Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring... My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's quite a bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib. Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew. And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...! cheers, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
To clarify this comment... On 10/22/2016 12:04 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: ...
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
I mean that to completely remove the outhaul from the clew would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...there goes the sail, flapping the entire foot, good luck getting that back under control. The routing of the outhaul as shown in the video ought to be fine on a loose-footed main...just don't loose the clew completely, have another line in place to reef. cheers, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks for the link to that calculator! I used the same math to measure my sails but had to do it with pencil and paper. This is really handy. Henry Monita Chiquita On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's quite a bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html
This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib.
Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew.
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
Hi All, Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the sail. BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, versatile working jib for the M17. Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's quite a bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html
This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib.
Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew.
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have. Or, a furling jib... cheers, John S. On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi All, Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the sail. BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, versatile working jib for the M17. Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's quite a bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html
This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib.
Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew.
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On Oct 26, 2016, at 7:20 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Mine came with McKibben sails that are definitely original. There’s a lapper (reefable) that’s probably about 109, a genoa that (if memory serves) says 155 on the bag, and a storm jib that has obviously never been used and is about the size of a pocket handkerchief.
What year is yours? Makes sense though. Wonder what happened to the original lapper from mine? If anyone has a decent used 109%-ish M17 jib (pre-2000 forestay location) they'd like to sell - let me know... cheers, John S. On 10/26/2016 07:31 PM, David Rifkind wrote:
On Oct 26, 2016, at 7:20 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Mine came with McKibben sails that are definitely original. There’s a lapper (reefable) that’s probably about 109, a genoa that (if memory serves) says 155 on the bag, and a storm jib that has obviously never been used and is about the size of a pocket handkerchief.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John, I have a Main and Jib (109) for a M-17 that I'm ready to give away. If you'd like them, let me know and I'll send them both out. Got to take the main if you want the Jib! Thomas Howe 785-550-1169 -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of John Schinnerer Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 11:04 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: jib calculator & outhaul video What year is yours? Makes sense though. Wonder what happened to the original lapper from mine? If anyone has a decent used 109%-ish M17 jib (pre-2000 forestay location) they'd like to sell - let me know... cheers, John S. On 10/26/2016 07:31 PM, David Rifkind wrote:
On Oct 26, 2016, at 7:20 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Mine came with McKibben sails that are definitely original. There’s a lapper (reefable) that’s probably about 109, a genoa that (if memory serves) says 155 on the bag, and a storm jib that has obviously never been used and is about the size of a pocket handkerchief.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thomas, I'll take the main if no one else wants it. Tom B. On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com> wrote:
John, I have a Main and Jib (109) for a M-17 that I'm ready to give away. If you'd like them, let me know and I'll send them both out. Got to take the main if you want the Jib!
Thomas Howe 785-550-1169
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats- bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of John Schinnerer Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 11:04 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: jib calculator & outhaul video
What year is yours?
Makes sense though. Wonder what happened to the original lapper from mine?
If anyone has a decent used 109%-ish M17 jib (pre-2000 forestay location) they'd like to sell - let me know...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 07:31 PM, David Rifkind wrote:
On Oct 26, 2016, at 7:20 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>
wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the
original "high wind" jib.
I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Mine came with McKibben sails that are definitely original. There’s a lapper (reefable) that’s probably about 109, a genoa that (if memory serves) says 155 on the bag, and a storm jib that has obviously never been used and is about the size of a pocket handkerchief.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Tom, send me your address off board and I'll send you the main and John S the Jib. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Buzzi Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 2:11 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: jib calculator & outhaul video Thomas, I'll take the main if no one else wants it. Tom B. On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com> wrote:
John, I have a Main and Jib (109) for a M-17 that I'm ready to give away. If you'd like them, let me know and I'll send them both out. Got to take the main if you want the Jib!
Thomas Howe 785-550-1169
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats- bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of John Schinnerer Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 11:04 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: jib calculator & outhaul video
What year is yours?
Makes sense though. Wonder what happened to the original lapper from mine?
If anyone has a decent used 109%-ish M17 jib (pre-2000 forestay location) they'd like to sell - let me know...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 07:31 PM, David Rifkind wrote:
On Oct 26, 2016, at 7:20 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>
wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the
original "high wind" jib.
I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Mine came with McKibben sails that are definitely original. There’s a lapper (reefable) that’s probably about 109, a genoa that (if memory serves) says 155 on the bag, and a storm jib that has obviously never been used and is about the size of a pocket handkerchief.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hey John, I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on head sail that came originally with the boat... For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time .. I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia straight. Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I have yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler... As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109 that allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109 on the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for it sucks). I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but frankly I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for summer, the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage of wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in "my hood" ... Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in. Keith Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353 On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi All, Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the sail. BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, versatile working jib for the M17. Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's quite a bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html
This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib.
Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew.
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Kieth, I have an Elliot-Patterson 135% Genoa on my CDI furler with a padded luff that lets you take several rolls on the furler without hurting shape or pointing ability much. Also gives you that extra sail in light air. Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Thursday, October 27, 2016, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on head sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia straight. Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I have yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109 that allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109 on the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for it sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but frankly I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for summer, the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage of wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in "my hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi All, Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the sail. BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, versatile working jib for the M17. Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's quite
a
bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html
This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib.
Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew.
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hey Rick, My new 109 that I got with my furler also has the padded luff and indeed the pointing performance with first few rolls remains reasonable but it does seem to roll off a little bit... I would be really interested in your estimate of how much you can reef in your 135 and still keep it pointing reasonably... Keith *Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.* *Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353* On 27 October 2016 at 15:41, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Kieth,
I have an Elliot-Patterson 135% Genoa on my CDI furler with a padded luff that lets you take several rolls on the furler without hurting shape or pointing ability much. Also gives you that extra sail in light air.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Thursday, October 27, 2016, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on head sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia straight. Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I have yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109 that allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109 on the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for it sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but frankly I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for summer, the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage of wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in "my hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi All, Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the sail. BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, versatile working jib for the M17. Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's
quite a
bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html
This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib.
Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew.
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On a breezy day with a single reef in the main I can roll the jib 3 or 4 turns and still sail happily to windward. Never checked to see how many degrees I've actually lost in pointing, but don't get the feeling that it's much. Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Thursday, October 27, 2016, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey Rick,
My new 109 that I got with my furler also has the padded luff and indeed the pointing performance with first few rolls remains reasonable but it does seem to roll off a little bit... I would be really interested in your estimate of how much you can reef in your 135 and still keep it pointing reasonably...
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353*
On 27 October 2016 at 15:41, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Kieth,
I have an Elliot-Patterson 135% Genoa on my CDI furler with a padded luff that lets you take several rolls on the furler without hurting shape or pointing ability much. Also gives you that extra sail in light air.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Thursday, October 27, 2016, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on head sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia straight. Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I have yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109 that allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109 on the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for it sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but frankly I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for summer, the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage of wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in "my hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> <javascript:;>> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi All, Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the sail. BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, versatile working jib for the M17. Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> <javascript:;>> wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's
quite a
bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html
This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib.
Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew.
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I think the loss of pointing ability when you furl a roller furling genoa has more to do with angle of attack than anything else. As the clew moves forward, angle of attack increases, just as it would if you swapped a hanked-on genoa out for a hanked-on jib, assuming all are sheeted outside the shrouds. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Davies" <jdavies104@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 9:20:58 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: jib calculator & outhaul video On a breezy day with a single reef in the main I can roll the jib 3 or 4 turns and still sail happily to windward. Never checked to see how many degrees I've actually lost in pointing, but don't get the feeling that it's much. Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Thursday, October 27, 2016, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey Rick,
My new 109 that I got with my furler also has the padded luff and indeed the pointing performance with first few rolls remains reasonable but it does seem to roll off a little bit... I would be really interested in your estimate of how much you can reef in your 135 and still keep it pointing reasonably...
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353*
On 27 October 2016 at 15:41, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Kieth,
I have an Elliot-Patterson 135% Genoa on my CDI furler with a padded luff that lets you take several rolls on the furler without hurting shape or pointing ability much. Also gives you that extra sail in light air.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Thursday, October 27, 2016, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on head sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia straight. Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I have yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109 that allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109 on the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for it sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but frankly I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for summer, the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage of wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in "my hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> <javascript:;>> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi All, Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the sail. BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, versatile working jib for the M17. Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> <javascript:;>> wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's
quite a
bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html
This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib.
Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew.
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Keith Your comment on proper headstay tension is of interest as I have a 109 on a CDI Furler. Can you elaborate a bit on the subject? George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails" On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on head sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia straight. Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I have yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109 that allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109 on the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for it sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but frankly I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for summer, the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage of wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in "my hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi All, Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the sail. BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, versatile working jib for the M17. Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's quite
a
bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html
This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib.
Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew.
