Jerry built M23s had.the same rudder setup as Idescribed for the M17. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 9:23 AM Gerald Wolczanski <jerrywlinux@comcast.net> wrote:
The rudder on my M-23, "Robin's Nest" was considerably deeper than the keel with the CB up. Mercifully, the Chesapeake has a sandy bottom, and my few groundings resulted in no damage. The Mahogany rudder could not be raised because of the protruding stainless steel boomkin.
So I made a constant chord NACA0012 foil just a few inches shorter than the keel. I also put a Phil Bolger "end-plate" on the new rudder. The new rudder is 720 square inches (underwater) and the old rudder was 540 square inches (underwater).
The performance difference was dramatic. That old Mahogany high-aspect rudder looked cool, but performance-wise, it was no match for the new rudder. Before, when pressed, the boat would want to naturally round-up. This is a rare occurrence now....I guess the new rudder (and the end-plate) may provide more lateral resistance than the high-aspect rudder.
The new rudder really shines in slow speed maneuvering (docking). The high-aspect rudder was ineffectual.
I made a template, as suggested by Scobie. The rudder center was 1/2" ply and I just epoxied wood strips vertical and shaped it with a planer. I coated the rudder with epoxy, paint, and then ablative paint.
Judging by comments on other forums, the idea of an end-plate is controversial, but I think for shallow rudders (and airplane wings!), it works fine. YMMV
Jerry Wolczanski "Robin's Nest" Flag Harbor Marina St. Leonard, MD
On Tue, 2018-06-12 at 07:57 -0700, Bill Dixon wrote:
What is the best way to place and hold the mahogany rudder in its UP position?
Bill M-17 Robbin Windsor, CA
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 7:20 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up).
If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
Usual practice involves running a line (1/4" seems typical) from a pad-eye mounted high on the transom just to one side of the rudder down to a hole drilled in the rudder (near the waterline vertically and near the leading edge laterally) and back up to a cleat (usually a horn cleat or cam cleat) opposite the pad-eye on the other side of the rudder. Newer boats can use a hole drilled in the lip where the deck meets the hull in place of the pad-eye. I have an older boat (no lip to speak of) and I am thinking of putting two flared copper pipes through holes drilled in the transom and bedded in goop to keep the transom core dry. That would avoid cluttering the transom with more hardware, avoid any chance of the rudder hitting said hardware, and allow me to mount the cleat inside the cockpit. All just theoretical at this point. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Bill Dixon Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 10:57 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder What is the best way to place and hold the mahogany rudder in its UP position? Bill M-17 Robbin Windsor, CA -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 7:20 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up). If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
Yep, like Bill & Dave say...I have pad eye on port side, line down through hole in rudder and back up through v-cleat ('clamcleat') with fairlead on stbd side. Very quick & easy to set/release. I have enough slack in end of line that it can hang a few inches over transom into cockpit with rudder down, so without having to reach aft over transom, I can grab it and pull and up comes the rudder. cheers, John S. On 06/12/2018 10:49 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
Usual practice involves running a line (1/4" seems typical) from a pad-eye mounted high on the transom just to one side of the rudder down to a hole drilled in the rudder (near the waterline vertically and near the leading edge laterally) and back up to a cleat (usually a horn cleat or cam cleat) opposite the pad-eye on the other side of the rudder. Newer boats can use a hole drilled in the lip where the deck meets the hull in place of the pad-eye.
I have an older boat (no lip to speak of) and I am thinking of putting two flared copper pipes through holes drilled in the transom and bedded in goop to keep the transom core dry. That would avoid cluttering the transom with more hardware, avoid any chance of the rudder hitting said hardware, and allow me to mount the cleat inside the cockpit. All just theoretical at this point.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Bill Dixon Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 10:57 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
What is the best way to place and hold the mahogany rudder in its UP position?
Bill M-17 Robbin Windsor, CA
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 7:20 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up).
