Re: M_Boats: kick up rudder for M dink and M-17
HI Robbin, Look back in the newsletter archives, there is an article I wrote and pictures of the kick-up rudder I made for my M17. A great addition I added a few years back is a releasing cleat. I got the idea from Idasailor. A lanyard holds the lower section of the rudder in position until it strikes ground or an object in the water. At which point the cleat releases and allows the lower section to swing aft. I tested it several times in the North Channel! Later, Bones ____________________________________________________________ Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4bca0a773341b2d1e93st03vuc
Bones, I am a rare commenter but I would love to see a photo of the kick up rudder you made. I wonder if it would be worth it to make one for my little M-15. Is this rudder countered in front to allow for less weather helm? Thanks Bones. I read your posts and enjoy your long experience and knowledge. ---Larry H. In Sacramento M-15 restored hull 189 by Jerry. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of bownez@juno.com Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 12:21 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick up rudder for M dink and M-17 HI Robbin, Look back in the newsletter archives, there is an article I wrote and pictures of the kick-up rudder I made for my M17. A great addition I added a few years back is a releasing cleat. I got the idea from Idasailor. A lanyard holds the lower section of the rudder in position until it strikes ground or an object in the water. At which point the cleat releases and allows the lower section to swing aft. I tested it several times in the North Channel! Later, Bones ____________________________________________________________ Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4bca0a773341b2d1e93st03vuc _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Hi Monty owners, yesterday I took out my '82 M-17, Seaweed, out for the first time this season. The winds were light, 0-10. I was using the full main with the 155% genoa. Both sails are the original McKibbin ones, 28 years old. What I noticed and was quite surprising was that I got no weather helm whatsoever, and actually got a (fairly small amount of) lee helm, certainly enough that I needed to be pushing the tiller all the time away from me. I thought about what the cause for this may be, and to the best of my understanding of how the sails work this seemed to suggest that my main sail was not putting out enough push as my genoa. (In the past they were very well balanced together). This was happening pretty much no matter how I was trimming the main. I was wondering if you guys think this may be because my main is beat up (the genoa surely looks in better shape). Another problem which I don't fully understand why is happening is that the main bends fairly sharply at the battens' ends (the side of the battens closer to the mast), rather than having a nice, smooth curve. Do you think I need a) new battens; or b) a new main; or c) adjust the rake on the mast. (Don't say I need a new skipper, that I know :-)). Those of you who ordered a new main from E-P, what did it end up costing? Thanks, Andrei.
the 17s mast should rake about one foot to the stern. stays should be 'snug'. new sails are likely in order ... i know these are on my 'short list' for 2011 (or earlier if i find a few extra grand lying around ;-) ). when in light winds do you sit on the leeward side to give the boat some 'lean' away from the wind? did you set the main's sheet traveler to be full windward? dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site - http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Mon, 4/19/10, Andrei Caldararu <andreic@math.wisc.edu> wrote: Hi Monty owners, yesterday I took out my '82 M-17, Seaweed, out for the first time this season. The winds were light, 0-10. I was using the full main with the 155% genoa. Both sails are the original McKibbin ones, 28 years old. What I noticed and was quite surprising was that I got no weather helm whatsoever, and actually got a (fairly small amount of) lee helm, certainly enough that I needed to be pushing the tiller all the time away from me. I thought about what the cause for this may be, and to the best of my understanding of how the sails work this seemed to suggest that my main sail was not putting out enough push as my genoa. (In the past they were very well balanced together). This was happening pretty much no matter how I was trimming the main. I was wondering if you guys think this may be because my main is beat up (the genoa surely looks in better shape). Another problem which I don't fully understand why is happening is that the main bends fairly sharply at the battens' ends (the side of the battens closer to the mast), rather than having a nice, smooth curve. Do you think I need a) new battens; or b) a new main; or c) adjust the rake on the mast. (Don't say I need a new skipper, that I know :-)). Those of you who ordered a new main from E-P, what did it end up costing? Thanks, Andrei.