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hey George, While I am not a "racing guy" and I don't try to wring out every last bit of speed, I do like maintaining my pointing ability heading into brisk/heaver winds... The CDI furler, pvc forestay extrusion and the jib luff padding all combined adds some distributed weight along the headstay resulting in "deeper/saggier" shape which can impair pointing ability into brisk/heavier winds. So now with the furler installed I keep the headstay tension & related backstay tension a little higher to help maintain a flatter headstay shape while staying within reasonable bounds for the rigging ( I have a Loos gauge to measure the tension) all the while making sure I keep about 8" of mask rake which seems to work pretty well with my set-up ... I am not saying that it points as well as a hanked on jib set-up, but in my experience the improvement is noticeable.. The Elliot Patterson website has a decent summary on head stay sag that can be found here -> http://www.epsails.com/Headstay%20sag.htm Cheers, Keith *Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.* *Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353* On 27 October 2016 at 18:58, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
Keith
Your comment on proper headstay tension is of interest as I have a 109 on a CDI Furler. Can you elaborate a bit on the subject?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on head sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia straight. Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I have yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109 that allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109 on the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for it sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but frankly I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for summer, the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage of wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in "my hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi All, Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the sail. BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, versatile working jib for the M17. Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net
wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's
quite a
bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html
This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib.
Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew.
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks Keith, that all makes sense... Another factor re pointing ability is simply the added windage of the extrusion and any jib fabric wrapped around it, including padding (which keeps the sail shape better but usually adds a bit of bulk - more windage - to do so...). Anything adding windage up there affects pointing ability somewhat. And our boats are on the small end of the size range that these furlers fit; if the same diameter furler extrusion is used on an M17 vs. something in the 22-25 foot range, the effect is more per unit of boat on the M17 (and our masthead rig means the furler may have more windage on an M17 than on a larger boat with a fractional rig w/shorter forestay). Dramatic example of windage effect on pointing: a friend's Corsair (Farrier) 31 tri, with a jib on the forestay and also a screacher on the bowsprit (both furling). Needing a closest possible reach one day, in stiff winds (and some ocean swell, and 3-4' wind waves), the furled screacher just being there at all had a huge effect on pointing ability. We started out of anchorage into the channel and the boat was pointing so poorly right off that we went back to the anchorage, removed and stowed the screacher, and headed back out. Much, much better. Extreme example of course but boy did it make the point about up front windage and pointing ability. cheers, John S. On 10/27/2016 08:46 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Hey George,
While I am not a "racing guy" and I don't try to wring out every last bit of speed, I do like maintaining my pointing ability heading into brisk/heaver winds... The CDI furler, pvc forestay extrusion and the jib luff padding all combined adds some distributed weight along the headstay resulting in "deeper/saggier" shape which can impair pointing ability into brisk/heavier winds.
So now with the furler installed I keep the headstay tension & related backstay tension a little higher to help maintain a flatter headstay shape while staying within reasonable bounds for the rigging ( I have a Loos gauge to measure the tension) all the while making sure I keep about 8" of mask rake which seems to work pretty well with my set-up ...
I am not saying that it points as well as a hanked on jib set-up, but in my experience the improvement is noticeable..
The Elliot Patterson website has a decent summary on head stay sag that can be found here -> http://www.epsails.com/Headstay%20sag.htm
Cheers,
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353*
On 27 October 2016 at 18:58, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
Keith
Your comment on proper headstay tension is of interest as I have a 109 on a CDI Furler. Can you elaborate a bit on the subject?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on head sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia straight. Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I have yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109 that allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109 on the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for it sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but frankly I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for summer, the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage of wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in "my hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi All, Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the sail. BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, versatile working jib for the M17. Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net
wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's
quite a
bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html
This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib.
Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew.
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hey John, Yup I hear you.. If I am travelling in the straight on a day that promises a really "righteous" sail in robust conditions I will drop my top down furled asym off the bowsprit before weighing anchor... Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, Hull #353 On Oct 27, 2016 10:52 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Keith, that all makes sense...
Another factor re pointing ability is simply the added windage of the extrusion and any jib fabric wrapped around it, including padding (which keeps the sail shape better but usually adds a bit of bulk - more windage - to do so...). Anything adding windage up there affects pointing ability somewhat. And our boats are on the small end of the size range that these furlers fit; if the same diameter furler extrusion is used on an M17 vs. something in the 22-25 foot range, the effect is more per unit of boat on the M17 (and our masthead rig means the furler may have more windage on an M17 than on a larger boat with a fractional rig w/shorter forestay).
Dramatic example of windage effect on pointing: a friend's Corsair (Farrier) 31 tri, with a jib on the forestay and also a screacher on the bowsprit (both furling). Needing a closest possible reach one day, in stiff winds (and some ocean swell, and 3-4' wind waves), the furled screacher just being there at all had a huge effect on pointing ability. We started out of anchorage into the channel and the boat was pointing so poorly right off that we went back to the anchorage, removed and stowed the screacher, and headed back out. Much, much better. Extreme example of course but boy did it make the point about up front windage and pointing ability.
cheers, John S.
