Measured my "big" jib yesterday. Bag says it's the "cruising" genoa. Dimensions plugged into sail calculator say it's a ~150% jib. It has a fairly large window, not unusually high but fairly long, and, quite high up. Too high to be functional, seems to me. Sitting in the cockpit, the view through the window is of the tallest treetops on the shore (if there are tall trees on the shore...). And I'm pretty tall, so for anyone shorter the view would be even higher. Maybe really tall rigs would be spotted before collision...not small boats or mast-less boats though. I can't figure out why a window would be put so high. Anyone have something like this on their jib? Any ideas why the window so high? cheers, John S. -- ---------------------------------------- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design Member, The Sociocracy Consulting Group Governance by Design http://sociocracyconsulting.com 510-982-1334 ----------------------------------------
John, Sounds like the sail was made for a boat with no cockpit. I used some bass boat chairs with 6 inch cushions built in so I can face forward with my legs up on the seat and still have a back rest. In your case the extra 6 inches of height may let you see the flying bridge on an offshore fishing boat. The kind that like to bag marlin, tuna and small sailboats. Can you afford to cut the foot down about a foot to lower the window?? Call it a permanent reef point. I fly my jibs off a 12 inch bridle made of ss cable. All fit on the remaining forestay and not only foul the bow pulpit less but do allow a peek beneath the foot. This year I added a second snap shackle to the bridle so the bridle not only attaches to the jib tack but also to the forestay since the 12" bridal did tend to let the tack shift aft when I trimmed the jib really close hauled. In the forehead smacking department: My buddy who used to sail a Pearson 36 up and down the east coast suggested that the next time I bottom paint my boat I get some cayenne pepper and dump some in the paint. His experience with doing that allowed him to go almost four years between bottom jobs. Seems the little critters don't like Mexican food. Well I dumped a bottle of it into the bottom paint and did not test just a little of it on another surface, did not grind the cayenne pepper into cinnamon sized grains, thought the pepper would dissolve in the paint. Hence my first coat felt like non-skid. Good topsides, bad below the waterline. So after wet sanding the bottom paint to remove the rough texture while lying under the boat in a puddle of water (wet or dry sand paper used) I decided to strain the cayenne out of the paint. It is in the process of doing so very slowly due to the pepper clogging anything small enough to remove it from said very thick bottom paint.. I wonder how many drops of paint are in a gallon? Good luck with your projects. Fairwinds, Tom B. Monty 17, 1977 #258, in South Texas where the sun always shines. On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 4:17 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Measured my "big" jib yesterday. Bag says it's the "cruising" genoa. Dimensions plugged into sail calculator say it's a ~150% jib.
It has a fairly large window, not unusually high but fairly long, and, quite high up. Too high to be functional, seems to me. Sitting in the cockpit, the view through the window is of the tallest treetops on the shore (if there are tall trees on the shore...). And I'm pretty tall, so for anyone shorter the view would be even higher. Maybe really tall rigs would be spotted before collision...not small boats or mast-less boats though. I can't figure out why a window would be put so high.
Anyone have something like this on their jib? Any ideas why the window so high?
cheers, John S.
-- ---------------------------------------- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design Member, The Sociocracy Consulting Group Governance by Design http://sociocracyconsulting.com 510-982-1334 ----------------------------------------
i'm thinking Thomas has it right that the sail isn't for a M17. picture attached of where the window should be for Jerry's 17s using a 150% genoas. . :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 3:42 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
John, Sounds like the sail was made for a boat with no cockpit. I used some bass boat chairs with 6 inch cushions built in so I can face forward with my legs up on the seat and still have a back rest. In your case the extra 6 inches of height may let you see the flying bridge on an offshore fishing boat. The kind that like to bag marlin, tuna and small sailboats. Can you afford to cut the foot down about a foot to lower the window?? Call it a permanent reef point. I fly my jibs off a 12 inch bridle made of ss cable. All fit on the remaining forestay and not only foul the bow pulpit less but do allow a peek beneath the foot. This year I added a second snap shackle to the bridle so the bridle not only attaches to the jib tack but also to the forestay since the 12" bridal did tend to let the tack shift aft when I trimmed the jib really close hauled.