If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Dave, sw and John, Thanks for clear info on mahogany rudder raising. Attached is a photo of mast raising at L. Sonoma. Bill -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of swwheatley@comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 10:50 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder Usual practice involves running a line (1/4" seems typical) from a pad-eye mounted high on the transom just to one side of the rudder down to a hole drilled in the rudder (near the waterline vertically and near the leading edge laterally) and back up to a cleat (usually a horn cleat or cam cleat) opposite the pad-eye on the other side of the rudder. Newer boats can use a hole drilled in the lip where the deck meets the hull in place of the pad-eye. I have an older boat (no lip to speak of) and I am thinking of putting two flared copper pipes through holes drilled in the transom and bedded in goop to keep the transom core dry. That would avoid cluttering the transom with more hardware, avoid any chance of the rudder hitting said hardware, and allow me to mount the cleat inside the cockpit. All just theoretical at this point. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Bill Dixon Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 10:57 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder What is the best way to place and hold the mahogany rudder in its UP position? Bill M-17 Robbin Windsor, CA -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 7:20 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up). If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
You're welcome...did last coat of varnish on rudder refinish yesterday. A few days to cure and the hardware goes back on! Lake Sonoma CA I take it? I did a canoe camping trip there many years ago with my dad. The lake was not at all as full as it looks in your picture...glad to see quite a bit of water there. cheers, John S. On 06/13/2018 03:49 PM, Bill Dixon wrote:
Dave, sw and John,
Thanks for clear info on mahogany rudder raising. Attached is a photo of mast raising at L. Sonoma.
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of swwheatley@comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 10:50 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
Usual practice involves running a line (1/4" seems typical) from a pad-eye mounted high on the transom just to one side of the rudder down to a hole drilled in the rudder (near the waterline vertically and near the leading edge laterally) and back up to a cleat (usually a horn cleat or cam cleat) opposite the pad-eye on the other side of the rudder. Newer boats can use a hole drilled in the lip where the deck meets the hull in place of the pad-eye.
I have an older boat (no lip to speak of) and I am thinking of putting two flared copper pipes through holes drilled in the transom and bedded in goop to keep the transom core dry. That would avoid cluttering the transom with more hardware, avoid any chance of the rudder hitting said hardware, and allow me to mount the cleat inside the cockpit. All just theoretical at this point.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Bill Dixon Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 10:57 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
What is the best way to place and hold the mahogany rudder in its UP position?
Bill M-17 Robbin Windsor, CA
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 7:20 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up).
If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Yes, CA. Lake Sonoma was about 93% full and breezy enough to dissuade power craft. BTW, the mast-raising system was designed for control (no kinked hardware) without needing to manually lift or use a gin pole. Wishing you laminar flow, Bill -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of John Schinnerer Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 3:58 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder You're welcome...did last coat of varnish on rudder refinish yesterday. A few days to cure and the hardware goes back on! Lake Sonoma CA I take it? I did a canoe camping trip there many years ago with my dad. The lake was not at all as full as it looks in your picture...glad to see quite a bit of water there. cheers, John S. On 06/13/2018 03:49 PM, Bill Dixon wrote:
Dave, sw and John,
Thanks for clear info on mahogany rudder raising. Attached is a photo of mast raising at L. Sonoma.
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of swwheatley@comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 10:50 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
Usual practice involves running a line (1/4" seems typical) from a pad-eye mounted high on the transom just to one side of the rudder down to a hole drilled in the rudder (near the waterline vertically and near the leading edge laterally) and back up to a cleat (usually a horn cleat or cam cleat) opposite the pad-eye on the other side of the rudder. Newer boats can use a hole drilled in the lip where the deck meets the hull in place of the pad-eye.
I have an older boat (no lip to speak of) and I am thinking of putting two flared copper pipes through holes drilled in the transom and bedded in goop to keep the transom core dry. That would avoid cluttering the transom with more hardware, avoid any chance of the rudder hitting said hardware, and allow me to mount the cleat inside the cockpit. All just theoretical at this point.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Bill Dixon Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 10:57 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
What is the best way to place and hold the mahogany rudder in its UP position?
Bill M-17 Robbin Windsor, CA
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 7:20 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up).
If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
We tried to go to lake Sonoma in our 17. Could not find a place to raise the mast on land because you had to go under the overpass and onto a steep slope before raising the mast? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Bill Dixon <bill@miralee.com> Date: 6/16/18 4:40 PM (GMT-08:00) To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder Yes, CA. Lake Sonoma was about 93% full and breezy enough to dissuade power craft. BTW, the mast-raising system was designed for control (no kinked hardware) without needing to manually lift or use a gin pole. Wishing you laminar flow, Bill -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of John Schinnerer Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 3:58 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder You're welcome...did last coat of varnish on rudder refinish yesterday. A few days to cure and the hardware goes back on! Lake Sonoma CA I take it? I did a canoe camping trip there many years ago with my dad. The lake was not at all as full as it looks in your picture...glad to see quite a bit of water there. cheers, John S. On 06/13/2018 03:49 PM, Bill Dixon wrote:
Dave, sw and John,
Thanks for clear info on mahogany rudder raising. Attached is a photo of mast raising at L. Sonoma.
