sailing in gusty winds - what to do
Hello all, I wanted to share the following and am looking for your wisdom. A little bit of background, I am a new(er) owner of a 2007 M15 and (this summer) have been in the process of becoming more-and-more familiar with the boat's traits and capabilities. I've got maybe 10 afternoons of sailing under my belt, all on a local lake in MN. Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only. This last weekend, conditions called for winds between 5-10 MPH - perfect for a day on the water. Within short time, I came to realize that the wind speeds were closer to the 10-mark, and decided this was a perfect opportunity to practice my newly-learned reefing and heaving to skills. I found a calmer area near(er) to shore, and within short time had the boat sailing again with a single reef in the main. All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge. Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting). A few questions: 1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected? 2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions? 3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)? 4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore. Your input is welcomed! Ernie
Have a look at this video from the always inspiring David Grah. https://youtu.be/WTHOmxujaWQ You can clearly see when his boat is overpowered the rudder breaks free and the boat rounds up. An M15 can get knocked down of course, but they are self righting barring truly scary circumstances. Wear your life jacket, dress for the conditions, trust your boat, and practice a lot! Have fun out there! Rusty www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Sep 7, 2022, at 12:15 PM, Ernst van Gulijk <Ernst@nteglobal.com> wrote:
Hello all,
I wanted to share the following and am looking for your wisdom.
A little bit of background, I am a new(er) owner of a 2007 M15 and (this summer) have been in the process of becoming more-and-more familiar with the boat's traits and capabilities. I've got maybe 10 afternoons of sailing under my belt, all on a local lake in MN. Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only.
This last weekend, conditions called for winds between 5-10 MPH - perfect for a day on the water. Within short time, I came to realize that the wind speeds were closer to the 10-mark, and decided this was a perfect opportunity to practice my newly-learned reefing and heaving to skills. I found a calmer area near(er) to shore, and within short time had the boat sailing again with a single reef in the main.
All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge.
Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting). A few questions:
1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected? 2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions? 3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)? 4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore.
Your input is welcomed!
Ernie
For a few thoughts that are not specific to M15 but more in general... On 9/7/22 12:14, Ernst van Gulijk wrote:
Hello all,
... Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only.
Great stuff to practice. Especially sail-out, sail-in. I don't care how many fast reaches someone can do out in the middle of a lake, if they motor to get there and motor back they're missing a lot of sailing skill development (that they might really want when their motor dies out there...). ...
All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge.
Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting).
First of all, "when in doubt, let it out" applies to the main sheet in terms of basic safety. With possible exceptions when you are about to go on the rocks or similar, and losing way is more dangerous than other consequences, letting the sheet out is a better strategy than getting knocked down. The issue with easing the main sheet on an M15 is that you have no backstay, so forestay tension and thus jib luff tension depends somewhat on main sheet tension. If you slack the main sheet, your forestay and thus jib luff will slack some also, so you will lose power in the jib as well. Which might be a good thing, for the moment, in a brief strong gust. But if you are trying to go to windward it's a problem. I got to experience this once on Daniel Rich's M15.
1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected?
If it's a brief passing squall or gust of a few moments, you can just luff along for a bit, as long as you are not in other danger from losing way. As you learn to read the water & wind/sky at your location(s), you may be able to see the wind picking up significantly from a ways across the lake, more than you can yet. And then have a few moments to reef proactively.
2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions?
Yes, that's a good learning strategy. Heave to in order to reef - then you get to practice both. Assuming you have enough room to drift downwind for a few moments without going aground, that is. Which suggests a strategy of not sailing too close to a lee shore when you might need to heave to. Give yourself plenty of space. It's possible to reef without heaving to once you've got it down and don't have to think it through. Head to wind, and quick get the reef in before you fall off too far. But until then, make it easier, heave to first. The gustier and choppier the conditions, the less time you will have to put in the reef if you are not hove to, the wind and waves will push you away from head to wind quicker. Also your reefing setup (lines cleats etc.) can make it easier, or harder, to put in a reef quickly.
3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)?
M15 sailors better to answer that...my guess would be if that kept you from being overpowered, yes. Sail on the main until the squall passes and then raise the jib again. The M17 does not sail so great on main alone, being a masthead rig and more jib-driven. But it does sail still. How about the M15?
4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore.
I think the info has been (from Dave S, Jerry, maybe others as well) that the M-boat hulls are optimal performers at about 15 degrees of heel. Meaning, most speed, least wetted surface. But it won't capsize just from going beyond that - you'd have to get knocked down close to horizontal and have other things go wrong (sail digging into water, taking on lots of water, etc.) to actually capsize. You can heel quite a bit more and keep on sailing. It just takes some getting used to. Let her heel more than you're comfortable with, and see where she does 'stiffen up' (stops heeling more). As the heel increases, the sails catch less wind and the keel weight counters the heel more, which results in the 'stiffening up' at some point. You can always slack the mainsheet if it gets too scary, back off, try again. I still work on this...from sailing mostly un-ballasted dinghies, I have a reflex to not let a boat heel so much. The video of David G that Rusty posted is great, you can see the gusts coming on the water and then heeling him over. He lets it go quite a ways before needing to round up. So you can get an idea of how far over the boat can heel and keep sailing, and/or recover easily. You can also see how when he does slack the mainsheet, the forestay/jib luff loses some tension. Keep sailing! cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John, one clarification on your comments as they pertain to the M15 and fractional rigs. Slackening the sheet does also slacken the forestay. But this gives more fullness to the jib, increasing not decreasing its power, and thus causing more heeling action. The sails should be as flat as possible in strong winds. Lots of tension on the downhaul/cunningham, outhaul, and maintaining sheet tension as much as possible by heading up, not sheeting out. Search for Dave Scobie’s excellent article on strong wind sailing as it pertains to M15’s and fractional rigs. Fair winds! www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Sep 7, 2022, at 4:36 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
For a few thoughts that are not specific to M15 but more in general...
On 9/7/22 12:14, Ernst van Gulijk wrote: Hello all, ... Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only.
Great stuff to practice. Especially sail-out, sail-in. I don't care how many fast reaches someone can do out in the middle of a lake, if they motor to get there and motor back they're missing a lot of sailing skill development (that they might really want when their motor dies out there...).
...
All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge. Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting).
First of all, "when in doubt, let it out" applies to the main sheet in terms of basic safety. With possible exceptions when you are about to go on the rocks or similar, and losing way is more dangerous than other consequences, letting the sheet out is a better strategy than getting knocked down.
The issue with easing the main sheet on an M15 is that you have no backstay, so forestay tension and thus jib luff tension depends somewhat on main sheet tension. If you slack the main sheet, your forestay and thus jib luff will slack some also, so you will lose power in the jib as well. Which might be a good thing, for the moment, in a brief strong gust. But if you are trying to go to windward it's a problem. I got to experience this once on Daniel Rich's M15.
1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected?
If it's a brief passing squall or gust of a few moments, you can just luff along for a bit, as long as you are not in other danger from losing way.
As you learn to read the water & wind/sky at your location(s), you may be able to see the wind picking up significantly from a ways across the lake, more than you can yet. And then have a few moments to reef proactively.
2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions?
Yes, that's a good learning strategy. Heave to in order to reef - then you get to practice both. Assuming you have enough room to drift downwind for a few moments without going aground, that is. Which suggests a strategy of not sailing too close to a lee shore when you might need to heave to. Give yourself plenty of space.
It's possible to reef without heaving to once you've got it down and don't have to think it through. Head to wind, and quick get the reef in before you fall off too far. But until then, make it easier, heave to first. The gustier and choppier the conditions, the less time you will have to put in the reef if you are not hove to, the wind and waves will push you away from head to wind quicker. Also your reefing setup (lines cleats etc.) can make it easier, or harder, to put in a reef quickly.
3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)?
M15 sailors better to answer that...my guess would be if that kept you from being overpowered, yes. Sail on the main until the squall passes and then raise the jib again. The M17 does not sail so great on main alone, being a masthead rig and more jib-driven. But it does sail still. How about the M15?
4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore.
I think the info has been (from Dave S, Jerry, maybe others as well) that the M-boat hulls are optimal performers at about 15 degrees of heel. Meaning, most speed, least wetted surface.
But it won't capsize just from going beyond that - you'd have to get knocked down close to horizontal and have other things go wrong (sail digging into water, taking on lots of water, etc.) to actually capsize. You can heel quite a bit more and keep on sailing. It just takes some getting used to. Let her heel more than you're comfortable with, and see where she does 'stiffen up' (stops heeling more). As the heel increases, the sails catch less wind and the keel weight counters the heel more, which results in the 'stiffening up' at some point. You can always slack the mainsheet if it gets too scary, back off, try again. I still work on this...from sailing mostly un-ballasted dinghies, I have a reflex to not let a boat heel so much.
The video of David G that Rusty posted is great, you can see the gusts coming on the water and then heeling him over. He lets it go quite a ways before needing to round up. So you can get an idea of how far over the boat can heel and keep sailing, and/or recover easily. You can also see how when he does slack the mainsheet, the forestay/jib luff loses some tension.
Keep sailing! cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Yes, agreed Rusty, I didn't go into that detail. By 'losing power' I meant that making forward progress would be reduced. The heeling power is increased by the rounding/fullness of the jib, while the driving power is reduced. So on an M15 rounding up would be better than sheeting out. Except in an emergency where letting go the mainsheet prevents something more catastrophic. On my M17 I have either option, I can round up and luff both sails in a gust, or I can reduce power on the main by sheeting out and/or lowering the traveler and still have the jib providing driving power. cheers, John On 9/7/22 21:51, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats wrote:
John, one clarification on your comments as they pertain to the M15 and fractional rigs.
Slackening the sheet does also slacken the forestay. But this gives more fullness to the jib, increasing not decreasing its power, and thus causing more heeling action. The sails should be as flat as possible in strong winds. Lots of tension on the downhaul/cunningham, outhaul, and maintaining sheet tension as much as possible by heading up, not sheeting out. Search for Dave Scobie’s excellent article on strong wind sailing as it pertains to M15’s and fractional rigs.
Fair winds!
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Sep 7, 2022, at 4:36 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
For a few thoughts that are not specific to M15 but more in general...
On 9/7/22 12:14, Ernst van Gulijk wrote: Hello all, ... Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only.
Great stuff to practice. Especially sail-out, sail-in. I don't care how many fast reaches someone can do out in the middle of a lake, if they motor to get there and motor back they're missing a lot of sailing skill development (that they might really want when their motor dies out there...).
...
All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge. Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting).
First of all, "when in doubt, let it out" applies to the main sheet in terms of basic safety. With possible exceptions when you are about to go on the rocks or similar, and losing way is more dangerous than other consequences, letting the sheet out is a better strategy than getting knocked down.
The issue with easing the main sheet on an M15 is that you have no backstay, so forestay tension and thus jib luff tension depends somewhat on main sheet tension. If you slack the main sheet, your forestay and thus jib luff will slack some also, so you will lose power in the jib as well. Which might be a good thing, for the moment, in a brief strong gust. But if you are trying to go to windward it's a problem. I got to experience this once on Daniel Rich's M15.
1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected?
If it's a brief passing squall or gust of a few moments, you can just luff along for a bit, as long as you are not in other danger from losing way.
As you learn to read the water & wind/sky at your location(s), you may be able to see the wind picking up significantly from a ways across the lake, more than you can yet. And then have a few moments to reef proactively.
2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions?
Yes, that's a good learning strategy. Heave to in order to reef - then you get to practice both. Assuming you have enough room to drift downwind for a few moments without going aground, that is. Which suggests a strategy of not sailing too close to a lee shore when you might need to heave to. Give yourself plenty of space.
It's possible to reef without heaving to once you've got it down and don't have to think it through. Head to wind, and quick get the reef in before you fall off too far. But until then, make it easier, heave to first. The gustier and choppier the conditions, the less time you will have to put in the reef if you are not hove to, the wind and waves will push you away from head to wind quicker. Also your reefing setup (lines cleats etc.) can make it easier, or harder, to put in a reef quickly.
3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)?
M15 sailors better to answer that...my guess would be if that kept you from being overpowered, yes. Sail on the main until the squall passes and then raise the jib again. The M17 does not sail so great on main alone, being a masthead rig and more jib-driven. But it does sail still. How about the M15?
4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore.
I think the info has been (from Dave S, Jerry, maybe others as well) that the M-boat hulls are optimal performers at about 15 degrees of heel. Meaning, most speed, least wetted surface.
But it won't capsize just from going beyond that - you'd have to get knocked down close to horizontal and have other things go wrong (sail digging into water, taking on lots of water, etc.) to actually capsize. You can heel quite a bit more and keep on sailing. It just takes some getting used to. Let her heel more than you're comfortable with, and see where she does 'stiffen up' (stops heeling more). As the heel increases, the sails catch less wind and the keel weight counters the heel more, which results in the 'stiffening up' at some point. You can always slack the mainsheet if it gets too scary, back off, try again. I still work on this...from sailing mostly un-ballasted dinghies, I have a reflex to not let a boat heel so much.
The video of David G that Rusty posted is great, you can see the gusts coming on the water and then heeling him over. He lets it go quite a ways before needing to round up. So you can get an idea of how far over the boat can heel and keep sailing, and/or recover easily. You can also see how when he does slack the mainsheet, the forestay/jib luff loses some tension.
Keep sailing! cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John and I had a lovely sail back in the day with my M15. That is clearly the issue with the M15 is that with no backstay luffing the main bags the jib causing excessive heeling. In stiff winds cranking down on the vang and out haul, and making the jib tight as a drum is needed for that boat. Had I kept my M15 I would have gone with a furling jib because there is no other way to reduce the headsail on that boat. Also, sailing on main alone does not work well at all on an M15. Can’t go to windward. I know, I tried. The balance is terrible and there is excessive weather helm. You gotta have a jib. My SCAMP actually does quite well in a blow, because the luff the main method rather than pinch up into the wind works really well. That is Storer’s preferred method, and I have played with that with the SCAMP where I live, and it is really great. In a gust I just let out the main, and it is really controlled. For my sailing that is an advantage. In equal winds I find the SCAMP actually easier to sail. Now, the M15 is easier to reef for me, because I could heave to so easily. The SCAMP requires a park maneuver, and a quick lowering of the sail into the lazy jacks and then a reefing. Works but the M15 was easier in that regard. The M15 is super safe though. The excessive heel is no fun, but the boat is so stiff it will just stiffen right up. Even if by some chance you dumped it, the wind would dump and she would sit right back up I should think. I never did that. Daniel
On Sep 7, 2022, at 10:45 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Yes, agreed Rusty, I didn't go into that detail. By 'losing power' I meant that making forward progress would be reduced. The heeling power is increased by the rounding/fullness of the jib, while the driving power is reduced. So on an M15 rounding up would be better than sheeting out. Except in an emergency where letting go the mainsheet prevents something more catastrophic.
On my M17 I have either option, I can round up and luff both sails in a gust, or I can reduce power on the main by sheeting out and/or lowering the traveler and still have the jib providing driving power.
cheers, John
On 9/7/22 21:51, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats wrote: John, one clarification on your comments as they pertain to the M15 and fractional rigs. Slackening the sheet does also slacken the forestay. But this gives more fullness to the jib, increasing not decreasing its power, and thus causing more heeling action. The sails should be as flat as possible in strong winds. Lots of tension on the downhaul/cunningham, outhaul, and maintaining sheet tension as much as possible by heading up, not sheeting out. Search for Dave Scobie’s excellent article on strong wind sailing as it pertains to M15’s and fractional rigs. Fair winds! www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Sep 7, 2022, at 4:36 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
For a few thoughts that are not specific to M15 but more in general...