In the forehead smacking department: My buddy who used to sail a Pearson 36 up and down the east coast suggested that the next time I bottom paint my boat I get some cayenne pepper and dump some in the paint. His experience with doing that allowed him to go almost four years between bottom jobs. Seems the little critters don't like Mexican food. Well I dumped a bottle of it into the bottom paint and did not test just a little of it on another surface, did not grind the cayenne pepper into cinnamon sized grains, thought the pepper would dissolve in the paint. Hence my first coat felt like non-skid. Good topsides, bad below the waterline. So after wet sanding the bottom paint to remove the rough texture while lying under the boat in a puddle of water (wet or dry sand paper used) I decided to strain the cayenne out of the paint. It is in the process of doing so very slowly due to the pepper clogging anything small enough to remove it from said very thick bottom paint.. I wonder how many drops of paint are in a gallon?
Good luck with your projects. Fairwinds, Tom B. Monty 17, 1977 #258, in South Texas where the sun always shines.
On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 4:17 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Measured my "big" jib yesterday. Bag says it's the "cruising" genoa. Dimensions plugged into sail calculator say it's a ~150% jib.
It has a fairly large window, not unusually high but fairly long, and, quite high up. Too high to be functional, seems to me. Sitting in the cockpit, the view through the window is of the tallest treetops on the shore (if there are tall trees on the shore...). And I'm pretty tall, so for anyone shorter the view would be even higher. Maybe really tall rigs would be spotted before collision...not small boats or mast-less boats though. I can't figure out why a window would be put so high.
Anyone have something like this on their jib? Any ideas why the window so high?
cheers, John S.
Could it be up high so when the boat is heeled over 15 degrees or so and the rail is about to go under the window drops down to eye level......and that would be eye level from the high side? On Oct 25, 2016, at 4:17 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Measured my "big" jib yesterday. Bag says it's the "cruising" genoa. Dimensions plugged into sail calculator say it's a ~150% jib.
It has a fairly large window, not unusually high but fairly long, and, quite high up. Too high to be functional, seems to me. Sitting in the cockpit, the view through the window is of the tallest treetops on the shore (if there are tall trees on the shore...). And I'm pretty tall, so for anyone shorter the view would be even higher. Maybe really tall rigs would be spotted before collision...not small boats or mast-less boats though. I can't figure out why a window would be put so high.
Anyone have something like this on their jib? Any ideas why the window so high?
cheers, John S.
-- ---------------------------------------- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design Member, The Sociocracy Consulting Group Governance by Design http://sociocracyconsulting.com 510-982-1334 ----------------------------------------
A couple pix from Waldo lake showing the window in my 150 genny...one ghosting on a reach, the other wing & wing. That was one thought I had too...it would have to be heeled well over 15 degrees to get the rail close to the water, but sure, if it was way heeled over the window comes down...it would have to be pretty far in this case. Probably to the point where I should be downsizing the jib...! I could imagine Dave's thought, that it's not a standard M17 jib. The bag it's in has original hand written felt pen notation that it's the "cruising" genoa. It also has "[North]" written on it in that area, but it's not a North sails genoa, if that's what that is supposed to mean - or a Reggie Armstrong either IIRC, I'll have to look at the maker label again. It does match the dimensions pretty closely though. I have the PDF that someone shared some time ago, mast & rigging dimensions & weights. That is for a 2014 M17, with the forestay moved aft, but still, the 150 genoa measurements on that for luff, leach, and foot are all within a few inches of mine and the square footage within a few square feet. The window is more forward and higher than in the picture you posted Dave (might be . Other than that, shape looks much the same and dimensions are within inches. Maybe the window was put in after the fact, and/or it's not the original 150 but a matching size replacement...just makes me wonder, thanks for your various thoughts on the matter. cheers, John S. On 10/25/2016 05:25 PM, Howard Audsley wrote:
Could it be up high so when the boat is heeled over 15 degrees or so and the rail is about to go under the window drops down to eye level......and that would be eye level from the high side?
On Oct 25, 2016, at 4:17 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Measured my "big" jib yesterday. Bag says it's the "cruising" genoa. Dimensions plugged into sail calculator say it's a ~150% jib.
It has a fairly large window, not unusually high but fairly long, and, quite high up. Too high to be functional, seems to me. Sitting in the cockpit, the view through the window is of the tallest treetops on the shore (if there are tall trees on the shore...). And I'm pretty tall, so for anyone shorter the view would be even higher. Maybe really tall rigs would be spotted before collision...not small boats or mast-less boats though. I can't figure out why a window would be put so high.
Anyone have something like this on their jib? Any ideas why the window so high?
cheers, John S.