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of swwheatley@comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 10:50 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
Usual practice involves running a line (1/4" seems typical) from a pad-eye mounted high on the transom just to one side of the rudder down to a hole drilled in the rudder (near the waterline vertically and near the leading edge laterally) and back up to a cleat (usually a horn cleat or cam cleat) opposite the pad-eye on the other side of the rudder. Newer boats can use a hole drilled in the lip where the deck meets the hull in place of the pad-eye.
I have an older boat (no lip to speak of) and I am thinking of putting two flared copper pipes through holes drilled in the transom and bedded in goop to keep the transom core dry. That would avoid cluttering the transom with more hardware, avoid any chance of the rudder hitting said hardware, and allow me to mount the cleat inside the cockpit. All just theoretical at this point.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Bill Dixon Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 10:57 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
What is the best way to place and hold the mahogany rudder in its UP position?
Bill M-17 Robbin Windsor, CA
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 7:20 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder
The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up).
If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
The solid slide-up rudders, slid up, are actually still a bit deeper than the M17 keel with board up. Mine is at least. I have two rudders at this point - a presumably original, two-pintle, counterbalanced one-piece that does not slide up (#38 1974 M17, must have been before the slide-up was standard). And, a later model slide-up that I bought used from Rick (Davies) here on the list. I don't know if it was from Jerry era, from JO Woodworks, or from Bob era, never thought to ask. I am just completing a refinishing of that one. I thought about taking a few inches off the bottom, but didn't want to risk losing effectiveness, especially when it's slid up. My original fixed and the slide-up are the same depth when the slider is down. All I know about the Rudder Craft ones is that the M17 in the first R2AK had one, and it broke. Twice, I think. Their "bluewater" (heavy duty) version might have been a response to that? cheers, John S. On 06/12/2018 07:19 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up).
If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Agreed. My rudder is dimensionally a very close copy of the original and it grounds before the keel even when fully raised. That can be a problem because it doesn't take much of a grounding to bend the rod the rudder slides up and down on, and it doesn't take much of a bend in the rod to interfere with the sliding action. I may shorten the rudder some day but that too is still theoretical. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of John Schinnerer Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 2:02 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Craft Kick Up Rudder The solid slide-up rudders, slid up, are actually still a bit deeper than the M17 keel with board up. Mine is at least. I have two rudders at this point - a presumably original, two-pintle, counterbalanced one-piece that does not slide up (#38 1974 M17, must have been before the slide-up was standard). And, a later model slide-up that I bought used from Rick (Davies) here on the list. I don't know if it was from Jerry era, from JO Woodworks, or from Bob era, never thought to ask. I am just completing a refinishing of that one. I thought about taking a few inches off the bottom, but didn't want to risk losing effectiveness, especially when it's slid up. My original fixed and the slide-up are the same depth when the slider is down. All I know about the Rudder Craft ones is that the M17 in the first R2AK had one, and it broke. Twice, I think. Their "bluewater" (heavy duty) version might have been a response to that? cheers, John S. On 06/12/2018 07:19 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up).
If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
The partially balanced rudder that John describes are great for helping boat performance ... but not good if you need to raise the rudder. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 11:02 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
The solid slide-up rudders, slid up, are actually still a bit deeper than the M17 keel with board up. Mine is at least.
I have two rudders at this point - a presumably original, two-pintle, counterbalanced one-piece that does not slide up (#38 1974 M17, must have been before the slide-up was standard).
And, a later model slide-up that I bought used from Rick (Davies) here on the list. I don't know if it was from Jerry era, from JO Woodworks, or from Bob era, never thought to ask. I am just completing a refinishing of that one. I thought about taking a few inches off the bottom, but didn't want to risk losing effectiveness, especially when it's slid up.
My original fixed and the slide-up are the same depth when the slider is down.
All I know about the Rudder Craft ones is that the M17 in the first R2AK had one, and it broke. Twice, I think. Their "bluewater" (heavy duty) version might have been a response to that?
cheers, John S.
On 06/12/2018 07:19 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up).