On 10/27/2016 08:46 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Hey George,
While I am not a "racing guy" and I don't try to wring out every last bit of speed, I do like maintaining my pointing ability heading into brisk/heaver winds... The CDI furler, pvc forestay extrusion and the jib luff padding all combined adds some distributed weight along the headstay resulting in "deeper/saggier" shape which can impair pointing ability into brisk/heavier winds.
So now with the furler installed I keep the headstay tension & related backstay tension a little higher to help maintain a flatter headstay shape while staying within reasonable bounds for the rigging ( I have a Loos gauge to measure the tension) all the while making sure I keep about 8" of mask rake which seems to work pretty well with my set-up ...
I am not saying that it points as well as a hanked on jib set-up, but in my experience the improvement is noticeable..
The Elliot Patterson website has a decent summary on head stay sag that can be found here -> http://www.epsails.com/Headstay%20sag.htm
Cheers,
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353*
On 27 October 2016 at 18:58, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
Keith
Your comment on proper headstay tension is of interest as I have a 109 on a CDI Furler. Can you elaborate a bit on the subject?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on
head
sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia
straight.
Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I
have
yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109
that
allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109
on
the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for
it
sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but
frankly
I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for
summer,
the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage
of
wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in
"my
hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the
original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew"
(they
ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109
working
jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi All,
Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on
the
curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic"
The
true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly
bigger
than a geodesic-space calculation indicates.
Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of
the
sail.
BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent
me,
there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a
great,
versatile working jib for the M17.
Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net
wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
> > My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's > quite
a
bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found:
> http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html > > This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% > (luff
189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true
> (like
60-65%) storm jib.
> > Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted > recently. > Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; > automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew. > > And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a > different
reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in
> bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & > block, > route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope > or
slug
> footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a > loose-footed
main...!
> > cheers, > John S. > > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > > >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hey that's right, you have a cutter rig... :-) So yeah, you could relate directly to that example! cheers, John S. On 10/27/2016 11:28 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Hey John,
Yup I hear you.. If I am travelling in the straight on a day that promises a really "righteous" sail in robust conditions I will drop my top down furled asym off the bowsprit before weighing anchor...
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, Hull #353
On Oct 27, 2016 10:52 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Keith, that all makes sense...
Another factor re pointing ability is simply the added windage of the extrusion and any jib fabric wrapped around it, including padding (which keeps the sail shape better but usually adds a bit of bulk - more windage - to do so...). Anything adding windage up there affects pointing ability somewhat. And our boats are on the small end of the size range that these furlers fit; if the same diameter furler extrusion is used on an M17 vs. something in the 22-25 foot range, the effect is more per unit of boat on the M17 (and our masthead rig means the furler may have more windage on an M17 than on a larger boat with a fractional rig w/shorter forestay).
Dramatic example of windage effect on pointing: a friend's Corsair (Farrier) 31 tri, with a jib on the forestay and also a screacher on the bowsprit (both furling). Needing a closest possible reach one day, in stiff winds (and some ocean swell, and 3-4' wind waves), the furled screacher just being there at all had a huge effect on pointing ability. We started out of anchorage into the channel and the boat was pointing so poorly right off that we went back to the anchorage, removed and stowed the screacher, and headed back out. Much, much better. Extreme example of course but boy did it make the point about up front windage and pointing ability.
cheers, John S.
On 10/27/2016 08:46 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Hey George,
While I am not a "racing guy" and I don't try to wring out every last bit of speed, I do like maintaining my pointing ability heading into brisk/heaver winds... The CDI furler, pvc forestay extrusion and the jib luff padding all combined adds some distributed weight along the headstay resulting in "deeper/saggier" shape which can impair pointing ability into brisk/heavier winds.
So now with the furler installed I keep the headstay tension & related backstay tension a little higher to help maintain a flatter headstay shape while staying within reasonable bounds for the rigging ( I have a Loos gauge to measure the tension) all the while making sure I keep about 8" of mask rake which seems to work pretty well with my set-up ...
I am not saying that it points as well as a hanked on jib set-up, but in my experience the improvement is noticeable..
The Elliot Patterson website has a decent summary on head stay sag that can be found here -> http://www.epsails.com/Headstay%20sag.htm
Cheers,
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353*
On 27 October 2016 at 18:58, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
Keith
Your comment on proper headstay tension is of interest as I have a 109 on a CDI Furler. Can you elaborate a bit on the subject?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on
head
sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia
straight.
Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I
have
yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109
that
allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109
on
the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for
it
sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but
frankly
I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for
summer,
the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage
of
wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in
"my
hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the
original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew"
(they
ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109
working
jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi All, > Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: > That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a > small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is > computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on > the
curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic"
> The
true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly > bigger
than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. > Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of > the
sail.
> BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent > me,
there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a > great,
versatile working jib for the M17.
> Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com > > > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net >
wrote:
> > Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring... > >> >> My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's >> > quite
a
bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: >> http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html >> >> This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% >> > (luff
189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true >> > (like
60-65%) storm jib.
>> >> Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted >> recently. >> Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; >> automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew. >> >> And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a >> > different
reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in
>> bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & >> block, >> route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope >> > or
slug
>> footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a >> > loose-footed
main...!
>> >> cheers, >> John S. >> >> >> -- >> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >> -------------------------------------------- >> - Eco-Living - >> Whole Systems Design Services >> People - Place - Learning - Integration >> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >> http://eco-living.net >> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >> >> >> >> > > -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
*K*eith I am sailing a M15 and the Reefing system uses a wire in the jib luff as the mast forestay along with the upper and lower rollers. No luff tape in this system. I did have a WWP 15 10 years ago with a system that had a extrusion and luff tape as did my last boat a Pearson 23. I had a Loos but it went with the Pearson when I sold it. What tension do you set your forestay to, I can borrow one for setting up next season. Merry Helen II 96 M15 #602 George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails" On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 10:46 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey George,
While I am not a "racing guy" and I don't try to wring out every last bit of speed, I do like maintaining my pointing ability heading into brisk/heaver winds... The CDI furler, pvc forestay extrusion and the jib luff padding all combined adds some distributed weight along the headstay resulting in "deeper/saggier" shape which can impair pointing ability into brisk/heavier winds.
So now with the furler installed I keep the headstay tension & related backstay tension a little higher to help maintain a flatter headstay shape while staying within reasonable bounds for the rigging ( I have a Loos gauge to measure the tension) all the while making sure I keep about 8" of mask rake which seems to work pretty well with my set-up ...
I am not saying that it points as well as a hanked on jib set-up, but in my experience the improvement is noticeable..
The Elliot Patterson website has a decent summary on head stay sag that can be found here -> http://www.epsails.com/Headstay%20sag.htm
Cheers,
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353*
On 27 October 2016 at 18:58, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
Keith
Your comment on proper headstay tension is of interest as I have a 109 on a CDI Furler. Can you elaborate a bit on the subject?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on head sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia straight. Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I have yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109 that allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109 on the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for it sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but frankly I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for summer, the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage of wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in "my hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi All, Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the sail. BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, versatile working jib for the M17. Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net
wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's
quite a
bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html
This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib.
Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew.
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hey George, My M17 rigging is set to provide about 250lb of tension on my forestay... Just trying to keep the forestay as tight as I can while respecting safe working loads for the 1/8 cable. Not sure how useful/valid this info is when translating to your M15, given it's a different rig set up... Hopefully others can provide some commentary on this topic for your M15 Cheers Keith *Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.* *Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353* On 29 October 2016 at 17:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
*K*eith
I am sailing a M15 and the Reefing system uses a wire in the jib luff as the mast forestay along with the upper and lower rollers. No luff tape in this system. I did have a WWP 15 10 years ago with a system that had a extrusion and luff tape as did my last boat a Pearson 23. I had a Loos but it went with the Pearson when I sold it. What tension do you set your forestay to, I can borrow one for setting up next season.
Merry Helen II 96 M15 #602
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 10:46 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey George,
While I am not a "racing guy" and I don't try to wring out every last bit of speed, I do like maintaining my pointing ability heading into brisk/heaver winds... The CDI furler, pvc forestay extrusion and the jib luff padding all combined adds some distributed weight along the headstay resulting in "deeper/saggier" shape which can impair pointing ability into brisk/heavier winds.
So now with the furler installed I keep the headstay tension & related backstay tension a little higher to help maintain a flatter headstay shape while staying within reasonable bounds for the rigging ( I have a Loos gauge to measure the tension) all the while making sure I keep about 8" of mask rake which seems to work pretty well with my set-up ...
I am not saying that it points as well as a hanked on jib set-up, but in my experience the improvement is noticeable..