-- ---------------------------------------- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design Member, The Sociocracy Consulting Group Governance by Design http://sociocracyconsulting.com 510-982-1334 ----------------------------------------
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
None of my jibs have such a window, but if they did, it seems to me that is about where they should be. When running close to hull speed and heeled over, the foot and clew won't be that far off the water and a helmsman sitting on the high side will be raised up. You want to be able to see what is hiding behind that blind spot out on the horizon. I had a Tartan 37 slide across my bow once that I never knew was there and I doubt he knew I was there either. That was a bit scary. So a window like that would be nice to have. If memory serves, a genny like that in the range of 150 to 155 was intended to be used in winds up to about 12 knots or so.........just about the time you start to notice the occasional whitecap. Some will go well beyond that and will be heeled over to 20 degrees or beyond. Once you get into that range, the eye position of the helmsman relative to the window is going to be changing even more. On Oct 25, 2016, at 8:01 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
A couple pix from Waldo lake showing the window in my 150 genny...one ghosting on a reach, the other wing & wing.
That was one thought I had too...it would have to be heeled well over 15 degrees to get the rail close to the water, but sure, if it was way heeled over the window comes down...it would have to be pretty far in this case. Probably to the point where I should be downsizing the jib...!
I could imagine Dave's thought, that it's not a standard M17 jib. The bag it's in has original hand written felt pen notation that it's the "cruising" genoa. It also has "[North]" written on it in that area, but it's not a North sails genoa, if that's what that is supposed to mean - or a Reggie Armstrong either IIRC, I'll have to look at the maker label again.
It does match the dimensions pretty closely though. I have the PDF that someone shared some time ago, mast & rigging dimensions & weights. That is for a 2014 M17, with the forestay moved aft, but still, the 150 genoa measurements on that for luff, leach, and foot are all within a few inches of mine and the square footage within a few square feet.
The window is more forward and higher than in the picture you posted Dave (might be . Other than that, shape looks much the same and dimensions are within inches.
Maybe the window was put in after the fact, and/or it's not the original 150 but a matching size replacement...just makes me wonder, thanks for your various thoughts on the matter.
cheers, John S.
On 10/25/2016 05:25 PM, Howard Audsley wrote:
Could it be up high so when the boat is heeled over 15 degrees or so and the rail is about to go under the window drops down to eye level......and that would be eye level from the high side?
On Oct 25, 2016, at 4:17 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Measured my "big" jib yesterday. Bag says it's the "cruising" genoa. Dimensions plugged into sail calculator say it's a ~150% jib.
It has a fairly large window, not unusually high but fairly long, and, quite high up. Too high to be functional, seems to me. Sitting in the cockpit, the view through the window is of the tallest treetops on the shore (if there are tall trees on the shore...). And I'm pretty tall, so for anyone shorter the view would be even higher. Maybe really tall rigs would be spotted before collision...not small boats or mast-less boats though. I can't figure out why a window would be put so high.
Anyone have something like this on their jib? Any ideas why the window so high?
cheers, John S.
-- ---------------------------------------- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design Member, The Sociocracy Consulting Group Governance by Design http://sociocracyconsulting.com 510-982-1334 ----------------------------------------
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com <keith-04.jpg><p9280118.jpg>
Approaching Tall Ships or freighters? Beautiful lake!!! WOW Tim northern Lake Michigan On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:54 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
None of my jibs have such a window, but if they did, it seems to me that is about where they should be. When running close to hull speed and heeled over, the foot and clew won't be that far off the water and a helmsman sitting on the high side will be raised up. You want to be able to see what is hiding behind that blind spot out on the horizon. I had a Tartan 37 slide across my bow once that I never knew was there and I doubt he knew I was there either. That was a bit scary. So a window like that would be nice to have.
If memory serves, a genny like that in the range of 150 to 155 was intended to be used in winds up to about 12 knots or so.........just about the time you start to notice the occasional whitecap. Some will go well beyond that and will be heeled over to 20 degrees or beyond. Once you get into that range, the eye position of the helmsman relative to the window is going to be changing even more.
On Oct 25, 2016, at 8:01 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
A couple pix from Waldo lake showing the window in my 150 genny...one ghosting on a reach, the other wing & wing.
That was one thought I had too...it would have to be heeled well over 15 degrees to get the rail close to the water, but sure, if it was way heeled over the window comes down...it would have to be pretty far in this case. Probably to the point where I should be downsizing the jib...!
I could imagine Dave's thought, that it's not a standard M17 jib. The bag it's in has original hand written felt pen notation that it's the "cruising" genoa. It also has "[North]" written on it in that area, but it's not a North sails genoa, if that's what that is supposed to mean - or a Reggie Armstrong either IIRC, I'll have to look at the maker label again.