Speaking of rudders, my IdaSailor kickup rudder recently suffered a split head, so I am using the fixed rudder that came with my M-17 in 2005. I haven't used it much before, and have noticed that in a breeze I have significantly more weather helm that I had with the kickup rudder. The basic shape of both are similar, so I'm not sure why this should be the case. Does anyone have an explanation? Thanks Rick M-17 #6733 Lynne L On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Hughston, Larry <Larry.Hughston@dgs.ca.gov
wrote:
Bones, I am a rare commenter but I would love to see a photo of the kick up rudder you made. I wonder if it would be worth it to make one for my little M-15. Is this rudder countered in front to allow for less weather helm? Thanks Bones. I read your posts and enjoy your long experience and knowledge. ---Larry H. In Sacramento M-15 restored hull 189 by Jerry.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of bownez@juno.com Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 12:21 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick up rudder for M dink and M-17
HI Robbin,
Look back in the newsletter archives, there is an article I wrote and pictures of the kick-up rudder I made for my M17. A great addition I added a few years back is a releasing cleat. I got the idea from Idasailor. A lanyard holds the lower section of the rudder in position until it strikes ground or an object in the water. At which point the cleat releases and allows the lower section to swing aft. I tested it several times in the North Channel!
Later,
Bones
____________________________________________________________ Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4bca0a773341b2d1e93st03vuc
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Rick: I've been considering adding an IdaSailor rudder. What's your overall opinion of the rudder after using one for a while? Performance, build quality? Are all the components strong enough to hold up in the rough stuff? Gordon M-17 "Sapphire" On Apr 19, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Rick Davies wrote:
Speaking of rudders, my IdaSailor kickup rudder recently suffered a split head, so I am using the fixed rudder that came with my M-17 in 2005. I haven't used it much before, and have noticed that in a breeze I have significantly more weather helm that I had with the kickup rudder. The basic shape of both are similar, so I'm not sure why this should be the case. Does anyone have an explanation?
Thanks
Rick M-17 #6733 Lynne L
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Hughston, Larry <Larry.Hughston@dgs.ca.gov
wrote:
Bones, I am a rare commenter but I would love to see a photo of the kick up rudder you made. I wonder if it would be worth it to make one for my little M-15. Is this rudder countered in front to allow for less weather helm? Thanks Bones. I read your posts and enjoy your long experience and knowledge. ---Larry H. In Sacramento M-15 restored hull 189 by Jerry.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of bownez@juno.com Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 12:21 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick up rudder for M dink and M-17
HI Robbin,
Look back in the newsletter archives, there is an article I wrote and pictures of the kick-up rudder I made for my M17. A great addition I added a few years back is a releasing cleat. I got the idea from Idasailor. A lanyard holds the lower section of the rudder in position until it strikes ground or an object in the water. At which point the cleat releases and allows the lower section to swing aft. I tested it several times in the North Channel!
Later,
Bones
____________________________________________________________ Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4bca0a773341b2d1e93st03vuc
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I've been very happy with the rudder, which is well-built and serviceable. A split developed in the wooden head which was beginning to cause slight flexing under load which mad me uneasy, although there was no failure. I've sent it off to IdaSailor, who will replace the wooden head with a plastic one (lifetime guarantee) for under 100 bucks. I'll be glad to get it back. I sail in the Potomac River near DC where there is a lot of shallow water. I tend to use the rudder as a depth sounder. When it hits, the line holding it down slips in its cleat and the rudder comes up. When the water depth increases it's easy to put down again and you're on your way. When I sail with the fixed rudder, I have to sail much more like a fixed-keel boat and watch the channel markers and tide tables! Luckily the river bottom is mostly mud. Rick On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Gordon Gilbert <gordon@financialwriting.net
wrote:
Rick: I've been considering adding an IdaSailor rudder. What's your overall opinion of the rudder after using one for a while? Performance, build quality? Are all the components strong enough to hold up in the rough stuff?
Gordon M-17 "Sapphire"
On Apr 19, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Rick Davies wrote:
Speaking of rudders, my IdaSailor kickup rudder recently suffered a split head, so I am using the fixed rudder that came with my M-17 in 2005. I haven't used it much before, and have noticed that in a breeze I have significantly more weather helm that I had with the kickup rudder. The basic shape of both are similar, so I'm not sure why this should be the case. Does anyone have an explanation?
Thanks
Rick M-17 #6733 Lynne L
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Hughston, Larry < Larry.Hughston@dgs.ca.gov
wrote:
Bones, I am a rare commenter but I would love to see a photo of the kick up rudder you made. I wonder if it would be worth it to make one for my little M-15. Is this rudder countered in front to allow for less weather helm? Thanks Bones. I read your posts and enjoy your long experience and knowledge. ---Larry H. In Sacramento M-15 restored hull 189 by Jerry.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of bownez@juno.com Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 12:21 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick up rudder for M dink and M-17
HI Robbin,
Look back in the newsletter archives, there is an article I wrote and pictures of the kick-up rudder I made for my M17. A great addition I added a few years back is a releasing cleat. I got the idea from Idasailor. A lanyard holds the lower section of the rudder in position until it strikes ground or an object in the water. At which point the cleat releases and allows the lower section to swing aft. I tested it several times in the North Channel!