The Elliot Patterson website has a decent summary on head stay sag that can be found here -> http://www.epsails.com/Headstay%20sag.htm
Cheers,
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353*
On 27 October 2016 at 18:58, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
Keith
Your comment on proper headstay tension is of interest as I have a 109 on a CDI Furler. Can you elaborate a bit on the subject?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on head sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia straight. Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I have yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109 that allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109 on the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for it sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but frankly I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for summer, the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage of wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in "my hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi All, Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the sail. BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, versatile working jib for the M17. Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net
wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring... > > My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's quite a > bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: > http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html > > This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff > 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like > 60-65%) storm jib. > > Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted > recently. > Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; > automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew. > > And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different > reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in > bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & > block, > route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or > slug > footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed > main...! > > cheers, > John S. > > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Keith I will try the 250 lb load next Spring when I set up and see what happens to Mast rake as there is no backstay on a M15 Thanks George Merry Helen 96 M15 #602 George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails" On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 6:11 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey George,
My M17 rigging is set to provide about 250lb of tension on my forestay... Just trying to keep the forestay as tight as I can while respecting safe working loads for the 1/8 cable. Not sure how useful/valid this info is when translating to your M15, given it's a different rig set up... Hopefully others can provide some commentary on this topic for your M15
Cheers
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353*
On 29 October 2016 at 17:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
*K*eith
I am sailing a M15 and the Reefing system uses a wire in the jib luff as the mast forestay along with the upper and lower rollers. No luff tape in this system. I did have a WWP 15 10 years ago with a system that had a extrusion and luff tape as did my last boat a Pearson 23. I had a Loos but it went with the Pearson when I sold it. What tension do you set your forestay to, I can borrow one for setting up next season.
Merry Helen II 96 M15 #602
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 10:46 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey George,
While I am not a "racing guy" and I don't try to wring out every last bit of speed, I do like maintaining my pointing ability heading into brisk/heaver winds... The CDI furler, pvc forestay extrusion and the jib luff padding all combined adds some distributed weight along the headstay resulting in "deeper/saggier" shape which can impair pointing ability into brisk/heavier winds.
So now with the furler installed I keep the headstay tension & related backstay tension a little higher to help maintain a flatter headstay shape while staying within reasonable bounds for the rigging ( I have a Loos gauge to measure the tension) all the while making sure I keep about 8" of mask rake which seems to work pretty well with my set-up ...
I am not saying that it points as well as a hanked on jib set-up, but in my experience the improvement is noticeable..
The Elliot Patterson website has a decent summary on head stay sag that can be found here -> http://www.epsails.com/Headstay%20sag.htm
Cheers,
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353*
On 27 October 2016 at 18:58, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
Keith
Your comment on proper headstay tension is of interest as I have a 109 on a CDI Furler. Can you elaborate a bit on the subject?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on head sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia straight. Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I have yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109 that allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109 on the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for it sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but frankly I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for summer, the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage of wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in "my hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
> Hi All, > Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: > That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a > small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is > computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the > curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The > true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger > than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. > Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the > sail. > BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, > there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, > versatile working jib for the M17. > Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com > > > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net
> wrote: > > Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring... >> >> My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's quite a >> bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: >> http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html >> >> This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff >> 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like >> 60-65%) storm jib. >> >> Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted >> recently. >> Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; >> automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew. >> >> And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different >> reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in >> bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & >> block, >> route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or >> slug >> footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed >> main...! >> >> cheers, >> John S. >> >> >> -- >> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >> -------------------------------------------- >> - Eco-Living - >> Whole Systems Design Services >> People - Place - Learning - Integration >> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >> http://eco-living.net >> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >> >> >> > > -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks for the details Keith... What about safe loads on the compression post, keel, etc. - more stay/shroud tension also adds mast compression tension - anyone have any parameters for keeping that within safe limits? cheers, John S. On 10/31/2016 04:11 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Hey George,
My M17 rigging is set to provide about 250lb of tension on my forestay... Just trying to keep the forestay as tight as I can while respecting safe working loads for the 1/8 cable. Not sure how useful/valid this info is when translating to your M15, given it's a different rig set up... Hopefully others can provide some commentary on this topic for your M15
Cheers
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353*
On 29 October 2016 at 17:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
*K*eith
I am sailing a M15 and the Reefing system uses a wire in the jib luff as the mast forestay along with the upper and lower rollers. No luff tape in this system. I did have a WWP 15 10 years ago with a system that had a extrusion and luff tape as did my last boat a Pearson 23. I had a Loos but it went with the Pearson when I sold it. What tension do you set your forestay to, I can borrow one for setting up next season.