On 9/7/22 12:14, Ernst van Gulijk wrote: Hello all, ... Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only.
Great stuff to practice. Especially sail-out, sail-in. I don't care how many fast reaches someone can do out in the middle of a lake, if they motor to get there and motor back they're missing a lot of sailing skill development (that they might really want when their motor dies out there...).
...
All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge. Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting).
First of all, "when in doubt, let it out" applies to the main sheet in terms of basic safety. With possible exceptions when you are about to go on the rocks or similar, and losing way is more dangerous than other consequences, letting the sheet out is a better strategy than getting knocked down.
The issue with easing the main sheet on an M15 is that you have no backstay, so forestay tension and thus jib luff tension depends somewhat on main sheet tension. If you slack the main sheet, your forestay and thus jib luff will slack some also, so you will lose power in the jib as well. Which might be a good thing, for the moment, in a brief strong gust. But if you are trying to go to windward it's a problem. I got to experience this once on Daniel Rich's M15.
1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected?
If it's a brief passing squall or gust of a few moments, you can just luff along for a bit, as long as you are not in other danger from losing way.
As you learn to read the water & wind/sky at your location(s), you may be able to see the wind picking up significantly from a ways across the lake, more than you can yet. And then have a few moments to reef proactively.
2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions?
Yes, that's a good learning strategy. Heave to in order to reef - then you get to practice both. Assuming you have enough room to drift downwind for a few moments without going aground, that is. Which suggests a strategy of not sailing too close to a lee shore when you might need to heave to. Give yourself plenty of space.
It's possible to reef without heaving to once you've got it down and don't have to think it through. Head to wind, and quick get the reef in before you fall off too far. But until then, make it easier, heave to first. The gustier and choppier the conditions, the less time you will have to put in the reef if you are not hove to, the wind and waves will push you away from head to wind quicker. Also your reefing setup (lines cleats etc.) can make it easier, or harder, to put in a reef quickly.
3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)?
M15 sailors better to answer that...my guess would be if that kept you from being overpowered, yes. Sail on the main until the squall passes and then raise the jib again. The M17 does not sail so great on main alone, being a masthead rig and more jib-driven. But it does sail still. How about the M15?
4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore.
I think the info has been (from Dave S, Jerry, maybe others as well) that the M-boat hulls are optimal performers at about 15 degrees of heel. Meaning, most speed, least wetted surface.
But it won't capsize just from going beyond that - you'd have to get knocked down close to horizontal and have other things go wrong (sail digging into water, taking on lots of water, etc.) to actually capsize. You can heel quite a bit more and keep on sailing. It just takes some getting used to. Let her heel more than you're comfortable with, and see where she does 'stiffen up' (stops heeling more). As the heel increases, the sails catch less wind and the keel weight counters the heel more, which results in the 'stiffening up' at some point. You can always slack the mainsheet if it gets too scary, back off, try again. I still work on this...from sailing mostly un-ballasted dinghies, I have a reflex to not let a boat heel so much.
The video of David G that Rusty posted is great, you can see the gusts coming on the water and then heeling him over. He lets it go quite a ways before needing to round up. So you can get an idea of how far over the boat can heel and keep sailing, and/or recover easily. You can also see how when he does slack the mainsheet, the forestay/jib luff loses some tension.
Keep sailing! cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I have knocked down my M15, and it stands right back up on it's own quickly, especially if you release the mainsheet. The boat cannot be capsized by strong winds- once the sails are in the water they're out of the wind and the boat won't go over any further. When this happened with my friend and I onboard in the California Delta, it wasn't really a scary experience, the boat still felt in control and we were having a fun time, but quickly reduced sail afterwards. Going downwind you can sail on the main alone, but upwind you must always keep it balanced. I highly recommend a smaller size heavy weather jib plus a deep 2nd or 3rd reef point if you plan to regularly sail in heavy winds. My M15 can still go to windward on the windiest days in San Francisco bay using this configuration. Unfortunately, I have not found a way to easily change headsails single handedly, but with someone at the tiller to sail slightly upwind on the main alone, going forward is okay. Singlehanded reefing is pretty relaxing, and can be done slowly and carefully even in the strongest wind once you are hove to, with the reefing line side of the boom facing upwind. I really recommend a WaveFront Marine tiller clutch to make this easier. Also, I don't recommend running lines to the cockpit if your boat doesn't have it already. It's easiest and safest to stand in the companionway for reefing, and you can easily reach halyards on the mast this way. Sincerely, Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2022 11:06:00 PM Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do John and I had a lovely sail back in the day with my M15. That is clearly the issue with the M15 is that with no backstay luffing the main bags the jib causing excessive heeling. In stiff winds cranking down on the vang and out haul, and making the jib tight as a drum is needed for that boat. Had I kept my M15 I would have gone with a furling jib because there is no other way to reduce the headsail on that boat. Also, sailing on main alone does not work well at all on an M15. Can’t go to windward. I know, I tried. The balance is terrible and there is excessive weather helm. You gotta have a jib. My SCAMP actually does quite well in a blow, because the luff the main method rather than pinch up into the wind works really well. That is Storer’s preferred method, and I have played with that with the SCAMP where I live, and it is really great. In a gust I just let out the main, and it is really controlled. For my sailing that is an advantage. In equal winds I find the SCAMP actually easier to sail. Now, the M15 is easier to reef for me, because I could heave to so easily. The SCAMP requires a park maneuver, and a quick lowering of the sail into the lazy jacks and then a reefing. Works but the M15 was easier in that regard. The M15 is super safe though. The excessive heel is no fun, but the boat is so stiff it will just stiffen right up. Even if by some chance you dumped it, the wind would dump and she would sit right back up I should think. I never did that. Daniel
On Sep 7, 2022, at 10:45 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Yes, agreed Rusty, I didn't go into that detail. By 'losing power' I meant that making forward progress would be reduced. The heeling power is increased by the rounding/fullness of the jib, while the driving power is reduced. So on an M15 rounding up would be better than sheeting out. Except in an emergency where letting go the mainsheet prevents something more catastrophic.
On my M17 I have either option, I can round up and luff both sails in a gust, or I can reduce power on the main by sheeting out and/or lowering the traveler and still have the jib providing driving power.
cheers, John
On 9/7/22 21:51, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats wrote: John, one clarification on your comments as they pertain to the M15 and fractional rigs. Slackening the sheet does also slacken the forestay. But this gives more fullness to the jib, increasing not decreasing its power, and thus causing more heeling action. The sails should be as flat as possible in strong winds. Lots of tension on the downhaul/cunningham, outhaul, and maintaining sheet tension as much as possible by heading up, not sheeting out. Search for Dave Scobie’s excellent article on strong wind sailing as it pertains to M15’s and fractional rigs. Fair winds! www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Sep 7, 2022, at 4:36 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
For a few thoughts that are not specific to M15 but more in general...
On 9/7/22 12:14, Ernst van Gulijk wrote: Hello all, ... Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only.
Great stuff to practice. Especially sail-out, sail-in. I don't care how many fast reaches someone can do out in the middle of a lake, if they motor to get there and motor back they're missing a lot of sailing skill development (that they might really want when their motor dies out there...).
...
All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge. Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting).
First of all, "when in doubt, let it out" applies to the main sheet in terms of basic safety. With possible exceptions when you are about to go on the rocks or similar, and losing way is more dangerous than other consequences, letting the sheet out is a better strategy than getting knocked down.
The issue with easing the main sheet on an M15 is that you have no backstay, so forestay tension and thus jib luff tension depends somewhat on main sheet tension. If you slack the main sheet, your forestay and thus jib luff will slack some also, so you will lose power in the jib as well. Which might be a good thing, for the moment, in a brief strong gust. But if you are trying to go to windward it's a problem. I got to experience this once on Daniel Rich's M15.
1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected?
If it's a brief passing squall or gust of a few moments, you can just luff along for a bit, as long as you are not in other danger from losing way.
As you learn to read the water & wind/sky at your location(s), you may be able to see the wind picking up significantly from a ways across the lake, more than you can yet. And then have a few moments to reef proactively.
2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions?
Yes, that's a good learning strategy. Heave to in order to reef - then you get to practice both. Assuming you have enough room to drift downwind for a few moments without going aground, that is. Which suggests a strategy of not sailing too close to a lee shore when you might need to heave to. Give yourself plenty of space.
It's possible to reef without heaving to once you've got it down and don't have to think it through. Head to wind, and quick get the reef in before you fall off too far. But until then, make it easier, heave to first. The gustier and choppier the conditions, the less time you will have to put in the reef if you are not hove to, the wind and waves will push you away from head to wind quicker. Also your reefing setup (lines cleats etc.) can make it easier, or harder, to put in a reef quickly.
3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)?
M15 sailors better to answer that...my guess would be if that kept you from being overpowered, yes. Sail on the main until the squall passes and then raise the jib again. The M17 does not sail so great on main alone, being a masthead rig and more jib-driven. But it does sail still. How about the M15?
4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore.
I think the info has been (from Dave S, Jerry, maybe others as well) that the M-boat hulls are optimal performers at about 15 degrees of heel. Meaning, most speed, least wetted surface.
But it won't capsize just from going beyond that - you'd have to get knocked down close to horizontal and have other things go wrong (sail digging into water, taking on lots of water, etc.) to actually capsize. You can heel quite a bit more and keep on sailing. It just takes some getting used to. Let her heel more than you're comfortable with, and see where she does 'stiffen up' (stops heeling more). As the heel increases, the sails catch less wind and the keel weight counters the heel more, which results in the 'stiffening up' at some point. You can always slack the mainsheet if it gets too scary, back off, try again. I still work on this...from sailing mostly un-ballasted dinghies, I have a reflex to not let a boat heel so much.
The video of David G that Rusty posted is great, you can see the gusts coming on the water and then heeling him over. He lets it go quite a ways before needing to round up. So you can get an idea of how far over the boat can heel and keep sailing, and/or recover easily. You can also see how when he does slack the mainsheet, the forestay/jib luff loses some tension.
Keep sailing! cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
We sail on a rather windy mountain lake prone to hard gusts and rapid wind shifts, and I'll second all that's been said here. In some ways the M15 is the best of both worlds- she is super responsive to helm and sail trim like a light dingy, but with the solidity of a larger boat once she's pushed over a bit. Her responsiveness means she can be initially scary in a breeze to folks not used to her- but its also what makes her a fun and absorbing boat to sail (let the others bob about in heavier boats around with too little sail up trying not to spill their drinks...). I will say that when it is gusty and shifty, an hour or twos sailing can be plenty, and that upwind in a chop she can be a wet boat (wet feet too)- we're lucky to have a quiet dock we can retreat to when wind and waves and constant attention and splashes in the face are enough. So specific thoughts- most just consolidating what others already said: 1) Sail trim is huge- tighten the halyards, down haul, boom vang (if you don't have one, get one) and especially, out-haul to flatten sails as the wind picks up. Rig an out-haul with some purchase that can be adjusted while sailing and use it (tighter as wind is up and headed upwind- loosen as wind drops and/or off the wind). Learning how to tweak sail shape makes a huge difference but is often ignored by casual sailors 2) With flat sails, the M15 does a great job of feathering (depowering when going upwind by sailing just a little closer to the wind than where you would in a lesser breeeze). Set the slot between the jib (sheeted pretty tight) and main so the front third of the main is backwinded but the sheet is still tight, let the windward telltale on the jib lift a bit (if you don't have jib telltales, get em and learn to use em- one of the cheapest big improvements you can make!)- there's a magic spot where the forces shift from pushing you over and tugging on the helm to surging you forward, the bow biting into the waves, you making microadjustments to keep in the sweet spot- those are the moments I dream of when bent over this computer mid-week- 3) Learn to read the water and anticipate puffs and the direction they'll come from- anticipate lifts and headers and steer accordingly, and depower in anticipation of puffs, knowing (at least on our lake) they tend to hit hardest right off then ease off a touch. Use your body weight- not just to flatten the boat when needed (but not too early- the M15 sails best at a moderate angle of heel where wetted area and waterline beam are reduced), but also to move your weight forward and lift that fat stern. With 2 to 3 aboard, as the wind rises she sails best with one person in the standing in companionway (and not just cause less water fills the cockpit from the drain then) 4) Reef when it gets uncomfortable (if the tiller is really fighting you, and you have to pull it hard to windward to sail straight, you'll probably sail faster and easilier with a reef in- look aft and you can see all that drag/turbulence on the rudder is slowing you down). Also read up on adjusting the mast rake for a well balanced helm- a few inches of rake can really change how the boat feels- and when set right, the boat will round right up and depower if you drop the helm but not fight you unnecessarily. 5) Pay attention to all the above about sail trim when you reef too- and make sure the after reefing line is pulling from an angle that pulls the reef cringe aft as well as down, so that you can get the foot of the main tight tight. Baggy sails are not your friend when it blows. 6) My wife loves "Baby jib", an 85% heavy weather jib- not only does it reduce sail area, it reduces the flapping mayhem and amount of muscle needed sheeting the jib when it is blowing, really reducing her fear of tweaking a bad shoulder. A second reef is also great even if you don't use it a lot- when things are rollicking with a reef in you have the security of knowing you can always calm things down- so if you don't have a second reef now and face high winds often, start dreaming about a new set of sails (old sails also don't hold their shape as well, making them baggy even when tightened- and baggy sails aren't your friend). I like the balance of the boat best with the regular jib (Bubba jib now)- but if hanking on baby jib instead means my wife is smiling as we round the point into a lake full of whitecaps, I'm all for it! 7) I find the M15 a joy the sail upwind in a blow- and well behaved on a beam reach or below- but close reaching in gusty/shifty winds can feel unnerving due to the way the sails fill quickly (and the mast moves forward) without a backstay. Just pick your course accordingly and ease off in a controlled manner! 7) Get comfortable heaving to in a breeze- sometimes when its getting unnerving, just resting hove too for a minute or two gives everyone a change to collect themselves. Anyway, enough of this distraction from work and the overly long missive it resulted in- Jerry, thanks designing such a great sailor's sailboat- she's put a lot of smiles on our faces! Alex On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 9:56 AM <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I have knocked down my M15, and it stands right back up on it's own quickly, especially if you release the mainsheet. The boat cannot be capsized by strong winds- once the sails are in the water they're out of the wind and the boat won't go over any further. When this happened with my friend and I onboard in the California Delta, it wasn't really a scary experience, the boat still felt in control and we were having a fun time, but quickly reduced sail afterwards.
Going downwind you can sail on the main alone, but upwind you must always keep it balanced. I highly recommend a smaller size heavy weather jib plus a deep 2nd or 3rd reef point if you plan to regularly sail in heavy winds. My M15 can still go to windward on the windiest days in San Francisco bay using this configuration. Unfortunately, I have not found a way to easily change headsails single handedly, but with someone at the tiller to sail slightly upwind on the main alone, going forward is okay.