If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Yeah, I am wanting to put the counterbalanced one back on sometime this season and compare performance. I only used it the first fall I had the boat (it was the only one I had at first). I couldn't even put it on at the ramp dock because the lake was down and not deep enough at end of dock. But it was quite responsive. Then it was next season and I started using the slide-up, so never have done a direct comparison. The slide up is certainly OK also...I'm just curious if I can feel a difference. The slide up is actually swept back a bit below water line. It could be vertical. There could even be some counterbalance below the slide-up depth. Rudder design...a whole 'nother can 'o worms... cheers, John S. On 06/12/2018 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
The partially balanced rudder that John describes are great for helping boat performance ... but not good if you need to raise the rudder.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 11:02 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
The solid slide-up rudders, slid up, are actually still a bit deeper than the M17 keel with board up. Mine is at least.
I have two rudders at this point - a presumably original, two-pintle, counterbalanced one-piece that does not slide up (#38 1974 M17, must have been before the slide-up was standard).
And, a later model slide-up that I bought used from Rick (Davies) here on the list. I don't know if it was from Jerry era, from JO Woodworks, or from Bob era, never thought to ask. I am just completing a refinishing of that one. I thought about taking a few inches off the bottom, but didn't want to risk losing effectiveness, especially when it's slid up.
My original fixed and the slide-up are the same depth when the slider is down.
All I know about the Rudder Craft ones is that the M17 in the first R2AK had one, and it broke. Twice, I think. Their "bluewater" (heavy duty) version might have been a response to that?
cheers, John S.
On 06/12/2018 07:19 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up).
If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Jerry knows rudders. Read this - http://www.sagemarine.com/SCA_articles/SCA_pdf/smalltalk_55.pdf (The above opens a PDF document) :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 12:45 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Yeah, I am wanting to put the counterbalanced one back on sometime this season and compare performance. I only used it the first fall I had the boat (it was the only one I had at first). I couldn't even put it on at the ramp dock because the lake was down and not deep enough at end of dock.
But it was quite responsive. Then it was next season and I started using the slide-up, so never have done a direct comparison. The slide up is certainly OK also...I'm just curious if I can feel a difference.
The slide up is actually swept back a bit below water line. It could be vertical. There could even be some counterbalance below the slide-up depth. Rudder design...a whole 'nother can 'o worms...
cheers, John S.
On 06/12/2018 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
The partially balanced rudder that John describes are great for helping boat performance ... but not good if you need to raise the rudder.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 11:02 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
The solid slide-up rudders, slid up, are actually still a bit deeper than the M17 keel with board up. Mine is at least.
I have two rudders at this point - a presumably original, two-pintle, counterbalanced one-piece that does not slide up (#38 1974 M17, must have been before the slide-up was standard).
And, a later model slide-up that I bought used from Rick (Davies) here on the list. I don't know if it was from Jerry era, from JO Woodworks, or from Bob era, never thought to ask. I am just completing a refinishing of that one. I thought about taking a few inches off the bottom, but didn't want to risk losing effectiveness, especially when it's slid up.
My original fixed and the slide-up are the same depth when the slider is down.
All I know about the Rudder Craft ones is that the M17 in the first R2AK had one, and it broke. Twice, I think. Their "bluewater" (heavy duty) version might have been a response to that?
cheers, John S.
On 06/12/2018 07:19 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
The solid mahogany one piece rudders that Jerry made are very good and not at all prone to failure. In the 'up' position they are higher than the keel (centerboard up).
If you believe the rudder shape isn't right look online for a NACA12 foil and make a template to confirm the shape of your boat's. Very easy to refine the shape on a nice piece of wood.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:14 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 7:15 AM Kevin Sandwick <ksandwick@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just curious, Is anybody using the Rudder Craft High Performance Kick Up Rudder on an M-17 ?
Not an inexpensive modification. Any thoughts?
I bought a Rudder Craft (Ruddercraft?) after wrecking the original slide-up rudder. It is well-made, but to my engineering spider sense appears to concentrate a lot of stress around the cheek plates. Very comfortable to use and plenty of control authority. In shallow water you can let the blade trail in the halfway-down position, where it takes only a few inches of water, much less than the keel. David R.
participants (8)
-
Bill Dixon -
Dave Scobie -
David Rifkind -
gail -
Gerald Wolczanski -
John Schinnerer -
Kevin Sandwick -
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