It does match the dimensions pretty closely though. I have the PDF that someone shared some time ago, mast & rigging dimensions & weights. That is for a 2014 M17, with the forestay moved aft, but still, the 150 genoa measurements on that for luff, leach, and foot are all within a few inches of mine and the square footage within a few square feet.
The window is more forward and higher than in the picture you posted Dave (might be . Other than that, shape looks much the same and dimensions are within inches.
Maybe the window was put in after the fact, and/or it's not the original 150 but a matching size replacement...just makes me wonder, thanks for your various thoughts on the matter.
cheers, John S.
On 10/25/2016 05:25 PM, Howard Audsley wrote:
Could it be up high so when the boat is heeled over 15 degrees or so and the rail is about to go under the window drops down to eye level......and that would be eye level from the high side?
On Oct 25, 2016, at 4:17 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Measured my "big" jib yesterday. Bag says it's the "cruising" genoa. Dimensions plugged into sail calculator say it's a ~150% jib.
It has a fairly large window, not unusually high but fairly long, and, quite high up. Too high to be functional, seems to me. Sitting in the cockpit, the view through the window is of the tallest treetops on the shore (if there are tall trees on the shore...). And I'm pretty tall, so for anyone shorter the view would be even higher. Maybe really tall rigs would be spotted before collision...not small boats or mast-less boats though. I can't figure out why a window would be put so high.
Anyone have something like this on their jib? Any ideas why the window so high?
cheers, John S.
-- ---------------------------------------- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design Member, The Sociocracy Consulting Group Governance by Design http://sociocracyconsulting.com 510-982-1334 ----------------------------------------
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com <keith-04.jpg><p9280118.jpg>
On 10/26/2016 1:56 PM, Timothy JarviMD wrote: The racing boys can have their optimum aerodynamic efficiency with their deck-sweeper head sails (which is why they have a lookout sitting in the bow pulpit), but I'll gladly sacrifice optimum performance for good visibility. If the visibility deteriorates, and you are out sailing among the big boys, do you want to get run over and sunk by barges being towed far behind a tug.... that you can't see? I don't. Connie
Approaching Tall Ships or freighters?
Beautiful lake!!! WOW
Tim northern Lake Michigan
On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:54 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
None of my jibs have such a window, but if they did, it seems to me that is about where they should be. When running close to hull speed and heeled over, the foot and clew won't be that far off the water and a helmsman sitting on the high side will be raised up. You want to be able to see what is hiding behind that blind spot out on the horizon. I had a Tartan 37 slide across my bow once that I never knew was there and I doubt he knew I was there either. That was a bit scary. So a window like that would be nice to have.
If memory serves, a genny like that in the range of 150 to 155 was intended to be used in winds up to about 12 knots or so.........just about the time you start to notice the occasional whitecap. Some will go well beyond that and will be heeled over to 20 degrees or beyond. Once you get into that range, the eye position of the helmsman relative to the window is going to be changing even more.
On Oct 25, 2016, at 8:01 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
A couple pix from Waldo lake showing the window in my 150 genny...one ghosting on a reach, the other wing & wing. That was one thought I had too...it would have to be heeled well over 15 degrees to get the rail close to the water, but sure, if it was way heeled over the window comes down...it would have to be pretty far in this case. Probably to the point where I should be downsizing the jib...! I could imagine Dave's thought, that it's not a standard M17 jib. The bag it's in has original hand written felt pen notation that it's the "cruising" genoa. It also has "[North]" written on it in that area, but it's not a North sails genoa, if that's what that is supposed to mean - or a Reggie Armstrong either IIRC, I'll have to look at the maker label again. It does match the dimensions pretty closely though. I have the PDF that someone shared some time ago, mast & rigging dimensions & weights. That is for a 2014 M17, with the forestay moved aft, but still, the 150 genoa measurements on that for luff, leach, and foot are all within a few inches of mine and the square footage within a few square feet. The window is more forward and higher than in the picture you posted Dave (might be . Other than that, shape looks much the same and dimensions are within inches. Maybe the window was put in after the fact, and/or it's not the original 150 but a matching size replacement...just makes me wonder, thanks for your various thoughts on the matter. cheers, John S.
On 10/25/2016 05:25 PM, Howard Audsley wrote:
Could it be up high so when the boat is heeled over 15 degrees or so and the rail is about to go under the window drops down to eye level......and that would be eye level from the high side?
On Oct 25, 2016, at 4:17 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Measured my "big" jib yesterday. Bag says it's the "cruising" genoa. Dimensions plugged into sail calculator say it's a ~150% jib.