Singlehanded reefing is pretty relaxing, and can be done slowly and carefully even in the strongest wind once you are hove to, with the reefing line side of the boom facing upwind. I really recommend a WaveFront Marine tiller clutch to make this easier. Also, I don't recommend running lines to the cockpit if your boat doesn't have it already. It's easiest and safest to stand in the companionway for reefing, and you can easily reach halyards on the mast this way.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2022 11:06:00 PM Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do
John and I had a lovely sail back in the day with my M15. That is clearly the issue with the M15 is that with no backstay luffing the main bags the jib causing excessive heeling. In stiff winds cranking down on the vang and out haul, and making the jib tight as a drum is needed for that boat. Had I kept my M15 I would have gone with a furling jib because there is no other way to reduce the headsail on that boat. Also, sailing on main alone does not work well at all on an M15. Can’t go to windward. I know, I tried. The balance is terrible and there is excessive weather helm. You gotta have a jib. My SCAMP actually does quite well in a blow, because the luff the main method rather than pinch up into the wind works really well. That is Storer’s preferred method, and I have played with that with the SCAMP where I live, and it is really great. In a gust I just let out the main, and it is really controlled. For my sailing that is an advantage. In equal winds I find the SCAMP actually easier to sail. Now, the M15 is easier to reef for me, because I could heave to so easily. The SCAMP requires a park maneuver, and a quick lowering of the sail into the lazy jacks and then a reefing. Works but the M15 was easier in that regard. The M15 is super safe though. The excessive heel is no fun, but the boat is so stiff it will just stiffen right up. Even if by some chance you dumped it, the wind would dump and she would sit right back up I should think. I never did that.
Daniel
On Sep 7, 2022, at 10:45 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Yes, agreed Rusty, I didn't go into that detail. By 'losing power' I meant that making forward progress would be reduced. The heeling power is increased by the rounding/fullness of the jib, while the driving power is reduced. So on an M15 rounding up would be better than sheeting out. Except in an emergency where letting go the mainsheet prevents something more catastrophic.
On my M17 I have either option, I can round up and luff both sails in a gust, or I can reduce power on the main by sheeting out and/or lowering the traveler and still have the jib providing driving power.
cheers, John
On 9/7/22 21:51, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats wrote: John, one clarification on your comments as they pertain to the M15 and fractional rigs. Slackening the sheet does also slacken the forestay. But this gives more fullness to the jib, increasing not decreasing its power, and thus causing more heeling action. The sails should be as flat as possible in strong winds. Lots of tension on the downhaul/cunningham, outhaul, and maintaining sheet tension as much as possible by heading up, not sheeting out. Search for Dave Scobie’s excellent article on strong wind sailing as it pertains to M15’s and fractional rigs. Fair winds! www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Sep 7, 2022, at 4:36 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
For a few thoughts that are not specific to M15 but more in general...
On 9/7/22 12:14, Ernst van Gulijk wrote: Hello all, ... Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only.
Great stuff to practice. Especially sail-out, sail-in. I don't care how many fast reaches someone can do out in the middle of a lake, if they motor to get there and motor back they're missing a lot of sailing skill development (that they might really want when their motor dies out there...).
...
All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge. Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting).
First of all, "when in doubt, let it out" applies to the main sheet in terms of basic safety. With possible exceptions when you are about to go on the rocks or similar, and losing way is more dangerous than other consequences, letting the sheet out is a better strategy than getting knocked down.
The issue with easing the main sheet on an M15 is that you have no backstay, so forestay tension and thus jib luff tension depends somewhat on main sheet tension. If you slack the main sheet, your forestay and thus jib luff will slack some also, so you will lose power in the jib as well. Which might be a good thing, for the moment, in a brief strong gust. But if you are trying to go to windward it's a problem. I got to experience this once on Daniel Rich's M15.
1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected?
If it's a brief passing squall or gust of a few moments, you can just luff along for a bit, as long as you are not in other danger from losing way.
As you learn to read the water & wind/sky at your location(s), you may be able to see the wind picking up significantly from a ways across the lake, more than you can yet. And then have a few moments to reef proactively.
2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions?
Yes, that's a good learning strategy. Heave to in order to reef - then you get to practice both. Assuming you have enough room to drift downwind for a few moments without going aground, that is. Which suggests a strategy of not sailing too close to a lee shore when you might need to heave to. Give yourself plenty of space.
It's possible to reef without heaving to once you've got it down and don't have to think it through. Head to wind, and quick get the reef in before you fall off too far. But until then, make it easier, heave to first. The gustier and choppier the conditions, the less time you will have to put in the reef if you are not hove to, the wind and waves will push you away from head to wind quicker. Also your reefing setup (lines cleats etc.) can make it easier, or harder, to put in a reef quickly.
3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)?
M15 sailors better to answer that...my guess would be if that kept you from being overpowered, yes. Sail on the main until the squall passes and then raise the jib again. The M17 does not sail so great on main alone, being a masthead rig and more jib-driven. But it does sail still. How about the M15?
4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore.
I think the info has been (from Dave S, Jerry, maybe others as well) that the M-boat hulls are optimal performers at about 15 degrees of heel. Meaning, most speed, least wetted surface.
But it won't capsize just from going beyond that - you'd have to get knocked down close to horizontal and have other things go wrong (sail digging into water, taking on lots of water, etc.) to actually capsize. You can heel quite a bit more and keep on sailing. It just takes some getting used to. Let her heel more than you're comfortable with, and see where she does 'stiffen up' (stops heeling more). As the heel increases, the sails catch less wind and the keel weight counters the heel more, which results in the 'stiffening up' at some point. You can always slack the mainsheet if it gets too scary, back off, try again. I still work on this...from sailing mostly un-ballasted dinghies, I have a reflex to not let a boat heel so much.
The video of David G that Rusty posted is great, you can see the gusts coming on the water and then heeling him over. He lets it go quite a ways before needing to round up. So you can get an idea of how far over the boat can heel and keep sailing, and/or recover easily. You can also see how when he does slack the mainsheet, the forestay/jib luff loses some tension.
Keep sailing! cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks for all these tips -- what a resource this list is! After a long day getting beat up and my confidence shaken to I've found one of the best things I can do to get back out there is to spend a day in 15+ breezes on a sunfish, just ripping it up. Then coming back to the M17 feels like resting on a couch! On Thu, Sep 8, 2022, 5:41 PM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
We sail on a rather windy mountain lake prone to hard gusts and rapid wind shifts, and I'll second all that's been said here. In some ways the M15 is the best of both worlds- she is super responsive to helm and sail trim like a light dingy, but with the solidity of a larger boat once she's pushed over a bit. Her responsiveness means she can be initially scary in a breeze to folks not used to her- but its also what makes her a fun and absorbing boat to sail (let the others bob about in heavier boats around with too little sail up trying not to spill their drinks...). I will say that when it is gusty and shifty, an hour or twos sailing can be plenty, and that upwind in a chop she can be a wet boat (wet feet too)- we're lucky to have a quiet dock we can retreat to when wind and waves and constant attention and splashes in the face are enough. So specific thoughts- most just consolidating what others already said: 1) Sail trim is huge- tighten the halyards, down haul, boom vang (if you don't have one, get one) and especially, out-haul to flatten sails as the wind picks up. Rig an out-haul with some purchase that can be adjusted while sailing and use it (tighter as wind is up and headed upwind- loosen as wind drops and/or off the wind). Learning how to tweak sail shape makes a huge difference but is often ignored by casual sailors 2) With flat sails, the M15 does a great job of feathering (depowering when going upwind by sailing just a little closer to the wind than where you would in a lesser breeeze). Set the slot between the jib (sheeted pretty tight) and main so the front third of the main is backwinded but the sheet is still tight, let the windward telltale on the jib lift a bit (if you don't have jib telltales, get em and learn to use em- one of the cheapest big improvements you can make!)- there's a magic spot where the forces shift from pushing you over and tugging on the helm to surging you forward, the bow biting into the waves, you making microadjustments to keep in the sweet spot- those are the moments I dream of when bent over this computer mid-week- 3) Learn to read the water and anticipate puffs and the direction they'll come from- anticipate lifts and headers and steer accordingly, and depower in anticipation of puffs, knowing (at least on our lake) they tend to hit hardest right off then ease off a touch. Use your body weight- not just to flatten the boat when needed (but not too early- the M15 sails best at a moderate angle of heel where wetted area and waterline beam are reduced), but also to move your weight forward and lift that fat stern. With 2 to 3 aboard, as the wind rises she sails best with one person in the standing in companionway (and not just cause less water fills the cockpit from the drain then) 4) Reef when it gets uncomfortable (if the tiller is really fighting you, and you have to pull it hard to windward to sail straight, you'll probably sail faster and easilier with a reef in- look aft and you can see all that drag/turbulence on the rudder is slowing you down). Also read up on adjusting the mast rake for a well balanced helm- a few inches of rake can really change how the boat feels- and when set right, the boat will round right up and depower if you drop the helm but not fight you unnecessarily. 5) Pay attention to all the above about sail trim when you reef too- and make sure the after reefing line is pulling from an angle that pulls the reef cringe aft as well as down, so that you can get the foot of the main tight tight. Baggy sails are not your friend when it blows. 6) My wife loves "Baby jib", an 85% heavy weather jib- not only does it reduce sail area, it reduces the flapping mayhem and amount of muscle needed sheeting the jib when it is blowing, really reducing her fear of tweaking a bad shoulder. A second reef is also great even if you don't use it a lot- when things are rollicking with a reef in you have the security of knowing you can always calm things down- so if you don't have a second reef now and face high winds often, start dreaming about a new set of sails (old sails also don't hold their shape as well, making them baggy even when tightened- and baggy sails aren't your friend). I like the balance of the boat best with the regular jib (Bubba jib now)- but if hanking on baby jib instead means my wife is smiling as we round the point into a lake full of whitecaps, I'm all for it! 7) I find the M15 a joy the sail upwind in a blow- and well behaved on a beam reach or below- but close reaching in gusty/shifty winds can feel unnerving due to the way the sails fill quickly (and the mast moves forward) without a backstay. Just pick your course accordingly and ease off in a controlled manner! 7) Get comfortable heaving to in a breeze- sometimes when its getting unnerving, just resting hove too for a minute or two gives everyone a change to collect themselves. Anyway, enough of this distraction from work and the overly long missive it resulted in- Jerry, thanks designing such a great sailor's sailboat- she's put a lot of smiles on our faces!
Alex
On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 9:56 AM <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I have knocked down my M15, and it stands right back up on it's own quickly, especially if you release the mainsheet. The boat cannot be capsized by strong winds- once the sails are in the water they're out of the wind and the boat won't go over any further. When this happened with my friend and I onboard in the California Delta, it wasn't really a scary experience, the boat still felt in control and we were having a fun time, but quickly reduced sail afterwards.
Going downwind you can sail on the main alone, but upwind you must always keep it balanced. I highly recommend a smaller size heavy weather jib plus a deep 2nd or 3rd reef point if you plan to regularly sail in heavy winds. My M15 can still go to windward on the windiest days in San Francisco bay using this configuration. Unfortunately, I have not found a way to easily change headsails single handedly, but with someone at the tiller to sail slightly upwind on the main alone, going forward is okay.
Singlehanded reefing is pretty relaxing, and can be done slowly and carefully even in the strongest wind once you are hove to, with the reefing line side of the boom facing upwind. I really recommend a WaveFront Marine tiller clutch to make this easier. Also, I don't recommend running lines to the cockpit if your boat doesn't have it already. It's easiest and safest to stand in the companionway for reefing, and you can easily reach halyards on the mast this way.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2022 11:06:00 PM Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do
John and I had a lovely sail back in the day with my M15. That is clearly the issue with the M15 is that with no backstay luffing the main bags the jib causing excessive heeling. In stiff winds cranking down on the vang and out haul, and making the jib tight as a drum is needed for that boat. Had I kept my M15 I would have gone with a furling jib because there is no other way to reduce the headsail on that boat. Also, sailing on main alone does not work well at all on an M15. Can’t go to windward. I know, I tried. The balance is terrible and there is excessive weather helm. You gotta have a jib. My SCAMP actually does quite well in a blow, because the luff the main method rather than pinch up into the wind works really well. That is Storer’s preferred method, and I have played with that with the SCAMP where I live, and it is really great. In a gust I just let out the main, and it is really controlled. For my sailing that is an advantage. In equal winds I find the SCAMP actually easier to sail. Now, the M15 is easier to reef for me, because I could heave to so easily. The SCAMP requires a park maneuver, and a quick lowering of the sail into the lazy jacks and then a reefing. Works but the M15 was easier in that regard. The M15 is super safe though. The excessive heel is no fun, but the boat is so stiff it will just stiffen right up. Even if by some chance you dumped it, the wind would dump and she would sit right back up I should think. I never did that.
Daniel
On Sep 7, 2022, at 10:45 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Yes, agreed Rusty, I didn't go into that detail. By 'losing power' I meant that making forward progress would be reduced. The heeling power is increased by the rounding/fullness of the jib, while the driving power is reduced. So on an M15 rounding up would be better than sheeting out. Except in an emergency where letting go the mainsheet prevents something more catastrophic.
On my M17 I have either option, I can round up and luff both sails in a gust, or I can reduce power on the main by sheeting out and/or lowering the traveler and still have the jib providing driving power.
cheers, John
On 9/7/22 21:51, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats wrote: John, one clarification on your comments as they pertain to the M15 and fractional rigs. Slackening the sheet does also slacken the forestay. But this gives more fullness to the jib, increasing not decreasing its power, and thus causing more heeling action. The sails should be as flat as possible in strong winds. Lots of tension on the downhaul/cunningham, outhaul, and maintaining sheet tension as much as possible by heading up, not sheeting out. Search for Dave Scobie’s excellent article on strong wind sailing as it pertains to M15’s and fractional rigs. Fair winds! www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Sep 7, 2022, at 4:36 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
For a few thoughts that are not specific to M15 but more in general...
On 9/7/22 12:14, Ernst van Gulijk wrote: Hello all, ... Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only.
Great stuff to practice. Especially sail-out, sail-in. I don't care how many fast reaches someone can do out in the middle of a lake, if they motor to get there and motor back they're missing a lot of sailing skill development (that they might really want when their motor dies out there...).
...
All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge. Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting).
First of all, "when in doubt, let it out" applies to the main sheet in terms of basic safety. With possible exceptions when you are about to go on the rocks or similar, and losing way is more dangerous than other consequences, letting the sheet out is a better strategy than getting knocked down.
The issue with easing the main sheet on an M15 is that you have no backstay, so forestay tension and thus jib luff tension depends somewhat on main sheet tension. If you slack the main sheet, your forestay and thus jib luff will slack some also, so you will lose power in the jib as well. Which might be a good thing, for the moment, in a brief strong gust. But if you are trying to go to windward it's a problem. I got to experience this once on Daniel Rich's M15.
1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected?
If it's a brief passing squall or gust of a few moments, you can just luff along for a bit, as long as you are not in other danger from losing way.
As you learn to read the water & wind/sky at your location(s), you may be able to see the wind picking up significantly from a ways across the lake, more than you can yet. And then have a few moments to reef proactively.
2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions?
Yes, that's a good learning strategy. Heave to in order to reef - then you get to practice both. Assuming you have enough room to drift downwind for a few moments without going aground, that is. Which suggests a strategy of not sailing too close to a lee shore when you might need to heave to. Give yourself plenty of space.
It's possible to reef without heaving to once you've got it down and don't have to think it through. Head to wind, and quick get the reef in before you fall off too far. But until then, make it easier, heave to first. The gustier and choppier the conditions, the less time you will have to put in the reef if you are not hove to, the wind and waves will push you away from head to wind quicker. Also your reefing setup (lines cleats etc.) can make it easier, or harder, to put in a reef quickly.
3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)?
M15 sailors better to answer that...my guess would be if that kept you from being overpowered, yes. Sail on the main until the squall passes and then raise the jib again. The M17 does not sail so great on main alone, being a masthead rig and more jib-driven. But it does sail still. How about the M15?