Merry Helen II 96 M15 #602
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 10:46 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey George,
While I am not a "racing guy" and I don't try to wring out every last bit of speed, I do like maintaining my pointing ability heading into brisk/heaver winds... The CDI furler, pvc forestay extrusion and the jib luff padding all combined adds some distributed weight along the headstay resulting in "deeper/saggier" shape which can impair pointing ability into brisk/heavier winds.
So now with the furler installed I keep the headstay tension & related backstay tension a little higher to help maintain a flatter headstay shape while staying within reasonable bounds for the rigging ( I have a Loos gauge to measure the tension) all the while making sure I keep about 8" of mask rake which seems to work pretty well with my set-up ...
I am not saying that it points as well as a hanked on jib set-up, but in my experience the improvement is noticeable..
The Elliot Patterson website has a decent summary on head stay sag that can be found here -> http://www.epsails.com/Headstay%20sag.htm
Cheers,
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353*
On 27 October 2016 at 18:58, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
Keith
Your comment on proper headstay tension is of interest as I have a 109 on a CDI Furler. Can you elaborate a bit on the subject?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank on head sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia straight. Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I have yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of days when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for the 109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler and particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a 109 that allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the 109 on the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a bit, after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian for it sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but frankly I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it was the right choice for me... In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for summer, the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no shortage of wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing in "my hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the original "high wind" jib. I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" (they ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 working jib would be nice to have.
Or, a furling jib...
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
> Hi All, > Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: > That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a > small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is > computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the > curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The > true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger > than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. > Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the > sail. > BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, > there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, > versatile working jib for the M17. > Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com > > > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net
> wrote: > > Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring... >> >> My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's quite a >> bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: >> http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html >> >> This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff >> 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like >> 60-65%) storm jib. >> >> Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted >> recently. >> Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; >> automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew. >> >> And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different >> reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in >> bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & >> block, >> route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or >> slug >> footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed >> main...! >> >> cheers, >> John S. >> >> >> -- >> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >> -------------------------------------------- >> - Eco-Living - >> Whole Systems Design Services >> People - Place - Learning - Integration >> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >> http://eco-living.net >> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >> >> >> > > -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I think, from what I've read, that Jerry prefers to keep everything pretty loose. He doesn't use a furler, though, as far as I know. On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 11:35 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks for the details Keith...
What about safe loads on the compression post, keel, etc. - more stay/shroud tension also adds mast compression tension - anyone have any parameters for keeping that within safe limits?
cheers, John S.
On 10/31/2016 04:11 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Hey George,
My M17 rigging is set to provide about 250lb of tension on my forestay... Just trying to keep the forestay as tight as I can while respecting safe working loads for the 1/8 cable. Not sure how useful/valid this info is when translating to your M15, given it's a different rig set up... Hopefully others can provide some commentary on this topic for your M15
Cheers
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353*
On 29 October 2016 at 17:30, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
*K*eith
I am sailing a M15 and the Reefing system uses a wire in the jib luff as the mast forestay along with the upper and lower rollers. No luff tape in this system. I did have a WWP 15 10 years ago with a system that had a extrusion and luff tape as did my last boat a Pearson 23. I had a Loos but it went with the Pearson when I sold it. What tension do you set your forestay to, I can borrow one for setting up next season.
Merry Helen II 96 M15 #602
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 10:46 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey George,
While I am not a "racing guy" and I don't try to wring out every last bit of speed, I do like maintaining my pointing ability heading into brisk/heaver winds... The CDI furler, pvc forestay extrusion and the jib luff padding all combined adds some distributed weight along the headstay resulting in "deeper/saggier" shape which can impair pointing ability into
brisk/heavier
winds.
So now with the furler installed I keep the headstay tension & related backstay tension a little higher to help maintain a flatter headstay
shape
while staying within reasonable bounds for the rigging ( I have a Loos gauge to measure the tension) all the while making sure I keep about 8"
of
mask rake which seems to work pretty well with my set-up ...
I am not saying that it points as well as a hanked on jib set-up, but in
my
experience the improvement is noticeable..
The Elliot Patterson website has a decent summary on head stay sag that
can
be found here -> http://www.epsails.com/Headstay%20sag.htm
Cheers,
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353*
On 27 October 2016 at 18:58, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com>
wrote:
Keith
Your comment on proper headstay tension is of interest as I have a 109
on a
CDI Furler. Can you elaborate a bit on the subject?
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Keith R. Martin < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey John,
I had an old 120/130 ish (more than a 109 and less than a 150) hank
on
head
sail that came originally with the boat...
For me I think there is a substantial safety benefit in a furler for single handing, which for me is most of the time ..