Later,
Bones
____________________________________________________________ Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4bca0a773341b2d1e93st03vuc
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Rick My M17 came with a 1 piece rudder with no forward offset and Motu iti had a very heavy helm in 15 + winds. Last summer I bought a used semi-balanced { with forward offset } and it made a world of difference. I non have a very light helm in all winds. Eldor M17 Motu iti -----Original Message----- From: Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Mon, Apr 19, 2010 2:25 pm Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick up rudder for M dink and M-17 Speaking of rudders, my IdaSailor kickup rudder recently suffered a split ead, so I am using the fixed rudder that came with my M-17 in 2005. I aven't used it much before, and have noticed that in a breeze I have ignificantly more weather helm that I had with the kickup rudder. The asic shape of both are similar, so I'm not sure why this should be the ase. Does anyone have an explanation? Thanks Rick -17 #6733 ynne L On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Hughston, Larry <Larry.Hughston@dgs.ca.gov wrote:
Bones, I am a rare commenter but I would love to see a photo of the kick up rudder you made. I wonder if it would be worth it to make one for my little M-15. Is this rudder countered in front to allow for less weather helm? Thanks Bones. I read your posts and enjoy your long experience and knowledge. ---Larry H. In Sacramento M-15 restored hull 189 by Jerry.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of bownez@juno.com Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 12:21 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick up rudder for M dink and M-17 HI Robbin, Look back in the newsletter archives, there is an article I wrote and pictures of the kick-up rudder I made for my M17. A great addition I added a few years back is a releasing cleat. I got the idea from Idasailor. A lanyard holds the lower section of the rudder in position until it strikes ground or an object in the water. At which point the cleat releases and allows the lower section to swing aft. I tested it several times in the North Channel! Later, Bones ____________________________________________________________ Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4bca0a773341b2d1e93st03vuc _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! ______________________________________________ ttp://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
On the topic of weather helm, take some time to review all the information here: http://www.msog.org/how-to/mastrake.cfm Note......this is a blend of 15 and 17 information (a lot of it) and the two are not interchangeable. Stick with what is pertinent to your boat. You may have overcooked it on the mast rake. The need for some forward offset to balance the rudder likely means the boat's rigging is not tuned to it's optimum. Put another way, a "balanced" rudder......one with offset........ will go "dead" and will mask a lot of problems, of which weather helm is a symptom. On Apr 20, 2010, at 8:20 AM, eisenee@aol.com wrote:
Rick My M17 came with a 1 piece rudder with no forward offset and Motu iti had a very heavy helm in 15 + winds. Last summer I bought a used semi-balanced { with forward offset } and it made a world of difference. I non have a very light helm in all winds. Eldor M17 Motu iti
-----Original Message----- From: Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Mon, Apr 19, 2010 2:25 pm Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick up rudder for M dink and M-17
Speaking of rudders, my IdaSailor kickup rudder recently suffered a split ead, so I am using the fixed rudder that came with my M-17 in 2005. I aven't used it much before, and have noticed that in a breeze I have ignificantly more weather helm that I had with the kickup rudder. The asic shape of both are similar, so I'm not sure why this should be the ase. Does anyone have an explanation? Thanks Rick -17 #6733 ynne L On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Hughston, Larry <Larry.Hughston@dgs.ca.gov wrote:
Bones, I am a rare commenter but I would love to see a photo of the kick up rudder you made. I wonder if it would be worth it to make one for my little M-15. Is this rudder countered in front to allow for less weather helm? Thanks Bones. I read your posts and enjoy your long experience and knowledge. ---Larry H. In Sacramento M-15 restored hull 189 by Jerry.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of bownez@juno.com Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 12:21 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: kick up rudder for M dink and M-17
HI Robbin,
Look back in the newsletter archives, there is an article I wrote and pictures of the kick-up rudder I made for my M17. A great addition I added a few years back is a releasing cleat. I got the idea from Idasailor. A lanyard holds the lower section of the rudder in position until it strikes ground or an object in the water. At which point the cleat releases and allows the lower section to swing aft. I tested it several times in the North Channel!
Later,
Bones
____________________________________________________________ Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4bca0a773341b2d1e93st03vuc
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
______________________________________________ ttp://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
participants (8)
-
Andrei Caldararu -
bownez＠juno.com -
eisenee＠aol.com -
Gordon Gilbert -
Howard Audsley -
Hughston, Larry -
Rick Davies -
W David Scobie