4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore.
I think the info has been (from Dave S, Jerry, maybe others as well) that the M-boat hulls are optimal performers at about 15 degrees of heel. Meaning, most speed, least wetted surface.
But it won't capsize just from going beyond that - you'd have to get knocked down close to horizontal and have other things go wrong (sail digging into water, taking on lots of water, etc.) to actually capsize. You can heel quite a bit more and keep on sailing. It just takes some getting used to. Let her heel more than you're comfortable with, and see where she does 'stiffen up' (stops heeling more). As the heel increases, the sails catch less wind and the keel weight counters the heel more, which results in the 'stiffening up' at some point. You can always slack the mainsheet if it gets too scary, back off, try again. I still work on this...from sailing mostly un-ballasted dinghies, I have a reflex to not let a boat heel so much.
The video of David G that Rusty posted is great, you can see the gusts coming on the water and then heeling him over. He lets it go quite a ways before needing to round up. So you can get an idea of how far over the boat can heel and keep sailing, and/or recover easily. You can also see how when he does slack the mainsheet, the forestay/jib luff loses some tension.
Keep sailing! cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Great contrast there...Sunfish are a blast. A friend had a Minifish for a while that I got to sail a bunch. Try similar contrast in an El Toro - I have a refurbished old wooden one - and then an M17 feels like a Beneteau 31 (OK, I've never been on a Beneteau of any size, but like something much bigger and heavier but still with performance... :-). cheers, John On 9/8/22 16:00, Jennifer Wood wrote:
Thanks for all these tips -- what a resource this list is!
After a long day getting beat up and my confidence shaken to I've found one of the best things I can do to get back out there is to spend a day in 15+ breezes on a sunfish, just ripping it up.
Then coming back to the M17 feels like resting on a couch!
On Thu, Sep 8, 2022, 5:41 PM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Sounds like similar conditions to the lakes I've mostly sailed on... Just to add, you'll start to get used to how the gusts come and the wind direction changes at the start of a gust, after some time just paying attention on 'your' lake. Also how the prevailing winds bend with shape of lake, surrounding terrain, etc. and how close to shore you can go before land & trees start to affect the wind. Same here as for Alex's location, the first portion of the gust is normally strongest and then it drops a bit, holds for some amount of time, and then drops back to 'not a gust' (all rather relative, but it makes sense once you sail in it enough). Also the first part of gusts here normally comes more from ahead, meaning, more on the bow, if you're already close-hauled. It's as if you suddenly turned upwind a bit and everything luffs - but you didn't turn at all, just the leading edge of the gust has a different direction. I look forward to someday in future sailing my M17 somewhere I don't have to trim anything for, say, a whole five minutes! So ditto the part about a couple hours in blustery choppy conditions is plenty, especially when one is still getting used to it. If you're lucky, back to your mooring/slip is not always upwind..for me it is, in normal prevailing winds. In that case, factor that in to your plan for each outing...it will take a spell of tacking and close-hauled sailing to get back 'home'. cheers, John On 9/8/22 15:40, Alex Conley wrote:
We sail on a rather windy mountain lake prone to hard gusts and rapid wind shifts, and I'll second all that's been said here. In some ways the M15 is the best of both worlds- she is super responsive to helm and sail trim like a light dingy, but with the solidity of a larger boat once she's pushed over a bit. Her responsiveness means she can be initially scary in a breeze to folks not used to her- but its also what makes her a fun and absorbing boat to sail (let the others bob about in heavier boats around with too little sail up trying not to spill their drinks...). I will say that when it is gusty and shifty, an hour or twos sailing can be plenty, and that upwind in a chop she can be a wet boat (wet feet too)- we're lucky to have a quiet dock we can retreat to when wind and waves and constant attention and splashes in the face are enough. So specific thoughts- most just consolidating what others already said: 1) Sail trim is huge- tighten the halyards, down haul, boom vang (if you don't have one, get one) and especially, out-haul to flatten sails as the wind picks up. Rig an out-haul with some purchase that can be adjusted while sailing and use it (tighter as wind is up and headed upwind- loosen as wind drops and/or off the wind). Learning how to tweak sail shape makes a huge difference but is often ignored by casual sailors 2) With flat sails, the M15 does a great job of feathering (depowering when going upwind by sailing just a little closer to the wind than where you would in a lesser breeeze). Set the slot between the jib (sheeted pretty tight) and main so the front third of the main is backwinded but the sheet is still tight, let the windward telltale on the jib lift a bit (if you don't have jib telltales, get em and learn to use em- one of the cheapest big improvements you can make!)- there's a magic spot where the forces shift from pushing you over and tugging on the helm to surging you forward, the bow biting into the waves, you making microadjustments to keep in the sweet spot- those are the moments I dream of when bent over this computer mid-week- 3) Learn to read the water and anticipate puffs and the direction they'll come from- anticipate lifts and headers and steer accordingly, and depower in anticipation of puffs, knowing (at least on our lake) they tend to hit hardest right off then ease off a touch. Use your body weight- not just to flatten the boat when needed (but not too early- the M15 sails best at a moderate angle of heel where wetted area and waterline beam are reduced), but also to move your weight forward and lift that fat stern. With 2 to 3 aboard, as the wind rises she sails best with one person in the standing in companionway (and not just cause less water fills the cockpit from the drain then) 4) Reef when it gets uncomfortable (if the tiller is really fighting you, and you have to pull it hard to windward to sail straight, you'll probably sail faster and easilier with a reef in- look aft and you can see all that drag/turbulence on the rudder is slowing you down). Also read up on adjusting the mast rake for a well balanced helm- a few inches of rake can really change how the boat feels- and when set right, the boat will round right up and depower if you drop the helm but not fight you unnecessarily. 5) Pay attention to all the above about sail trim when you reef too- and make sure the after reefing line is pulling from an angle that pulls the reef cringe aft as well as down, so that you can get the foot of the main tight tight. Baggy sails are not your friend when it blows. 6) My wife loves "Baby jib", an 85% heavy weather jib- not only does it reduce sail area, it reduces the flapping mayhem and amount of muscle needed sheeting the jib when it is blowing, really reducing her fear of tweaking a bad shoulder. A second reef is also great even if you don't use it a lot- when things are rollicking with a reef in you have the security of knowing you can always calm things down- so if you don't have a second reef now and face high winds often, start dreaming about a new set of sails (old sails also don't hold their shape as well, making them baggy even when tightened- and baggy sails aren't your friend). I like the balance of the boat best with the regular jib (Bubba jib now)- but if hanking on baby jib instead means my wife is smiling as we round the point into a lake full of whitecaps, I'm all for it! 7) I find the M15 a joy the sail upwind in a blow- and well behaved on a beam reach or below- but close reaching in gusty/shifty winds can feel unnerving due to the way the sails fill quickly (and the mast moves forward) without a backstay. Just pick your course accordingly and ease off in a controlled manner! 7) Get comfortable heaving to in a breeze- sometimes when its getting unnerving, just resting hove too for a minute or two gives everyone a change to collect themselves. Anyway, enough of this distraction from work and the overly long missive it resulted in- Jerry, thanks designing such a great sailor's sailboat- she's put a lot of smiles on our faces!
Alex
On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 9:56 AM <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I have knocked down my M15, and it stands right back up on it's own quickly, especially if you release the mainsheet. The boat cannot be capsized by strong winds- once the sails are in the water they're out of the wind and the boat won't go over any further. When this happened with my friend and I onboard in the California Delta, it wasn't really a scary experience, the boat still felt in control and we were having a fun time, but quickly reduced sail afterwards.
Going downwind you can sail on the main alone, but upwind you must always keep it balanced. I highly recommend a smaller size heavy weather jib plus a deep 2nd or 3rd reef point if you plan to regularly sail in heavy winds. My M15 can still go to windward on the windiest days in San Francisco bay using this configuration. Unfortunately, I have not found a way to easily change headsails single handedly, but with someone at the tiller to sail slightly upwind on the main alone, going forward is okay.
Singlehanded reefing is pretty relaxing, and can be done slowly and carefully even in the strongest wind once you are hove to, with the reefing line side of the boom facing upwind. I really recommend a WaveFront Marine tiller clutch to make this easier. Also, I don't recommend running lines to the cockpit if your boat doesn't have it already. It's easiest and safest to stand in the companionway for reefing, and you can easily reach halyards on the mast this way.
Sincerely, Tyler
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Ok skippers The outhaul is crucial to trim. Here is how I rigged the SV Pelican. Thank for the great article Alex Capt Jim SV Pelican M15 Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2022 3:40:25 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do We sail on a rather windy mountain lake prone to hard gusts and rapid wind shifts, and I'll second all that's been said here. In some ways the M15 is the best of both worlds- she is super responsive to helm and sail trim like a light dingy, but with the solidity of a larger boat once she's pushed over a bit. Her responsiveness means she can be initially scary in a breeze to folks not used to her- but its also what makes her a fun and absorbing boat to sail (let the others bob about in heavier boats around with too little sail up trying not to spill their drinks...). I will say that when it is gusty and shifty, an hour or twos sailing can be plenty, and that upwind in a chop she can be a wet boat (wet feet too)- we're lucky to have a quiet dock we can retreat to when wind and waves and constant attention and splashes in the face are enough. So specific thoughts- most just consolidating what others already said: 1) Sail trim is huge- tighten the halyards, down haul, boom vang (if you don't have one, get one) and especially, out-haul to flatten sails as the wind picks up. Rig an out-haul with some purchase that can be adjusted while sailing and use it (tighter as wind is up and headed upwind- loosen as wind drops and/or off the wind). Learning how to tweak sail shape makes a huge difference but is often ignored by casual sailors 2) With flat sails, the M15 does a great job of feathering (depowering when going upwind by sailing just a little closer to the wind than where you would in a lesser breeeze). Set the slot between the jib (sheeted pretty tight) and main so the front third of the main is backwinded but the sheet is still tight, let the windward telltale on the jib lift a bit (if you don't have jib telltales, get em and learn to use em- one of the cheapest big improvements you can make!)- there's a magic spot where the forces shift from pushing you over and tugging on the helm to surging you forward, the bow biting into the waves, you making microadjustments to keep in the sweet spot- those are the moments I dream of when bent over this computer mid-week- 3) Learn to read the water and anticipate puffs and the direction they'll come from- anticipate lifts and headers and steer accordingly, and depower in anticipation of puffs, knowing (at least on our lake) they tend to hit hardest right off then ease off a touch. Use your body weight- not just to flatten the boat when needed (but not too early- the M15 sails best at a moderate angle of heel where wetted area and waterline beam are reduced), but also to move your weight forward and lift that fat stern. With 2 to 3 aboard, as the wind rises she sails best with one person in the standing in companionway (and not just cause less water fills the cockpit from the drain then) 4) Reef when it gets uncomfortable (if the tiller is really fighting you, and you have to pull it hard to windward to sail straight, you'll probably sail faster and easilier with a reef in- look aft and you can see all that drag/turbulence on the rudder is slowing you down). Also read up on adjusting the mast rake for a well balanced helm- a few inches of rake can really change how the boat feels- and when set right, the boat will round right up and depower if you drop the helm but not fight you unnecessarily. 5) Pay attention to all the above about sail trim when you reef too- and make sure the after reefing line is pulling from an angle that pulls the reef cringe aft as well as down, so that you can get the foot of the main tight tight. Baggy sails are not your friend when it blows. 6) My wife loves "Baby jib", an 85% heavy weather jib- not only does it reduce sail area, it reduces the flapping mayhem and amount of muscle needed sheeting the jib when it is blowing, really reducing her fear of tweaking a bad shoulder. A second reef is also great even if you don't use it a lot- when things are rollicking with a reef in you have the security of knowing you can always calm things down- so if you don't have a second reef now and face high winds often, start dreaming about a new set of sails (old sails also don't hold their shape as well, making them baggy even when tightened- and baggy sails aren't your friend). I like the balance of the boat best with the regular jib (Bubba jib now)- but if hanking on baby jib instead means my wife is smiling as we round the point into a lake full of whitecaps, I'm all for it! 7) I find the M15 a joy the sail upwind in a blow- and well behaved on a beam reach or below- but close reaching in gusty/shifty winds can feel unnerving due to the way the sails fill quickly (and the mast moves forward) without a backstay. Just pick your course accordingly and ease off in a controlled manner! 7) Get comfortable heaving to in a breeze- sometimes when its getting unnerving, just resting hove too for a minute or two gives everyone a change to collect themselves. Anyway, enough of this distraction from work and the overly long missive it resulted in- Jerry, thanks designing such a great sailor's sailboat- she's put a lot of smiles on our faces! Alex On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 9:56 AM <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I have knocked down my M15, and it stands right back up on it's own quickly, especially if you release the mainsheet. The boat cannot be capsized by strong winds- once the sails are in the water they're out of the wind and the boat won't go over any further. When this happened with my friend and I onboard in the California Delta, it wasn't really a scary experience, the boat still felt in control and we were having a fun time, but quickly reduced sail afterwards.
Going downwind you can sail on the main alone, but upwind you must always keep it balanced. I highly recommend a smaller size heavy weather jib plus a deep 2nd or 3rd reef point if you plan to regularly sail in heavy winds. My M15 can still go to windward on the windiest days in San Francisco bay using this configuration. Unfortunately, I have not found a way to easily change headsails single handedly, but with someone at the tiller to sail slightly upwind on the main alone, going forward is okay.
Singlehanded reefing is pretty relaxing, and can be done slowly and carefully even in the strongest wind once you are hove to, with the reefing line side of the boom facing upwind. I really recommend a WaveFront Marine tiller clutch to make this easier. Also, I don't recommend running lines to the cockpit if your boat doesn't have it already. It's easiest and safest to stand in the companionway for reefing, and you can easily reach halyards on the mast this way.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2022 11:06:00 PM Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do
John and I had a lovely sail back in the day with my M15. That is clearly the issue with the M15 is that with no backstay luffing the main bags the jib causing excessive heeling. In stiff winds cranking down on the vang and out haul, and making the jib tight as a drum is needed for that boat. Had I kept my M15 I would have gone with a furling jib because there is no other way to reduce the headsail on that boat. Also, sailing on main alone does not work well at all on an M15. Can’t go to windward. I know, I tried. The balance is terrible and there is excessive weather helm. You gotta have a jib. My SCAMP actually does quite well in a blow, because the luff the main method rather than pinch up into the wind works really well. That is Storer’s preferred method, and I have played with that with the SCAMP where I live, and it is really great. In a gust I just let out the main, and it is really controlled. For my sailing that is an advantage. In equal winds I find the SCAMP actually easier to sail. Now, the M15 is easier to reef for me, because I could heave to so easily. The SCAMP requires a park maneuver, and a quick lowering of the sail into the lazy jacks and then a reefing. Works but the M15 was easier in that regard. The M15 is super safe though. The excessive heel is no fun, but the boat is so stiff it will just stiffen right up. Even if by some chance you dumped it, the wind would dump and she would sit right back up I should think. I never did that.
Daniel
On Sep 7, 2022, at 10:45 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Yes, agreed Rusty, I didn't go into that detail. By 'losing power' I meant that making forward progress would be reduced. The heeling power is increased by the rounding/fullness of the jib, while the driving power is reduced. So on an M15 rounding up would be better than sheeting out. Except in an emergency where letting go the mainsheet prevents something more catastrophic.