It has a fairly large window, not unusually high but fairly long, and, quite high up. Too high to be functional, seems to me. Sitting in the cockpit, the view through the window is of the tallest treetops on the shore (if there are tall trees on the shore...). And I'm pretty tall, so for anyone shorter the view would be even higher. Maybe really tall rigs would be spotted before collision...not small boats or mast-less boats though. I can't figure out why a window would be put so high. Anyone have something like this on their jib? Any ideas why the window so high? cheers, John S.
-- ---------------------------------------- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design Member, The Sociocracy Consulting Group Governance by Design http://sociocracyconsulting.com 510-982-1334 ----------------------------------------
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com <keith-04.jpg><p9280118.jpg>
I want all 5.6 knots when I hit them! Jazz On Oct 26, 2016 3:15 PM, "Conbert Benneck" <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/26/2016 1:56 PM, Timothy JarviMD wrote:
The racing boys can have their optimum aerodynamic efficiency with their deck-sweeper head sails (which is why they have a lookout sitting in the bow pulpit), but I'll gladly sacrifice optimum performance for good visibility.
If the visibility deteriorates, and you are out sailing among the big boys, do you want to get run over and sunk by barges being towed far behind a tug.... that you can't see? I don't.
Connie
Approaching Tall Ships or freighters?
Beautiful lake!!! WOW
Tim northern Lake Michigan
On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:54 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net
wrote:
None of my jibs have such a window, but if they did, it seems to me that
is about where they should be. When running close to hull speed and heeled over, the foot and clew won't be that far off the water and a helmsman sitting on the high side will be raised up. You want to be able to see what is hiding behind that blind spot out on the horizon. I had a Tartan 37 slide across my bow once that I never knew was there and I doubt he knew I was there either. That was a bit scary. So a window like that would be nice to have.
If memory serves, a genny like that in the range of 150 to 155 was intended to be used in winds up to about 12 knots or so.........just about the time you start to notice the occasional whitecap. Some will go well beyond that and will be heeled over to 20 degrees or beyond. Once you get into that range, the eye position of the helmsman relative to the window is going to be changing even more.
On Oct 25, 2016, at 8:01 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
A couple pix from Waldo lake showing the window in my 150 genny...one
ghosting on a reach, the other wing & wing.
That was one thought I had too...it would have to be heeled well over 15
degrees to get the rail close to the water, but sure, if it was way heeled over the window comes down...it would have to be pretty far in this case. Probably to the point where I should be downsizing the jib...!
I could imagine Dave's thought, that it's not a standard M17 jib. The
bag it's in has original hand written felt pen notation that it's the "cruising" genoa. It also has "[North]" written on it in that area, but it's not a North sails genoa, if that's what that is supposed to mean - or a Reggie Armstrong either IIRC, I'll have to look at the maker label again.
It does match the dimensions pretty closely though. I have the PDF that
someone shared some time ago, mast & rigging dimensions & weights. That is for a 2014 M17, with the forestay moved aft, but still, the 150 genoa measurements on that for luff, leach, and foot are all within a few inches of mine and the square footage within a few square feet.
The window is more forward and higher than in the picture you posted
Dave (might be . Other than that, shape looks much the same and dimensions are within inches.
Maybe the window was put in after the fact, and/or it's not the original
150 but a matching size replacement...just makes me wonder, thanks for your various thoughts on the matter.
cheers, John S.
On 10/25/2016 05:25 PM, Howard Audsley wrote:
Could it be up high so when the boat is heeled over 15 degrees or so
and the rail is about to go under the window drops down to eye level......and that would be eye level from the high side?
On Oct 25, 2016, at 4:17 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Measured my "big" jib yesterday. Bag says it's the "cruising" genoa.
Dimensions plugged into sail calculator say it's a ~150% jib.
It has a fairly large window, not unusually high but fairly long, and,
quite high up. Too high to be functional, seems to me. Sitting in the
cockpit, the view through the window is of the tallest treetops on the shore (if there are tall trees on the shore...). And I'm pretty tall, so for anyone shorter the view would be even higher. Maybe really tall rigs would be spotted before collision...not small boats or mast-less boats though. I can't figure out why a window would be put so high.
Anyone have something like this on their jib? Any ideas why the window
so high?
cheers,
John S.
-- ---------------------------------------- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design Member, The Sociocracy Consulting Group Governance by Design http://sociocracyconsulting.com 510-982-1334 ----------------------------------------
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com <keith-04.jpg><p9280118.jpg>
participants (7)
-
Conbert Benneck -
Dave Scobie -
Howard Audsley -
Jazzy -
John Schinnerer -
Thomas Buzzi -
Timothy JarviMD