I now have a 109% on a CDI furler.. I have found it's been a good compromise for single handing the boat up and down the Georgia
straight.
Certainly there have been some lighter wind days in the summer that I
have
yearned for a bit more head sail, but there have also been plenty of
days
when I have had a reef or two in the main and been very thankful for
the
109 on the furler...
As we all know there is a trade off on pointing ability with a furler
and
particularly once the jib is partially furled hence my choice of a
109
that
allows me to defer "reefing the jib". That said the boat performs and points pretty well with no reef or a single reef in the main and the
109
on
the CDI fully deployed (with some attention paid to proper forestay tension) and has just okay performance when the 109 is furled just a
bit,
after that deeper furling is not all that stellar ( that's Canadian
for
it
sucks).
I toyed with putting a 120 on my furler when I first bought it but
frankly
I had not spent enough time in the boat in the straight to be sure it
was
the right choice for me...
In retrospect while a larger jib on the furler is probably okay for
summer,
the fall and spring shoulder seasons up here generally have no
shortage
of
wind, so I think the 109 is a good all season choice for my sailing
in
"my
hood" ...
Just my perspective on the choices I made for my boat and the local conditions I single hand sail in.
Keith
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 Hull #353
On Oct 26, 2016 7:21 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net>
wrote:
Thanks, that means my 80%-ish Reggie Armstrong jib is probably the > original "high wind" jib. > I didn't get a 109% with the boat, just the 80% and the 150% genoa. > I mostly single-hand, or have passengers that are not really "crew" > (they
ain't gonna change a headsail under way), so something like the 109 > working
> jib would be nice to have. > > Or, a furling jib... > > cheers, > John S. > > > > On 10/26/2016 05:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote: > > Hi All, >> Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: >> That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% >> > by a
small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator
>> > is
computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points
>> > on
the
curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as >> > "geodesic"
The
> true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly >> > bigger
> than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. >> Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface >> > of
the
sail. >> BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously >> > sent
me,
> there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a >> > great,
versatile working jib for the M17. >> Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer < >> > john@eco-living.net
wrote: >> >> Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring... >> >>> >>> My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's >>> >> quite
a
> bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: >>> http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html >>> >>> This and other similar formulas found online put it at about >>> >> 81-82%
(luff
> 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true >>> >> (like
60-65%) storm jib. >>> >>> Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted >>> recently. >>> Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; >>> automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew. >>> >>> And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a >>> >> different
reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail >>> >> in
bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current
>>> >> grommet
&
block,
>>> route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a >>> >> boltrope
or
slug >>> footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a >>> >> loose-footed
main...! >>> >>> cheers, >>> John S. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> - Eco-Living - >>> Whole Systems Design Services >>> People - Place - Learning - Integration >>> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >>> http://eco-living.net >>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
Good to know. Thanks! Henry On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC <drjudyb@blumhorst.com
wrote:
Hi All, Just for those of you who are curious about sail sizes: That calculator is pretty cool, but it understates the real LP% by a small amount. The sail has a curved surface, but the calculator is computing the shortest straight-line distance between two points on the curved surface. This kind of measurement is referred to as "geodesic" The true LP, when measured on the sail itself, will always be slightly bigger than a geodesic-space calculation indicates. Sail design software computes dimensions along the curved surface of the sail. BTW, according to the original sailplan that Jerry so generously sent me, there was an 80%-ish LP Heavy wind jib. Also a 109%, which is a great, versatile working jib for the M17. Regards,Judywww.HydeSailsDirect.com
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Tidying up my sails, finally doing some measuring...
My "small" jib is not the 109% standard or working M17 jib, it's quite a bit smaller. Here's one calculator I found: http://sailingfortuitous.com/apps/jibcalc.html
This and other similar formulas found online put it at about 81-82% (luff 189", leach 160", foot 76"). In between a working jib and a true (like 60-65%) storm jib.
Also played with the outhaul method shown in that video I posted recently. Really a good idea AFAICT. Works as clew strap and outhaul both; automagically balances the angle of pull on the clew.
And, makes it much easier to move that same outhaul line to a different reef grommet - no need to tie or untie any knots on flapping sail in bouncing boat. Just loose the outhaul, pull out of current grommet & block, route back through new grommet & block & make fast. With a boltrope or slug footed sail of course. This would be a Very Bad Idea on a loose-footed main...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
participants (10)
-
David Rifkind -
George Iemmolo -
Henry Rodriguez -
John Schinnerer -
Judith Blumhorst, DC -
Keith R. Martin -
Rick Davies -
swwheatley＠comcast.net -
Thomas Buzzi -
Thomas Howe