On my M17 I have either option, I can round up and luff both sails in a gust, or I can reduce power on the main by sheeting out and/or lowering the traveler and still have the jib providing driving power.
cheers, John
On 9/7/22 21:51, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats wrote: John, one clarification on your comments as they pertain to the M15 and fractional rigs. Slackening the sheet does also slacken the forestay. But this gives more fullness to the jib, increasing not decreasing its power, and thus causing more heeling action. The sails should be as flat as possible in strong winds. Lots of tension on the downhaul/cunningham, outhaul, and maintaining sheet tension as much as possible by heading up, not sheeting out. Search for Dave Scobie’s excellent article on strong wind sailing as it pertains to M15’s and fractional rigs. Fair winds! www.rustyknorr.weebly.com<http://www.rustyknorr.weebly.com>
On Sep 7, 2022, at 4:36 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
For a few thoughts that are not specific to M15 but more in general...
On 9/7/22 12:14, Ernst van Gulijk wrote: Hello all, ... Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only.
Great stuff to practice. Especially sail-out, sail-in. I don't care how many fast reaches someone can do out in the middle of a lake, if they motor to get there and motor back they're missing a lot of sailing skill development (that they might really want when their motor dies out there...).
...
All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge. Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting).
First of all, "when in doubt, let it out" applies to the main sheet in terms of basic safety. With possible exceptions when you are about to go on the rocks or similar, and losing way is more dangerous than other consequences, letting the sheet out is a better strategy than getting knocked down.
The issue with easing the main sheet on an M15 is that you have no backstay, so forestay tension and thus jib luff tension depends somewhat on main sheet tension. If you slack the main sheet, your forestay and thus jib luff will slack some also, so you will lose power in the jib as well. Which might be a good thing, for the moment, in a brief strong gust. But if you are trying to go to windward it's a problem. I got to experience this once on Daniel Rich's M15.
1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected?
If it's a brief passing squall or gust of a few moments, you can just luff along for a bit, as long as you are not in other danger from losing way.
As you learn to read the water & wind/sky at your location(s), you may be able to see the wind picking up significantly from a ways across the lake, more than you can yet. And then have a few moments to reef proactively.
2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions?
Yes, that's a good learning strategy. Heave to in order to reef - then you get to practice both. Assuming you have enough room to drift downwind for a few moments without going aground, that is. Which suggests a strategy of not sailing too close to a lee shore when you might need to heave to. Give yourself plenty of space.
It's possible to reef without heaving to once you've got it down and don't have to think it through. Head to wind, and quick get the reef in before you fall off too far. But until then, make it easier, heave to first. The gustier and choppier the conditions, the less time you will have to put in the reef if you are not hove to, the wind and waves will push you away from head to wind quicker. Also your reefing setup (lines cleats etc.) can make it easier, or harder, to put in a reef quickly.
3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)?
M15 sailors better to answer that...my guess would be if that kept you from being overpowered, yes. Sail on the main until the squall passes and then raise the jib again. The M17 does not sail so great on main alone, being a masthead rig and more jib-driven. But it does sail still. How about the M15?
4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore.
I think the info has been (from Dave S, Jerry, maybe others as well) that the M-boat hulls are optimal performers at about 15 degrees of heel. Meaning, most speed, least wetted surface.
But it won't capsize just from going beyond that - you'd have to get knocked down close to horizontal and have other things go wrong (sail digging into water, taking on lots of water, etc.) to actually capsize. You can heel quite a bit more and keep on sailing. It just takes some getting used to. Let her heel more than you're comfortable with, and see where she does 'stiffen up' (stops heeling more). As the heel increases, the sails catch less wind and the keel weight counters the heel more, which results in the 'stiffening up' at some point. You can always slack the mainsheet if it gets too scary, back off, try again. I still work on this...from sailing mostly un-ballasted dinghies, I have a reflex to not let a boat heel so much.
The video of David G that Rusty posted is great, you can see the gusts coming on the water and then heeling him over. He lets it go quite a ways before needing to round up. So you can get an idea of how far over the boat can heel and keep sailing, and/or recover easily. You can also see how when he does slack the mainsheet, the forestay/jib luff loses some tension.
Keep sailing! cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks Alex for the thoughtful article.....but is a vang really necessary with mid boom sheeting? On Thu, Sep 15, 2022, 9:53 AM Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:
Ok skippers The outhaul is crucial to trim. Here is how I rigged the SV Pelican.
Thank for the great article Alex
Capt Jim SV Pelican M15
Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2022 3:40:25 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do
We sail on a rather windy mountain lake prone to hard gusts and rapid wind shifts, and I'll second all that's been said here. In some ways the M15 is the best of both worlds- she is super responsive to helm and sail trim like a light dingy, but with the solidity of a larger boat once she's pushed over a bit. Her responsiveness means she can be initially scary in a breeze to folks not used to her- but its also what makes her a fun and absorbing boat to sail (let the others bob about in heavier boats around with too little sail up trying not to spill their drinks...). I will say that when it is gusty and shifty, an hour or twos sailing can be plenty, and that upwind in a chop she can be a wet boat (wet feet too)- we're lucky to have a quiet dock we can retreat to when wind and waves and constant attention and splashes in the face are enough. So specific thoughts- most just consolidating what others already said: 1) Sail trim is huge- tighten the halyards, down haul, boom vang (if you don't have one, get one) and especially, out-haul to flatten sails as the wind picks up. Rig an out-haul with some purchase that can be adjusted while sailing and use it (tighter as wind is up and headed upwind- loosen as wind drops and/or off the wind). Learning how to tweak sail shape makes a huge difference but is often ignored by casual sailors 2) With flat sails, the M15 does a great job of feathering (depowering when going upwind by sailing just a little closer to the wind than where you would in a lesser breeeze). Set the slot between the jib (sheeted pretty tight) and main so the front third of the main is backwinded but the sheet is still tight, let the windward telltale on the jib lift a bit (if you don't have jib telltales, get em and learn to use em- one of the cheapest big improvements you can make!)- there's a magic spot where the forces shift from pushing you over and tugging on the helm to surging you forward, the bow biting into the waves, you making microadjustments to keep in the sweet spot- those are the moments I dream of when bent over this computer mid-week- 3) Learn to read the water and anticipate puffs and the direction they'll come from- anticipate lifts and headers and steer accordingly, and depower in anticipation of puffs, knowing (at least on our lake) they tend to hit hardest right off then ease off a touch. Use your body weight- not just to flatten the boat when needed (but not too early- the M15 sails best at a moderate angle of heel where wetted area and waterline beam are reduced), but also to move your weight forward and lift that fat stern. With 2 to 3 aboard, as the wind rises she sails best with one person in the standing in companionway (and not just cause less water fills the cockpit from the drain then) 4) Reef when it gets uncomfortable (if the tiller is really fighting you, and you have to pull it hard to windward to sail straight, you'll probably sail faster and easilier with a reef in- look aft and you can see all that drag/turbulence on the rudder is slowing you down). Also read up on adjusting the mast rake for a well balanced helm- a few inches of rake can really change how the boat feels- and when set right, the boat will round right up and depower if you drop the helm but not fight you unnecessarily. 5) Pay attention to all the above about sail trim when you reef too- and make sure the after reefing line is pulling from an angle that pulls the reef cringe aft as well as down, so that you can get the foot of the main tight tight. Baggy sails are not your friend when it blows. 6) My wife loves "Baby jib", an 85% heavy weather jib- not only does it reduce sail area, it reduces the flapping mayhem and amount of muscle needed sheeting the jib when it is blowing, really reducing her fear of tweaking a bad shoulder. A second reef is also great even if you don't use it a lot- when things are rollicking with a reef in you have the security of knowing you can always calm things down- so if you don't have a second reef now and face high winds often, start dreaming about a new set of sails (old sails also don't hold their shape as well, making them baggy even when tightened- and baggy sails aren't your friend). I like the balance of the boat best with the regular jib (Bubba jib now)- but if hanking on baby jib instead means my wife is smiling as we round the point into a lake full of whitecaps, I'm all for it! 7) I find the M15 a joy the sail upwind in a blow- and well behaved on a beam reach or below- but close reaching in gusty/shifty winds can feel unnerving due to the way the sails fill quickly (and the mast moves forward) without a backstay. Just pick your course accordingly and ease off in a controlled manner! 7) Get comfortable heaving to in a breeze- sometimes when its getting unnerving, just resting hove too for a minute or two gives everyone a change to collect themselves. Anyway, enough of this distraction from work and the overly long missive it resulted in- Jerry, thanks designing such a great sailor's sailboat- she's put a lot of smiles on our faces!
Alex
On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 9:56 AM <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I have knocked down my M15, and it stands right back up on it's own quickly, especially if you release the mainsheet. The boat cannot be capsized by strong winds- once the sails are in the water they're out of the wind and the boat won't go over any further. When this happened with my friend and I onboard in the California Delta, it wasn't really a scary experience, the boat still felt in control and we were having a fun time, but quickly reduced sail afterwards.
Going downwind you can sail on the main alone, but upwind you must always keep it balanced. I highly recommend a smaller size heavy weather jib plus a deep 2nd or 3rd reef point if you plan to regularly sail in heavy winds. My M15 can still go to windward on the windiest days in San Francisco bay using this configuration. Unfortunately, I have not found a way to easily change headsails single handedly, but with someone at the tiller to sail slightly upwind on the main alone, going forward is okay.
Singlehanded reefing is pretty relaxing, and can be done slowly and carefully even in the strongest wind once you are hove to, with the reefing line side of the boom facing upwind. I really recommend a WaveFront Marine tiller clutch to make this easier. Also, I don't recommend running lines to the cockpit if your boat doesn't have it already. It's easiest and safest to stand in the companionway for reefing, and you can easily reach halyards on the mast this way.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2022 11:06:00 PM Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do
John and I had a lovely sail back in the day with my M15. That is clearly the issue with the M15 is that with no backstay luffing the main bags the jib causing excessive heeling. In stiff winds cranking down on the vang and out haul, and making the jib tight as a drum is needed for that boat. Had I kept my M15 I would have gone with a furling jib because there is no other way to reduce the headsail on that boat. Also, sailing on main alone does not work well at all on an M15. Can’t go to windward. I know, I tried. The balance is terrible and there is excessive weather helm. You gotta have a jib. My SCAMP actually does quite well in a blow, because the luff the main method rather than pinch up into the wind works really well. That is Storer’s preferred method, and I have played with that with the SCAMP where I live, and it is really great. In a gust I just let out the main, and it is really controlled. For my sailing that is an advantage. In equal winds I find the SCAMP actually easier to sail. Now, the M15 is easier to reef for me, because I could heave to so easily. The SCAMP requires a park maneuver, and a quick lowering of the sail into the lazy jacks and then a reefing. Works but the M15 was easier in that regard. The M15 is super safe though. The excessive heel is no fun, but the boat is so stiff it will just stiffen right up. Even if by some chance you dumped it, the wind would dump and she would sit right back up I should think. I never did that.
Daniel
On Sep 7, 2022, at 10:45 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Yes, agreed Rusty, I didn't go into that detail. By 'losing power' I meant that making forward progress would be reduced. The heeling power is increased by the rounding/fullness of the jib, while the driving power is reduced. So on an M15 rounding up would be better than sheeting out. Except in an emergency where letting go the mainsheet prevents something more catastrophic.
On my M17 I have either option, I can round up and luff both sails in a gust, or I can reduce power on the main by sheeting out and/or lowering the traveler and still have the jib providing driving power.
cheers, John
On 9/7/22 21:51, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats wrote: John, one clarification on your comments as they pertain to the M15 and fractional rigs. Slackening the sheet does also slacken the forestay. But this gives more fullness to the jib, increasing not decreasing its power, and thus causing more heeling action. The sails should be as flat as possible in strong winds. Lots of tension on the downhaul/cunningham, outhaul, and maintaining sheet tension as much as possible by heading up, not sheeting out. Search for Dave Scobie’s excellent article on strong wind sailing as it pertains to M15’s and fractional rigs. Fair winds! www.rustyknorr.weebly.com<http://www.rustyknorr.weebly.com>
On Sep 7, 2022, at 4:36 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
For a few thoughts that are not specific to M15 but more in general...
On 9/7/22 12:14, Ernst van Gulijk wrote: Hello all, ... Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only.
Great stuff to practice. Especially sail-out, sail-in. I don't care how many fast reaches someone can do out in the middle of a lake, if they motor to get there and motor back they're missing a lot of sailing skill development (that they might really want when their motor dies out there...).
...
All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge. Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting).
First of all, "when in doubt, let it out" applies to the main sheet in terms of basic safety. With possible exceptions when you are about to go on the rocks or similar, and losing way is more dangerous than other consequences, letting the sheet out is a better strategy than getting knocked down.
The issue with easing the main sheet on an M15 is that you have no backstay, so forestay tension and thus jib luff tension depends somewhat on main sheet tension. If you slack the main sheet, your forestay and thus jib luff will slack some also, so you will lose power in the jib as well. Which might be a good thing, for the moment, in a brief strong gust. But if you are trying to go to windward it's a problem. I got to experience this once on Daniel Rich's M15.
1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected?
If it's a brief passing squall or gust of a few moments, you can just luff along for a bit, as long as you are not in other danger from losing way.
As you learn to read the water & wind/sky at your location(s), you may be able to see the wind picking up significantly from a ways across the lake, more than you can yet. And then have a few moments to reef proactively.
2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions?
Yes, that's a good learning strategy. Heave to in order to reef - then you get to practice both. Assuming you have enough room to drift downwind for a few moments without going aground, that is. Which suggests a strategy of not sailing too close to a lee shore when you might need to heave to. Give yourself plenty of space.
It's possible to reef without heaving to once you've got it down and don't have to think it through. Head to wind, and quick get the reef in before you fall off too far. But until then, make it easier, heave to first. The gustier and choppier the conditions, the less time you will have to put in the reef if you are not hove to, the wind and waves will push you away from head to wind quicker. Also your reefing setup (lines cleats etc.) can make it easier, or harder, to put in a reef quickly.
3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)?
M15 sailors better to answer that...my guess would be if that kept you from being overpowered, yes. Sail on the main until the squall passes and then raise the jib again. The M17 does not sail so great on main alone, being a masthead rig and more jib-driven. But it does sail still. How about the M15?
4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore.
I think the info has been (from Dave S, Jerry, maybe others as well) that the M-boat hulls are optimal performers at about 15 degrees of heel. Meaning, most speed, least wetted surface.
But it won't capsize just from going beyond that - you'd have to get knocked down close to horizontal and have other things go wrong (sail digging into water, taking on lots of water, etc.) to actually capsize. You can heel quite a bit more and keep on sailing. It just takes some getting used to. Let her heel more than you're comfortable with, and see where she does 'stiffen up' (stops heeling more). As the heel increases, the sails catch less wind and the keel weight counters the heel more, which results in the 'stiffening up' at some point. You can always slack the mainsheet if it gets too scary, back off, try again. I still work on this...from sailing mostly un-ballasted dinghies, I have a reflex to not let a boat heel so much.
The video of David G that Rusty posted is great, you can see the gusts coming on the water and then heeling him over. He lets it go quite a ways before needing to round up. So you can get an idea of how far over the boat can heel and keep sailing, and/or recover easily. You can also see how when he does slack the mainsheet, the forestay/jib luff loses some tension.
Keep sailing! cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
A vang is still useful when going downwind...broad reach or running... cheers, John On 9/15/22 11:25, Mike Epp wrote:
Thanks Alex for the thoughtful article.....but is a vang really necessary with mid boom sheeting?
On Thu, Sep 15, 2022, 9:53 AM Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:
Ok skippers The outhaul is crucial to trim. Here is how I rigged the SV Pelican.
Thank for the great article Alex
Capt Jim SV Pelican M15
Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2022 3:40:25 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do
We sail on a rather windy mountain lake prone to hard gusts and rapid wind shifts, and I'll second all that's been said here. In some ways the M15 is the best of both worlds- she is super responsive to helm and sail trim like a light dingy, but with the solidity of a larger boat once she's pushed over a bit. Her responsiveness means she can be initially scary in a breeze to folks not used to her- but its also what makes her a fun and absorbing boat to sail (let the others bob about in heavier boats around with too little sail up trying not to spill their drinks...). I will say that when it is gusty and shifty, an hour or twos sailing can be plenty, and that upwind in a chop she can be a wet boat (wet feet too)- we're lucky to have a quiet dock we can retreat to when wind and waves and constant attention and splashes in the face are enough. So specific thoughts- most just consolidating what others already said: 1) Sail trim is huge- tighten the halyards, down haul, boom vang (if you don't have one, get one) and especially, out-haul to flatten sails as the wind picks up. Rig an out-haul with some purchase that can be adjusted while sailing and use it (tighter as wind is up and headed upwind- loosen as wind drops and/or off the wind). Learning how to tweak sail shape makes a huge difference but is often ignored by casual sailors 2) With flat sails, the M15 does a great job of feathering (depowering when going upwind by sailing just a little closer to the wind than where you would in a lesser breeeze). Set the slot between the jib (sheeted pretty tight) and main so the front third of the main is backwinded but the sheet is still tight, let the windward telltale on the jib lift a bit (if you don't have jib telltales, get em and learn to use em- one of the cheapest big improvements you can make!)- there's a magic spot where the forces shift from pushing you over and tugging on the helm to surging you forward, the bow biting into the waves, you making microadjustments to keep in the sweet spot- those are the moments I dream of when bent over this computer mid-week- 3) Learn to read the water and anticipate puffs and the direction they'll come from- anticipate lifts and headers and steer accordingly, and depower in anticipation of puffs, knowing (at least on our lake) they tend to hit hardest right off then ease off a touch. Use your body weight- not just to flatten the boat when needed (but not too early- the M15 sails best at a moderate angle of heel where wetted area and waterline beam are reduced), but also to move your weight forward and lift that fat stern. With 2 to 3 aboard, as the wind rises she sails best with one person in the standing in companionway (and not just cause less water fills the cockpit from the drain then) 4) Reef when it gets uncomfortable (if the tiller is really fighting you, and you have to pull it hard to windward to sail straight, you'll probably sail faster and easilier with a reef in- look aft and you can see all that drag/turbulence on the rudder is slowing you down). Also read up on adjusting the mast rake for a well balanced helm- a few inches of rake can really change how the boat feels- and when set right, the boat will round right up and depower if you drop the helm but not fight you unnecessarily. 5) Pay attention to all the above about sail trim when you reef too- and make sure the after reefing line is pulling from an angle that pulls the reef cringe aft as well as down, so that you can get the foot of the main tight tight. Baggy sails are not your friend when it blows. 6) My wife loves "Baby jib", an 85% heavy weather jib- not only does it reduce sail area, it reduces the flapping mayhem and amount of muscle needed sheeting the jib when it is blowing, really reducing her fear of tweaking a bad shoulder. A second reef is also great even if you don't use it a lot- when things are rollicking with a reef in you have the security of knowing you can always calm things down- so if you don't have a second reef now and face high winds often, start dreaming about a new set of sails (old sails also don't hold their shape as well, making them baggy even when tightened- and baggy sails aren't your friend). I like the balance of the boat best with the regular jib (Bubba jib now)- but if hanking on baby jib instead means my wife is smiling as we round the point into a lake full of whitecaps, I'm all for it! 7) I find the M15 a joy the sail upwind in a blow- and well behaved on a beam reach or below- but close reaching in gusty/shifty winds can feel unnerving due to the way the sails fill quickly (and the mast moves forward) without a backstay. Just pick your course accordingly and ease off in a controlled manner! 7) Get comfortable heaving to in a breeze- sometimes when its getting unnerving, just resting hove too for a minute or two gives everyone a change to collect themselves. Anyway, enough of this distraction from work and the overly long missive it resulted in- Jerry, thanks designing such a great sailor's sailboat- she's put a lot of smiles on our faces!
Alex
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Seeing these responses now as I catch up on house stuff (sadly our mountain reservoir really drops away late in the irrigation season, meaning we have to pull the boat by labor day or risk having it stuck in the mud all winter...). The vang come into play as soon as you start loosening the main sheet- with the vang the sail swings like a door and keeps its controlled shape; without a vang even a few inches of letting out the main sheet (as soon as the sheet is not pulling straight down) the shape of the sail starts to change as the boom lifts and the leach curves- - the sail quickly loses its wing shape and bellies forward, with the top part twisting further out than the bottom part of the sail. That said I've spent many happy hours sailing our M15 without one- telltales and a good outhaul are way cheaper tweaks to start with! Re outhaul- here's my basic rig- except I used an old block without a becket, so just tied the line to the boom end fitting, out through sail, back through block and to cleat- nice 2 part purchase that makes it easier to make fine adjustments under sail- way better than just tieing the sail to the boom end fitting as was the previous set up. Happy sailing all! [image: image.png]
Alex, haven’t followed the thread much with summer chores… but it comes down to : “ Real Sailors Reef” . As in well set up, practice, do it early. Separates the Women from the girls, Men from the boys. Of any age. Fair winds. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 18, 2022, at 11:29 AM, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote: Seeing these responses now as I catch up on house stuff (sadly our mountain reservoir really drops away late in the irrigation season, meaning we have to pull the boat by labor day or risk having it stuck in the mud all winter...). The vang come into play as soon as you start loosening the main sheet- with the vang the sail swings like a door and keeps its controlled shape; without a vang even a few inches of letting out the main sheet (as soon as the sheet is not pulling straight down) the shape of the sail starts to change as the boom lifts and the leach curves- - the sail quickly loses its wing shape and bellies forward, with the top part twisting further out than the bottom part of the sail. That said I've spent many happy hours sailing our M15 without one- telltales and a good outhaul are way cheaper tweaks to start with! Re outhaul- here's my basic rig- except I used an old block without a becket, so just tied the line to the boom end fitting, out through sail, back through block and to cleat- nice 2 part purchase that makes it easier to make fine adjustments under sail- way better than just tieing the sail to the boom end fitting as was the previous set up. Happy sailing all! [image: image.png]
One thing I did run into after having read through the various posts on this topic is the following; where to place the boom relative to the mast when shore-launching with a second reef in the main? In other words, when setting up from scratch - and the sail not reefed - raising the main will result in the boom arriving at somewhat fixed point on the mast. A couple of weekends ago, when preparing to launch the boat, the conditions suggested I'd better start out with a second reef in the main. In going through the (normal) set up procedure, I came to realize that I could place the boom essentially anywhere on the mast, and wondered how to approach this. In the end I somewhat guessed on a location, one where the boom wasn't going to hit me in the head, but also no so high that the remaining portion of the sail was 5 feet above the cabin. Is this as simple as marking the mast with some type of label to indicate where the boom would/should normally interface with it? -----Original Message----- From: Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 1:29 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do Seeing these responses now as I catch up on house stuff (sadly our mountain reservoir really drops away late in the irrigation season, meaning we have to pull the boat by labor day or risk having it stuck in the mud all winter...). The vang come into play as soon as you start loosening the main sheet- with the vang the sail swings like a door and keeps its controlled shape; without a vang even a few inches of letting out the main sheet (as soon as the sheet is not pulling straight down) the shape of the sail starts to change as the boom lifts and the leach curves- - the sail quickly loses its wing shape and bellies forward, with the top part twisting further out than the bottom part of the sail. That said I've spent many happy hours sailing our M15 without one- telltales and a good outhaul are way cheaper tweaks to start with! Re outhaul- here's my basic rig- except I used an old block without a becket, so just tied the line to the boom end fitting, out through sail, back through block and to cleat- nice 2 part purchase that makes it easier to make fine adjustments under sail- way better than just tieing the sail to the boom end fitting as was the previous set up. Happy sailing all! [image: image.png]
You should have a downhaul line running The through ring on the sliding gooseneck. This line will keep the boom from sliding up. Set the boom height when the main is at full hoist. Raise sail and set line so boom keeps main about an inch-ish from full hoist. This is so the line length allows you to increase/decrease luff tension as wind speed increases/decreases (same idea as adjusting jib halyard tension). With the downhaul line set the boom will default to an appropriate height when reefing. Picture attached showing boom downhaul line setup on my old M17 (line highlighted in red). I recommend the line runs to the cockpit (not pictured) as luff tension is actively done as wind speed changes. This setup is identical on M17s, M15s and Sage 15s. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Thu, Oct 6, 2022, 09:09 Ernst van Gulijk <Ernst@nteglobal.com> wrote:
One thing I did run into after having read through the various posts on this topic is the following; where to place the boom relative to the mast when shore-launching with a second reef in the main? In other words, when setting up from scratch - and the sail not reefed - raising the main will result in the boom arriving at somewhat fixed point on the mast. A couple of weekends ago, when preparing to launch the boat, the conditions suggested I'd better start out with a second reef in the main. In going through the (normal) set up procedure, I came to realize that I could place the boom essentially anywhere on the mast, and wondered how to approach this. In the end I somewhat guessed on a location, one where the boom wasn't going to hit me in the head, but also no so high that the remaining portion of the sail was 5 feet above the cabin. Is this as simple as marking the mast with some type of label to indicate where the boom would/should normally interface with it?
You can also use a regular cunningham/downhaul thru the tack grommet on your sail. This adds or releases tension directly on the sail luff, rather than relying on the gooseneck to be able to slide in the mast track. When you're sailing there's tension/pressure on the part of the gooseneck that's in the mast track, so it's less likely to slide easily (or at all) in the track. cheers, John On 10/6/22 09:30, Dave Scobie wrote:
You should have a downhaul line running The through ring on the sliding gooseneck. This line will keep the boom from sliding up.
Set the boom height when the main is at full hoist. Raise sail and set line so boom keeps main about an inch-ish from full hoist. This is so the line length allows you to increase/decrease luff tension as wind speed increases/decreases (same idea as adjusting jib halyard tension).
With the downhaul line set the boom will default to an appropriate height when reefing.
Picture attached showing boom downhaul line setup on my old M17 (line highlighted in red). I recommend the line runs to the cockpit (not pictured) as luff tension is actively done as wind speed changes. This setup is identical on M17s, M15s and Sage 15s.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Thu, Oct 6, 2022, 09:09 Ernst van Gulijk <Ernst@nteglobal.com> wrote:
One thing I did run into after having read through the various posts on this topic is the following; where to place the boom relative to the mast when shore-launching with a second reef in the main? In other words, when setting up from scratch - and the sail not reefed - raising the main will result in the boom arriving at somewhat fixed point on the mast. A couple of weekends ago, when preparing to launch the boat, the conditions suggested I'd better start out with a second reef in the main. In going through the (normal) set up procedure, I came to realize that I could place the boom essentially anywhere on the mast, and wondered how to approach this. In the end I somewhat guessed on a location, one where the boom wasn't going to hit me in the head, but also no so high that the remaining portion of the sail was 5 feet above the cabin. Is this as simple as marking the mast with some type of label to indicate where the boom would/should normally interface with it?
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Capt Alex The outhaul makes all of the difference Capt Jim -----Original Message----- From: Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2022 3:40 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do We sail on a rather windy mountain lake prone to hard gusts and rapid wind shifts, and I'll second all that's been said here. In some ways the M15 is the best of both worlds- she is super responsive to helm and sail trim like a light dingy, but with the solidity of a larger boat once she's pushed over a bit. Her responsiveness means she can be initially scary in a breeze to folks not used to her- but its also what makes her a fun and absorbing boat to sail (let the others bob about in heavier boats around with too little sail up trying not to spill their drinks...). I will say that when it is gusty and shifty, an hour or twos sailing can be plenty, and that upwind in a chop she can be a wet boat (wet feet too)- we're lucky to have a quiet dock we can retreat to when wind and waves and constant attention and splashes in the face are enough. So specific thoughts- most just consolidating what others already said: 1) Sail trim is huge- tighten the halyards, down haul, boom vang (if you don't have one, get one) and especially, out-haul to flatten sails as the wind picks up. Rig an out-haul with some purchase that can be adjusted while sailing and use it (tighter as wind is up and headed upwind- loosen as wind drops and/or off the wind). Learning how to tweak sail shape makes a huge difference but is often ignored by casual sailors 2) With flat sails, the M15 does a great job of feathering (depowering when going upwind by sailing just a little closer to the wind than where you would in a lesser breeeze). Set the slot between the jib (sheeted pretty tight) and main so the front third of the main is backwinded but the sheet is still tight, let the windward telltale on the jib lift a bit (if you don't have jib telltales, get em and learn to use em- one of the cheapest big improvements you can make!)- there's a magic spot where the forces shift from pushing you over and tugging on the helm to surging you forward, the bow biting into the waves, you making microadjustments to keep in the sweet spot- those are the moments I dream of when bent over this computer mid-week- 3) Learn to read the water and anticipate puffs and the direction they'll come from- anticipate lifts and headers and steer accordingly, and depower in anticipation of puffs, knowing (at least on our lake) they tend to hit hardest right off then ease off a touch. Use your body weight- not just to flatten the boat when needed (but not too early- the M15 sails best at a moderate angle of heel where wetted area and waterline beam are reduced), but also to move your weight forward and lift that fat stern. With 2 to 3 aboard, as the wind rises she sails best with one person in the standing in companionway (and not just cause less water fills the cockpit from the drain then) 4) Reef when it gets uncomfortable (if the tiller is really fighting you, and you have to pull it hard to windward to sail straight, you'll probably sail faster and easilier with a reef in- look aft and you can see all that drag/turbulence on the rudder is slowing you down). Also read up on adjusting the mast rake for a well balanced helm- a few inches of rake can really change how the boat feels- and when set right, the boat will round right up and depower if you drop the helm but not fight you unnecessarily. 5) Pay attention to all the above about sail trim when you reef too- and make sure the after reefing line is pulling from an angle that pulls the reef cringe aft as well as down, so that you can get the foot of the main tight tight. Baggy sails are not your friend when it blows. 6) My wife loves "Baby jib", an 85% heavy weather jib- not only does it reduce sail area, it reduces the flapping mayhem and amount of muscle needed sheeting the jib when it is blowing, really reducing her fear of tweaking a bad shoulder. A second reef is also great even if you don't use it a lot- when things are rollicking with a reef in you have the security of knowing you can always calm things down- so if you don't have a second reef now and face high winds often, start dreaming about a new set of sails (old sails also don't hold their shape as well, making them baggy even when tightened- and baggy sails aren't your friend). I like the balance of the boat best with the regular jib (Bubba jib now)- but if hanking on baby jib instead means my wife is smiling as we round the point into a lake full of whitecaps, I'm all for it! 7) I find the M15 a joy the sail upwind in a blow- and well behaved on a beam reach or below- but close reaching in gusty/shifty winds can feel unnerving due to the way the sails fill quickly (and the mast moves forward) without a backstay. Just pick your course accordingly and ease off in a controlled manner! 7) Get comfortable heaving to in a breeze- sometimes when its getting unnerving, just resting hove too for a minute or two gives everyone a change to collect themselves. Anyway, enough of this distraction from work and the overly long missive it resulted in- Jerry, thanks designing such a great sailor's sailboat- she's put a lot of smiles on our faces! Alex On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 9:56 AM <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I have knocked down my M15, and it stands right back up on it's own quickly, especially if you release the mainsheet. The boat cannot be capsized by strong winds- once the sails are in the water they're out of the wind and the boat won't go over any further. When this happened with my friend and I onboard in the California Delta, it wasn't really a scary experience, the boat still felt in control and we were having a fun time, but quickly reduced sail afterwards.
Going downwind you can sail on the main alone, but upwind you must always keep it balanced. I highly recommend a smaller size heavy weather jib plus a deep 2nd or 3rd reef point if you plan to regularly sail in heavy winds. My M15 can still go to windward on the windiest days in San Francisco bay using this configuration. Unfortunately, I have not found a way to easily change headsails single handedly, but with someone at the tiller to sail slightly upwind on the main alone, going forward is okay.
Singlehanded reefing is pretty relaxing, and can be done slowly and carefully even in the strongest wind once you are hove to, with the reefing line side of the boom facing upwind. I really recommend a WaveFront Marine tiller clutch to make this easier. Also, I don't recommend running lines to the cockpit if your boat doesn't have it already. It's easiest and safest to stand in the companionway for reefing, and you can easily reach halyards on the mast this way.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2022 11:06:00 PM Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do
John and I had a lovely sail back in the day with my M15. That is clearly the issue with the M15 is that with no backstay luffing the main bags the jib causing excessive heeling. In stiff winds cranking down on the vang and out haul, and making the jib tight as a drum is needed for that boat. Had I kept my M15 I would have gone with a furling jib because there is no other way to reduce the headsail on that boat. Also, sailing on main alone does not work well at all on an M15. Can’t go to windward. I know, I tried. The balance is terrible and there is excessive weather helm. You gotta have a jib. My SCAMP actually does quite well in a blow, because the luff the main method rather than pinch up into the wind works really well. That is Storer’s preferred method, and I have played with that with the SCAMP where I live, and it is really great. In a gust I just let out the main, and it is really controlled. For my sailing that is an advantage. In equal winds I find the SCAMP actually easier to sail. Now, the M15 is easier to reef for me, because I could heave to so easily. The SCAMP requires a park maneuver, and a quick lowering of the sail into the lazy jacks and then a reefing. Works but the M15 was easier in that regard. The M15 is super safe though. The excessive heel is no fun, but the boat is so stiff it will just stiffen right up. Even if by some chance you dumped it, the wind would dump and she would sit right back up I should think. I never did that.
Daniel
On Sep 7, 2022, at 10:45 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Yes, agreed Rusty, I didn't go into that detail. By 'losing power' I meant that making forward progress would be reduced. The heeling power is increased by the rounding/fullness of the jib, while the driving power is reduced. So on an M15 rounding up would be better than sheeting out. Except in an emergency where letting go the mainsheet prevents something more catastrophic.
On my M17 I have either option, I can round up and luff both sails in a gust, or I can reduce power on the main by sheeting out and/or lowering the traveler and still have the jib providing driving power.
cheers, John
On 9/7/22 21:51, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats wrote: John, one clarification on your comments as they pertain to the M15 and fractional rigs. Slackening the sheet does also slacken the forestay. But this gives more fullness to the jib, increasing not decreasing its power, and thus causing more heeling action. The sails should be as flat as possible in strong winds. Lots of tension on the downhaul/cunningham, outhaul, and maintaining sheet tension as much as possible by heading up, not sheeting out. Search for Dave Scobie’s excellent article on strong wind sailing as it pertains to M15’s and fractional rigs. Fair winds! www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Sep 7, 2022, at 4:36 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
For a few thoughts that are not specific to M15 but more in general...
On 9/7/22 12:14, Ernst van Gulijk wrote: Hello all, ... Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only.
Great stuff to practice. Especially sail-out, sail-in. I don't care how many fast reaches someone can do out in the middle of a lake, if they motor to get there and motor back they're missing a lot of sailing skill development (that they might really want when their motor dies out there...).
...
All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge. Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting).
First of all, "when in doubt, let it out" applies to the main sheet in terms of basic safety. With possible exceptions when you are about to go on the rocks or similar, and losing way is more dangerous than other consequences, letting the sheet out is a better strategy than getting knocked down.
The issue with easing the main sheet on an M15 is that you have no backstay, so forestay tension and thus jib luff tension depends somewhat on main sheet tension. If you slack the main sheet, your forestay and thus jib luff will slack some also, so you will lose power in the jib as well. Which might be a good thing, for the moment, in a brief strong gust. But if you are trying to go to windward it's a problem. I got to experience this once on Daniel Rich's M15.
1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected?
If it's a brief passing squall or gust of a few moments, you can just luff along for a bit, as long as you are not in other danger from losing way.
As you learn to read the water & wind/sky at your location(s), you may be able to see the wind picking up significantly from a ways across the lake, more than you can yet. And then have a few moments to reef proactively.
2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions?
Yes, that's a good learning strategy. Heave to in order to reef - then you get to practice both. Assuming you have enough room to drift downwind for a few moments without going aground, that is. Which suggests a strategy of not sailing too close to a lee shore when you might need to heave to. Give yourself plenty of space.
It's possible to reef without heaving to once you've got it down and don't have to think it through. Head to wind, and quick get the reef in before you fall off too far. But until then, make it easier, heave to first. The gustier and choppier the conditions, the less time you will have to put in the reef if you are not hove to, the wind and waves will push you away from head to wind quicker. Also your reefing setup (lines cleats etc.) can make it easier, or harder, to put in a reef quickly.
3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)?
M15 sailors better to answer that...my guess would be if that kept you from being overpowered, yes. Sail on the main until the squall passes and then raise the jib again. The M17 does not sail so great on main alone, being a masthead rig and more jib-driven. But it does sail still. How about the M15?
4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore.
I think the info has been (from Dave S, Jerry, maybe others as well) that the M-boat hulls are optimal performers at about 15 degrees of heel. Meaning, most speed, least wetted surface.
But it won't capsize just from going beyond that - you'd have to get knocked down close to horizontal and have other things go wrong (sail digging into water, taking on lots of water, etc.) to actually capsize. You can heel quite a bit more and keep on sailing. It just takes some getting used to. Let her heel more than you're comfortable with, and see where she does 'stiffen up' (stops heeling more). As the heel increases, the sails catch less wind and the keel weight counters the heel more, which results in the 'stiffening up' at some point. You can always slack the mainsheet if it gets too scary, back off, try again. I still work on this...from sailing mostly un-ballasted dinghies, I have a reflex to not let a boat heel so much.
The video of David G that Rusty posted is great, you can see the gusts coming on the water and then heeling him over. He lets it go quite a ways before needing to round up. So you can get an idea of how far over the boat can heel and keep sailing, and/or recover easily. You can also see how when he does slack the mainsheet, the forestay/jib luff loses some tension.
Keep sailing! cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Capt. Alex Your message gives me goose bumps....Thanks for sharing Capt Jim SV Pelican M15 -----Original Message----- From: Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2022 3:40 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do We sail on a rather windy mountain lake prone to hard gusts and rapid wind shifts, and I'll second all that's been said here. In some ways the M15 is the best of both worlds- she is super responsive to helm and sail trim like a light dingy, but with the solidity of a larger boat once she's pushed over a bit. Her responsiveness means she can be initially scary in a breeze to folks not used to her- but its also what makes her a fun and absorbing boat to sail (let the others bob about in heavier boats around with too little sail up trying not to spill their drinks...). I will say that when it is gusty and shifty, an hour or twos sailing can be plenty, and that upwind in a chop she can be a wet boat (wet feet too)- we're lucky to have a quiet dock we can retreat to when wind and waves and constant attention and splashes in the face are enough. So specific thoughts- most just consolidating what others already said: 1) Sail trim is huge- tighten the halyards, down haul, boom vang (if you don't have one, get one) and especially, out-haul to flatten sails as the wind picks up. Rig an out-haul with some purchase that can be adjusted while sailing and use it (tighter as wind is up and headed upwind- loosen as wind drops and/or off the wind). Learning how to tweak sail shape makes a huge difference but is often ignored by casual sailors 2) With flat sails, the M15 does a great job of feathering (depowering when going upwind by sailing just a little closer to the wind than where you would in a lesser breeeze). Set the slot between the jib (sheeted pretty tight) and main so the front third of the main is backwinded but the sheet is still tight, let the windward telltale on the jib lift a bit (if you don't have jib telltales, get em and learn to use em- one of the cheapest big improvements you can make!)- there's a magic spot where the forces shift from pushing you over and tugging on the helm to surging you forward, the bow biting into the waves, you making microadjustments to keep in the sweet spot- those are the moments I dream of when bent over this computer mid-week- 3) Learn to read the water and anticipate puffs and the direction they'll come from- anticipate lifts and headers and steer accordingly, and depower in anticipation of puffs, knowing (at least on our lake) they tend to hit hardest right off then ease off a touch. Use your body weight- not just to flatten the boat when needed (but not too early- the M15 sails best at a moderate angle of heel where wetted area and waterline beam are reduced), but also to move your weight forward and lift that fat stern. With 2 to 3 aboard, as the wind rises she sails best with one person in the standing in companionway (and not just cause less water fills the cockpit from the drain then) 4) Reef when it gets uncomfortable (if the tiller is really fighting you, and you have to pull it hard to windward to sail straight, you'll probably sail faster and easilier with a reef in- look aft and you can see all that drag/turbulence on the rudder is slowing you down). Also read up on adjusting the mast rake for a well balanced helm- a few inches of rake can really change how the boat feels- and when set right, the boat will round right up and depower if you drop the helm but not fight you unnecessarily. 5) Pay attention to all the above about sail trim when you reef too- and make sure the after reefing line is pulling from an angle that pulls the reef cringe aft as well as down, so that you can get the foot of the main tight tight. Baggy sails are not your friend when it blows. 6) My wife loves "Baby jib", an 85% heavy weather jib- not only does it reduce sail area, it reduces the flapping mayhem and amount of muscle needed sheeting the jib when it is blowing, really reducing her fear of tweaking a bad shoulder. A second reef is also great even if you don't use it a lot- when things are rollicking with a reef in you have the security of knowing you can always calm things down- so if you don't have a second reef now and face high winds often, start dreaming about a new set of sails (old sails also don't hold their shape as well, making them baggy even when tightened- and baggy sails aren't your friend). I like the balance of the boat best with the regular jib (Bubba jib now)- but if hanking on baby jib instead means my wife is smiling as we round the point into a lake full of whitecaps, I'm all for it! 7) I find the M15 a joy the sail upwind in a blow- and well behaved on a beam reach or below- but close reaching in gusty/shifty winds can feel unnerving due to the way the sails fill quickly (and the mast moves forward) without a backstay. Just pick your course accordingly and ease off in a controlled manner! 7) Get comfortable heaving to in a breeze- sometimes when its getting unnerving, just resting hove too for a minute or two gives everyone a change to collect themselves. Anyway, enough of this distraction from work and the overly long missive it resulted in- Jerry, thanks designing such a great sailor's sailboat- she's put a lot of smiles on our faces! Alex On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 9:56 AM <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I have knocked down my M15, and it stands right back up on it's own quickly, especially if you release the mainsheet. The boat cannot be capsized by strong winds- once the sails are in the water they're out of the wind and the boat won't go over any further. When this happened with my friend and I onboard in the California Delta, it wasn't really a scary experience, the boat still felt in control and we were having a fun time, but quickly reduced sail afterwards.
Going downwind you can sail on the main alone, but upwind you must always keep it balanced. I highly recommend a smaller size heavy weather jib plus a deep 2nd or 3rd reef point if you plan to regularly sail in heavy winds. My M15 can still go to windward on the windiest days in San Francisco bay using this configuration. Unfortunately, I have not found a way to easily change headsails single handedly, but with someone at the tiller to sail slightly upwind on the main alone, going forward is okay.
Singlehanded reefing is pretty relaxing, and can be done slowly and carefully even in the strongest wind once you are hove to, with the reefing line side of the boom facing upwind. I really recommend a WaveFront Marine tiller clutch to make this easier. Also, I don't recommend running lines to the cockpit if your boat doesn't have it already. It's easiest and safest to stand in the companionway for reefing, and you can easily reach halyards on the mast this way.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2022 11:06:00 PM Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do
John and I had a lovely sail back in the day with my M15. That is clearly the issue with the M15 is that with no backstay luffing the main bags the jib causing excessive heeling. In stiff winds cranking down on the vang and out haul, and making the jib tight as a drum is needed for that boat. Had I kept my M15 I would have gone with a furling jib because there is no other way to reduce the headsail on that boat. Also, sailing on main alone does not work well at all on an M15. Can’t go to windward. I know, I tried. The balance is terrible and there is excessive weather helm. You gotta have a jib. My SCAMP actually does quite well in a blow, because the luff the main method rather than pinch up into the wind works really well. That is Storer’s preferred method, and I have played with that with the SCAMP where I live, and it is really great. In a gust I just let out the main, and it is really controlled. For my sailing that is an advantage. In equal winds I find the SCAMP actually easier to sail. Now, the M15 is easier to reef for me, because I could heave to so easily. The SCAMP requires a park maneuver, and a quick lowering of the sail into the lazy jacks and then a reefing. Works but the M15 was easier in that regard. The M15 is super safe though. The excessive heel is no fun, but the boat is so stiff it will just stiffen right up. Even if by some chance you dumped it, the wind would dump and she would sit right back up I should think. I never did that.
Daniel
On Sep 7, 2022, at 10:45 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Yes, agreed Rusty, I didn't go into that detail. By 'losing power' I meant that making forward progress would be reduced. The heeling power is increased by the rounding/fullness of the jib, while the driving power is reduced. So on an M15 rounding up would be better than sheeting out. Except in an emergency where letting go the mainsheet prevents something more catastrophic.
On my M17 I have either option, I can round up and luff both sails in a gust, or I can reduce power on the main by sheeting out and/or lowering the traveler and still have the jib providing driving power.
cheers, John
On 9/7/22 21:51, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats wrote: John, one clarification on your comments as they pertain to the M15 and fractional rigs. Slackening the sheet does also slacken the forestay. But this gives more fullness to the jib, increasing not decreasing its power, and thus causing more heeling action. The sails should be as flat as possible in strong winds. Lots of tension on the downhaul/cunningham, outhaul, and maintaining sheet tension as much as possible by heading up, not sheeting out. Search for Dave Scobie’s excellent article on strong wind sailing as it pertains to M15’s and fractional rigs. Fair winds! www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Sep 7, 2022, at 4:36 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
For a few thoughts that are not specific to M15 but more in general...
On 9/7/22 12:14, Ernst van Gulijk wrote: Hello all, ... Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only.
Great stuff to practice. Especially sail-out, sail-in. I don't care how many fast reaches someone can do out in the middle of a lake, if they motor to get there and motor back they're missing a lot of sailing skill development (that they might really want when their motor dies out there...).
...
All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge. Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting).
First of all, "when in doubt, let it out" applies to the main sheet in terms of basic safety. With possible exceptions when you are about to go on the rocks or similar, and losing way is more dangerous than other consequences, letting the sheet out is a better strategy than getting knocked down.
The issue with easing the main sheet on an M15 is that you have no backstay, so forestay tension and thus jib luff tension depends somewhat on main sheet tension. If you slack the main sheet, your forestay and thus jib luff will slack some also, so you will lose power in the jib as well. Which might be a good thing, for the moment, in a brief strong gust. But if you are trying to go to windward it's a problem. I got to experience this once on Daniel Rich's M15.
1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected?
If it's a brief passing squall or gust of a few moments, you can just luff along for a bit, as long as you are not in other danger from losing way.
As you learn to read the water & wind/sky at your location(s), you may be able to see the wind picking up significantly from a ways across the lake, more than you can yet. And then have a few moments to reef proactively.
2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions?
Yes, that's a good learning strategy. Heave to in order to reef - then you get to practice both. Assuming you have enough room to drift downwind for a few moments without going aground, that is. Which suggests a strategy of not sailing too close to a lee shore when you might need to heave to. Give yourself plenty of space.
It's possible to reef without heaving to once you've got it down and don't have to think it through. Head to wind, and quick get the reef in before you fall off too far. But until then, make it easier, heave to first. The gustier and choppier the conditions, the less time you will have to put in the reef if you are not hove to, the wind and waves will push you away from head to wind quicker. Also your reefing setup (lines cleats etc.) can make it easier, or harder, to put in a reef quickly.
3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)?
M15 sailors better to answer that...my guess would be if that kept you from being overpowered, yes. Sail on the main until the squall passes and then raise the jib again. The M17 does not sail so great on main alone, being a masthead rig and more jib-driven. But it does sail still. How about the M15?
4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore.
I think the info has been (from Dave S, Jerry, maybe others as well) that the M-boat hulls are optimal performers at about 15 degrees of heel. Meaning, most speed, least wetted surface.
But it won't capsize just from going beyond that - you'd have to get knocked down close to horizontal and have other things go wrong (sail digging into water, taking on lots of water, etc.) to actually capsize. You can heel quite a bit more and keep on sailing. It just takes some getting used to. Let her heel more than you're comfortable with, and see where she does 'stiffen up' (stops heeling more). As the heel increases, the sails catch less wind and the keel weight counters the heel more, which results in the 'stiffening up' at some point. You can always slack the mainsheet if it gets too scary, back off, try again. I still work on this...from sailing mostly un-ballasted dinghies, I have a reflex to not let a boat heel so much.
The video of David G that Rusty posted is great, you can see the gusts coming on the water and then heeling him over. He lets it go quite a ways before needing to round up. So you can get an idea of how far over the boat can heel and keep sailing, and/or recover easily. You can also see how when he does slack the mainsheet, the forestay/jib luff loses some tension.
Keep sailing! cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks all for this thread. Esp for the video! Had some great wind this week, gusts over 20, and even though I was overpowered and carrying too much sail, I had the confidence I needed to nose my way back to the dock to put in a reef and pick up crew. With an extra hand aboard to chase things down when they blew free, I felt good leaving the working jib up, and had a blast, flying along at 25 deg tilt One of those days where you come back to dock at sunset and all I can say is "I love this boat!" Jennifer Wood (she/her) SV At Last M17 On Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 8:01 AM Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:
Capt. Alex
Your message gives me goose bumps....Thanks for sharing
Capt Jim SV Pelican M15
-----Original Message----- From: Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2022 3:40 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do
We sail on a rather windy mountain lake prone to hard gusts and rapid wind shifts, and I'll second all that's been said here. In some ways the M15 is the best of both worlds- she is super responsive to helm and sail trim like a light dingy, but with the solidity of a larger boat once she's pushed over a bit. Her responsiveness means she can be initially scary in a breeze to folks not used to her- but its also what makes her a fun and absorbing boat to sail (let the others bob about in heavier boats around with too little sail up trying not to spill their drinks...). I will say that when it is gusty and shifty, an hour or twos sailing can be plenty, and that upwind in a chop she can be a wet boat (wet feet too)- we're lucky to have a quiet dock we can retreat to when wind and waves and constant attention and splashes in the face are enough. So specific thoughts- most just consolidating what others already said: 1) Sail trim is huge- tighten the halyards, down haul, boom vang (if you don't have one, get one) and especially, out-haul to flatten sails as the wind picks up. Rig an out-haul with some purchase that can be adjusted while sailing and use it (tighter as wind is up and headed upwind- loosen as wind drops and/or off the wind). Learning how to tweak sail shape makes a huge difference but is often ignored by casual sailors 2) With flat sails, the M15 does a great job of feathering (depowering when going upwind by sailing just a little closer to the wind than where you would in a lesser breeeze). Set the slot between the jib (sheeted pretty tight) and main so the front third of the main is backwinded but the sheet is still tight, let the windward telltale on the jib lift a bit (if you don't have jib telltales, get em and learn to use em- one of the cheapest big improvements you can make!)- there's a magic spot where the forces shift from pushing you over and tugging on the helm to surging you forward, the bow biting into the waves, you making microadjustments to keep in the sweet spot- those are the moments I dream of when bent over this computer mid-week- 3) Learn to read the water and anticipate puffs and the direction they'll come from- anticipate lifts and headers and steer accordingly, and depower in anticipation of puffs, knowing (at least on our lake) they tend to hit hardest right off then ease off a touch. Use your body weight- not just to flatten the boat when needed (but not too early- the M15 sails best at a moderate angle of heel where wetted area and waterline beam are reduced), but also to move your weight forward and lift that fat stern. With 2 to 3 aboard, as the wind rises she sails best with one person in the standing in companionway (and not just cause less water fills the cockpit from the drain then) 4) Reef when it gets uncomfortable (if the tiller is really fighting you, and you have to pull it hard to windward to sail straight, you'll probably sail faster and easilier with a reef in- look aft and you can see all that drag/turbulence on the rudder is slowing you down). Also read up on adjusting the mast rake for a well balanced helm- a few inches of rake can really change how the boat feels- and when set right, the boat will round right up and depower if you drop the helm but not fight you unnecessarily. 5) Pay attention to all the above about sail trim when you reef too- and make sure the after reefing line is pulling from an angle that pulls the reef cringe aft as well as down, so that you can get the foot of the main tight tight. Baggy sails are not your friend when it blows. 6) My wife loves "Baby jib", an 85% heavy weather jib- not only does it reduce sail area, it reduces the flapping mayhem and amount of muscle needed sheeting the jib when it is blowing, really reducing her fear of tweaking a bad shoulder. A second reef is also great even if you don't use it a lot- when things are rollicking with a reef in you have the security of knowing you can always calm things down- so if you don't have a second reef now and face high winds often, start dreaming about a new set of sails (old sails also don't hold their shape as well, making them baggy even when tightened- and baggy sails aren't your friend). I like the balance of the boat best with the regular jib (Bubba jib now)- but if hanking on baby jib instead means my wife is smiling as we round the point into a lake full of whitecaps, I'm all for it! 7) I find the M15 a joy the sail upwind in a blow- and well behaved on a beam reach or below- but close reaching in gusty/shifty winds can feel unnerving due to the way the sails fill quickly (and the mast moves forward) without a backstay. Just pick your course accordingly and ease off in a controlled manner! 7) Get comfortable heaving to in a breeze- sometimes when its getting unnerving, just resting hove too for a minute or two gives everyone a change to collect themselves. Anyway, enough of this distraction from work and the overly long missive it resulted in- Jerry, thanks designing such a great sailor's sailboat- she's put a lot of smiles on our faces!
Alex
On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 9:56 AM <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I have knocked down my M15, and it stands right back up on it's own quickly, especially if you release the mainsheet. The boat cannot be capsized by strong winds- once the sails are in the water they're out of the wind and the boat won't go over any further. When this happened with my friend and I onboard in the California Delta, it wasn't really a scary experience, the boat still felt in control and we were having a fun time, but quickly reduced sail afterwards.
Going downwind you can sail on the main alone, but upwind you must always keep it balanced. I highly recommend a smaller size heavy weather jib plus a deep 2nd or 3rd reef point if you plan to regularly sail in heavy winds. My M15 can still go to windward on the windiest days in San Francisco bay using this configuration. Unfortunately, I have not found a way to easily change headsails single handedly, but with someone at the tiller to sail slightly upwind on the main alone, going forward is okay.
Singlehanded reefing is pretty relaxing, and can be done slowly and carefully even in the strongest wind once you are hove to, with the reefing line side of the boom facing upwind. I really recommend a WaveFront Marine tiller clutch to make this easier. Also, I don't recommend running lines to the cockpit if your boat doesn't have it already. It's easiest and safest to stand in the companionway for reefing, and you can easily reach halyards on the mast this way.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2022 11:06:00 PM Subject: M_Boats: Re: sailing in gusty winds - what to do
John and I had a lovely sail back in the day with my M15. That is clearly the issue with the M15 is that with no backstay luffing the main bags the jib causing excessive heeling. In stiff winds cranking down on the vang and out haul, and making the jib tight as a drum is needed for that boat. Had I kept my M15 I would have gone with a furling jib because there is no other way to reduce the headsail on that boat. Also, sailing on main alone does not work well at all on an M15. Can’t go to windward. I know, I tried. The balance is terrible and there is excessive weather helm. You gotta have a jib. My SCAMP actually does quite well in a blow, because the luff the main method rather than pinch up into the wind works really well. That is Storer’s preferred method, and I have played with that with the SCAMP where I live, and it is really great. In a gust I just let out the main, and it is really controlled. For my sailing that is an advantage. In equal winds I find the SCAMP actually easier to sail. Now, the M15 is easier to reef for me, because I could heave to so easily. The SCAMP requires a park maneuver, and a quick lowering of the sail into the lazy jacks and then a reefing. Works but the M15 was easier in that regard. The M15 is super safe though. The excessive heel is no fun, but the boat is so stiff it will just stiffen right up. Even if by some chance you dumped it, the wind would dump and she would sit right back up I should think. I never did that.
Daniel
On Sep 7, 2022, at 10:45 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Yes, agreed Rusty, I didn't go into that detail. By 'losing power' I meant that making forward progress would be reduced. The heeling power is increased by the rounding/fullness of the jib, while the driving power is reduced. So on an M15 rounding up would be better than sheeting out. Except in an emergency where letting go the mainsheet prevents something more catastrophic.
On my M17 I have either option, I can round up and luff both sails in a gust, or I can reduce power on the main by sheeting out and/or lowering the traveler and still have the jib providing driving power.
cheers, John
On 9/7/22 21:51, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats wrote: John, one clarification on your comments as they pertain to the M15 and fractional rigs. Slackening the sheet does also slacken the forestay. But this gives more fullness to the jib, increasing not decreasing its power, and thus causing more heeling action. The sails should be as flat as possible in strong winds. Lots of tension on the downhaul/cunningham, outhaul, and maintaining sheet tension as much as possible by heading up, not sheeting out. Search for Dave Scobie’s excellent article on strong wind sailing as it pertains to M15’s and fractional rigs. Fair winds! www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Sep 7, 2022, at 4:36 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
For a few thoughts that are not specific to M15 but more in general...
On 9/7/22 12:14, Ernst van Gulijk wrote: Hello all, ... Having mastered the basics of rigging etc., I am currently practicing heaving to, reefing and arriving at the dock under sail only.
Great stuff to practice. Especially sail-out, sail-in. I don't care how many fast reaches someone can do out in the middle of a lake, if they motor to get there and motor back they're missing a lot of sailing skill development (that they might really want when their motor dies out there...).
...
All went well for the rest of the afternoon, until it was time to head back to the dock. This required crossing the lake (approx. 3-4 miles shore to shore). About midway through the crossing, an unexpected squall came through. Wind gusts were maybe bumping the 15MPH mark, causing the boat to heel beyond the 15-degree mark on my newly-installed heel gauge. Having read up on other posts, I recall folks talking about weather helm, and that 15-degrees was about the point where one needs to consider reducing the sail (further yet). Also recall that easing up on the main sheet is maybe not the thing to do (but so tempting).
First of all, "when in doubt, let it out" applies to the main sheet in terms of basic safety. With possible exceptions when you are about to go on the rocks or similar, and losing way is more dangerous than other consequences, letting the sheet out is a better strategy than getting knocked down.
The issue with easing the main sheet on an M15 is that you have no backstay, so forestay tension and thus jib luff tension depends somewhat on main sheet tension. If you slack the main sheet, your forestay and thus jib luff will slack some also, so you will lose power in the jib as well. Which might be a good thing, for the moment, in a brief strong gust. But if you are trying to go to windward it's a problem. I got to experience this once on Daniel Rich's M15.
1. I assume the smart thing to do would have been to reduce sail prior to the wind picking up (i.e., reef early), but how does one anticipate the unexpected?
If it's a brief passing squall or gust of a few moments, you can just luff along for a bit, as long as you are not in other danger from losing way.
As you learn to read the water & wind/sky at your location(s), you may be able to see the wind picking up significantly from a ways across the lake, more than you can yet. And then have a few moments to reef proactively.
2. Whereas my earlier reefing activity took place in calm waters, I have a difficult time envisioning doing this when winds are gusty and water is choppy. Is this something I just have to practice, starting out with calm conditions, and gradually working my way up to the 'hairier' conditions?
Yes, that's a good learning strategy. Heave to in order to reef - then you get to practice both. Assuming you have enough room to drift downwind for a few moments without going aground, that is. Which suggests a strategy of not sailing too close to a lee shore when you might need to heave to. Give yourself plenty of space.
It's possible to reef without heaving to once you've got it down and don't have to think it through. Head to wind, and quick get the reef in before you fall off too far. But until then, make it easier, heave to first. The gustier and choppier the conditions, the less time you will have to put in the reef if you are not hove to, the wind and waves will push you away from head to wind quicker. Also your reefing setup (lines cleats etc.) can make it easier, or harder, to put in a reef quickly.
3. Should I have dropped the head sail (115%)?
M15 sailors better to answer that...my guess would be if that kept you from being overpowered, yes. Sail on the main until the squall passes and then raise the jib again. The M17 does not sail so great on main alone, being a masthead rig and more jib-driven. But it does sail still. How about the M15?
4. What will happen beyond 15-degree of heel? Will she capsize? Here too, I recall folks talking about the boat 'stiffening' up, and sailing with the rail in the water. Being new to the boat, I simply do not know where the limits are, and certainly do not want to explore those being 2 miles of shore.
I think the info has been (from Dave S, Jerry, maybe others as well) that the M-boat hulls are optimal performers at about 15 degrees of heel. Meaning, most speed, least wetted surface.
But it won't capsize just from going beyond that - you'd have to get knocked down close to horizontal and have other things go wrong (sail digging into water, taking on lots of water, etc.) to actually capsize. You can heel quite a bit more and keep on sailing. It just takes some getting used to. Let her heel more than you're comfortable with, and see where she does 'stiffen up' (stops heeling more). As the heel increases, the sails catch less wind and the keel weight counters the heel more, which results in the 'stiffening up' at some point. You can always slack the mainsheet if it gets too scary, back off, try again. I still work on this...from sailing mostly un-ballasted dinghies, I have a reflex to not let a boat heel so much.
The video of David G that Rusty posted is great, you can see the gusts coming on the water and then heeling him over. He lets it go quite a ways before needing to round up. So you can get an idea of how far over the boat can heel and keep sailing, and/or recover easily. You can also see how when he does slack the mainsheet, the forestay/jib luff loses some tension.
Keep sailing! cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (11)
-
Alex Conley -
casioqv＠usermail.com -
Daniel Rich -
Dave Scobie -
Edward Epifani -
Ernst van Gulijk -
Jennifer Wood -
Jim Sadler -
John Schinnerer -
Mike Epp -
Rusty Knorr